---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Lager yeast pitching temp (Dean Fikar)
  Re: Gypsum (Spencer W Thomas)
  Acid Malt & Mill Gaps (Dan Listermann)
  Phinicky Phloaters (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Gott mashing (Domenick Venezia)
  Idaho Legalization July 1 (Paul Gatza)
  Cornies for lagering / Beginners Guide to Mashing / Titletown Open (Matthew Arnold)
  Yeast & Beer matchup (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
  Dockage recconings (Joy Hansen)
  More yeast microphotographs (Michael A. Owings)
  Keg sanitation/Finings/CAP recipe (Rob.Green1)
  Gott coolers and the BB Snake ("Spies, Jay")
  UKG Drunk Monk Challenge - Results posted!! ("Formanek, Joe")
  Implosive carboys, (Dave Burley)
  Vacuum and Heat Sealer Recommendations (Joe Stone)
  RE: Lager Pitching Temp (John Wilkinson)
  IBU Predictions (WayneM38)
  mash pH / Lauter speed ("Bridges, Scott")
  Lager Temp & Trub Removal; Cream Ale, DMS & Wort Chillers; 2 Carboys (Ted McIrvine)
  BeerTrader glitches <sigh> (Alan Gilbert)
  Decline of homebrewing.... (WeizenGuy)
  More on the Janitor's opinion... (WeizenGuy)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Madison Homebrewers and Tasters Guild's 13th annual Big and Huge - 28
March 1999:  Rules and forms at www.globaldialog.com/madbrewers
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 07:18:27 -0600
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Lager yeast pitching temp

Troy writes:

> : Do I pitch the yeast at 60F and then throw it in the fridge to drop the
> temp? (Noonan warns of danger: "Controling the temperature at the beginning
> of fermentation is more important than controlling the temperature near the
> end of fermentation, because esters and fusel alcohols are largely produced
> when the yeast is respiring, during the lag and reproductive phases of
> fermentation." p173)
>
> Q: Or do I drop the temp in the fridge first and then pitch the yeast. (The
> danger here is obviously longer lag times - as we all know, one of the
> major causes of bad beer.)
>
> So, as you see, this is a confusion. What has worked for you? Private email
> is fine!
>
At the MCAB  I asked Chris White (owner
of White Labs Yeast) about this.  He's a big believer in propagating &
pitching lager yeast at about 70F and then bringing it down to lager
temps over the next 12-15 hrs.  He believes the yeast will get off to a
better start this way and feels that very few esters & fusels will be
generated during the first few hours after pitching.  That said, you
sure
would want the temp down in lager range once the yeast has stopped
propagating and started the fermentation process in earnest.

I'd be interested what others out there do in regard to pitching their
lager yeast.

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:41:35 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Gypsum 

>>>>> "William" == William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> writes:

    William> My local water (Kansas City area) starts out with 152 ppm
    William> sulfate (gypsum = calcium sulfate).  If I added one
    William> tablespoon gypsum for a 5 gallon brew I would have about
    William> 575 ppm sulfate.  There aren't many world class brewing
    William> waters with anything that approaches that level of
    William> sulfate.

Except, of course, Burton-on-Trent.  What style was Jim making?  Oh,
yeah, a pale ale.  'nuff said.  :-)

(Actually, I agree that blindly adding gypsum is not a good idea, but
I couldn't resist.)

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 10:50:09 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Acid Malt & Mill Gaps

Jeff Carlson asks about acidulated malt ( saurmalz ).  I have heard that
the malt is sprouted and reseeped at about 125'F to cause a lactic
fermentation and then kilned.  The result is a very strong lactic 
sourness.
 Taste one corn.  Take my word for it, you only need to taste one.  


I understand that it is made to reduce the pH in mashes without violating

German brewing laws.  


I use it at 3% ( .25 lbs in five gallons ) to give my stouts that 
Gunniess
tang.  It works great!  It is perfectly controllable, especially when
compared to sour mashing.  I would like to see if a pseudo Berliner Weiss

could be made from it.  It may have applications in pseudo lambics as 
well.

Rick Gerogette asks about mill gaps. We, operate a homebrew shop here in
Cincinnati.  We carry over 75 different grains and allow our customers to

mill their grains in either a Philmill or a two-roll prototype mill.  I 
see
a lot of different grains being crushed.   I won't debate that you can 
make
good beer at a constant "magical" gap setting.  We are talking about home

brew here.  But if you don't adjust the gap, you will get inconsistant
crushes when you move from one grain to another.  One of the prime 
reasons
that brewers get poor extractions is poor crushes.  This is especially
common amoung beginning all-grain brewers because of a fear of getting a
stuck mash.  Inconsistant crushes cannot be looked upon as an advantage. 

"Magical" gap settings will produce inconsistant crushes. 


On the other hand, if adjusting the mill is difficult and time consuming,

"magical" gap settings could be usefull, but don't be fooled into 
believing
that you will be getting consistant crushes if you use a variety of 
grains.

I crush by visual inspection never worrying about what the gap is.   
Almost
all corns need to be crushed and there should be few intact "ends" 
floating
around.  I tend to crush on the fine side and don't have problems with
stuck mashes or tannins.  


Dan Listermann       dan at listermann.com  or 72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:23:32 -0500
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: Phinicky Phloaters

Brent Dowell has had trouble with his 12in Phloater:
> It appears that while the 10inch one would maintain it's
> slightly domed shape when there was a cooler load of grain
> sitting on it, the 12 incher deformed and the bottom hole
> on the pickup tube was sucking the plastic bottom of the mash tun.

My 12in has a cross-drilled hole through the nylon elbow that allows phlow
when it's bottomed.  You may have an early version, or the hole was just
phorgotten.

As phor countering the phloating tendency, I have had good luck with just
holding the thing down with my mash paddle while I add grist to the
underlet water.  So phar, so good ...


Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 08:27:16 -0800
From: Domenick Venezia <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Gott mashing


The discussion about Gott cooler modifications and floating false
bottoms prompts me to post my 10 gal Gott modification.  It uses a
12" stainless steel perforated pizza pan, hence, it doesn't float.
Rather than use flared brass elbow fittings and copper tubing, you 
can use hose barbs and plastic tubing to connect the false bottom with
the bulkhead fitting.  Also the flared elbow can be fit into the center
of the pizza pan rather than the side as I have done.  I placed it at the
side because I didn't want to risk knocking it around while doughing in 
and stirring at the half-way point in the mash.  If I were to do it
again I think that I would still use flared fittings and copper tubing,
but I would fit into the center of the pizza pan.  Why?  It just seems
more "correct".

I preheat my Gott mash/lauter tun with a few gallons of 130F tap water
for about 10 minutes before dumping in ALL the strike water.  The grain
is stirred in while pouring it into the water.  I never have problems
with dry balls or clumping, and it only takes a few minutes. 

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, '227, any and all
nonsolicited commercial E-mail sent to this address is subject to a download
and archival fee of US$ 500.  E-mailing denotes acceptance of these terms.

- ---------- Forwarded message ----------

I purchased a 12" stainless steel unperforated pizza pan.  Taped 1/4"
graph paper on the pan and dented it every 1/2" with a drill set, then
drilled 1/8" holes at each set.  It was a pain.  You can purchase
perforated pizza pans and avoid all the drilling.

At a boating supply store I bought a 5/8" a brass bulkhead fitting.
This fitting is threaded internally for 3/8".  I also purchased a
hose barb with 3/8" threads, and 2 flare elbows.  I flared a short 
arc of copper tubing (6") and drilled a larger hole in the side of 
the pizza plate that a flare elbow threads into.  The other elbow 
is on the inside side of the bulkhead fitting.  The hose barb goes on 
the outside side of the bulkhead fitting.

(Alternatively, buy 3 hose barbs (bigger ID the better).  One attaches to
each side of the bulkhead fitting, the third attaches to a threaded
elbow to replace the flare elbow.  Then use plastic tubing, rather than
copper to join the pizza pan to the bulkhead fitting.  (see below))

About 3.25 (cut to fit) feet of 1" thick-walled tubing (Tygon in my 
case) was slit lengthwise and fit all around the edge of the pizza pan.  

The bulkhead fitting with external hose barb and internal flare elbow
fits into the spigot hole of the Gott.  The perforated pizza pan with
circumferential tubing seal and flare elbow lays upside down on the
bottom of the cooler and the short arc of flared tubing connects the 2
flare elbows.  Everything fits together finger tight.

            :                                                         :
            |<-- Inside wall of cooler                                |
            |      _____________________________________________      |
            |     /        Perforated Pizza Pan                 \     |
            | ___/                                               \___ |
            |/ o/\ <-- 1" thich-walled tubing (slit)             /\o \|
            |\___/                                               \___/|
            `------------ Bottom of cooler ---------------------------'







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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 09:47:56 -0700
From: Paul Gatza <paulg at aob.org>
Subject: Idaho Legalization July 1

Jennifer Graham has informed me that Idaho has legalized homebrewing.
The law adds the same protection for homebrewers that home
winemakers already enjoyed. Jennifer spearheaded the effort completely.
The AHA supported her effort in a minor way with a sample letter e-mail
campaign to AHA members in Idaho. Cheers for Jennifer and all
Idahomebrewers.

Here is her message to me:
Just letting you know that Frank Bruneel's statute change has
been signed by the Gov. of Idaho.
 http://www.idwr.state.id.us/oasis/H0113.html
and will go into effect 7/1/99
Jennifer


- -- 
Paul Gatza
Director
American Homebrewers Association	(303) 447-0816 x 122
736 Pearl Street			(303) 447-2825 -- FAX
PO Box 1679				paulg at aob.org -- E-MAIL
Boulder, CO 80306-1679			info at aob.org -- AOB INFO
U.S.A.					http://www.beertown.org -- WEB


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:48:45 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Cornies for lagering / Beginners Guide to Mashing / Titletown Open

I've got a doppelbock in the primary right now. In about a week or so I'm going
to transfer it to a secondary for lagering. I'd like to rack it to a corny keg
and forget about it for many months (yea, right). I know that corny kegs aren't
the ideal geometry for primary fermentation, but will it make a big difference
as a lagering tank?

- -----

Jim Cave sez:
>GET OUT THERE AND MASH, DAMN IT!!  IT'S SIGNIFICANTY CHEAPER AND THE 
>RESULTS ARE WORTH IT!!

I couldn't agree more. All the technical debates about mashing, while important
and interesting, make mashing out to be an extremely complicated process, which
it is not. Fortunately the members of my homebrew club (the Green Bay Rackers)
encouraged me, I tried it, and I got hooked. Yeah, it takes more time, but I
love the whole process. I'm actually brewing more and enjoying it more. Go fig.

Bottom line: if you're thinking about trying to mash, do it! Maybe your first
batch won't get a 48 in any competition, but who cares? Get the basic process
down and improve from there. Ask a local all-grain homebrewer when he's (or
she's) going to brew next and invite yourself over! You'll be glad you did.

- -----

The Green Bay Rackers will be holding their fifth annual Titletown Open
homebrew competition on Saturday, May 15. For more information, check out the
Titletown Open V page on our website at http://www.rackers.org/open.shtml This
is an AHA-sanctioned competition.

For more information or if you would like to judge, email me or our contest
czar, Mike Conard, at mconard at itol.com

P.S. I've got my AlK altbier on tap now. MAN that's good beer!!
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club
http://www.rackers.org        info at rackers.org


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:52:54 -0500
From: "Russell, D. A. (David)" <drussel3 at ford.com>
Subject: Yeast & Beer matchup

Is there any source (publication, web site, etc) that has some cross
references to commercial beers and their yeast?  What about info on
bottle sediment yeast?


From: Clifton Moore
> The word on the street is that Chimay uses a single yeast throughout 
>  the ferment.  I grew two starters of Chimay and Wyeast 1214 (Abbey)
> side by side and was taken by 
> their identical  characteristics.  I ended up pitching the 1214 and 
> have not gotten back to the Chimay.


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:29:54 -0500
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Dockage recconings

>------------------------------

>Speaking to dockage in malts, I note the small weevil holes in most
>specialty malts.  This means that the source malts were infested with
>insects and a high kiln temperature was required to salvage the malt!  I
>wonder what the kilned insect flavor/taste contributes to the beer
><<<<
Ronald replies:
>
>I stumbled upon a way to make the live critters show themselves.  I had
>placed about a ten pound paper grocery bag containing crushed malt into a 5
>gal. plastic bucket and sealed the bucket with it's cover (beating it down
>with a rubber mallet), two days later, upon opening the bucket, about a
>dozen or so critters were all over the white bucket walls.  They must have
>come up for air?, or moisture?

The following is presented as humor.  Don't worry, just get a home brew and
enjoy.

In my experience, I've seldom found critters in malt kilned at high
temperature.  In rolled grains, and in lower kilned malts.  IMHO these are
infected at the brew shop due to various situations.  One brew shop just
told me that the critters were only guaranteed to be absent for 30 days.  I
guess that's the lag time for egg hatching?  Besides, the critters just
float to the top of the mash.  They don't swim well without scuba gear, as
you observed!

When I worked for General Mills, many years ago, I checked dockage for
vermin by using a heat lamp on the screenings from a kicker.  Can't recall
how many live ones were allowed; however, many of the carloads of grains
(including barley) had to be fumigated with methylbromide.  A banned
practice today.  What chemical procedure is in use today?  Ahhh, irradiation
to the rescue!   Checked the glow of your spent malts in the dark of night
:)?  Have you wondered what effect the kilned insects have on the
nitrosamine content of your favorite malts?  Do insects/eggs glow after
irradiation?  I wonder about the flavor contribution of dioxins?

And to think that some home brewers are worried about plasticizers from
non-food grade plastics, lead and cadmium from brass plumbing, aluminum
causing Alzheimer's, or an imploding pirex carboys!

Prost





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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:00:36 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: More yeast microphotographs

I've posted a couple more of the same strain at 1000x (oil
immersion objective). These were pulled from a sample of fermenting
beer. The page also includes some other stuff (epithalial cells,
blood smears, etc. )

They can be seen at:

http://www.swampgas.com/brewing/hemo.html

***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:08:16 -0500
From: Rob.Green1 at firstunion.com
Subject: Keg sanitation/Finings/CAP recipe


Many thanks to those hbd'ers (Chris Schmidt, John Wilkinson, Ken Pegram,
Todd Larson) who responded to my inquiry on corny keg sanitation and the evils
of bleach.  Fortunately I had diluted the solution enough where no damage was
done.  I did however notice some rust on the inside of the draft and beverage
posts on one of the kegs when I took them apart.  I took a green scrubber and
cleaned it up as much as possible and lubed with keglube.  I don't know if
this
was due to the bleach solution or was a pre-existing condition.

The general consensus was to use TSP  at  5 tbl per 5 gal hot water to clean.
Then follow with a iodophor solution of 2 tbl per 5 gals for a 20 minute soak,
making sure to push the valves to get the sanitizer up in the pick up and
gas tubes.  Question:  Does a TSP solution or Iodophor solution corrode SS?
I have also noticed a phosphorous-free version of TSP called 'TS-Free' or
something like that, would this be a safe substitute for the real TSP.  I
didn't
know so I looked around other hardware stores until I found the real McCoy.

On the subject of finings - My local HB shop recommended polyclar in the
secondary for 3-4 days and then gelatin in the keg to clear the beer.  I will
say that I have some of the clearest beer I've ever made but it seems to be
on the thin side when compared to the same beer I brewed and bottle
conditioned 3 months ago.   Does anyone have an opinion (there's a loaded
question) about the use of fining agents and any detrimental effect on the
different styles of beer?  i.e. is it acceptable when attempting a lager but
not so
when making a porter?  German wheats would be exempt from this treatment
of course.  That reminds me it's about time to brew a wheat for summer.

CAP Recipe - I have seen several recipes for pre-prohibition CAPs and am
interested in brewing one, especially now that I have lagering facilities.
The
only problem is that these recipes are exclusively all-grain and I have not as
yet taken up that religion.  I am looking for an extract version of a CAP if
any
one has come up with one.  This raises a question about flaked maize.  Can it
be used in an extract recipe?  If so how would one go about using it?  If a
partial
mash is requried to use the maize what is the barest minimum of equipment
needed to accomplish the task?

Janitors, Sorry for the length, hopefully this post will stir some ongoing
dialogs.

Rob Green

Live to Brew....Brew To Live




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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 12:13:43 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Gott coolers and the BB Snake

All -

Hmmm . . . it seems every couple of months this Gott cooler conversion /
phloater thing keeps coming up, so here I go again rehashing an old post.

In HOMEBREW Digest #2744, Fri 19 June 1998, I posted about the BB Snake
thingy that I made for the 10 gallon Gotts.  Scott Moore recently posted
that he uses one successfully.  Cool.  Glad to hear it !!  If you want the
complete post, the above cite gets you there.

WRT Gott conversions and EM/Phils comparisons, I'd have to say that in terms
of ease, the EM is probably the way to go, but if you build my BB Snake, the
Phils works flawlessly (insert shameless ego gratification here . . .)
Almost 9 months and about 18 batches later, I've never seen a single husk
make it through the works.  Also, I add ALL the strike water before grain 1
ever goes in the cooler.  Adding the grain first will give you a real tired
arm breaking up all the doughballs, and the strike water/grist/strike
water/grist thing seems just too laborious for a lazy sot such as myself.

The spigots on the Gotts just screw out, and I bought a cooler bulkhead
fitting from HopTech (NA, yadda yadda) that seals well and accepts some
vinyl tubing that goes to the elbow.  Eventually, I'd like to step up to a
1/2" ID elbow and some braided 1/2" tube to a 1/2" ball valve, and make the
whole deal into a RIMS type MLT.  I'll do that whenever I stop being lazy.
;-)

Anyway, coolers maintain the temps well (provided that you are able to
accurately calculate the temperature of your strike water -- does anyone
know how to do this, I'd like to hear some discussion...)  Sorry, couldn't
resist!

Later,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:57:12 -0600
From: "Formanek, Joe" <Jformanek at griffithlabs.com>
Subject: UKG Drunk Monk Challenge - Results posted!!

The Drunk Monk Challenge, held at Founders Hill Brewing Company in 
Downers Grove, IL, and hosted by the Urban Knaves of Grain homebrew 
club, is now history!  Thanks to all judges and entries who all helped 
to make this a very successful competition, as well as the great 
multitude of business and individuals who helped sponsor the 
competition through donations.  We couldn't have done it without 
you!.
There were 233 entries total

A few results:
First BOS - Shane Coombs, with his "Sharico Grand Cru" Flanders Brown
Second BOS - Scott Clement with his "Raspberry White Grape Mead"
Third BOS - Mark and Kristine Kellums with their Kolsch

In the menace of the Monastery special category
1st place - Mike Uchima with his "Trappist Ale #1" Belgian Dubbel
2nd place - Jeff Sparrow with his "St. Remy's Abbaye Ale" Dark Strong 
Belgian Ale
3rd place - Dan Slosser with his "Belgian Abbey Ale" Dark Strong 
Belgian Ale

For complete results,  see the Drunk Monk Challenge website,
 http://www.synsysinc.com/srcoombs/ukgdmc.htm, or the UKG
website, http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/stmckenna/ukg.html.



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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:22:20 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Implosive carboys,

Brewsters:

Ross Reid has used a vacuum pump to move beers around
in his glass carboys and wonders about the safety.  


A couple of comments:

1) glass carboys vary by the source ( thickness, annealing),
construction (ribs or not, type of glass, shape of the
bottom, etc.),  by their history ( scratches, dings, heating)

2) Just because no problem has been encountered does
not mean Ross won't have one.

Simply transferring from one place to another will not place
a high vacuum on the glass walls, however, as Ross pointed
out, he sometimes gets as high as 1 atm when transferring
from one floor to another.  


In my opinion it is unsafe to do this without some kind of
substantive protection.  I could suggest a covered wooden
box into which the bottle under vacuum is placed so that if
it implodes all you would have is a mess.  Safety glasses
will not protect the rest of your body.  Freshly broken glass is
incredibly sharp. So much so, that freshly broken glass is
used in microtoming tissue into thin slices for microscopic work.

Certainly, I would not use the bottle bare. Even in a laboratory
using glass pieces under vaccuum ( which were <designed>
 for vacuum use, N.B.) we always use a heavy form of tough
tape to wrap them securely.

I once brought a carboy home from the HB store and noticed
a hairline crack running between the ribs of the glass. It did not
appear to be from striking, but due to poor annealing.  Had
I put that one under vaccuum, I would likely had had a shatter
event.  Point is you never know when you are using a piece of
equipment for a purpose for which it was not intended.

Pyrex glass may or may not be stronger than soft glass, but it
likely will have less thermal stresses due to its lower thermal
coefficient of expansion. We still wrap it up. Remember the
larger the radius of curvature, the weaker the glass to
deformation.  Put another way - the bigger the bottle,
the higher the risk of implosion.

Be safe and have fun. Both are possible.

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

 


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 11:20:54 -0800
From: Joe Stone <joestone at cisco.com>
Subject: Vacuum and Heat Sealer Recommendations

HBD,

I'm looking for a recommendation on a vacuum sealer or a heat sealer.  I
buy most of my grain in 50 pound bags.  I currently repackage the grain
in zip-lock bags.  I'm considering a vacuum or heat sealer.  More
importantly, I always seem to buy whole hops in six ounce packages.  I'd
love to be able to repackage the "left-overs" using a vacuum sealer or
consider buying whole hops in bulk.

I poked around the Internet and found a few vacuum sealer models in the
$200 - $300 range,

        Magic Vac    70-FS    Champion    $259
        Magic Vac    70-FSMAXIMA    Maxima    $329

And these models "as seen on TV",

    Foodsaver    #2 Professional    $299
    Foodsaver    Compact II    $179
    Foodsaver    Deluxe    $199

A more cost-effective alternative would seem to be a heat sealer,

    TISH100    4"    140W    $69
    TISH200    8"    180W    $89
    TISH300    12"    200W    $125

Hoptech offers an 8" Rival Micro-Seal for $21.

Does anyone have experience with any of these models or with any other
model of vacuum or heat sealer?

Most of my local homebrew supply retailers use a heat sealer.  This
would seem adequate for grain.  And with whole hops I suspect that you
can squeeze most of the air out of the bag before heat sealing.  Can a
homebrewer justify the added cost (> $100) of a vacuum sealer over a
heat sealer?

You can E-mail me directly.  If others are interested, I can append a
summary.

Thanks,

Joe



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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 13:25:53 -0600
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Lager Pitching Temp

Troy Hager asked if anyone used a settling tank as suggested by Noonan.
I drain my chilled wort to sanitized buckets and put them in the freezer
to settle and get to the pitching temp I desire.  I even do it with ales,
although it doesn't take as long to cool so I will take them out of the
freezer and let them settle longer, if necessary, without further cooling.
I then siphon into the fermenter, leaving the sediment behind.  I do loose
some beer this way but I like the clear wort going to the fermenter and I
have had pretty good luck producing clear beers.  I chill to about 44F for
lager and 64F for ales before pitching.  Of course, the starter needs to be
at about the same temperature.
Troy wrote:

>Q: Or do I drop the temp in the fridge first and then pitch the yeast. (The
>danger here is obviously longer lag times - as we all know, one of the
>major causes of bad beer.)

I worried about this but I am not sure I agree that longer lag times really
are a major cause of bad beer.  If sanitation is good I don't think a couple
of hours lnger to pitching is going to hurt.  It hasn't hurt me but I know
my sample is small and may be meaningless.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas



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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:32:19 EST
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: IBU Predictions

>>Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 14:36:28 -0600
 Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>  writes:

Another interesting result was how far off predictive formulae were for
actual IBU levels.  One thing I noticed was the wide range of the
predictions.  Another observation was that most of the formulae's predicted
IBUs were low, which makes me suspicious.  The article points out that the
hops AA% was provided by the supplier and not independently determined, so
it could be that the hops were actually stronger than advertised.  Due to
this error, I don't think any of the formulae were proven or disproven.
Any thoughts?

Greg>>

This is my second season using my HEMAN RIMS system.  It is big fun brewing
with my brew toy.  I have been able to standardize most aspects of my brew
day:
I can hit strike temps and step mash boosts temps within a degree or two
everytime.  Sparge rates and brew kettle evaporation rates can be repeated
easily.  Run off SG can be easily read with my trusty hydrometer.  I can use
commercial products to compare color targets.

My final IBU's predictions are just that. Predictions. I prefer hop pellets
and use hop bags. Do I add 15% for pellet use and subtract 10% for hop bag
use?  I have a custom built brew kettle with an extra heavy duty bottom for
even heat distribution.  Do I add 5% for the very vigorous rolling boil ?

ProMash and Suds97 have different IBU calculation formulas. Promash even
'ages' your hops in storage for you. It is interesting to run one's favorite
recipes through these software programs to get a feel for the different IBU
predictions using different formulas.
My solution will be to have two or three of my stock batches tested for IBU's
by a reputable lab and work backwards from that point to measure 'my' system's
utilization.  My local tech school hopes to have an affordable IBU testing
program in the fall of 1999.  

Until then it is just guess work.

My question to the HBD:

What are some of the most useful steps to get the IBU predictions "In the ball
park, aka in style"?

Wayne
Big Fun Brewing
Milwaukee 




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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:57:19 -0500
From: "Bridges, Scott" <ScottBridges at sc.slr.com>
Subject: mash pH / Lauter speed


Jim Cave writes:
>	...John Palmer is of course right, again, in the technical sense.
Perhaps 
>I am lucky with my water: hardness 2-4 ppm and pH 6.8.  However, in the 
>days when I actually worried about such things, if my pH paper could be 
>relied on, the indicated mash pH was under 5, and supposedly suboptimal.  I

>never bother taking pH's any more.
>
>	One of the topics that had me worried forever when I first started
mashing 
>was the subject of water chemistry and mash pH.  However, the local that I 
>knew who were doing it, never bothered about it and consequently neither do

>I.  I just would like the beginner out there to give mashing a go, 
>regardless of their water chemistry.  Then discuss your result with a more 
>experienced brewer and judge and twick the recipe from there.

Jim,
I think its a fairly simple thing to check your mash pH.  Even if you don't
have precision, it's important to have an understanding of your pH, and more
importantly your water chemistry.  When I first began all-grain, I failed to
consider this fact.  I am one of the unfortunate brewers who have water high
in carbonates.  Missing this one piece of (for me) critical information, I
made some very astringent beer until I traced the source of my problem.  So
while you are correct that for most brewers, this is not a big problem, for
some it's a critical factor to understand.  Armed with this knowledge, you
can avoid making astringent beer.  

- ----------------------

Jack Schmidling writes:
>"Curt Speaker" <SPEAKER at SAFETY-1.SAFETY.PSU.EDU>
>
>" Dan mentioned last week that if your lauter/sparging process 
>is taking 30 minutes or less, you are leaving something behind...
>
>Simply proves why this forum generates so much high quality debate. 
>
>I used to throttle back the EM to force about 60 minutes sparge
>time.  Since I installed the EMII in my mash tun several years
>ago, I have been draining the kettle as fast as it will drain 
>and have not noticed the slightest change in extraction. Not 
>only is this less than 30 minutes but I make 10 gallon batches.

As much as I hate to also disagree with my friend and fraternity brother
Curt, I have not found this to be true in my set up either.  I've heard the
commandment, "thou shalt lauter for 60 minutes or leave sugar behind."  My
experience mirrors Jack's.  I usually sparge for less than 30 minutes, and
have no problem with extraction.  I have a RIMS and have wondered if all the
recirculating perhaps makes the sparging more efficient.


Scott Bridges
Brewing in Columbia, SC





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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:37:51 -0800
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Lager Temp & Trub Removal; Cream Ale, DMS & Wort Chillers; 2 Carboys

> From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
> Subject: Lager Pitching Temp
> 
> Fellow HBDers,
> 
> After an Alt and a Kolsch, I plan on doing a full lager. I have read Noonan
> (NBLB) and the posts here but still have a couple nagging confusions. First
> of all, Noonan suggests, "Where practical, it is advisable to separate the
> chilled wort from the cold break in a settling tank." p.170
> 
> Q: How many of you find this "practical" and do it?
> 
> He also states, "For lager beers, yeast is generally pitched into wort that
> is at or near the lower end of the intended fermentation temperature range.

I rack a finished lager into a carboy and chill the carboy overnight
until it is down near 40 degrees.  Then I rack the unfermented wort off
the cold break into another fermenter and pitch my yeast.  This solves
both the temperature problem and gets rid of all the crap that you don't
want in a lager fermentation.

Someone else recently inquired about DMS in a cream ale.  The resident
rocket scientists forget to ask whether this brewer had used a wort
chiller and had a slow cooling.  I think using a wort chiller is the
single biggest improvement that a beginning brewer can make.  Lager malt
and covered boils can produce DMS, although I do both often and never
get DMS unless I'm doing a Bock in which one wants a tiny trace.

I came of beer-drinking age in the land of Gennessee Cream Ale, and a
trace of DMS (sort of like sweet creamed corn) is tasteable in the
style.

For those who don't want to lose beer through a blow-off hose, try using
two carboys.  This also has the benefit of giving your primary
fermentation more head space, and when you rack the five gallons into a
secondary, the head space vanishes, just the way one would want it to
do.

Ted
- -- 
McIrvine at Ix.Netcom.Com
College of Staten Island/CUNY
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/academia/programs/mus.html
http://www.csi.cuny.edu/arts/calendar.html


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:00:52 -0800
From: Alan Gilbert <alan_gilbert at mac.symantec.com>
Subject: BeerTrader glitches <sigh>

Sorry about this, but BeerTrader is in its infancy...thanks to everyone 
who has signed up for your support...

Due to my cable company suddenly changing the ip address of my cable 
modem (doesn't happen often, but it did last night) BeerTrader will 
probably bounce email.  For this reason I have set up alternate email 
accounts until such time as I can get a more reliable ip service (DSL 
perhaps?).

Anyway, until further notice, to subscribe to BeerTrader digest send 
email to btrequest@ fnmail.com, with the following in the body of the 
message (subject unimportant):

subscribe digest beertrader


To post to the BeerTrader digest (once you have subscribed) send email to 
beertrader at fnmail.com.



Sorry for any inconvenience.  It should be working again by tonight 
(Thursday).

 -Alan
panheadman at mediaone.net


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:23:51 EST
From: WeizenGuy at aol.com
Subject: Decline of homebrewing....

Seems our HBD Janitor is theorizing about what's at the root of the decline of
our hobby at his OTHER job on aol. Thought you might find this interesting.

Posted w/o his permission, but I figure he'll can the article if it bothers
him!

The Weizenguy


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Funny thing, this. As with many "craft hobbies," they swell and then crash to
the breakers. Some return for another roll, others die out completely.
(Anybody remember glass cutting in the '70s?)

Economics is the problem here. Many existing home brew retailers saw the tide
roll up and decided it was to be the eternal tsunami. Some reacted by
increasing inventories and investigating new products. They are to be
commended. Others hunkered back and figured you'd take whatever they had to
offer. Some raised prices, some lowered. The tide grew higher. No-one noticed
the shore was coming up. Many new shops opened up hoping to glean a share of
the
rising surf. The tide surged still higher. And the ranks of those riding the
surf swelled as well.

While all this was going on, another swell was rising in yet another ocean of
beer: microbreweries and brewpubs were flourishing all over the country. So
much so that many "one beer for all" megabreweries were sent scampering to
their pilot breweries in order to get in on the wave with something of flavor
and substance. Still others went about like large sharks snapping up the
smaller, tastier fish in buyouts. Good beer was abundant, but somewhat
pricey. The sheer number of competing breweries and pubs began driving the
prices of good beer lower and lower until...

 ...both waves crashed into opposite sites of an island known as consumer
desires and motivations. The economy in the US what it is today, we can all
pretty much get whatever beer we want fairly affordably. For many, this killed
the motivation to brew it for themselves. Face it: how many times have you
heard someone in describing their craft say that they can brew it cheaper, or
they can brew what they can't buy? We all have. I believe I've even said
it a few times myself. Now, take all those people out of the pool of those
buying home brewing supplies, and you see suppliers dropping like flies (and
it's not the "backdoor dealings" that hurt suppliers -- that's just whining.
Show me a brewpub or micro that can afford to give away or co-buy in volumes
high enough to threaten a shop?) 

Add to this a national organization supposedly dedicated to the promotion of
home brewing which does absolutely nothing of value for its membership. Have
this same money-grubbing organization attempt to set up organizations internal
to itself to compete against existing organizations which support the
suppliers and those dedicated to appreciating and judging beers, further
fracturing the home brewing community....

Yes, it's ugly. And yes: we're the only ones that can stem the tide and turn
the flow. I was once told that I was a disease -- that wherever I went people
were "infected" with home brewing. (I thought it quite a compliment :-) This
is how we need to be. A carrier for the brewing bug. We each need to do what
we can to "spread the word." Demonstrations at your local supplier. Public
services carried out by your local club. Person to person
conversation, sampling, teaching. Local newspaper stories. Web pages. Beer
festivals. 

Stop in at your local shop and ask how you can help him stay open. Maybe
you've noticed some particularly nagging thing about his shop he may not be
aware of, but that all your friends comment on. Let him know so he can fix it.
Offer to help her build an order of things you know will sell to you and your
friends. I'm not suggesting that you go in there and be a free stock boy
(unless you want to), but offer some assistance to help keep the place
open.

And be an evangelist for the craft. It'd be nice to be able to go door to door
preaching your message as some religious groups do, but that'd be a bit silly.
No. Tell you co-worker about brewing. Invite a few over some weekend for a
brew-be-cue: brew some beers and cue up some food. Be sure to have plenty of
good home brew around to whet their appetite for more! There's plenty other
things to do such as this, too! Be creative! Spread the word!

Enough ranting! I've a family to tend to...

See ya!
Pat Babcock
aka Brew Beerd `{(P-{>
AOL FDN Homebrewing Questions and Answers Maven


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:29:29 EST
From: WeizenGuy at aol.com
Subject: More on the Janitor's opinion...

This is good stuff! Same story as before. No permission asked for, but I'm
sure he'll kill it if it's a problem.

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
clsaxer at aol.com (CLSAXER) writes:

>The demise of homebrewing?
>I couldn't say.  About a year ago or so I'd had enough of the egos and
>competitiveness in the national & local homebrewing collectives and dropped
>out of participating in them.  (However there is a club in N.O.LA that I
>still enjoy being with.)
>I still brew beer and make mead.  I just keep to myself, and share it with
>friends and family.  I got really tired of the socialistic attitude of, "You
>owe it to those coming up to teach them all you know."  Excuse me?  

I don't really consider it socialistic, though it could be construed that way.
I started my brewing career (many have heard this before. Page down to the
next paragraph...) at the tender young age of 12. It was a science project on
yeast and fermentation. It was also very illegal as I was 12 in 74. Anyway, it
captured my attention, and with the support of my parents, I "pressed on."
There were no books, no newsgroups, no "home brew shops" (a few good
wine making shops, though...). Good ingredients and good information were
pretty hard to come by. I do this (AOL), the HBD and my pages solely because
it was something I *could* do - something I could offer from all of that. My
reason for doing this is the difficulty I had in getting quality information.
Not socialism; just a tad of altruism. 

As you read on, you'll understand, too, how you don't owe it to those coming
up behind you. No, quite the contrary: you owe it to yourself. Read on,
brothers and sisters! Read on...

As I implied above, there's a SELFISH reason for pushing the craft, my friend!
Consider this: if the number of brewers continues to drop off, so will the
volume of sales in your local home brew shops. They close. 

Pickings get slim. Prices go up. 

Distributors are then hit by the reduction in market, and they shrink and
close causing more home brew shops to close. 

Pickings get slimmer. Prices go higher. 

It's an economics thing. We're slipping out of the "economies of scale" realm
of economics down to the other side of supply and demand. For the short term,
if this trend continues, supply will outstrip demand and, as those shops
continue closing, you'll enjoy low prices on old ingredients -- "close-outs."
Once that trend flattens out, and the supply base stabilizes at the smaller
level, the supply will, at best, meet the demand. More than likely,
it'll turn slightly in the favor of demand outstripping supply. 
Prices go up even higher. 

One other nasty thing that usually occurs in such situations: since your
market is not high demand, it has little buying power. With little buying
power, it's hard to enforce any demand for quality. And the malts get stale,
the extracts get doped with sugars and you have little say in the matter if
you want to brew at all. Dollars to doughnuts, companies such as Whitelabs,
Wyeast, YCKCo, et al. will not be able to stay afloat in the home brewing
market, and the quantum leaps made in yeast culture quality in our market will
be lost...

Pretty bleak looking picture, hey? But not unrealistic. THIS is why you want
to push the craft by attracting and teaching new brewers: to keep prices down
and quantity and quality of supply up! Plain ol' economics.

Now, brother and sister brewers! Go out and spread the good beer! Gather a NEW
flock o' brewers to the bossom of the burbling carboy! Amen! I say: AMEN!

(Hand-stands and cartwheels up the aisle are frowned upon. Please quietly
leave the hymnals in the pew as you leave the building...)

See ya!
Pat Babcock
aka Brew Beerd `{(P-{>
AOL FDN Homebrewing Questions and Answers Maven


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