---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Sanitizing Bottles ("Donald Fischer")
  Bottlling Beer ("Jim Bermingham")
  malts and hops ("J. Daoust")
  Origin of English Stout (Tim Olsen)
  Improved Kome-koji process for homebrew Sake (Mutsuo Hoshido)
  netscape/3 decoction pilseners (jim williams)
  kegging (Bill Tonkin)
  <no subject> ("Matthew  Hahn")
  strange mash (John Herman)
  CAP corn question (DakBrew)
  Attenuation (Dan Listermann)
  Yeast,Starch and Cheese, OH MY! (Eric.Fouch)
  re:alcohol and beer port (MaltHound)
  Re: Fermentation woes ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Newcastle (extract) Clone Sought (Tom Franklin)
  Hot Water freezes faster, yes, it really does. (Ed Busch)
  RIMS Pumping Problems with Lager malts (SBireley)
  Diacetyl Rest, Lagering Question ("Mark Vernon")
  Re-pitching Yeast + Hops? ("Drew Avis")
  california common (JPullum127)
  Fusels and hangovers (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  very important message ("Gradh O'Dunadaig")
  referencing posters - a request. (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Am I Prescient? (Paul Ward)
  No Protien Rest = Chill Haze ("Mark Riley")
  RE: Bottle thingies (Scott Murman)
  pulling the decoction (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
  Aging hops ("Steve")
  CF Chillers (AJ)
  Momily Bullet (Tim Anderson)
  Sour malt (Randy Ricchi)
  Wyeast 2278 (Randy Ricchi)


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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:30:16 -0600
From: "Donald Fischer" <dlf560f at mail.smsu.edu>
Subject: Sanitizing Bottles

I've got a question for the collective that involves sanitizing bottles. For
the first couple of years that I brewed I would thoroughly wash my bottles
in B-Brite just before bottling (soak & rinse w/ hot water using the
standard jet device attached to my kitchen sink faucet) -- no chlorine or
iodide sanitizing. I was using the same procedure for my fermenters,
ciphoning hoses, & other paraphernelia -- just thorough washing with
B-Brite.

Although I was generally happy with the results, a couple of infected brews
that I had to pour out got me to change my ways. For the last six or seven
batches I've been soaking EVERYTHING in chlorinated water for at least 30
minutes. If I'm just brewing (not bottling) it doesn't slow me down much. If
I'm trying to bottle & brew on the same day it's turned a fairly pleasant 5
hour job into a 7-8 hour marathon.

A batch or two ago I started doing what a guy in our local brewing club said
he does to streamline the process. I wash/sanitize the bottles days (or
weeks) before I brew. I fill the washed bottles to the brim with the
sanitizing solution and "cap" the bottles with a 2-inch square piece of
heavy duty aluminum foil, squeezing the foil tightly around the top of the
bottle (it makes a tight seal). When it's a brew day & I want to bottle a
batch that's in secondary, so I can transfer a batch from primary & make
space for the next, I just dump the solution from the bottles, rinse w hot
tap water & drain.

Here's my question: I notice the aluminum foil is often slightly tarnished
when I remove it (especially the part that covers the top & makes contact
with the solution). I also notice a faint salt-like residue on the bottle
top & around the side where the foil makes contact with the glass. Are the
tarnish & slight residue related? Is either toxic? Does anyone else use this
procedure?

Here are some additional facts: my sanitizing solution is about two
tablespoons of generic house hold bleach per 5 gallons (I mix it up in my
primary fermenter -- a standard 7 gal, white plastic bucket). I'm on a
chlorinated city water system, so my tap water is also chlorinated.

Thanks for any info & advice.

Donald Fischer -- a slightly worried brewer in the Ozarks.
email: donaldfischer at mail.smsu.edu





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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:37:28 -0600
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Bottlling Beer

I have 7 horses and 23 donkeys.  This makes 30 Micro Breweries running
around in my pasture.  I have a problem kegging the beer, the kegs are too
heavy to follow the breweries when its racking time.  Bottling is much
easier.

Jim
JackAss Brewery
Millsap,TX



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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:34:02 -0800
From: "J. Daoust" <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: malts and hops

I am looking for a listing of available malts, malt extracts, and hops.
Listing the characteristics of each. Primarily what they will do for my
beer,(color, flavor, bitterness). Has anyone heard of such a listing??.
I have found partial listings of hops at cats meow and in Dave Millers
guide.  Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks,  Jerry Daoust



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:55:27 -0500
From: Tim Olsen <tro13 at nycap.rr.com>
Subject: Origin of English Stout

I recently had the opportunity to sample an English stout named " Free
miner deep shaft stout". It was said to be casked conditioned. I would
classify it as a "robust" stout because of it's hop profile. The
publican had little knowledge of its origin. Can anyone shed some light
on it's brewery?

Tim Olsen



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:34:01 +1000
From: hoshido at gman.rme.sony.co.jp (Mutsuo Hoshido)
Subject: Improved Kome-koji process for homebrew Sake

I had a sake brewing job experience at an old-fashioned and traditional
sake brewery,Matsuya sake brewery,on Feb.7.

Thanks to the President Mr.Matsubara's openminded explanation about
sake brewing and Kome-koji process,I was saccessful to make my own
Kome-koji at home,the same appearance and the same taste as that of
the sake brewery.

Key point is to steam cook rice as dry as possible by very short time
of washing and soaking together.

Equipment and materials I used:

 1.Normal eating rice 2kg ( I used "Hitomebore"rice which is one of the
   tastiest rice kinds in Japan.)  The sake brewery used so called 60%
   polished special sake rice kind. (40% reduced from original rice.
   Material cost increased 40% plus polishing expence. )
 2.Stainless steel bowl and basket to wash and soak rice.
 3.Steam cooker.
 4.Cotton cloth, a loose open weave.(Traditional Sake brewery uses hemp
   cloth.)
 5.Thin wooden container or Sushi cooked rice container.
 6.48L picnic cooler box.
 7.A 60W tungsten lamp together with a small fan which is controlled
   by a Robertshow type temperature controller.
 8.Dry Koji-kin or Koji-fungi. I got a pack thanks to the Sake brewery
    president,Mr.Matsubara.
 9.Ethylalcohl spray to sanitize hands.

Improved  Kome-koji from dry Koji-kin or Koji-fungi

1.  From 13:00 on Feb.11.
    Wash and soak the 2 kg rice for about 30min. in a Stainless
    steel basket together with a bowl and them remove the bowl.
    Drain the water at least 60 minutes.

2.  Wrap the rice with a cotton cloth and steam cook it for 60min
    with weak gas flame.
    Steam cooked rice looks slightly transparent and well separable,
    not white and not sticky,because of less content of water.

3.  Spread and separate the each rice on the other cotton cloth in a
    wooden container by hands to cool down the cooked rice to
    30dgC (86degF) which I don't feel warm temperature anymore.

4.  Wrap about a few gram of dry Koji-kin or Koji-fungi with a gauze.
    And sprinkle the Koji-kin or Koji-fungi on the cool rice and
    well mix it by hands. (Dispose remaining rice of dry Koji-kin or
    Koji-fungi in the gauze after spinkling)

5.  Wrap the rice with the cotton cloth in the wooden container and
    slightly moisten the cotton cloth with water spray.
    Put the rice together with the wooden container in a picnic cooler
    box with the temperature controller set at 30 deg C (86degF) .

6.  At 06:00 on Feb.12.
    The rice started to stick together. Well separate the rice with hands.
    After wraping the rice with the cotton cloth. Moisten the cloth.

7. At 21:00 on Feb.12.
    Kome-koji alreasy started to smell out side of the picnic cooler box.

8. At 06:00 on Feb.13.
   The Kome-koji stuck together. Well separate the Kome-koji with hands.
   After wraping the rice with the cotton cloth. Moisten the cloth.

9. At 17:00 on Feb.13.
   Remove the already prepared Kome-koji from the picnic cooler box
   and cooled down to the room temperature by spreading the Kome-koji
   on the other cotton cloth on a clean table or plate.
   The uniform well separated beautifully white Kome-koji is made.
   Slightly sweet taste the same as that of Sake brewery.

10.Put the Kome-koji in a Ziploc and keep it in a refrigerator for
   homebrew sake or miso making.

End




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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:27:03 -0800
From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: netscape/3 decoction pilseners

Hello,
Thank you everyone that replied to my netscape question. I think I got
it all sorted out. Thanks again!

On to brewing.
I'm considering a 3 decoction Pilsener, bohemian style. I know there are
many ways around the triple decoction. I'm considering, just as much to
say I've done it than anything else, and for tradition sake. I do single
decoctions on all of my weisen, and my alts. I'm not totally out  there
in terms of decoction, but triple....

Anybody out there do this? And swear by it? What do most of you use for
mash schedules/malt choices? What about ditching the decoction and using
some melanoidan malt, which I've never used. I'm looking for the
malty/bready/bitter/hoppy smoothness of Pilsener Urquell.

What about yeast strains? In the past I've used the  wyeast czech
strain. Has anyone used anchor steam yeast on this type of beer at room
temp? What about this yeast with other styles of lager?

Thanks, Jim


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:16:52 -0500
From: Bill Tonkin <billt at wcu.campuscwix.net>
Subject: kegging

what is the best method you all have found for kegging?  I have tryed
several methods and just cannot get the results i want.
Thanks
bill

I am getting a new email address please correct any address books you have
bill
billt at wcu.campuscwix.net


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 06:31:22 -0500
From: "Matthew Hahn" <mchahn at earthlink.net>
Subject: <no subject>

A few months ago I saw an ad in one of the beerzines (BREWING TECHNIQUES?)
about liquors (non-distilled) that you could make at home. These were not
the flavorings that one adds to vodka or brandy but actual kits to make a
beverage that ferments to 20% or so. Anybody else see this ad and remember
where it was or anybody know the name and contact info of the company? Any
help would be appreciated. Thanks.


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:09:48 -0500
From: John Herman <johnvic at earthlink.net>
Subject: strange mash

I was mashing for a barley wine yesterday.  My system can only handle 14
lbs. of grain at most.  My plane was to mash and sparge in 2 halves.
The first half went well.  During the second half I had a lot of trouble
controlling the temperature and I was getting inacurate temperature
readings, ( due to not mixing enough - lesson learned! ) and it mostly
stayed around 140 degrees.  After 2 and a half hours I gave up.  When I
started the mash there was a lot of fine powder and the mash looking
milky.  After I gave up it looked more like light brown peanut butter.
I've learned my lesson ( good ), and have 2 gallons of barley wine
brewing ( the wort tasted delicious - great ).  My question is, what is
up with that peanut butter look?

- --
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
* Bicycling, Bassing and Brewing *
*                                *
*        The Real 3 B's!         *
*                                *
*          John Herman           *
*     johnvic at earthlink.net      *
//////////////////////////////////




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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:24:52 EST
From: DakBrew at aol.com
Subject: CAP corn question

Hey all I am thinking about doing a CAP and have a question or two about the
corn you use and its cost. 
First off where do you by coarse ground corn meal? And what are you paying per
LB?
Second what is polenta? and again what is the cost and where is it obtained?

Thirdly has anyone ever used popcorn? Unpoped and run through a grain mill? 

Thanks to all who respond
Dan K


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:58:20 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Attenuation

Michael Pratt ( Michael.Pratt at ottawa.com)  complains that his recent
batches are finishing with a rather high gravity.  He goes through the
things he has done with yeast, aeration, pH, ect. to reduce it.  I have
found that these factors are not  main effects.  I am sure that they have

some bearing, but if you really want to improve attenuation increase the
mash time and keep the temperature low.  You have to have sugars that 
will
ferment. 


Dan Listermann    dan at listermann.com

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:02:00 -0500
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Yeast,Starch and Cheese, OH MY!

HBD-

OK, so, according to Steve,
>"'The Yeasts' Rose&Harrison, Academic Press London, discusses yeast under
>pressure as relates to wine fermentation with Saccharomyces Cerevisiae var
>Ovoidum.  At 3-4 atmospheres (45-60psi) yeast cease to grow, but continue to
>ferment.  At ~8 atm (120psi) yeast cease to ferment.  The higher pressures
>are used in the wine industry to stop fermentation."

Will the yeast recover at lower pressures and resume fermentative activities,
or are they dead?

Gradh O'Dunadaig post an "Extract" recipe:

>6# light syrup extract
>2# light DME
>8oz crystal 10
>8oz munich                               <-------This is STARCH!
>2oz columbus leaf (60 min)
>1oz eroica leaf (60 min)
>1oz cascade leaf (30 min)
>0.5oz cascade (10 min)
>1.5oz cascade (dry)

>OG. 1.060
>FG. 1.011
>
>THIS IS BEER!!!

Make sure you mash Munich!

Nathan wonders about his yeast:

>Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 08:42:17 -0600
>From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
>Subject: Rochefort Yeast / Sensory evaluation
>Any thoughts would be appreciated!  TIA....oh yeah, anybody brewed with
>this yeast got any experiences to pass along?  Thanks.
>nathan in Madison, wi

Sounds like this beer would taste good on a cracker!

Sorry.

Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:11:33 EST
From: MaltHound at aol.com
Subject: re:alcohol and beer port

On Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:56:45 -0800, "Bryan L. Gros" <gros at bigfoot.com> says:

"I've been getting into port wine lately, and I was thinking
about beer port. As you know, port is made by the
winery adding grape brandy to the fermenting wine 2 to
3 days after fermentation begins. The result is that the
added alcohol wipes out the yeast, ending fermentation
and thus leaving residual sugar behind.

The beer analogy would be to take a barleywine type
wort, begin fermentation, and then 2 to 3 days later
(maybe longer), add scotch to the fermenter to up
the alcohol and leave the unfermented sugars behind."

***QDA - ON***
I would hazard a guess that the port makers do this as a means to achieve a
desired sweet taste in the end product, not necessarily to increase the
alcohol levels, though that is certainly a byproduct of the process.
Invasively halting fermentation would be necessary to achieve that end since
the sugar source (grapes) are limited in sugar content.  This is entirely
conjecture on my part.
***QDA- OFF***

OTOH we malt brewers typically boil our raw materials anyway and concentrating
the wort to increase the sugar concentration is easy.  In any case I have been
very successful in producing very sweet beers in a couple of ways without the
need for unnaturally halting fermentation.  

One thing that I have noticed is that the *perception* of sweetness in beers
is more directly related to the lack of a balancing hop bitterness than it is
to the actual presence or lack of residual sugars.

Starting with a wort of high (<1.100) gravity is likely to leave a fairly
heavy and sweet beer after the natural end of ferment.   This seems true even
with fairly aggressive hopping.  A beer made like this with a TG in the
1.025-1.030 range seems to exhibit a satisfying sweetness that shines through
what otherwise would unbearable hop bitterness (75-100 IBUs.) 

It might be possible to create this same sort of malt / hop balance in a lower
alcohol brew by arresting fermentation, but using alcohol to do the job would
seem counterintuitive.


Fred Wills
Londonderry, NH



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:21:29 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re: Fermentation woes

Mike,

I have had the same thing happen.  I used to get very volatile
fermentations and low FGs.  Now they are slow and the FGs are higher.  I
believe they are the result of changes in my technique.  I was getting some
"off" flavors so, I lowered my pitching temperature and improved my trub
and hop management.

I used to pitch at 80F, 85F, even 90F based on advice from someone.  I was
also keeping it at 75F or higher depending on the room temperature.  Now I
pitch at 70F-75F and ferment at 65F-70F.  I get, as I said, very mild
fermentations and higher FGs.

I also believe that when I pitched at 85F and kept it at 75F, the wort
stayed at close to 85F for the 2-3 days of primary fermentation.  The
fermenter just doesn't cool much because the temperature differential is so
small.  So, even if the storage temperature is low, if the pitching
temperature is high, the effective fermentation may be quite high.


The other things I have done are better trub management and use of hop
bags.  I used to just toss the hops into Th. boil then, siphon everything
into the fermentor.  I am sure that the break  material and hop particles
contributed to some of the off flavors but it may also have helped the
fermentation.  I used to be sloppy about bottling and would sometimes get
some hops into the bottle.  Often, these bottles would be considerably over
carbonated compared to the bottles without hops.  Thus, I concluded that
the hop particles helped the yeast make more CO2.  Maybe the hops or trub I
was siphoning into the fermentor helped the yeast get the gravity down. 

So far I am pleased with the reduced off flavors but dissatisfied with the
higher FG.

Hope this helps.  


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY
0 Degrees 30.21 Min North, 4 Degrees 05.11 Min. East of Jeff Renner


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 07:06:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Tom Franklin <tommfranklin at yahoo.com>
Subject: Newcastle (extract) Clone Sought

Hi All,

My neighbor is just getting into Homebrewing and wants a good
Newcastle clone.  We tried on a few weeks ago, and while it's good,
it's a far cry from Newcastle

Anyone have an extract recipe that comes close?

tom

p.s.  Apologies for requesting a recipe on the Board, but I've
searched and found very little of help out there. 




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:08:37 -0500
From: Ed Busch <filter at rcn.com>
Subject: Hot Water freezes faster, yes, it really does.

This message appeared as an article on HBD recently.

>Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:55:09 -0800
>From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
>Subject: Of course hot water freezes faster - NOT!
>
>
>PUH-LEEZ!  I'm nearly speechless ..., but not quite.
>
>Armin Ulrich <ajulrich at telusplanet.net> says,
>>The main reason that hot water freezes faster is that the water molecules
>>in the hot water are in a higher energy state (buzzing about faster) and
>>that activity state has a flywheel effect as the water cools down, And
>> ... <snipped, because it's too silly to post again>
>
>Let's see.  I can start with water at 100C or I can start with water at
>40C.  If I start with water at 100C, at some point in the cooling the
>water will be at 40C.  Since it takes some time to cool from 100C to 40C,
>the previously 100C water which is now at 40C has to cool from 40C to 0C
in less time than the water that started at 40C.  Hmmm, two identical
>bowls of water at 40C and one has to freeze faster to make up for the time
>lost dropping from 100C.  So, Armin, are you saying that the water that
>started at 100C has a "memory" and a "will"?!
>
>NOT!
>
>>And for a extra low tech answer a few weeks back I saw video from Finland
where people threw boiling water into the air where it would freeze
>>before it hits the ground (Temp was -60C). Now why would anyone stand
outside in -60 (which is damn cold for those of you which have not
>>experienced it) boil water when you could use cold water.
>
>I did not see this video, but my guess is that starting with boiling water
>let them have more set up time for the demonstration.  Keeping fire under
>the pot from which they drew water prevented it from freezing in the pot,
>and cold water would freeze in the container on the way to the video
>camera. 
>
>See, even the Finns know that hot water takes longer to freeze. :-)
>
>Domenick Venezia   
>Seattle, WA
>demonick at zgi dot com

No offense meant, Domenick, but hot water really does freeze faster. My
source for this information is a weekly news magazine, Science Digest.
Unfortunately, this is by memory, since this controvery actually occurred
in the mid-70's. I can't specify the exact issues. I remember it because I
had just graduated with a BS in Chemistry and subscribed to the publication
through the mid-70's. It was an interesting controversy.
	The source was an experiment done by students in Chem Lab at an unknown
(forgotten) college. One of the students was late in getting to the lab and
his lab result, a bowl of hot liquid, was much hotter than the ones from
the other students. They had time to let their bowls of liquid cool to room
temperature. Nonetheless, he put his overheated bowl into the freezer along
with the other room temperature bowls. He discovered that his bowl froze
rock hard while the other bowls were still "slushy". He asked the professor
why hot liquids froze faster than cold liquids, and was told that that was
impossible. Nonetheless, it happened.
	A series of experiments were undertaken and they confirmed the results:
Hot water froze faster than room temperature water. More experiments were
done to determine why. The answer turned out to be surprisingly simple.
	Under "open cup conditions" hot water freezes faster than room temperature
water. I know that this sounds counter-intuitive, but evaporation is
something that most people don't consider.
	Let's define "open cup conditions". Picture putting two simple coffee cups
of water into a freezer, one cup with hot water, the other with the
identical amount of room temperature water. The cups have a significant
amount of surface area exposed to the cold. The cup with hot water will
freeze faster. It will do so because hot water evaporates quicker than
cooler water.  What really happens is that enough hot water evaporates to
reduce the mass of the water in the cup, and a smaller mass freezes faster.
Put a lid over the cups, and you're right. The hot water takes much longer
to freeze than the room temperature water.
	I assume that Science News is still available in some libraries. The
on-line version only goes back to 1996.

Regards,
Ed



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 99 10:58:35 EST
From: SBireley at renex.com
Subject: RIMS Pumping Problems with Lager malts 

     

     A friend and I have been all grain brewing for several years, the last 
     two using a bottom fired RIMS setup.  We brew about once a month or 
     more and have accumulated a fair amount of experience.
     
     Our current setup is a 3 tier system with sankey kegs for the kettle, 
     mash tun, and hot liquor tank.  We have a stainless steel centrifugal 
     pump with electronic speed control, and 3/8" ID 1/8" wall Tygon tubing 
     for plumbing.  We use an ABT false bottom in the mashtun with a 1/2" 
     copper manifold to distribute the wort on top of the grain bed. We brew 
     12 gallon batches so our grain bill is 20 to 35 lbs of grain depending 
     on the target OG.  We crush our grain with an adjustable JSP Malt Mill 
     which works very well.
     
     When brewing with Briess or Canadian Malting two row with up to 40% 
     Munich Malt, the brew nights are flawless.  We can pump fast enough to 
     get 2 deg. per minute rise during boosts without scorching the bottom 
     of the mash.  We have used both a stepped mash program and a single 
     step infusion program with great results, leaving plenty of time to 
     enjoy the products of our labor from previous brew nights.
     
     Wanting try other malts to brew European Style beers, we have 
     experimented with Crisp Lager Malt, DWC Munich, Durst Munich, and 
     Durst Pilsner Malt. The problem we have encountered with all of these 
     malts is the mash bed compacting to the point of sticking during 
     recirculation.  The mash is still loose enough to run-off during 
     lautering, but we cannot maintain a pump speed high enough to boost 
     the temperature of the mash bed to mashout.  Repeated stirring to 
     break up the compaction works for a couple of minutes, but it compacts 
     again. 
     
     Using these malts, the mash seems to be more sticky than with the 
     Briess or Canadian Malting malt.
     
     
     We have tried:
     
     adjusting the mill setting to get a more course crush;
     
     adding a lb. of rice hulls to the mash to help keep the bed loose;
     
     pumping up through the mash be to keep the bed fluidized, but we did 
     not have a suitable filter to keep grain out of the pump.  This did 
     show some promise though.
     
     None of these worked satisfactorily.  
     
     Has anyone experienced this before?  Does anyone have an idea how 
     solve this problem?
     
     TIA
     
     Steve Bireley
     No. Virginia



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:39:29 -0600
From: "Mark Vernon" <vernonm at goportable.com>
Subject: Diacetyl Rest, Lagering Question

OK, I am in the process of my first lager (been doing ales for a couple
years) I have two questions:
1) What is and do I need to do a Diacetyl Rest (if I need one at what temp)
2) When I go from the secondary fermentation stage to the lager stage,
should I transfer to a new carboy?

The beer is a Bock done with a triple (yes triple) decoction, hey why start
out easy.

Thanks for all your help

Mark Vernon
Pleasant Street Brewery



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:23:42 PST
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re-pitching Yeast + Hops?

Dear HBD,
A question that has been bothering me for a while:  I like to re-pitch 
yeast collected from the secondary.  I also like to dry-hop with 
pellets.  Is there a problem with re-pitching all the sediment (yeast 
and hops)?  I realize I should wash the yeast, but my house is populated 
by dogs, cats, and a tortoise (in other words, it's an unsanitary, 
chaotic mess), so I try to keep it safe by handling yeast as little as 
possible.  

On hot vs cold water freezing - the following site covers it pretty 
well.  I've included the references from the page:
http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/hot_water_freezes_faster.html

"Hot water freezes faster than cold water.  Why does it do so?",
Jearl Walker in The Amateur Scientist, Scientific American,
Vol. 237, No. 3, pp 246-257; September, 1977.

"The Freezing of Hot and Cold Water", G.S. Kell in American
Journal of Physics, Vol. 37, No. 5, pp 564-565; May, 1969.

Drew Avis,
Calgary


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Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:14:18 EST
From: JPullum127 at aol.com
Subject: california common

now that we have tried a  couple  all-grain batches ,my  partner  wants to try
an  anchor steam clone.   anyone have a tried and true all-grain recipe?
thanks     marc


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:14:44 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Fusels and hangovers


Someone wrote in asking about whether or not fusels (higher alcohols)
actually make for a worse hangover. I remember reading statements to this
effect in several texts but never saw any specifics. I've just done a
search of the biomedical literature on this topic and found it to be
surprisingly sparse. Of the few relevant studies out there most seem to be
from the early 1970's (I didn't go back any further than this so it's
possible there is more out there). From scanning abstracts and pharmacology 
texts it seems pretty clear that there are many potential contributing
factors involved in developing a hangover and that no one seems to know
what extent each of these actually plays in the process. Such factors
include toxic metabolites of ethanol and methanol (formaldehyde, formic
acid, acetaldehyde, acetone, etc) which are detectable in the blood and
urine, changes in blood glucose levels, circulating hormones and blood
pressure, dehydration effects, etc. 

One paper specifically focused on fusels. "Comparative analysis of the
effects of alcoholic drinks on different qualities" Z Rechtsmed 1978 Mar
28; 81:31-43 (German). In this paper the authors compared the effects of
drinking drinks rich in fusels vs drinking the same amount of pure diluted
alcohol. They concluded that, "It was found that alcoholic drinks rich in
fusel oil produce a more deviating EEG curve, an increased worsening of
physiopsychic performance and of clinical and subjective symptoms." 

P.S. here's a fun word to try to fit into conversation - "crapulous" 


- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Graduate school is the snooze button on the alarm clock of life."
	
	-Jim Squire


 -Alan Meeker
Johns Hopkins Hospital
Dept. of Urology

(410) 614-4974
__________________________________________________________________






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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:22:25 PST
From: "Gradh O'Dunadaig" <odunadaig at hotmail.com>
Subject: very important message

get over "hot water freezes faster". who cares? you guys oughta have 
your own digest.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:25:19 -0500 (EST)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: referencing posters - a request.


Hi. Don't want to be a nudge but if you're referring to prior posts and
are including the name of the original poster please try to use their FULL
names. I don't want to be falsely given credit for someone's else's
ideas/advice, nor do I want to receive flames for someone else's errors
(both of which have happened). Using first names and last name initials
doesn't always work either (there is at least one other Alan M on this
list). It also helps me know who to contact for more info. If I read, "In
the last HBD, George said..." Is this George DePiro? George Fix? Curious
George? 

Thanks,

Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD





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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:17:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Ward <paulw at doc.state.vt.us>
Subject: Am I Prescient?

A couple of months ago I wrote asking about the possibility of using
our Vermont climate as a cooling source in winter due to my garden
hose being frozen into is' winter shape.  The unanimous reply was, 
"Don't be such a cheapskate, buy a dedicated hose for brewing and
keep it inside!"  So I did.

I finally got around to brewing that honey/wheat (although I only
used 2.5 lbs of honey rather than the 5 lbs. I originally planned).
I added an ounce of Saaz pellets at 10 minutes before knockout, and
started hydrating the Safale dry yeast.  I wish someone had told me
that my son had 'borrowed' a hose to drain his hot tub, I would have
planned my disasters better.

DATA POINT - it takes 4.5 hours to cool an original volume of 6.5
gallons of 212 F wort to 70F with an ambient air temp of +30F to
start and -2F at the end.  You will also lose about a gallon of wort
due to evaporation.  [NOTE:  I kept the kettle lid on for the first 2
hours until the sun set and all the chickadees went to roost and then
I removed the lid half way to try to cut down DMS trouble].

My poor yeast had finished proofing, couldn't find anything to eat,
so they went nighty night during this 4+ hour period.

Am I correct in assuming that my Saaz aroma hops passed into the
flavor and/or bittering range?  Will it contribute much bittering 
without an active boil?  Will there still be noticable flavor components 
left?

By 5:30 this morning I had some fermentation evident, so I know that
some of my yeast survived, and I'll end up with beer, just not sure
how it's going to end up (but I'm an optimist).

On an unrelated note - I attended a tattoo convention in Portland
Maine this last weekend.  Had lunch at Gritty McDuff's Pub -
wonderful pale ale.  After a couple or pints and a great meal, we
walked 3 blocks to the Shipyard brewery and took the tour.  The tour
guide didn't show up, so the kid running the gift shop took us
around.  He didn't know anything about brewing, or much about the
plant, but that was O.K. too (I got to stick my nose into a 55 gallon
gallon drum of Tettnang hop pelletts and inhale).  I was surprised
that they let us walk around in the room with all their open
fermenters.  They have no idea what sort of yeast I may have on my
person that could cause a problem with their Ringwood strain.  The
kid from the gift shop didn't seem to care.  I was surprised that
they're only running at about half their capacity.  They're either
carrying quite a dead debt load or they're poised for major and rapid
expansion.  Nice brewery, so-so beer.

Tattoos, brews, and ocean views make a great weekend.

Paul in Vermont
paulw at doc.state.vt.us

- -- 
According to government height/weight charts,
I'm seven and a half feet tall.


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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:24:25 -0800
From: "Mark Riley" <markril at jps.net>
Subject: No Protien Rest = Chill Haze

I've been following the protien rest debate for some time
and over the last year I've made several ales and lagers
without using a protien rest and have found that these very
same beers have a stubborn chill haze that won't go away
with "lagering".  Now, supposedly the pros say that a
protien rest is "unnecessary with  todays malts" but do
these same pros not care about chill haze because they're
all filtering their beers and this is a non-issue for them?

On the plus side, I notice that these beers do, on
average, form a better head.  A nice head is important
for appearances, but I also think that clarity is just as
important.

Some of the malts I've used are DWC Pilsner, DWC
Pale and Hugh Baird Pale.  I generally use Irish Moss
and don't use finings on the finished beer.  I'm
wondering if something like mash pH might be more
critical when not doing a protien rest (don't know this,
just wondering).  Is seperation from cold break an issue?

I realize that chill haze is of no consequence to many
brewers here, but darn it, with some of you out there
posting so emphatically that a protien rest is taboo,
I'm wondering what gives?

Cheers,

Mark Riley





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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:50:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: RE: Bottle thingies


> I have, for 4 years, been using a Phil's Philler from Listermann Mfg. I
> believe you can find it in most catalogs. It is minimally more expensive
> than the plastic versions and vastly more durable and efficient.
<snip>
> I would also suggest you go ahead and get the longer version. In the

If anyone is interested, I have one of these that can be had cheap.
Only been used once.

 -SM-



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:19:36 -0500
From: "Bayer, Mark A (Boeing)" <BayerMA at navair.navy.mil>
Subject: pulling the decoction

collective homebrew conscience_

darrell asked whether a pulled decoction should be thick or liquid.  it
depends on if you want enzymes in the next step of the mash process.

1.  boiling the liquid part of the mash denatures lots of enzymes
2.  boiling the solid part liberates starch by physical degradation

tribal wisdom (or is it science?) says that most of the enzymes in a mash
are in the liquid part, so if you pull mostly liquid and boil it, you're
denaturing more enzymes than if you pull a thick decoction and boil it.  you
can use acidified sparge water to dilute a very thick decoction and help
avoid scorching as long as you don't exceed any volume constraints in your
brewing vessels.

the classic triple decoction schedule elucidated by mr. gregory noonan
includes pulling much of the liquid from the mash, boiling, and adding back
to boost to mashout.  enzymes are unnecessary at this point in the mash.
plus, you don't want to liberate more starch by boiling the solid fraction,
since mashout temps denature enzymes in a hurry.

brew hard,

mark bayer
great mills, md


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Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 19:11:17 -0500
From: "Steve" <stjones1 at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Aging hops

Greetings, all.

I'm going to brew a pLambic soon, and don't have any aged hops. I was
thinking that maybe I could simulate aging by microwaving.

Here's my plan to get 3 oz aged hops:
1. Take 4 oz Cascade pellets, originally 5.7aa, but now over a year
old.
2. Put them in a microwave safe bowl and nuke them for 15 seconds on
high.
3. Crumble the hops. Taste them - note bitterness.
4. Repeat steps 2 and 3 several times, until they taste about 1/4 as
bitter as when I started.

Has anyone tried anything like this? Will it work, or am I off base?
Comments?


Steve
State of Franklin Homebrewers
Johnson City, Tennessee
http://home.att.net/~stjones1



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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 01:55:01 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: CF Chillers

S Wesley wrote:

>tube circumfrence and flow
>rate will affect chiller performance in a reliable mathematical way as
>long as k does not vary too much as the other quantities (most notably
>flow rate) are varied.

In fact the flow rates have a marked effect on the rate of transfer. As
you might expect turbulent flow is much more efficient at transferring
heat than laminar.

A few years back I looked at this problem and tried to come up with a
simplified approach to characterizing wort chiller performance. I came
up with a single parameter which I called "chilling capacity" and
symbolized by Q. Q is in gallons per hour and and represents the amount
of wort which can be cooled per unit time to within 3 F of the cooling
water temperature provided that the coolant flow rate is 5Q or better.
Chiller efficiency  (defined as the wort temperature drop in going
through the chiller divided by the difference between entering wort and
coolant temperatures)  can be determined  for arbitrary values of wort
and coolant flow, from a family of curves in which wort flow is plotted
against coolant flow, both normalized by  Q. The curves are parametric
in efficiency. They can be found in Brewing Techniques Vol. 4 No. 4
(July/Aug 1996) in an article starting on p 42.

Much of the appeal of this approach is lost because Q varies with
Reynolds number. Thus it increases with wort flow rate making the
chiller more efficient while at the same time the same time the faster
wort flow means less wort contact time in the chiller and thus less
efficiency. These two effects offset each other to some extent up to the
point where the wort flow is totally turbulent and increasing it does
not increase Q further. In practical application, this wort flow rate
would never be reached.

I experimented with 3 chillers and found Q linear with wort flow. The
first was the Hearts for which  Q = 1.1936f + 101.2 where f is the flow
rate in gallons/hour. The linear model is valid over flow rates of 24 -
110 gph) The second was 25 feet of 3/8 inch tubing coiled inside a 5
inch PVC pipe (the different form factor does not change the basics of
operation or the model). For this chiller  Q = 1.6521f + 19.8 (1 < f <
44). A third chiller was constructed of 50 feet of refrigeration tubing
in 50 feet of garden hose. For that chiller Q = 3.4481 + 21.6 ( 5 < f <
115).  These are graphed in the article.

Using the efficiency vs. normalized flow curves in the article with
these Q data and recognizing that Q is directly proportional to the
length of the chiller you ought to be able to come up with some rough
design parameters. Don't consider this and advert but for the price,
performance (can chill 30 gph with 98% efficiency) and lack of trouble
the Heart's is a pretty good deal IMO.



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:13:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: Momily Bullet

I can't stand it any longer!  So far, I've seen only one poster who
has actually done an experiment on all this cold/hot water silliness. 
I did one several years ago, on a bet with a friend who claimed that
boiling the gases out of water made it freeze faster.  One was cold
tap water, the other had just been boiled (at 2800 feet above sea
level).  We didn't take the temp of either, just set them outside in
identical glass bowls on the roof of the car, in well sub-freezing
weather.  The cold water froze faster.  A lot faster.  When it was
frozen solid, the other one was just starting to crystalize.

To those who keep posting the results at:
http://www.weburbia.com/physics/hot_water.html

Take the time to actually read it.  The title, "Hot Water Freezes
Faster than Cold!" is misleading if not downright dishonest.  The
"cold" water is 50C.  That's 122F.  Cold?  I don't think so.  A better
title would be "Extremely Hot Water Freezes Faster than Hot!"

tim
(Jeeze, what a grouch!)
==
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:53:17 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Sour malt

I just picked up 5# of Weissheimer acid malt, thinking I could use some of
it in a stout, and also a wit to get a lactic character without having to
screw around with a mini-sour mash, which is my usual procedure.

Then I realized maybe that's not what the acid malt is for. Does anyone
have any suggestions as to what this malt is used for, and how much,
percentage-wise should be used? TIA.



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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:58:57 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Wyeast 2278

I've been using Wyeast 2278, Czech Pils yeast this year for my lagers.  I
have noticed that while it seems to drop and clear quite quickly once
primary is over, in the bottle it seems to be rather powdery; it doesn't
really pancake very well.

Is this the usual experience for this yeast?

Flavor-wise, it seems quite nice; Some sulfur and diacetyl at first, which
very quickly (one,two days) goes away at warmer (60's) temp. Then, it seems
to have a soft, rich, dry maltiness. Would anyone else care to share their
experiences with this yeast?



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---