---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  seeking "splits" (ThomasM923)
  GFCI tripping (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Semi-pro roller mill (JohnT6020)
  Large yeast storage experiment  at  t=3 weeks ("Dave Whitman")
  Re:  Anderson Valley Hop Ottin IPA (John Murphy)
  Food Sealer ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: food sealer (Jim DiPalma)
  RE:MiniKegs ("M. Przytarski")
  Gobs of Honey (Paul Ward)
  Re: Mead Some Questions Answered (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Bugs (Jeff Renner)
  Carbon Monoxide (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Big Bend Brew-Off '99 ("Roberts, Ned")
  Seasons Greetings! (pbabcock)
  RE: Cheap Scale (Doug Kerfoot)
  yeast storage (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Some Mead Questions Answered (Ted McIrvine)
  Minikegs (Ted McIrvine)
  CO, Fruit Flies (Paul Niebergall)
  Vinegar, Mini Kegs and Adjusting Mills (Dan Listermann)
  Re: Midwest Homebrewer of the Year? (Joel_Plutchak)
  bugs, CO, and frozen carboys ("silent bob")
  yet more mills ("George De Piro")
  Bottle conditioning, bottle headspace, and CO2 levels ("Dave Humes")
  Seal-A-Mealer ("Michael J. Dale)
  Christmas idea ("Val J. Lipscomb")
  Under da hood (Al Korzonas)
  vinegar (William Frazier)
  Grain for barley wine (William Graham)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 00:43:24 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: seeking "splits"

About 18 years ago I lived in Syracuse, NY. I remember a couple of brands of
beer that were available in little 7-8 oz. bottles; the bottle size
mysteriously refered to as "splits". One brand was Old Vienna, a Canadian
import, and the other was Matt's. I was wondering if anyone knows if either
brand is still available as "splits". They would be great bottles for
barleywine or old ale.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ


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Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 21:54:09 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: GFCI tripping

Richard Johnson <ricjohnson at SURRY.NET> writes that his beer cooler is
tripping his GFCI.  One GFCI that I installed had a comment in the
instructions to the effect that it should not be used with appliances that
leak current to ground (duh) such as refrigerators with
condensation-preventing door heaters.  Possibly this is your problem?  I'd
bet Forrest could give some advice on disconnecting same.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:00:19 EST
From: JohnT6020 at aol.com
Subject: Semi-pro roller mill

Can anyone lead me to a source of a semi-pro grain roller mill, that is, a
motor driven mill with one to three HP drive.  I came across one in a San
Diego malt shop just like the one I would like to have.  This one was made by
C.S.Bell Co; but, when I contacted that firm they said they had discontinued
making roller mills.  I contacted a local animal feed store that had a roller
mill for processing farmer's grain.  Unfortunately it was ten HP and I could
not find a maker's name on it . . . covered by shroud that I did not dare ask
the owner to remove just to satisfy me.

73,
JET = John E. Thompson
johnt6020 at aol.com


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:04:48 -0500
From: "Dave Whitman" <dwhitman at fast.net>
Subject: Large yeast storage experiment  at  t=3 weeks

I'm carrying out a large experiment to compare storing yeast under sterile
DI water and two salt solutions (NaCl, KH2PO4) that are intended to minimize
osmotic shock to the yeast while optionally controlling pH as well. I'm
studying two yeast strains in each medium: Wyeast 1968 ale and Wyeast 2272
lager.

The experiment will run for at least 6 months, but I will periodically
report results as they come in.  Today I've got viability data at t = 3
weeks:

yeast        DI            NaCl          KH2PO4
ale       73% +/- 15%    92% +/- 12%   90% +/- 18%
lager     59% +/- 14%    29% +/- 14%   52% +/- 16%

For the ale yeast, there is a strong suggestion that both salts are giving
better viability, but the scatter in the data is too high to be 95%
confident that the difference is real.

NaCl seems to be a disaster for the lager yeast; the precipitous drop in
viability is statistically significant.  Any difference for the lager yeast
between DI water and KH2PO4 is lost in the noise.

The lager yeast has also has significantly lower overall viability when
compared to the ale yeast.  This might be inherant in the two strains, but
could also be an artifact of selection - the lager culture was freshly
purchased at the start of the experiment, but the ale yeast has been
maintained under sterile DI water with periodic reculture for 4 years so
that storage-intolerant cells could have been weeded out.

Rather than take up more HBD bandwidth, I've posted full experimental
details at:
http://www.users.fast.net/~dwhitman/yeast/

Given the differences I'm observing between the two yeasts, it'd be very
interesting to expand this experiment to additional strains.  If anyone
would like to join in the effort, I'd welcome collaborators.

- --
Dave Whitman
dwhitman at fast.net
Hunched over a microscope near Philadelphia (somewhat East of Jeff Renner)



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 08:27:39 -0500
From: John Murphy <jbm at ll.mit.edu>
Subject: Re:  Anderson Valley Hop Ottin IPA

Colin K. (colink at wenet.net) writes:

>Can anyone give me any information on recipe formulation for Anderson
>Valley Hop Ottin IPA. I am particularly interested in the hop selection.
>I heard from a sometimes reliable source the dry hops are columbus which

A couple of years ago (before the IPA was bottled), I made it up to
Boonville to visit the brewery and Buckhorn Saloon. I remember being
told there was Columbus in the boil. I think it's all Columbus,
including dry hopping. I recently had some on tap at the Toronado in S.F.
and it was one hop blast.
Cheers


John Murphy
jbm at ll.mit.edu




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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:41:09 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Food Sealer

Jay's looking for a way to seal O2 barrier bags.  Simpler than that is mason
jars (or mayonaise jars or whatever).  They're O2 (and just about everything
barrier)  and you can flush them with CO2 and close easier than buying and
sealing plastic bags (IMHO).  If you don't have mason jars now, buy pasta
sauce that come in mason jars and keep the jars.  The lids can be reused for
this application.

Dave Houseman


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:50:28 -0500
From: Jim DiPalma <dipalma at omtool.com>
Subject: RE: food sealer

Hi All,

Jay Spies asks about food sealers:

>Anyone have any idea where I can get one, and not have to pay $150 like
the
>one that is used in my local brew shop??  Anyone have one they'd like
to
>sell that's not trashed??  The only ones I can find are those
"Eurosealer"
>things that make a ridiculous little seal about as big as a staple.

I bought one from Walmart-online (http://www.wal-mart.com/) a few months
ago, it's called the Deni Freshlock Turboseal Food Vacuum Sealer. It's
got three heated wires, two for making a double seal, the third is a
cutting wire that can be selectively disabled. It's designed to be used
with a roll of polyethylene bags, the cutting wire doesn't quite cut
through the metallic O2 barrier bags I get from Hoptech, but the unit
does make a very good seal.

It also has a vacuum pump - I found it a little tricky to orient the bag
correctly at first, there's a little gizmo about 1" long that has to go
between the two halves of the bag, the rest of the bag has to lie flat
against a foam strip to form a seal. Once I got the hang of it, the
vacuum unit worked well, sucks all that nasty air right out of the bag.
Since I'm an Anal Brewer(tm), I also purge the bag with CO2 before using
the vacuum, just to be sure I've removed as much O2 as possible.

Operating the unit is fairly idiot-proof, a feature I always look for
:-). Orient the bag, press down lightly on the lid of the unit. You can
hear the vacuum pump start up, when a vacuum has been acheived, an idiot
light goes on. Press down a bit harder and the sealing/cutting wires are
activated. When a seal is acheived, another idiot light goes on, you're
done. Simple enough, but the unit even comes with a training video. :-)

Cost is $54.95, plus $3 shipping. There is also a $24.95 version that
doesn't have the vacuum pump, which may be a viable option if you have a
CO2 tank and can purge the bag before sealing.

Standard disclaimer, no affiliation, yadda yadda.

Cheers,
Jim


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:12:30 -0600
From: "M. Przytarski" <m.r.p. at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: RE:MiniKegs

>1) I saw several messages ion the archives saying not to use bleach to
>clean them because of oxidation of the plastic interior.  Is this true, 
and
>if not bleach what can you use to sanitize them?

Idphour (I think that's how you spell it) works best.  I have been using 
mini-kegs for 3 years now and that's all I use.  Also here is a GOOD tip 
you need for Mini's that I learned the hard way.  After use, clean well and 
then stand vertical in your stove (so the hole is up) and heat in the stove 
at 150-200 deg for an hour or so, and leave them in until cool.  This 
removes all the water from inside the kegs as it turns it to steam which 
escapes through the hole.  If you leave water in them you will discover 
that mold grows as well as rust.  I lost 2 Mini's to rust before I figured 
this trick out, not to mention that mold is a real pain to get out of the 
damm things.

>2) Saw several posts that said most kegs use 2-4 cartridges to dispense
>entire keg, Is there a better way? as they are expensive.  Like maybe a
>regulated co2 tank?

If its taking 2 to use you have a problem, bad seal or such.  Mine use one 
and I can keep them in the fridge for up to a week with that one. (But I 
usually tap a MINI for get together, and therefore the keg never lasts 
longer than a day anyway).  I suppose if it was longer than a week it would 
require 2, but I close the valve when not in use and such so I never had to 
use 2.

Hope this helps.

Mike






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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:10:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Gobs of Honey

The recent series of posts concerning the use of honey in beers has
given me the impetus to go a little wild.

I was recently given 5 pounds of native honey.  I don't want to make
a mead, and at the rate I use honey this is enough for my next 3
incarnations.

I was thinking of a honey/wheat double or triple something or other.
My rough thoughts are along the lines of 6 lbs. wheat malt, 4 pounds
of pale malt and the 5 pounds of honey.  I've used honey twice in the
past (though never in this quantity).  The first ale came out very
dry, the second onee came out with some residual honey aroma and
sweetness.  My understanding is that honey is almost completely
fermentable, although it will take a while to ferment out.  I'm not 
really looking to devleop a strong honey profile, just free up some
space in the cupboards.
 
With this in mind, I am looking for suggestions as to a hopping
schedule.  Hop for the grain content only, or should I make some
allowance for sweetness from the honey to balance?  Also, should I
use a standard malt ale yeast or one of the wheat yeasts? Suggestions
gladly accepted.

A little bird let me know that I can expect a 40 quart kettle under
the tree this christmas.  This pretty much wraps up all my basic
needs, but does present a new problem.  Due to some unfortunate
experiences concerning wort, electric kitchen range, and momentary
inattention I have been banished to the deck when it comes to
boiling.  When I boiled a concentrated wort in my 28 qt. kettle I
would carry it in to the kitchen sink (double basin) and run my
imersion chiller there.  I don't think I want to carry a full volume
of boiling wort into the house with snow & ice on the bottom of my
shoes <<shudder>>.  My garden hose is currently frozen into it's
winter coil and will stay that way until April.  Is natual cooling of 
about 6 gallons of boiling wort to pitching temps something that
can be done within a reasonable amount of time when the temperature is
zero or below, or should I just buy another garden hose?

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:33:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Mead Some Questions Answered

"Mike Key" <flakeys at ibm.net>, whose web site is
http://www.homestead.com/chicagogangsters/Key.html, writes:

>I'm attempting my fist mead soon.

Must be a Chicago gangster thing. ;-)

Jeff

PS  I'll leave the answers to the mead questions to someone who knows mead.

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 09:59:22 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Bugs

rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) has weevils in his grain.

I can't believe he passed up an opportunity for such a slamdunk pun:

>I notice about a dozen weevils

>(see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil)

One of the advantages of a cooler climate is that bugs don't grow as well.
So far, I haven't had any, even in two year old malt.  Once they get
established (confused flour beetles and India meal moths are other grain
pests), they can be hell to get rid of.  If you have room to freeze the
grain, that should kill the adults and larvae, although not the eggs.  That
works for the moths, at least.  I have a problem with them in the kitchen
pantry, but so far not in the nearby bakery or the basement malt storage.
Pheromone traps work pretty well for these moths.  I get them from Gardens
Alive (812-537-8650, yadda, yadda).

I think you need to contact your supplier so he can try eradication.  In
Michigan, at least, food establishments (including brewery suppliers) are
inspected regularly by the Dept. of Agriculture, which definitely frowns on
such infestations.

See no wee..., no, I'll refrain, it was Ron's.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:46:46 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Carbon Monoxide

Scott Murman wrote asking about the impact of Silent Bob'e post on
dwellers of smoky pubs: 

Silent Bob wrote:
> The level needs to be multiplied by the time of exposure to 
> really get an Idea of the risk.  A low level for a long period of time 
> is just as dangerous as a high level for a short period of time. 
> Hemoglobin, which carries oxygen in the blood, binds irreversibly with 
> CO.  This means that that O2 carrying capacity is permanantly lost until 
> that hemoglobin is replaced.  The life span of a red blood cell is about 
> 120 days.  This means that the CO from one expsosure is not completely 
> eliminated for 120 days, and the effect is cumulative.

I don't believe this is quite correct. CO binding to haemoglobin is NOT
irreversible. If it were then this, coupled with the relatively long
halflife of haemoglobin would mean that nearly all of a chronicaly-exposed
individual's haemoglobin would end up in the form of carboxyhaemoglobin
resulting in a quick death. CO forms a coordination complex with the haem
iron where oxygen would normally be bound. It is not forming a covalent
bond but its affinity for the haem iron is some 100-250 times that of
oxygen. Treatment for severe cases of CO poisoning involves artificial 
ventillation with 2 atm of O2 which hastens haemoglobin's conversion back
to oxyhaemoglobin. 

As far as effects of second hand smoke on pub workers/denziens I suppose
one way to look at it is to compare the patron's exposure to that of the
smokers themselves. Mainstream cigarette smoke contains about 2-6% CO. For
your average smoker mean carboxyhaemoglobin levels are about 2.5% compared
to levels for a "normal" (nonsmoker) individual of about 0.4%  CO-haem
levels up to 5% do not usually result in clinical symptoms. Thus, since
smokers themselves are not expected to show any gross symptoms of CO
poisoning it is hard to imagine those exposed to second hand smoke to show
any such symptoms. Please note however that this certainly does not apply
to symptoms resulting from other cigarette constituents such as irritation
from particulates, exacerbation of allergies, asthma or other  lung
ailments, not to mention all the nasty carcinogens present in cigarette
smoke! All in all it would appear that as far as cigarette smoke goes CO
is the LEAST of your worries...

Sorry for the (nonbrewing) off-topic post.

 -Alan Meeker



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:50:05 -0500
From: "Roberts, Ned" <robertsn at fdhc.state.fl.us>
Subject: Big Bend Brew-Off '99

The North Florida Brewers League of Tallahassee, FL is hosting the Big Bend
Brew-Off '99, an AHA sanctioned competition on January 16, 1999 at The
Buckhead Brewery & Grill.

Entry forms can be obtained by contacting Ned Roberts at nedr at tfn.net or
(850) 562-7105.  

Rules may be viewed at "www.freenet.tlh.fl.us/~northflo".

Open to all AHA styles, entry fee is $5.00, along with three bottles of your
finest homebrew.  Deadline for submitting entries is January 14, 1999.

Any one interested in judging at the competition should contact John Larsen,
Judge Director at jlarsen at nxus.com or (850) 385-1666.

Happy Holidays from the Big Bend Brew-Off '99 staff.

Ned Roberts, Competition Organizer
nedr at tfn.net



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:43:53 -0500 (EST)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Seasons Greetings!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Wishing you all the most Blessed and Merry Christmas; Happy (Hoppy?),
Healthy and Prosperous New Year. (And Peaceful, Happy Holidays to all
whose holidays this season do not list amongst those noted.)

During this Holiday Season, let's look out for each other, ourselves and
our loved ones by savoring the flavor responsibly. Maybe as a special gift
to your particular group of friends, you volunteer to be the designated
driver at a get together this year? There can be no greater gesture
towards those you hold as friends and family than to look toward their
safety!

Wishing you all the best this Holiday Season! Cheers! (Now where'd I put
that recipe for egg-nog porter?!?)

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:49:34 -0500
From: Doug Kerfoot <dkerfoot at macatawa.org>
Subject: RE: Cheap Scale

Kelly C. Heflin Asks about cheap scales:

Having been previously tortured by dealing with cheap scales, follow my
advise and just say no!

Now I use volume rather than weight.  Even under good storage conditions

your malt will pick up moisture from the air.  If I am recalling
correctly, the weight can change for a given volume by as much as 20%!
And since most cheap (under $25) scales are so inaccurate, unreliable
and just plain hard to use, your recipes could potentially be off by 30
or 40%.  (IMHO)   So, borrow a friend's or the local homebrew shop's
scale and mark a measuring cup or other vessel at the one or two lb
level from a newly opened bag of grain.  As the grain absorbs moisture,
the volume and your results, will stay the same.  Not only will it be
more accurate, it is MUCH easier and faster to measure as well.

I use primarily Durst Pils malt and Munton's Pale malts and I haven't
seen a significant enough difference between them, when freshly opened,
to warrant separate measuring cups.  After I had done this for about a
year, I read Greg Noonen's recommendation in Brewing Lager Beer for
using volumetric measuring.  He agrees with me, so he must be right.  :)

 -Doug Kerfoot
"I like beer"





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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:56:52 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: yeast storage

While we're on the topic thought I'd throw in my 10,000 lira's worth: 

I have several yeasts I've stored for over a year now on the surface of
YPD slants in the refrigerator. I've just struck them all out onto petri 
plates to check how they are doing and they all look fine in that they all
produced plenty of yeast colonies. While this "experiment" wasn't
quantitative by any means it seems clear to me that brewers yeast stores
well under these conditions, at least ca one year. The strains were: 
1056	1098	3068	1084	1272	2565 and EC1118.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________





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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:17:47 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Some Mead Questions Answered

It sounds as if you want to use clean yeast (some mead-makers love wild
yeast) and DME would be a better culturing media.  For a wild yeast, a
mixture of apple juice and DME works well.  The recipe may be
recommending fruit juice for the acidity.

There are a variety of ways to acidify mead.  A powdered blend of
tartaric and other acids is available and can help a plain mead.  If you
use fruit, this will acidify it without help, but requires much longer
aging.

Mead is extremely susceptible to oxidation except during the period
between cooling and fermentation.  Therefore I prefer to age mead for a
longer time (3-4 months) in the fermenter and bottle a finished product
that will be drinkable sooner.  I use oxygen absorbing caps, which
aren't that costly.

You imply that you are going to boil your mead.  I merely heat it to 140
for about 15 minutes and top it off with cold filtered-water.  The meads
that I've boiled lose some of the honey aroma and flavor.

Finally, Sparkaloid (tm) is the best mead clarifier I've ever used.

Ted McIrvine
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com
> 
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:54:41 -0500
> From: "Mike & Lynn Key" <flakeys at ibm.net>
> Subject: Mead Some Questions Answered
> 
> I'm attempting my fist mead soon. It's a simple recipe: 15 lbs. honey, acid
> blend, yeast energizer, Irish Moss, and Wyeast Sweet Mead Yeast (#3184).
> Questions: 1. To make a yeast starter the yeast package says to add the
> yeast to diluted fruit juice. What kind of juice? How much diluted? Is it OK
> to use DME instead? 2. Should I use my Oxygenator to aerate the must once it
> is in the carboy? 3. Is mead subject to oxidation due to hot side aeration?
> 4. Is it critical, as with beer, to quickly cool the must? Should I use my
> wort chiller? 4. My recipe calls for 6 months of bottle aging. Should I cap
> with oxygen absorbing caps? Thanks.
> - ----
> Cordially, R. Michael Key


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:22:19 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Minikegs

Minikegs were the worst brewing investment I've ever made.  A complete
outfit for stainless kegs only runs $10-20 more.  My minikegs leak, they
are flimsy, and the cartridges are expensive.  (I've spent more on
cartridges for kegging 4 batches in minikegs than I have for CO2 for
about 30 batches in kegs.)  A regular keg can be chilled in a pail of
ice, so even the size advantage of a minikeg is an illusion.

Ted McIrvine
> 
> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 10:33:09 -0500
> From: "Stuart Baunoch" <sbaunoch at homeruns.com>
> Subject: MiniKegs
> 
> I am looking to buy a set of minikegs. Does anyone know if BrewHaHa has a
> web site? If so what is the address?  If not can I get a number to call ?
> 
> 1) I saw several messages ion the archives saying not to use bleach to
> clean them because of oxidation of the plastic interior.  Is this true, and
> if not bleach what can you use to sanatize them?
> 
> 2) Saw several posts that said most kegs use 2-4 cartridges to dispense
> entire keg, Is there a better way? as they are expensive.  Like mabey a
> regulated co2 tank?
> 
> Stuart Baunoch, Sturbridge, Massachusettes
> sbaunoch at homeruns.com
> Inventory Control Specialist, Hannafords Homeruns


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:29:59 -0600
From: Paul Niebergall <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: CO, Fruit Flies

Silent Bob writes:

>As for this thread on Carbon Monoxide:  I do not know off the top
>of my  head what safe exposure limits are, but some important points
>need to be made.  The level needs to be multiplied by the time of
>exposure to really get an Idea of the risk.  A low level for a long
>period of time is just as dangerous as a high level for a short period
>of time.

In case anyone was wondering, the National Institute for Occupational
Safety and Health (NIOSH) considers 1200 ppm of CO to be
*Immediately Dangerous to Life or Health*.  The recommended exposure
limit (REL) is 35 ppm.  This means a worker can breath 35 ppm CO for
up to a 10-hour workday during a 40-hour workweek.  A ceiling level
of 200 ppm is listed which means a level of 200 ppm should not be
exceeded at any time.  As Silent Bob indicates, the 35 ppm REL is a
time weighted average value.  So theoretically, since a brew session
is much shorter than a 50-hour work week, one can breath levels higher
than 35 ppm and less than 200 ppm with no ill effects.  That said, a
few discalimers apply.  Do not try breathing these levels unless you
have confirmed and understand the information  posted above.  If
you need help, hire a professional industrial hygienist or a toxicologist.
It is not my fault if you turn blue.  Also, please buy a CO meter.
They are cheap and easy to obtain (Wally World stocks several models)


Regarding fruit flies, Rod wrote:

>I am afraid that if I found a fruit fly in my starter, I would start over 
or
>use a fresh yeast pack and forgo the starter completely.  Fruit flies are 
>a primary carrier of wild yeast and your starter would have been 
>heartily contaminated.  You probably have a bit of acetic acid in your 
>beer, too.

I think Rod is missing the point of the fruit fly post.  The fact that the
Fruit Fly Bitter won third place is *proof* that at least in this one 
case,
the fruit fly was not a *primary carrier of wild yeast* nor was the 
starter
*heartily contaminated*.  Aside from speculation, we have yet to see much 
in the way of actual proof that fruit flies have caused a contaminated 
batch of beer.

Brew on,

Paul Niebergall

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 11:46:41 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Vinegar, Mini Kegs and Adjusting Mills

Keith chattsworth writes:
<Planning my next brew and  Id like to save a few gallons to make some 
malt
vinegar. >

I have never seriously tried to make malt vinegar, but  I have made some
great mead vinegar.  You have to make the wine / beer first.  6% alcohol 
is
supposed to give the right amount of acid.  Spirits can also be diluted 
to
make vinegar.  I made scotch vinegar once.  


The cluture is called "mother of vinegar."  The directions tell you to
gradually increase the volume by doubling or so.  I recommend this.  When
 I
tried to cut corners I got poorer results ( contamination if you can
believe it ).  


The fermentation requires oxygen.  The best way is to use a wide mouth 
jar
and cover it with a paper towel held in place with a rubber band.   A 
great
jar is one of those "sun tea" jars.  They have a very wide mouth and a
spigot so you can draw off clear vinegar without disturbing the sediment 
or
the mother.

It is not necessary to cluture the mother.  You just drain most of the
vinegar off and refill with more wine / beer.

Stuart Baunoch writes about mini kegs:

<1) I saw several messages ion the archives saying not to use bleach to
clean them because of oxidation of the plastic interior.  Is this true, 
and
if not bleach what can you use to sanatize them?

2) Saw several posts that said most kegs use 2-4 cartridges to dispense
entire keg, Is there a better way? as they are expensive.  Like mabey a
regulated co2 tank?>

I really like the size of these kegs.  They don't take up much space and
you can rotate brews morely often.   I clean them with "One Step" or
"Straight A."  I can't recall trying bleach, but of hand I don't see why
that would not work.  One problem with cleaning them is that they are
difficult to totally drain.  I have found that turning them upside down
with a strip of paper towel tucked in the hole to wick out the water 
works
well.  Put the inverted assembly on a paper towel to absorb the water.

The best way to deal with the CO2 cartridges is to use the pressure valve

as an on/off valve only.  I only turn the valve on when I need more gas 
to
move the beer.  If the valve is left on all the time, the CO2 will 
disolve
into the beer and you will waste the cartridges and have foamy beer.  If
you do this and use a bit of keg lube on the tip of the cartridges you
should be able to get two kegs per 16 gram cartridge or a keg per 8 gram.
  


"The Carbonater"  2 liter bottle caps can be used as an adapter for a CO2

tank and regulator.  It will need a rubber washer with a hole in it.  I
used a piece of tire patch.

The kegs can become over pressured.  They will bulge at 60 psi or so and
ruin the keg.  This usually doesn't happen if you use a tablespoon of 
sugar
per keg to prime.  However sometimes an incomplete fermentation or a wild

yeast can cause this problem.  We now manufacturel a bung that has been
modified with a pressure relieph valve that vents at 30 psi until the
pressure goes down to about 20 psi so the kegs won't bulge. 


Always hold the diptube when breaching the bung.  If you try to push the
tap in dynaimite plunger style, you can buckel the dip tube.

About adjusting mills.  My store stocks about 76 different grains.  I 
crush
or let my customers crush their grain free in a prototype two roll mill. 

It is infinitely adjustable with just the twist of a knob; no set screws,

eccentric bushings or fixed positions.  I look at every grist that passes

through when I use it and adjust when it seems too fine or too coarse.  I

am sure that I could find an adjustment that would be fine for the bulk 
of
the grains and not overly harmfull for most of the rest ( try rye malt
sometime ).  But the mill is easy to adjust, so why not go for the best 
you
can get?

Dan Listermann      dan at listermann.com

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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:18:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel_Plutchak <joel at uiatma.atmos.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Midwest Homebrewer of the Year?

In HBD #2908, Paul Kerchefske asks:
>Does anyone know what happened to the web page that carried the
>midwest Homebrewer of the Year web page? The old page says it
>doesn't exist. Thanks.

   My understanding is that the MWHBY program has been
turned over to another person.  However, I don't recall
seeing any announcements about it, and have seen zero
updates or corrections since August.  I fear the MWHBY
program is effectively dead.
   You can see a copy of the August files at
<http://helios.insnet.com/~peroulas/mwhboy/>.
- --
Joel Plutchak
Champaign, Illinois


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 12:21:13 PST
From: "silent bob" <holdenmcneil at hotmail.com>
Subject: bugs, CO, and frozen carboys

Holiday greetings all,


I have also seen these bugs in grain, but only in raw pearled barley 
from an organic food store.  My question is, does their presence 
necessitate a protien rest, and at what temp???


Yes, as a medical professional, I can affirm that long hours in a smoky 
pub will impair the oxygen carrying capacity of hemoglobin.  I don't 
know how the CO levels compare to a propane burner, but I have to guess 
it is much lower.  Besides, the tar is probably of much greater 
significance to your health.


Condolences on the loss of a carboy to old man winter.  This from a 
fellow bonehead ;~)


Later- Adam




______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 98 15:56:21 PST
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: yet more mills

Hi all,

The debate over adjustable vs. fixed mills continues.  Since the queue 
is short,
I'll respond to Jack's post (in which he responded to my post).  Those 
of you
who are completely disinterested can page down now.

I said:

"1.  Different malts are different sizes and require different
gap sizes to efficiently mill them..."

Jack responded:

" Can this "efficiently" actually be measured
or tasted?  If so (which I doubt) is the measured value significant?"

To which I say:

Actually, the efficiency of the crush is quite easily measured, and
most certainly can effect the beer's character.  Too course a crush
will yield low extract.  Anybody with a hydrometer can measure that.
A low pre-boil gravity means either making a beer other than what the
brewer intended or boiling longer to concentrate the wort.  That will
effect flavor.  How significant these effects are is up to the consumer
of the beer.

Jack again quotes me:

"  Wheat malt is not properly crushed in a mill that is optimized
 for two-row barley.  Some raw grains are even smaller."

and then says:

"But what if the mill is optimized for all known types of malt?
This may sound pompous but why are you assuming that the fixed
mill is optimized for two-row barley and later on you even draw
a distinction between US and European two row."

To which I respond:

Please explain how a gap of fixed size can be perfect for crushing
grains of various sizes.  Wheat malt is not the same size as barley
malt, oat and rye malts are also different, etc.

Jack then responds to my comment about placing the blame for
poor extraction efficiency on an improper crush, saying:

"As a manufacturer of both milling and lautering equipment, I could
not disagree with you more.  Once one gets out of the Corona class,
varying the crush is tweeking at the margins.  Virtually every
customer I have ever talked to with yield problems blamed on the
mill, eventually found that the problem was either the malt or
the lauter system or process.  I would put the greatest burden
for variability on the malt, in particular, bottom end American
malt."

To which I say:

Well, we'll disagree!  As somebody who has brewed thousands of
gallons of beer and crushed thousands of pounds of malt on
several different mills (both homebrew and commercial mills),
I'll still say that a poor crush will definitely
hurt your extraction efficiency.  Water chemistry is probably the least
of all the causes of poor extraction, and sparging really isn't all that
tough to master.

I will agree with Jack about the variability of malt being a factor,
although in general it has not been a problem for me.  The only
malt I have had trouble with is Muntons.  I had a sack of severely
overgrown malt from them which yielded much less extract than
it would have if it was first quality.  The poor customer service I
received from their US distributor really soured me on their malts.

Wolfgang Kunze, in _Technology Brewing and Malting_ talks a
bit about when to mill finely, when to mill
coarsely, and mentions that the grist quality effects the mashing
process, brewhouse yield, fermentation, beer filterability, beer
color, taste and overall character.

He unfortunately does not go into much detail about these important
points, but I have recently quoted other sources that talk about the
importance of wort clarity out of the lauter tun and how it can effect
the separation of hot break, which in turn effects fermentation and'
therefore overall beer character. (I don't have the paper with me now;
I think I referenced it here within the last few weeks).

I am sure Jack's fixed mill can be used to produce excellent
beers. Some people, like me, are always looking for improvements in their
beer's quality.  Milling as efficiently as possible is one way of 
reaching
the goal of better beer.  As Jack points out, the choice is yours.

Have fun!

George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)


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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:33:57 -0500
From: "Dave Humes" <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Bottle conditioning, bottle headspace, and CO2 levels

Greetings,

I just came accross the following article that postulates that low
CO2 levels can result in bottle conditioned beers from overfilling
and thus restricting oxygen available to the yeast.  The article was
was written by Mark Dobner of Shepherd Neame Breweries in Great
Britian.  The overall subject is the formulation and preparation of
an authentic Bavarian Weiss beer for production in a traditional
British infustion mash system.  Bottle conditioning is a secondary
topic.  It is somewhat long for posting on the digest, so here's the
link to the full text and I'll quote the relevant section.

http://www.breworld.com/the_grist/9804/gr2.html

"The bottle beer production increased the logistical dilemmas since
this beer required to be krausened with wort to 1Plato above the
racking gravity. In rough terms this meant a 10% wort addition had to
be made to the beer in BBT prior to package. Furthermore, the beer
had to undergo the same convoluted route including sterilisation in
the keg plant pasteuriser. "

"A bottom fermenting lager yeast cultured up in a 30-litre keg was
then pitched in to the beer immediately prior to racking on the
bottling line.  The pitch rate desired was 0.5 million cells per ml.
No oxygenation was given to the beer at this stage but our German
colleagues in association with Michael Hoeck calculated that
sufficient air in neck would provide the yeast with the oxygen
required. This meant good control was required during packaging, as
over-filling here would have a significant effect on the final
carbonation level achieved in bottle. The fermentation in the bottle
would be expected to increase the carbon dioxide level from 0.5vols
to 3.5vols."

This seems a bit counter-intuitive to me.  I thought that it has been
pretty much universally accepted that priming sugar or wort added at
bottling time was rapidly fermented, and that little if any
respiration takes place, or for that matter is desirable.  If there's
any truth to this idea, it would explain the positive correlation
between CO2 levels and bottle headspace that has been reported by
several on the digest and observed by myself also.  On the other
hand, since the article is talking about the formulation of a
Bavarian Weiss, maybe a larger than usual amount of yeast growth in
the bottle is considered desirable and contributes positively to the
overall profile.  Then, the effect on carbonation would just be a
seconday issue, albeit one that had to be calculated in order to
arrive at the proper carbonation level while achieving the desired
flavor profile.






Dave Humes                             >>humesdg1 at earthlink.net<<



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:06:31 -0600
From: "Michael J. Dale <mdale at mediaone.net>" <mdale at mediaone.net>
Subject: Seal-A-Mealer

I have some experience with these things as I am an avid 
dehydrator.  For something like hops, a cheaper version of these 
gadgets would probably be sufficient, and one can be had at Sears. 
 However, the caveat is that the cheaper ones do not really develop 
a great vacuum and you would really want a higher quality one, 
using a piston vacuum pump rather than a fan to develop the 
vacuum, if you were planning to package any other types of food.  
This is especially important for foods with liquids in them.  Hops, 
being small and dryish, would be ok with the lighter vacuum.

mjd

Yes, but in the morning I shall be sober.

        - Winston Churchill



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 16:32:34 -0600 (CST)
From: "Val J. Lipscomb" <valjay at NetXpress.com>
Subject: Christmas idea

Best of the season to one and all,
        A pretty decent idea,very seasonal, has come my way. For
us clods who cram our CO2 bottles and such into corners and wedge
'em between stuff to keep'em upright,there is a better way. A
plastic Christmas tree stand,in 6 or 8 inch capacity, does the job
superbly AND on Saturday they'll be on sale (most places) for half
price. Attribution for this notion goes to "Dagger Dick" Thackston,
brewer,fellow Bock'n'Alien and thinking guy, who had a spare stand 
lying around when he bought his Oxy bottle.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good beer,

Val Lipscomb-brewing in cold,wet San Antonio



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 17:00:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Al Korzonas <korz at xnet.com>
Subject: Under da hood

Sandy posts some details on brewery design.  I'd like to add one that
I plan to incorporate in mine... you may want to also.

If you buy a hood, it will probably already have this feature, but since
many of us are do-it-yourselfers, it's likely that we may make our own.
If so, do as Sandy suggests and go look at the design of a commercial
hood.  More than likely it will have a lip inside the bottom edge to
catch condensate.  The kitchen range hood at home (which I've long
outgrown, now brewing 1/2bbl batches) used to drip condensing water
back into the kettle if the lid was left off.  Considering all the
oils on the inside of this kitchen range hood, I wouldn't be surprised
if they didn't have something to do with the occasional batch that
had bad head retention.

By the way, a few years ago I priced new commercial exhaust hoods with
supply air.  I believe they BEGAN at $3000 in the catalog I was looking.
Check your local Yellow Pages for "Restaurant Supply - Used Equipment."
Besides things like hoods, you can also get HUGE used kettles and lots
of shiny stainless steel things (happy, happy, joy, joy!).

Hoppy Holidays.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at xnet.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 03:09:17 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: vinegar

Keith asks about making malt vinegar.

I have an old home vinegar book that refers to vinegar
made from malt.  It says "malt vinegar can be made at 
home easily, especially if you are a homebrewer.  At
bottling time, some of your wort could simply be set
aside to make malt vinegar".  This doesn't make sense
since we usually only bottle finished beer and
not wort.

I also make wine.  Several years ago I ended up with
ten gallons of Concord wine and I really don't care
for it's flavor.  I bought a Vinegar Mother from the
homebrew shop, diluted some wine 50:50 with tap water, 
added the VM and let it set for a year in a carboy
covered only with cloth.  It made very good vinegar.

After the vinegar was syphoned from the carboy some
VM was left so I added more wine and water to restart
the process.  It's a lot easier than making beer.

Since the Vinegar Mother makes vinegar from the alcohol
I would suggest starting with some beer that didn't
turn out quite right.  Don't dilute with water since
the alcohol content of beer is much lower than wine.
The book says 5% alcohol is the very least needed for
a decent vinegar.  Also, I kept the vinegar upstairs
away from my brewery and winery in fear of turning it
into a basement vinegar factory. 

        Bill Frazier
        The Briarpatch Home Brewery
        Johnson County, Kansas



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Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 20:59:23 -0700 (MST)
From: William Graham <weg at rmi.net>
Subject: Grain for barley wine

Greetings and Christmas Salutations:

	I'm planning on a batch of barley wine very closely following the
"Big 10/20"  recipe that I've seen here. I would like to use Briess
"Brewers Malt" which is, from the Briess web site, a lighter malt than
their pale ale malt, "suitable for all beers". I've noticed that almost
all bw recipes call for at least pale ale malt, if not the british pale
ale malts. 
	My experience tasting most bw's is that the taste is "muddy" or
"complicated", and doesn't seem to have a single "theme". (Some examples
that do not have these problems are Bigfoot and Old Forhorn which, to my
tongue, are "coherent"). Anyway, to simplify the malt signature (but still
keep it heavy), I would like to user the lighter malt.  
	Will this do what I want? Will I just get an insipid bw? Does
anyone even understand what I'm trying to say/ask?

Bill

"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali



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---