---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Guinness/real ale type taps ("Steve Ashton")
  Reference beers ("Steve Ashton")
  Fl Breweries (Jason.Gorman)
  Soapy taste (Nathan Kanous)
  1st Annual Palmetto State Open (hdowda)
  Diacetyl - blind leading the blind ("Spies, Jay")
  Sam Adams Spring Ale (Peter Bertone)
  re:Yeast Storage on Slant --- Age? (Michael A. Owings)
  Poor Extraction Causes (Dan Listermann)
  learning about diacetyl (Jim Layton)
  Revisions to the HBD server... (Homebrew Digest)
  RE: Soapy Taste (Robert Arguello)
  Aluminum Pot Fittings, 'Dirty' Burner Grates ("Daske, Felix")
  Re: big brew 99  milk stout (Matthew Arnold)
  Steeping is not Mashing (Charley Burns)
  Re: Homebrew judging - Why (Tyce Heldenbrand)
  Bottle carbonation problem (Paul Shick)
  Seneory Evaluations of Beers, Pumping MT/LT to Kettle (Joe Rolfe)
  Beer characteristics & commercial examples ("George De Piro")
  Re: homebrew competitions (Scott Abene)
  chicory (Scott Murman)
  Re: Westvleteren Yeast (Jim Wallace)
  Brewpubs in Cambridge, MA ("Alan McKay")
  Judging & Contests, Joke (Dave Burley)
  Water Softeners and Brewing ("George, Marshall E.")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:08:11 -0500
From: "Steve Ashton" <sashton at metlife.com>
Subject: Guinness/real ale type taps



"Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 16:58:39 -0500
From: "Michael Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Guinness/real ale type taps

Is there a Guinness type tap, or a tap for a beer engine, or a sparkler tap
that is designed to draw atmospheric nitrogen into the beer by a venturi
tube or the like?  If not, is there a style of tap that might be modified to
do the job?  I would like to dispense ale with CO2 and have the tap "suck"
air (mostly nitrogen) into the beer stream.  Any ideas?
Cheers,
Mike, In the Shenandoah Valley, VA."

Why would you want to do this? The point of these taps is to release CO2 from
solution and create a thick dense head, not to aerate the beer.

Steve Ashton




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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:14:56 -0500
From: "Steve Ashton" <sashton at metlife.com>
Subject: Reference beers



Try Red Hook ESB for Diacetyl. It should be unmistakable, Rolling Rock is great
for DMS, and Bud is full of Acetaldehyde. I've never noticed Diacetyl in Pilsner
Urquell, it's known for being skunky (mercaptan) in its bottled form.

Steve Ashton




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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:26:00 -0500
From: Jason.Gorman at steelcase.com
Subject: Fl Breweries

I am going to be in the Ft. Meyers FL area.  Blah. Blah. Blah.  You know the
story.  Are there any good brewpubs in the area?


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:47:52 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Soapy taste

Extract or all-grain?  I believe that soapy tastes can come from lipids in
the wort as a result of sparging problems.  If you don't recirculate to get
clear run-off, you can get these lipids into the boil and subsequently into
the fermentation.

I tried a new "pizza pan" false bottom that didn't have enough open area
and whenever I tried to sparge, the grainbed would compact and stop flow.
If I opened the ball valve all the way, it would sparge, but wouldn't clear
with such a high flow rate.  I gave up and ran it anyway.  Can you say soap
box porter?

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:10:28 -0500
From: hdowda <hdowda at axs2k.net>
Subject: 1st Annual Palmetto State Open

First Annual Home Brew Competition

When and Where: April 10, 1999. Judging begins at 10:30, Beulah's Bar
and Grill,  902-C Gervais St., Columbia, SC.

Entries: All categories and subcategories, as outlined in 1999 AHA style
guidelines, will be accepted for competition. Where
the number of entries is too small to form a separate class, they will
be grouped with similar beers, so far as possible, for
evaluation. The submitter is responsible for entering in the correct
category. Three (3), 10 - 16 oz., plain brown or green
capped bottles are requested. Bottles with printing or raised logos
(other than "lot numbers") are not allowed. Any logo or
writing on caps must be covered with an opaque marker. Swing capped
bottles will not be judged but the beer will be consumed. Download entry
forms from:

http://www.axs2k.net/fatcat/psbentr1.htm

Deadlines: Entries should be shipped to arrive between March 22 and
April 6 (paperwork and checks). Shipped beers
must be received by Tuesday, April 6. Entrants may hand deliver
pre-entered brews to Beulah's by 8:30 AM on the day of the competition.
Brewers hand delivering, are solely responsible for the condition of
their beer at judging.

Judges: Judging will be by BJCP judges, so far as they are available,
and knowledgeable beer lovers experienced in evaluating
beer. The participation of any judge will be appreciated, as will
volunteers to serve as stewards. We still need a few judges, especially
for lager classes. If you can help, please contact
chatgros at mailexcite.com. Judges are welcome to enter beers, but they may
not judge a flight containing their entry.

Awards: Ribbons will be given for first, second, and third in each
category, and first, second, and third best of show awards
will be made. Many companies have donated super awards for winners.  The
Award donors are listed at:

http://www.axs2k.net/fatcat/donors.htm

Fees: Entries are $5.00 each. Make checks payable to Jim Griggers, with
"Palmetto State Brewers" written on the memo line.

Contacts:

Competition coordinator: Jonney Grunnet (803) 808-9415
(grunnet at engr.sc.edu)

Ship to: Harold Dowda, 1416 Waterwood Dr., Columbia, SC 29212 (803)
781-6596 (N) (803) 935-7658 (D) chatgros at mailexcite.com






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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:56:01 -0500
From: Jeff Knaggs <jak at absoft.absoft.com>

Subject: MI Beer Bars

Two nice starting points for wide coverage of Michigan beer are:

   http://www.phd.msu.edu/bice/beer/brew.html

and

   http://www.michiganbeerguide.com

both sites are full of links to other MI sites.


Jeff Knaggs


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:58:47 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: Diacetyl - blind leading the blind

All -

Thomas Murray asked in #2990 about the taste of diacetyl, better ways to
describe it, and commercial examples.

Since traffic is relatively light, I'll take a stab at it.

(( QDA approaching . . . duck and cover ))

I'm not certified as a BJCP judge (though it's an avenue I'd like to
explore), so these are only my lay impressions.  I have picked up diacetyl
in several examples of local beer (most notably and most commonly in a beer
called Clipper City Gold - **Thomas, being in NJ, this may be available to
you**).  It is normally a wonderful pale ale with a distinct (Willamette?)
hop nose.  Several examples I've gotten, however, are chock full 'o
diacetyl.  I normally initially notice a lack of hop aroma in diacetyl laden
beers that normally have it.  Just a datapoint.  The immediate taste
impression I get is a sense of the beer being overly sweet and malty, with
an almost viscous, oily mouthfeel.  The "malty" flavors become very thick
after a second or two, and are not at all "biscuity" or "toasty" like we
expect cereal grain malt flavors to be, but rather flat and buttery.
Depending on severity, the flavors can be almost sweet.  The sweetness is
not like the malty sweetness of a bock, though; it has a buttery, fatty
undertone.  These flavors tend to crowd out the hop bitterness.  In extreme
examples (we had one at a club competition), the aftertaste can be
*distinctly* butterscotch, to the point of being almost candy-like.  IMBR,
diacetyl is caused by introduction of O2 post-fermentation, and can also be
caused by bacteria in some cases.

HTH,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:08:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Peter Bertone <bertone at physics.unc.edu>
Subject: Sam Adams Spring Ale


  A while back someone asked for opinions about whether Sam Adams Spring
Ale fit the stye of a koelsch. One of my office mates is a German who did
his Ph.D. in Cologne. I thought it would be fun to give him a bottle of
SASA to evaluate. I was very doubtful that he would find SASA to resemble
a real koelsch. He was even more doubtful, and he had a good laugh about
the notion of a koelsch-style ale being a "Spring" ale. The surprise was
that both he and his wife found that SASA does taste like koelsch. There
were no qualifications in what he said; "It tastes like koelsch". However,
he also said that SASA is darker than koelsch and the head retention and
density are also much higher. (He claims a dense, long lasting head is not
present in a real koelsch.) He told me that he was even more surprised
that SASA tasted like koelsch when he saw that it looked more like German
Pils. 
  This person also grew up in Duesseldorf so I plan to run a few
iterations of homebrewed altbier by him.

Cheers,
Peter Bertone
Chapel Hill, NC





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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:14:12 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (Michael A. Owings)
Subject: re:Yeast Storage on Slant --- Age?


> This is one of the few posts I have had in the last few years of
> lurking. I have a Brewer's Resource large slant of yeast that I bought
> about a year ago. I used it once and resealed it with Paraseal and
> have kept it refrigerated since. Question is should I just through it
> out, Use it or what?

Don't throw it out. The yeast may well be viable. Actually you want to
make sure that:

a) The yeast is still viable
b) The yeast still has desired fermentation characteristics.

I'd recommend re-streaking the yeast on to a new blank slant or better
yet a petri dish. If the new colony takes, take a loopful and start as
usual. Wrap the slant or dish in parafilm/tape and refrigerate for
later use. Build your stater up to a quart or so. Make sure it is
hopped at least lightly -- you want your starter to be fairly
beer-like because you're going to be evaluating it for off flavors and
aromas.  Smell and taste the finished starter. If it seems OK, the
yeast is still good. If it refused to attenuate, or tastes rancid or
otherwise nasty, throw it out along with the saved yeast.

I have found that while yeast can often survive long periods of
storage, they may mutate over time and take on undesirable
fermentation characteristics. This is especially true of lager yeasts.
The only way to really tell is to build a starter and taste/smell it.
Note that starters are always a _bit_ nasty -- after all, you ferment
them rather warm, etc. Just look for really _obvious_ bad aromas or
tastes.
***********************
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change.
The courage to change the things I can. *** And the wisdom to 
hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they pissed 
me off ***


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:16:50 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Poor Extraction Causes

Evidently the last portion of my Friday posting got lost in space.  I 
will
try to pick it up at a point that makes sense:

I think that we can agree that uncrushed malt would give very poor
extraction.  I am not so sure that you will agree that floured malt will
give the greatest extraction, but let us assume that you would.  If one
were to plot a scale of "crush" against  extraction, as one progressed 
from
no crush to flour the extraction rate would increase.  The line would
probably look like x = tan y or a curve similar to landau bars on a 
hearse.
 The object would be to find a point on the curve that gave the greatest
extraction before lautering problems set in due to the lack of filter
material.  This curve can be found. 


 I have started to do a sort of "congress mash" using different crushes
gauged with standard sieves.  The preliminary data is starting to show 
this
curve.  The grist remaining on the #10 screen seems to be a good 
indicater
of extraction since it retains the endosperm that is still attached to 
the
hulls such as the ends of the corns which are not fully exposd to the
water. The gap of the mill can also be used to plot extraction.  One malt

could be compared to others to see what effect changes in gap setting 
would
cause. 


The prototype mill that I am using has two 1.5" diameter rolls with 
coarse
pitch knurles and it has  full face adjustment ability of .016" per turn 
of
the knob.  I can repeat gaps from touching to beyond the width of any 
corn
easily.  This could be a fun club project.  


"Old and stale" malt is not the cause of poor extraction.  Poor crushes 
are
the primary cause of poor extraction.

Dan Listermann        dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:20:22 -0600
From: Jim Layton <a0456830 at rtxmail1.rsc.raytheon.com>
Subject: learning about diacetyl

There have been a couple of recent posts asking what commercial beers
exhibit an obvious diacetyl flavor. I'd like to suggest a different way
for brewers, or other beer lovers, to educate their palate. Try
stewarding a first round flight of pilsner or German light lager at a
homebrew competition.  There will probably be at least one entry with a
distinct diacetyl component, as well as other entries without. A
competent judge can assist you in picking out this flavor. Most of the
folks I have judged with know diacetyl, a few did not. Pick your mentor
well.

I agree that PU has some diacetyl in it, but its at a low enough level
that it can be missed. It is fairly common to find it at a higher level
in home brewed lagers. Once you have tasted the extreme example and
learned to connect the word and the flavor, then you will be prepared to
detect it at lower levels in commercial beers.    

Jim Layton (Howe, TX)


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:29:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: Revisions to the HBD server...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Well! The most recent mail problem with the HBD server has been fixed,
and, to help prevent future adventures along the same avenue, the
structure of the server has been revised somewhat. If you have a webpage
that is hosted by the HBD, and have trouble connecting to update your
pages, please replace /spool in your directory structure with /hbd3. Other
than that, the changes *should* be transparent. Those with cgi priveleges
should check to ensure their scripts are still running correctly.

Also, I would like any club or individual being hosted by the hbd server
to send a contact e-mail address so that I might put together a mailing
list in order to notify club webmasters directly rather than via an HBD
post.  Send these to webmaster at hbd.org, please.

Finally, there are a few pages that did not fall within our file
structure. You have been, for the time being, left in your original space
and should not notice any changes. Once I get the filesystem cleaned up, I
will move these directories to hbd3 as well (I *should* be able to notify
all of these individuals individuall as I know who most of them are).

Cheers!

The Home Brew Digest Janitorial Staff



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:34:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: Soapy Taste

On Sat, 27 Mar 1999 11:39:49 PST
dan cutcher wrote:
>I am very new at this. I only have to batches under my belt....or should 
>I say in my stomach. The first a strong stout and the second a brown 
>ale. Both batches turned out pretty good...however they both had a 
>filmy/soapy aftertaste. Does anyone have any suggestions? I would 
>appreciate any help.
>Dan Cutcher

Dan, the only time I ever found a soapy taste/mouthfeel in my beer was once
or twice when I got lazy and didn't rack to secondary in a timely manner.  I
believe leaving the beer on all that trub, break and dead yeast for a couple
weeks was the cause. I normally rack to secondary within 1 week.

Best o luck
********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny kegs - ProMash Brewing Software
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac
********************************************************************



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:38:34 -0800
From: "Daske, Felix" <DaskeF at bcrail.com>
Subject: Aluminum Pot Fittings, 'Dirty' Burner Grates

A couple of queries to the ultra scientific masters of Zen brewism <G>...

I am brewing in our kitchen (mind set adjustment alert) using 2 X 10 US
gallon aluminum pots and a small converted Igloo cooler with a copper pipe
manifold.  The stovetop is a GE gas range - large burner will bring 8 US
gallons of 150 F. wort to boil in about 40 minutes.  The pots are stock -
sans modifications; which brings me to my first question.

I would like to modify the 'Hot Liquor Tank' (pot #1) to add a ball valve
and a thermometer, if this works out I'll do the Boil Kettle.  I have been
following the various threads, since about Sept. '98 however, in my simple
mind, appropriate materials and methods are not clear.  As I am working with
aluminum I am wondering what the best material for fittings might be.  Can I
use brass?  Can I solder the fittings?  If welding is necessary what is the
best method?

My second question...

Over time, the burner grate (naming?) covering the large burner has 'grown'
some dark blue metallic crusty.  At first I thought this might be the paint
of the original metal coming undone<?> now I wonder whether it isn't some
sort of reaction with the heat, steel, and aluminum.  Any ideas what this
might be?  Any suggestion for 'cleaning' it?

Kind regards, Felix
Fallen Rock Home Brewery


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:20:22 GMT
From: marnold at ez-net.com (Matthew Arnold)
Subject: Re: big brew 99  milk stout

On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:21:28 -0500, you wrote:

>i see that in the recipe for the collaborator milk stout they include flaked
>barley  and flaked oats . do these need to be mashed or can they just be
>steeped like  choclate malt ect.?    thanks

I was very disappointed that the official AHA recipe would include steeping
grains that are only going to give you starch in your beer. Flaked barley and
flaked oats do need to be mashed with 2-row/6-row/pale ale/etc. malt otherwise
they are adding nothing but starch. They also say to use Carapils. That's OK if
you're using DWC Carapils (which can be steeped) but it's bad if it's Briess
(which cannot). I guess I would have hoped that at least the AHA wouldn't be
giving out such bad brewing advice.

Later,
  Matt


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:16:46 -0800 (PST)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: Steeping is not Mashing

While visiting one of the local homebrew shops recently, one of the owners
was telling me about their most popular recipe that customers had been
buying and making recently. One of the ingredients is a pound of munich
malt, crushed with a pound of some crystal (I think it was a non-descriptive
ale of some sort). In any case I was surprised they were steeping munich and
mentioned that it really should be mashed. So, now they've asked me to come
up with some instructions for mini-mashing/partial mashing to add to their
recipe instructions.

Easy enough done, but it did bring up one question. At what point does
mashing become steeping? What water/grist ratio is the maximum that
enzymatic action will occur fast enough to convert the starches to sugars
before pooping out (technical term for you pointy heads). I have used 1.5
quarts per pound but never higher than that. Is there some reference
somewhere that gives this maximum level?

Charley



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:17:35 -0800
From: Tyce Heldenbrand <tyce at photon.com>
Subject: Re: Homebrew judging - Why

Fred Wills ponders the question why homebrewers enter homebrew competitions
after they have ascertained a certain level of experinced brewing by making
great beer.

There are a myriad of reasons why Fred.  Let me throw out 20 or 30.  Here's
a simple one, it's FUN!!!

Sure, we all feel good when our beers wins a medal/ribbon/t-shirt or
whatever.  I can't believe for a minute that that makes someone an all
around outstanding brewer.  I have made some beers that have been judged as
an excellent example of the style, and other beers have had less tha
examplary.  Sure, lots of people can make a good Sierra Nevada or Bass pale
ale ripoff.  But have you made a Vienna, Schwarzbier, Steinbeer, Lambic,
Eisbock, and nailed the style to a tee?  The point is, just because someone
is really good at making one style of beer, doesn't mean they make all
styles of beer good.

The fun about brewing is trying new styles.  Not too many people like to
brew/drink the same beer all the time.  I enjoy experimenting with the
different styles, and yes, I try to brew to guidlines that defines a beer.

At many competitions that I have judged or entered, there were commercial
beers that were thrown in (blindly, of course).  We call these beers
"ringers".  The purpose is to see how the judges view this beer. For
example, a Pilsener Urquell was put into the Classic Pilsener category.
The beer was judged as oxidized, and therefore didn't score the highest.
So yes, a homebrew can score higher than a commercial beer.  Obviously, the
homebrewer feels good when they beat out the commercial beer.

Another reason why we enter competitions is to further promote the hobby of
homebrewing.  This will help getting your friends, neighbors, or whatever
to enjoy the process of homebrewing and having it evaluated to help improve
the skills, processes, and taste of their beer.

If entering competitions is a meaningless experience to you, then don't do
it.  The reason why we still enter these competitions after years of
brewing and winning awards is, we still keep learning.  Its a process which
cannot be learned overnight.  Just because you start winning some medals
deosn't mean you stop learning.

Tyce Heldenbrand
San Diego Brew Tech's


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:20:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Paul Shick <SHICK at JCVAXA.jcu.edu>
Subject: Bottle carbonation problem

 


Hello all,

	I have a quick question for the collective about a
bottle-carbonation problem.  I brewed a dunkelbock and a 
Maibock a week apart, putting them on the yeast cakes of two
German Pilsener primaries (using Wyeast 2206, Bavarian lager yeast.)
I bottled the dunkelbock after two weeks at 50F for the primary 
fermentation, 4 weeks at 45-40F for a secondary/quasi-lagering.  
I used about 3oz of corn sugar for the primings (for 5.5+ gallons,) 
aiming for about 2.5 volumes of CO2, guessing that the beer was 
at about 44F and held about 1.4 volumes already.  I bottled the 
Maibock a bit later, after 2 weeks primary and 6 weeks secondary 
at the same temperatures, with the same priming rate.  After 5 
weeks in the bottle (at about 55-60F basement temperature,) the 
Dunkelbock is still flat, with no yeast sediment showing at all.  
The Maibock was well-carbonated after only two weeks in the bottle, 
at the same temperature.

	My worry, of course, is that too much of the yeast flocculated
out of the dunkelbock during its extended quasi-lagering, and that there's
not enough yeast left to carbonate.  But the Maibock had even longer
at those temperatures, and still had plenty of yeast left to do the
job in only two week.  Maybe the darker grist of the dunkelbock resulted
in a lower pH, and this might effect the yeast metabolism?  Maybe the
yeast gods are punishing me for getting too enthusiastic about this
dunkelbock before it finished conditioning?  Any ideas on what's going
on would be appreciated.

	My plan is to wait at least another month or two before taking
any action on the flat dunkelbock.  If it's still flat then, I guess I'll
have to pop the caps and add some yeast, but I hate the thought of that.
At least I have the Maibock to make the waiting easier...

   			Paul Shick 
 			Basement brewing in Cleveland Hts OH

 



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:34:38 -0500
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Seneory Evaluations of Beers, Pumping MT/LT to Kettle

Some general thoughts and memories from a class I took at Siebels on
sensory evaluations (which may have some basis on the BJCP
variablity)...

Everyone has differing thresholds of the componds that make up the
'Flavor Wheel'.  One of the best classes I took (after the
microbiology class) was the Sensory Eval.  I found several blind spots
in my tasting. Sulphidic - they could have poured the whole bottle of
the 'doctoring fluid' in the sample and I still would not have caught
it. On the other hand I also found several (like diacetyl) that I am
very sensitive to.  From what I was told by Elsa  at  Siebels (forget her
last name) my threshold was very very low compared to the norms. 
Another key factor is day to day variablity - caused by what the
taster ingests/smokes and the relative health of the taster. 

What is this crap trying to say. Everyone will have an off day, most
everyone will have blind spots and very sensitive spots and these can
drift with age.  I dont recall the BJCP having documented this on a
per taster basis.  But I would venture to guess that most of the upper
tier of the judges know what areas are sensitive or dull. The most
enlightening experience a person can have is to educate the palate and
determine the thresholds for some of the key 'flavor wheel'
components. It can be done at a formal class (Siebels, UCDAVIS and I
would assume a few other universities around the country). If you want
to do it your self at the club level, insure that the 'doctoring' is
with safe chemicals and are measured to a high degree of accuracy.
Keep an accurate diary of the samplings. If anyone wants more info
email me direct, I wont waste bandwidth. Flames welcome. 

Gerard Dolmans dolmans at mail.tss.net

"My greatest concern is the pump between the mash/lauter tun and the
boil kettle.  Since I sparge at a trickle I worry about the pump being
able to move very small quantities for an hour or slightly longer.  It
seems that most pumps require a several gallon per minute flow rate in
order to not cavitate or to burn themselves out."

Try putting a small vessel (called a GRANT) at the output of the
mash/lauter and runoff into that.  Hook the pump inlet up to the
outlet of this vessel and pump from it. To keep grain chunks out of
the pump inlet stick a nylon bag on the outlet of the mashtun. Just
insure the bag is not being sucked into the pumps inlet.  Never (flame
word) try to pull direct from the mash tun (IMHO). It can be done, if
your careful.  One item to watch for is wort aeration enroute to the
kettle (from cavitation or sucking air thru connections/seals). This
is what I have on mine (mt/lt to valve to sack in grant to pump to
throttle valve).  I did not see the need to automate with a float
switch, just keep an eye on it and manually (pain in the butt).  I
draw in asscii but is it worth it....

Good Luck and Great Brewing
Joe Rolfe


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:18 -0800
From: "George De Piro" <George_De_Piro at berlex.com>
Subject: Beer characteristics & commercial examples

     Hi all,
     
     Since the queue is short, and I have a few minutes, I figured 
     that I would discuss some of beer's organoleptic qualities, 
     including commercial examples that have certain flavor elements 
     in a clearly discernible quantity (at least they are clearly 
     discernible by me; you mileage may vary):
     
     Diacetyl:  butter or butterscotch, very noticeable in any Middle 
     Ages (Syracuse) beers and in many English beers (especially the 
     older ones).  Any brewpub with a Pugsley system will produce 
     beers with diacetyl above threshold level.  Failing all this, go 
     to the supermarket and buy some imitation butter flavor (in the 
     spice aisle).
     
     Phenols:  as Jeff Renner said, the really gross ones that taste 
     like plastic, medicine, or chlorine aren't often found in 
     commercial beers.  Pleasantly spicy phenols, like 4-vinyl 
     guiaicol, are found in Bavarian-style wheat beers and many 
     Belgian beers.
     
     Many lip balms contain phenol; simply read the label and purchase 
     one with phenol in it and give it a whiff/taste.  Pretty strong, 
     and pretty gross.
     
     Dimethyl sulfide (DMS):  this is noticeable in many light lagers. 
     Perhaps the best beer to try is the reissue of Rheingold.  It 
     reeks of DMS.  If you are sensitive to DMS you will smell it as a 
     vegetable-like aroma in Rheingold.  If you are less sensitive to 
     DMS, Rheingold may smell like creamed corn.  It's really the only 
     reason to purchase such a poor (and overpriced) beer (IMNSHO).
     
     Cheesy:  bake some hops (any form) for a little while at low 
     heat.  Smell them periodically.  You will notice an unpleasant 
     cheesy aroma after a short while (I don't know how long it will 
     take).
     
     Acetaldehyde:  smells like freshly cut pumpkin or unripe apples.  
     Also smells like Budweiser (its easier to smell it if the beer is 
     warmer than the typical serving temperature of Budweiser).
     
     Skunky:  Pour a Bass ale into a clear pint glass.  Set it in full 
     sun for 30-60 seconds, then smell.  You could avoid that work by 
     simply buying Corona or Heineken and smelling what is in the 
     bottle, but then you'll have 5 more poor beers to get rid of.
     
     Oxidized:  a very broad array of flavors/aromas are caused by 
     oxidation.  These include metallic, papery (especially noticeable 
     when the beer is swished around the tongue), vegetables, and 
     sherry.  Oxidation can also cause a decrease in the perception of 
     malt flavors, leaving the beer unbalanced and incomplete.  Many 
     imported beers are severely oxidized, including every bottle of 
     Sam Smiths I have ever had in the States.  The major Munich 
     brewery's 1998 Oktoberfestbiers were all quite papery tasting, 
     even on draft, in the NYC area (and I had a reliable report of 
     the same thing in Texas).  Spaten's Franziskaner Weissbier often 
     has papery notes, too (here in the NYC area).
     
     Sour/acidic:  yogurt-like (lactic acid) or vinegar-like (acetic 
     acid).  A good Lambic like Cantillon will display these 
     qualities, or you can simply spike a beer.
     
     Sulfur:  hydrogen sulfide (H2S) smells like rotten eggs and is a 
     common byproduct of lager fermentations.  This aroma should not 
     be discernible in the finished beer.
     
     Fruity:  a class of organic compounds called esters are 
     responsible for the fruity characteristics found in beer.  On the 
     extreme end of fruity commercial examples is Bavarian-style wheat 
     beer, with its big banana character.
     
     Solvent-like:  alcohols that are larger than ethanol (the 
     so-called higher alcohols or fusel alcohols) can be discerned as 
     harshly alcoholic or solventy.  Certain esters can also be 
     solventy in high enough concentrations (ethyl acetate, for one).  
     Fusel production is *always* exacerbated by excessive yeast 
     growth (see my recent Brewing Techniques article (Jan/Feb. 1999) 
     about yeast management for more details).  Excessive fusels are 
     often found in high-gravity homebrew.  Schneider's Aventinus 
     probably has as much fusel character as any commercial beer will 
     ever have, although it is still not as stupefying as many 
     high-gravity homebrews.
     
     Brettanomyces:  this earthy, musty, fruity, sharp character has 
     many components contributing to it.  Words cannot do it justice.  
     An old bottle of Orval (all of the Orval in stores in the USA is 
     old) will teach the drinker what Brettanomyces smells like.  
     Fresh bottles of Orval are very hoppy in nose, with the Brett. 
     character being very undeveloped compared to the older bottles.
     
     Those of you who still think that Brett. character smells like a 
     horse or its blanket should check out:
     
     http://members.aol.com/Maltoon/funnypage.html
     
     Have fun!
     
     George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)
     
     Malted Barley Appreciation Society
     http://members.aol.com/MaltyDog/maltind.html


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:37:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: homebrew competitions

Randy Ricchi Writes (in response to Fred Wills's post):

Fred Wills asked:
Why do so many homebrewers in general feel the need to compete?

Randy Answers:
That's easy. Ego.

I say:

Damn I hope this is tongue in cheek because I really don't think that
most brewers enter competitions for EGO sake. There are those Rogue
Ego minded brewers that seem to only brew and enter so they can show
you all those neato cool ribbons and talk about how great they are. 

There is a lot more to brewing and entering competitions than just
talking about yourself and stepping on your "dick" in front of other
brewers whilst trying to impress them. 

Sure the ribbons are nice (I keep them in a drawer with all the
incorrectly filled out judging sheets) but that isn't the reason I
enter. 

I enter for the feedback on the beer. I want BJCP judges to tell me
where I went right and where I went wrong. If I score a 45 or I score
a 12 it is all the same in my mind. I want the feedback. 

Sometimes you get a real bonehead judging your beer and they don't
know what they are doing. Sometimes you get Al K. or Ed Bronson
judging your beer and the whole world opens up and you get a great
score sheet back. 

There is no room for egos in brewing... We are all only as good as our
next brew. Look at Gump; a GABF Gold medal winner! the guy is about as
nice and as helpful to other brewers as they come. Jethro knows who
his mates is and isn't and he knows the difference. Sure he probably
has an ego but he doesn't go around shoving that Gold medal in yer
face... He just busts his ass to brew a better beer and to help others
brew better beer. 

I say If you are entering and brewing to feed your ego then you need
to get a dog or a hamster or something cause most brewers probably
don't want to be around you. 

Well I have again rambled too much... 

C'ya!

 -Scott "Thinking of painting my TownCar Plaid" Abene

===

ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"The More I know About Cathy Ewing, The More The AHA SUCKS"

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:15:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: chicory


My personal little chicory odyssey continues, although I've already
brewed the saison without any.  I picked up a bottle of La Cochonnette
(or Cochonne) which is also made by Brasserie a Vapeur at Pipaix, who
make Saison de Pipaix.  Right on the label it lists the ingredients,
and last on the list is roasted chicory, so it appears I have been a
little hasty in pronouncing that roasted chicory wasn't used.  Michael
Jackson states that this same brewery uses chicory flavored sugars for
all their primings (and implies they're not alone), and I'm still not
sure what to make of that.  I also don't know how they get much (good)
flavor from the roasted chicory.  Seems to me it would only work well
in a stout or porter or similar.

 -SM-


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:00:42 -0500
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: Westvleteren Yeast 

John asks about the Westvletern yeast.. if this is truly the westvlet yeast
and not westmalle, the style would be a dark rich dubbel style. they make a
6, 8, and 12. one of my favorite beers but hard to get. usually sold only
at the abbey gates. i have tried to culture this yeast several times with
little or no luck. good to know it is available from ssc.

my impression of this yeast would be one with a low attenuation.. a
character I would like to achieve for the dubbel style.. mine normally come
out too dry. especially when using the chimay strain.

i recently made a 7 barrel batch dubbel with a local pub owner using the
chimay yeast. when that was done he pitched it to a wit and eventually he
will be trying it on a batch of triple.
the end results should be interesting to compare.



>From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
>
>I received a vial of Westvleteren yeast as a prize from the Saccharomyces
>Supply Company in MA. I have never had a beer from this abbey and therefore
>have no idea of the profile of the strain. I decided to give it a try and
>am using it to ferment 4 gallons of wit (I also pitched 3944 in the other
>11 gallons). The starter was up in running in 15 hours and after pitched
>the 4 gallons were at krausen after 12 hours. I plan on making a tripel
>this weekend and pitching the dregs from the wit. Is this yeast appropriate
>for a tripel (or a wit)?
>
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:41:22 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Brewpubs in Cambridge, MA


Hi folks,

I checked Pubcrawler so have those ones listed.  Any other brewpubs or such
that
I should visit while in Cambridge, MA?  I'll be there 2 nights 1 day on a
business
trip around April 8th.

Also, if anyone would like to get together for a beer, just Email me.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support				amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks



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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:16:37 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Judging & Contests, Joke

Brewsters:

I'm back and will be responding to e-mail as time permits.

Sorry I wasn't around to enter into the discssion of BJCP and
beer judging in general. I also feel the need to ramble
philosophically on this subject. I have yet to read all the other
HBDs, so please forgive any redundancy.

I have two thoughts:

1) I think what the BJCP and like minded community service
oriented individuals do to help us perfect our technique is
a good thing.  I look at such contests as fulfilling the function
of a laboratory experiment in which the T.A. ( er BJCP) gives
you a grade according to how well you did in matching a
set of arbitrary guidelines based on TODAY's version of a
beer.  It is great practice.

2) I think what the BJCP and like-minded community service
oriented individuals ( and those gatekeepers only interested
in their own ability to tower their "knowledge" over other less
intense brewers) is a terrible thing that squashes the true
direction of what homebrewing should be - to make the
best beer possible.

Why, this dichotomy in my feelings about homebrewing
contests and judging in general?

As I understand it, the basic premise of the BJCP and other
organizations is that for some reason today's beers (including
the European beers)  are somehow "right". At least it might 

be mis-construed by some due to  the BJCP insistence that THIS
is the correct profile for this kind of beer.

I disagree with this basic premise, having had the opportunity
to live in Britain as the beers were being nationalized and
seeing the change over in basic profile from a British to a
lighter more Americanized, cold beer delivered under
pressure.  Thank goodness I was not the only once who
noticed it and the Real Ale program was started in Britain.

In my opinion, modern beers are brewed under the influence
of the scrutiny of the accountants and the taxman and the
insurance companies - The brewer has to brew to these
quantitative constraints and by-in-large ignore the qualitative
ones. Ask yourself why beers greater than a certain alcohol
content have to be labelled "malt liquor" when no such
distinction existed in the past. Ask yourself why beer can
no longer have the alcohol content on the label but wine can.

My suspicions?  LIghter bodied beers cost less to make,
cost less per gallons in excise taxes and drinkers are
imagined to be less drunk by insurance companies if the
beer is lower in aclohol.

For those of you who have made a CAP and compared it to
Budweiser, you will realize that this CAP is far superior to
Budweiser in any of its many forms.  My wife has a declared
dislike for lager ( aka Budweiser, Miller, Coors, etc.) but the
other day I gave her a taste of my most recent CAP.
and she said "is that a lager?  Wow, that's better than
Budweiser by a long shot."

Not much of a compliment,IMHO. But her second sip was.

So what is the danger of contests and judging?  It is simply
that, if we are not careful,  these activities may squelch the
innovative development of new beers or the return to the
older, better style,  developed by decades and centuries of
natural selection among the drinking populace, when the
brewer was in charge of the kind of beer that was brewed. 


Are contests inherently bad? No.  Are they dangerous?
Yes - if given a status that is undeserved.  Contests
reward brewers who are skilled at brewing to a set of
guidelines.  This is the first step in being a good brewer.
The second one is the creative and more difficult to
characterize - the ability to brew *good* beer. As an
example, a skilled brewer could brew a dead ringer for
Budweiser, but that would not mean he could brew a
good beer, necessarily. Yet this brewer may win many
contests and the brewer of good, but outside the BJCP
guidelines would not.  What to do?

I mean, why not make a hoppy lager if it is good?

It is my opinion that every judging event should have an
event in which the best beer in the show is rewarded a
prize. This is drawn not necessarily from the winners in
the various classes, but from all beers entered. A new
class of guidelines will need to be developed - like
refreshing, full mouthed, good looking,  etc. etc. Sort
of the way we subconsciously judge an unknown beer
when drinking it for the first time.

BJCP and others - any takers?

- -------------------------------------------------
An Irishman walks into a bar in Dublin, orders three pints of
Guinness and sits in the back of the room, drinking a sip out
of each one in turn.  When he finishes them, he comes back
to the bar and orders three more.  The bartender asks him,
"You know, a pint goes flat after I draw it; it would taste better
if you bought one at a time."

The Irishman replies, "Well, you see, I have two brothers.
One is in America, the other in Australia, and I'm here in Dublin.
When we all left home, we promised that we'd drink this
way to remember the day when we drank together."

The bartender admits that this is a nice custom, and leaves
it there.    The Irishman becomes a regular in the bar, and
always drinks the same way: He orders three pints and
drinks them in turn. One day, he comes in and orders two
pints. All the other regulars notice and fall silent. When he
comes back to the bar for the second round, the bartender
says, "I don't want to intrude on your grief, but I wanted to
offer my condolences on your great loss."

The Irishman looks confused for a moment, then a
light dawns in his eye and he laughs. "Oh, no,"  he says,
"Everyone's fine. I've just quit drinking."


Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:10:29 -0600
From: "George, Marshall E." <MGeorge at bridge.com>
Subject: Water Softeners and Brewing

I have recently moved into a home that has a water softener in it.  It uses
the pellets for the softening mechanism, and was wondering if this will have
a detrimental effect on my beers (I brew allgrain).  If so, what could I do
to help this out?

Marshall George 
Glen Carbon, IL
(I have no idea who Jeff Renner is)


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---