---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  "proofing yeasts" (Clark)
  Diacetyl, can I get it out of kegged beer? (Dave Humes)
  taste references (Laurel Maney)
  Re: MI Brewpubs (Spencer W Thomas)
  Beer Freshness ("David M. Campbell")
  Filtering your beer (Nathan Kanous)
  Re-using yeast (Nathan Kanous)
  Milk Stout (John Varady)
  New TI Chip (Louis Bonham)
  Keg Mash Tun Insulation (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  Beer joke  - humor (Ian Smith)
  Ayinger yeast (Jeff Renner)
  Re: taste training kits (Steven Ensley)
  Chooks and Emus / Judging ("RANDY ERICKSON")
  Nottingham lag time (PAUL W HAAF JR)
  Braggot/Bracket (beanish)
  Re: taste training kits (John Landreman)
  Arizona BP's ("John Lifer, jr")
  Organoleptic confusion, HBlimits,refraction/alcohol (Dave Burley)
  Diacetyl, Judging (RCAYOT)
  Re: Sugar Substitute (Eric Dreher)
  open fermenter? (Lou.Heavner)
  Aluminum & pH & temperature (Dan Cole)
  Oxidation of a-acetolactate ("David C. Harris")
  Alcohol Testing (William Frazier)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:56:34 -0500
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: "proofing yeasts"

Brew Crew,

First,  Sunday evening I brewed a Dunkel From a recipe in Papazians' book
"The Home Brewers Companion".  I went with a dry lager yeast instead of the
liquid packet I had in the fridge.  This was a last minute session and I
did not have enough time to activate the liquid properly.  I rehydrated the
yeast packet and then proofed it with a little sugar.  I saw very little,
if any activity.  This was not good , but I pitched anyway as most of us
probably would have under the circumstances.  24 hours later there was
limited activity, very slow.  2 days later things were a little more active
, but not what I had hoped to see.  Today (72 hours later) there is very
active fermentation with a lot of activity in the carboy.  Whew!

Questions.  Should lager yeasts be reactivated in cool water as opposed to
ale yeasts which are rehydrated in warm water?  Everything I have read
about rehydrating yeast involves warm water and putting the yeast in a warm
place to grow.  Does this apply to both ale and lager yeast?  Do lager
yeasts take longer to "take off" when pitched than ale yeasts?   

I had a Murphys Irish Stout a couple weeks ago.  Now in my book, hot dogs,
beans and Genny Creams cover the ten basic food groups so this stout was a
real mouthful.  I thought that it was excellent.  What type of stout is
this considered to be?  This is the kind of beer I want to make.
Thanks for the help gang.  I'll be looking forward to your replys.

Dave Clark
Eagle Bridge, NY

      




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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 99 23:40:10 -0500
From: Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Diacetyl, can I get it out of kegged beer?

Greetings,

Well, for the first time I managed to create a beer that's loaded with
diacetyl.  The beer's a classic English pale ale that is otherwise fairly
nice and I hate to waste it.  Since it's in keggs, is there any chance I
could reduce the diacetyl to acceptable levels by either CO2 scrubbing or
just periodic venting?  Has anyone been successful at this?  What was your
procedure?

Thanks in advance.

- --Dave

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
Dave Humes <humesdg1 at earthlink.net>                  Dave Humes
- -----------------------------------------------------------



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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:01:24 -0800
From: Laurel Maney <maney at execpc.com>
Subject: taste references

Hi to all -

Spiking samples of beer with flavor references is a good idea, but don't
use Rolling Rock, because that's the best example of DMS (upwards of 300
ppb, I'm thinking) made the natural way that you'll ever find.  In fact,
the best trainer for DMS is to open a can of creamed corn and do sniff
comparisons of that with Rolling Rock.

Here are some other good sniff comparisons to use for training.  In my
experience, it's good to sample the reference, then a beer containing a
relatively high level of that flavor for initial identification.  If you
spike, I'd suggest using a beer like High Life or Bud.

fruity/banana -isoamyl acetate - 'Circus Peanuts' candy or imitation
banana extract
nutty - benzaldehyde - almond extract
VDK - diacetyl, 2.3-pentanedione - microwave popcorn (before popping -
just break the seal)
skunky - 3-methyl2-butene-1-thiol - Corona exposed to strong sunlight
for ~10 minutes
phenolic - eugenol, 4-vinylguiacol - whole cloves, if possible from bulk
(as opposed to bottled)
oxidized - pieces of cardboard miostened with water, in a ziplock bag
overnight
                OR go way to the back of the library stacks and just
take in the aroma of old paper
                      (well, okay, this is hard to bottle.....but it's
trans-2-nonenal at its best)

Once you have a good identification of the flavor, you can go to lower
levels in the beer and do them without references.

Mouthfeel references are perhaps better to do in water first, since you
can't smell them.

metallic - iron - nutritional iron supplement tablet (rinse off red
coating, dilute to ~3 ppm)
alcoholic warming - ethanol - grain alcohol or vodka
sour - citric or lactic acid - citric or lactic acid
astringent - sulfates - calcium sulfate
bitter - isoalpha acids - boil a few hop pellets or flowers in water

These are all ones that I have done with some success.  There are a lot
more listed in the book Evaluating Beer from Brewers Publications, ISBN
0-937381-37-3, that you might want to try.

Laurel Maney
Brewing Program
Milwaukee Area Technical College









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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 02:32:29 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: MI Brewpubs 

>>>>> "Nathan" == Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu> writes:

    Nathan> Isn't this the Big Buck Brewery?  Kind of like the
    Nathan> McDonald's or Budweiser of brewpubs in my opinion.  

Out of 10 beers on tap last time I was there, there was one with real
flavor -- the ESB.  The stout was not bad, either.

Just a reminder, folks, you can find a list of ALL the Michigan
breweries at http://www.michiganbeerguide.com, with a map.

=Spencer


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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:23:32 -0500 
From: "David M. Campbell" <David.Campbell at po-box.esu.edu>
Subject: Beer Freshness


How long will a beer stay "fresh" in the refrigerator?  I make mostly
extract ales, and I was thinking about saving a bottle or two from each
recipe that I make for a year or two...can I do that?  Or, will it go "bad"
after a certain amount of time?  Thanks,

Dave




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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:47:07 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Filtering your beer

Better box up that Helles and send it to Wisconsin.  We can
"physilogically" filter it for you and return the residuals...if you wish.
;^)
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:49:24 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re-using yeast

Ron labors ;^) over how to separate the yeast when "washing" yeast at home
and says his pouring and turkey baster don't work.  How about one of those
fancy measuring cups that draws from the bottom?  You could pour out the
trub and gunk first (throw it away) capture the middle stuff and throw away
the stuff on top.
nathan in madison, WI




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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:50:09 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Milk Stout

Brain Rezac writes:
>Matt makes some excellent points.  He is correct.  Flaked barley and
>oats do need to be mashed with equal or greater quantities of
>enzymatic malt.  I also agree with his comparison of DWC vs. Briess
>carapils.  When Paul and I worked on stepping down the original 11 Bbl
>recipe, these issues were raised.
<snip>
>So, knowing that homebrewers have been using these ingredients this
>way for years, we opted for simplicity over efficiency to encourage
>participation of homebrewers at all levels.  At the time, folks were
>chompin' at the bit to get the recipe, so we made a quick decision.

Perhaps that quick decision should have been to pick a different style?? The
fact that home brewers have been doing something wrong for years, doesn't
make it ok. It certainly shouldn't be propagated in such a high profile
fashion with AHA approval.

I'm curious how the decision to brew milk stout came about. The addition of
lactose alone will preclude many brewers. But, I'll be there. It should be
*fun* which is what it really is all about. I think I'll brew a GDP Weizen
(if I can get a sample of his yeast...perhaps at the AHA Regionals in April
in Philly?).

Later,

John

- -- 
John Varady                     http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Glenside, PA                    rust1d at usa.net



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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:50:57 -0600
From: Louis Bonham <lkbonham at hypercon.com>
Subject: New TI Chip

Hi folks:

Regarding whether the new TI "Spreeta" sensor could be useful to brewers, from
my reading on the stuff on the website the answer is ABSOLUTELY.  Indeed, the TI
application notes specifically mention monitoring SG levels during both mashing
and fermentation.  Indeed, the resolution of this chip (RI 0.000001) is better
than all but the very best bench refractometers on the market.

Before we all get too excited, however, several caveats are in order:

(1)    Cost.  I have not seen any pricing on this chip.  TI does offer a
prototyping kit with one chip / sensor assembly, a flow cell with a thermistor
for ATC, a PC interface card and Windows software for the low, low price of
$2,999.   I have a sneaking suspicion that TI will price these things dearly, at
least at first.  [Remember that there are ISFET chips out there that allow for
the construction of virtually indestructable pH sensors that don't go bad, can
take high temps, etc.  These things have been out for years, yet solid state pH
sensors are still 3-4X the price of conventional ones.]

(2)    "Extras."  This chip will have to have a fairly involved interface card,
either to a standalone computer or to a small dedicated processor, because
there's a fairly involved set of functions that must be run to interpret the
data stream from the chip.  One of my clients designs and prototypes such things
for scientific equipment, and from my conversations with him this would probably
not be a project that very many of us could handle, unless of course you're a EE
with experience in this area.  (OTOH, once somebody actually designs one, it
might be "clonable" without too much trouble.)

(3)    Uses.  OK, let's assume that somebody comes up with a integrated sensor /
display unit for a reasonable sum, and thus what you've got is a small, highly
accurate, temperature compensated electronic refractometer.  You could mount
this in your mash tun or your RIMS plumbing to monitor gravity constantly during
the mash.  Given that the maximum rated working temp of the chip is 70C, I doubt
that you could do the same in the kettle, but then again you probably wouldn't
need to.  Mounting it in a fermenter would, of course, allow you to measure
gravity before fermentation starts, but as with any refractometer you don't get
an accurate SG measurement from the raw refractometer data once there's ethanol
in the mix.  HOWEVER, there are tables available that allow one to extrapolate
"true" SG (and EtOH content) from the "apparent" gravity shown by a
refractometer IF you also have an accurate OG measurement.  I could thus
envision a sensor package that records the OG and calculates / displays the SG
of fermenting beer.

Very interesting stuff.

LKB



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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:02:45 -0500
From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com
Subject: Keg Mash Tun Insulation

Randy Billmaier asks:
> Anyone have good advice on how to insulate a converted keg
> mash tun?  It needs to be able to accept heat yet keep the
> mash at a steady temperature. Am thinking of some sort
> of aluminum flashing held at the bottom with muffler tape.
> What would the actual insulation be, as it needs to be
> waterproof?  What about some sort of wood covering over
> the insulating material?

While cruising the aisles of Menard's last night (amazing how many single
women are doing home improvement projects these days!) I saw what might be
the long-sought solution to this problem.  In the gas grill department,
they had a product from Char-Broil called the "Smoker Jacket".  Through the
plastic packaging, it appeared to be bubble-wrap made from very heavy
aluminum foil (without the usual mylar laminate), with snaps for
attachment.  Designed to insulate a charcoal-fired meat smoker (like the
Brinkmann, Char-Broil and others), it looks to be about the right size for
the ubiquitous Sankey.  As an added bonus, it was only $5.99.

Mark in Kalamazoo




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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:06:44 -0700
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: Beer joke  - humor

Subject:    Beer Troubleshooting

SYMPTOM:  Feet cold and wet.
FAULT:  Glass being held at incorrect angle.
ACTION:  Rotate glass so that open end points toward ceiling.

SYMPTOM:  Feet warm and wet.
FAULT:  Improper bladder control.
ACTION:  Stand next to nearest dog, complain about house training.

SYMPTOM:  Beer unusually pale and tasteless.
FAULT:  Glass empty.
ACTION:  Get someone to buy you another beer.

SYMPTOM:  Opposite wall covered with fluorescent lights.
FAULT:  You have fallen over backward.
ACTION:  Have yourself leashed to bar.

SYMPTOM:  Mouth contains cigarette butts.
FAULT:  You have fallen forward.
ACTION:  See above.

SYMPTOM:  Beer tasteless, front of your shirt is wet.
FAULT:  Mouth not open, or glass applied to wrong part of face.
ACTION:  Retire to rest room, practice in mirror.

SYMPTOM:  Floor blurred.
FAULT:  You are looking through bottom of empty glass.
ACTION:  Get someone to buy you another beer.

SYMPTOM:  Floor moving.
FAULT:  You are being carried out.
ACTION:  Find out if you are being taken to another bar.

SYMPTOM:  Room seems unusually dark.
FAULT:  Bar has closed.
ACTION:  Confirm home address with bartender.

SYMPTOM:  Taxi suddenly takes on colorful aspect and textures.
FAULT:  Beer consumption has exceeded personal limitations.
ACTION:  Cover mouth.

SYMPTOM:  Everyone looks up to you and smiles.
FAULT:  You are dancing on the table.
ACTION:  Fall on somebody cushy-looking.

SYMPTOM:  Beer is crystal-clear.
FAULT:  It's water. Somebody is trying to sober you up.
ACTION:  Punch him.

SYMPTOM:  Hands hurts, nose hurts, mind unusually clear.
FAULT:  You have been in a fight.
ACTION:  Apologize to everyone you see, just in case it was them.

SYMPTOM:  Don't recognize anyone, don't recognize the room you're in.
FAULT:  You've wandered into the wrong party.
ACTION:  See if they have free beer.

SYMPTOM:  Your singing sounds distorted.
FAULT:  The beer is too weak.
ACTION:  Have more beer until your voice improves.

SYMPTOM:  Don't remember the words to the song.
FAULT:  Beer is just right.
ACTION:  Play air guitar.





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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:31:27 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Ayinger yeast

"Philip J Wilcox" <<pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> wrote:


>I now have a stubborn Helles which refused to fall bright after using
what

>is rumored to be Ayinger Lager yeast? Anybody know if this is a known

>Non-flocker? Beer was brewed in December with Tom Plunkard we split
the

>batch, he used his yeast, and I stopped at the local Micro to get
mine. 


This has become my regular lager yeast.  It is terrific.  I've brewed
all malt pale and dark lagers and CAP with it, and it dropped out just
fine.  I got mine directly from Dan McConnell YCKC without an
intervening micro.


I participated with Dan and a local brewpub brewing staff and owners in
a tasting last summer of six one-gallon brews from the same pilsner
wort, all fermented with different yeasts.  The Ayinger was a clear
favorite with everyone, and was head and shoulders above the others in
my opinion.  I just tapped a Dortmunder Export (I missed the mark for a
Helles) that is incredibly German, IMNSHO.


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.



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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:51:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Steven Ensley <steve at globaldialog.com>
Subject: Re: taste training kits

>I would be more interested in the "beer doping kit".  I have read some 
>information on taste training from brewery.org,  It detailed this taste 
>training by tainting a bland control beer with the flavor components
>you're 
>trying to learn to detect.

I think you can find what your after in the study guide for the BJCP
tests.  You can find it at http://www.bjcp.org .  You will also find it
very interesting reading if your trying to refine your beer evaluation
skills as I am.  The long form of the style guidelines also list comercial
examples of the various styles.


- -- 

Steve 
KB9RMM

Vice President and all-round technology guy Al Gore on Y2K: 
 "How could this be a problem in a country where we have Intel and Microsoft?"



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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:52:35 -0800
From: "RANDY ERICKSON" <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject: Chooks and Emus / Judging

Help us out Jethro:

I know what an emu is, saw 'em in the zoo in Sydney many years
ago (started with a T, most beautiful zoo I've ever seen, BTW ---
worth the price of admission just for the birds).   Chooks (chickens)
I had to look up in the dictionary.

My question is, what does it mean if your chook turns into an
emu?  Is that a bad thing?  Some sort of curse?

***************************************************************************

Silent Bob has an interesting idea about qualifying the level of
judging ability through the BJCP database.  Presumably this
information would be used to screen the judge pool at some point
in the future.

My concern is that judging is a voluntary effort, and many times
the organizers are thrilled to see judges show up, period.

Next month (?) the first round of the AHA Nationals for the Left
Coast will be held in the high desert of Southern California.  That's
a seven hour drive from here, 9+ from where it was held last
year, and two hours from LA on a good day.  I'd wager a beer
that those guys will be looking for warm bodies that weekend.
I'll further wager that there's a fair chance if you enter that you'll
get scoresheets back from non-BJCP judges, people that just
happened to be available and willing to help.  And the organizers
will have been happy to have had 'em there.

Randy in Modesto


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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:51:31 -0500
From: PAUL W HAAF JR <haafbrau1 at juno.com>
Subject: Nottingham lag time

I followed the recently posted procedure for rehydrating the yeast, and
it was bubbling within 14 hours.  I remember shorter lag times in the
past, but for the past 6 months or so, this is about the best I've gotten
with Nottingham.  By the way, this yeast makes a nice, clean cider, and
I'm planning on a low strength mead with this yeast real soon.
Paul Haaf
Y2K-Computer programmers way of saying, 'HAHA!'

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]


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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:12:11 -0800 (PST)
From: beanish at blarg.net
Subject: Braggot/Bracket

Nathan asks for Braggot recipes.  Here's one I've looked at but
haven't tried:
http://www.eklektix.com/gfc/mead/recipes/rwebb.rcp

Also, in this page,
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/MedievalFH.html
Fred Hardy suggests using the first runnings of your mash for a "big" beer,
and then adding honey to the remainder of the runnings to boost the gravity
and make a braggot/bracket.

One piece of advice I'd offer from mead-making is to add your honey after
you've finished the boil of the malt wort.  It's a matter of opinion, but
I think boiling drives off most of the honey aroma.

I seem to recall reading someplace that a braggot doesn't need to be as
high OG as the honey bucket bracket recipe above, but I haven't seen any
lower OG recipes on the web.

I'm about to get started this month on an all-grain set-up, and after
brewing an "easy" batch or two, I'm likely to make a big Scottish ale
with the first runnings (with help from Noonan's Scottish Ale book from
the AHA style series) and then use the second runnings to make a braggot
instead of a small beer.  I'll let you know how it goes.  After a long
period of inept mead-making, I heard about bracket/braggot and decided
I wanted to make one.  So first, I needed to learn how to brew beer :)
That was a year ago, and I've brewed nothing but beer since (and vastly
improved my technique, since there's so much more in the way of books and
web resources to draw from as compared to mead).  I'm looking forward
to finally making that braggot!
- --
Jeremy York
beanish at blarg.net
jeremy at cartia.com


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Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 11:00:29 -0700
From: jlandrem at atmel.com (John Landreman)
Subject: Re: taste training kits

In hbd #2992 Cory Chadwell said:

"I would be more interested in the "beer doping kit".  I have read some
information on taste training from brewery.org,  It detailed this taste
training by tainting a bland control beer with the flavor components you're
trying to learn to detect.  The article didn't really go into detail regarding
what you might use for those components.  What I'd like to have is a fairly
complete list of flavor profiles vs. the additions you would use to achieve
them."

Check out Jay "Dr. Beer" Hersh's web site at http://www.tiac.net/users/drbeer
for doctoring guidelines that he and Steve Stroud have developed over a number
of years.

Cheers,
John Landreman
Colorado Springs, CO


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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:20:01 -0600
From: "John Lifer, jr" <jliferjr at misnet.com>
Subject: Arizona BP's

Hey yawl! I'll be in Phoenix area for a week in April and I have gotten
a list of the BP's within a hundred miles or so.  There are more than
the 4-5 listed that I'll be able to get to.  Does anyone have a
recomendation (or an avoid) for any of these?  Actually will be in
Chandler and one day in Tucson.  Thanks for the help.
John
- --
Cornelius Ball Lock Kegs for Sale
See Web page for details.
http://www2.misnet.com/~jliferjr




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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:37:58 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Organoleptic confusion, HBlimits,refraction/alcohol

Brewsters:

Steven Klump's bid to end the organoleptic confusion ( was
there any?) between diacetyl and DMS certainly left me
confused as he mentioned them in the above order and then
"explained" the difference in the reverse order leading to at
least my momentary confusion.  Diacetyl has a 

buttery/butterscotch aroma/taste and is found historically in
Scottish and Northern England ales most often.  They do
not smell like greasy, steamy microwave popcorn!
DMS is often encountered in Mid-western US beers/ales.
like Rolling Rock, Jenny Cream ( corn) Ale.
- -----------------------------------------  

Those worrying about making too much homebrew and
exceeding  some arbitrary limit should be aware of a
comment made to me some three decades or so ago
when homebrewing was not legal in the US. I called the
BATF ( or ABC as it was then) to inquire as to the penalty
were I to make some homebrew.

The BATFer said to me "Well, quite frankly, we have a lot
bigger problems. Do you understand what I mean?"

I did and began to make homebrew.

Point is, this is a harmless ( and in my opinion has a lot
of really socio-positive things) hobby as far as society
is concerned.

If you don't make a jackass of yourself in public, no
one cares. Don't drive drunk or agree to supply the
firemen's next wet down and you should be OK.
- ------------------------------------------
Refraction of a pure alcohol/ water solution can be useful,
but refractive index of a complex mixture is complex and
not too useful for this kind of a simple determination if you
have a variety of starting materials.  Gas Chromatography
is the best and easiest of all the methods discussed and
probably cheaper than the TI instrument.. 

- ---------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: 01 Apr 1999 15:22:24 -0500
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Diacetyl, Judging

     I have been following a few of the threads here and would like ot add 
     a few comments about Diacetyl.
     
     I was never quite able to taste Diacetyl until a homebrewer friend of 
     mine took some on a pub/brewery crawl and Ray McNiel tasted the 
     beer..."Major Diacetyl" he claimed!  We all tasted the beer, and then 
     we knew... AHHHH... THATS what Diacetyl tastes like!  I now know I 
     have a very sensitive palate for diacetyl, and taste it in many beers. 
      One recent example of that was  a bottle of Sam Adams Boston LAGER, 
     had a very noticable Diacetyl taste, I was very dissapointed, as that 
     once very good beer is now highly variable.  In another note, at a 
     recent judging, I tasted diacetyl in several beers, but one or both of 
     the other judges could not in some of the beers, since it was light 
     american lagers it was unappropriate.  In several other of the beers 
     in that flight, one judge detected (smelled and tasted?) fusel 
     alcohols, I was unable to discern those particular characteristics.  
     Having said all of that, judging is obviously going to be a very 
     fallable process untill all judges become educated enough to be 
     sensitized to all of the various flavors aromas.  This is why the 
     advancement in judging rank is based on both test score and experience 
     points.  If we do our job correctly, we should be educating each other 
     while judging, I would have liked to have spent som etime with the 
     judge who could detect fusel alcohols in order to educate my palate to 
     that characteristic, but we were far from my home and an opportunity 
     did not arise to do so.  I have been able to educate the members of my 
     homebrew club as to the ability to detect diacetyl, and some of them 
     have become so aware of it that they now notice it in thier beers and 
     try to correct the problem, whereas before they would not necessarily 
     know "what that taste is"
     
     Another example is a German Light Lager I submitted that had a load of 
     diacetyl in it.  I submitted it because I wanted feedback, and to see 
     how the judges would percieve this beer.  well, the comments were 
     about evenly split with half the judges detecting DMS, the other half 
     detecting Diacetyl.  There is no excessive DMS in that beer, at least 
     from what I can taste, there IS however Diacetyl.  does that mean that 
     two of the judges mis-took diacetyl for DMS? In my opinion very 
     likely.  does that make me angry or upset? heck no!  I understand the 
     judging process, and appreciate all the efforts judges make in 
     evaluating my beers.  In fact, more than one judge said the beer, 
     except for that one fault was very good, and right on style!  what I 
     did do, was to pitch fresh yeast in the keg of that lager when I 
     bottled for the competition, left the keg out of the refrigerator for 
     several days, a post lagering diacetyl rest.  After about another week 
     in the refrigerator, I cannot detect any diacetyl in this beer! In 
     fact this beer now is highly enjoyable!
     
     Sorry for ambling on, but I would like to add one more comment, and 
     question for the judging and homebrewing community:  which is more 
     important in judging a beer, adherence to style, or quality of 
     ingredients/process etc.  In other words when faced with a delicious 
     well crafted beer, that is clean, has the appropriate characteristics 
     for the most part that is only slightly out of range in say 
     bitterness, or gravity (if one belives one can detect that) and 
     another that is right on in terms of color, head retention, mouth 
     feel, malt/hop balance, for the style, but is just not there quality 
     wise.  by this I mean possibly old malt extract used, or poor quality 
     yeast etc.  These are process errors or faults, but I know that many 
     judges would score the beers nearly equally, I for one would tend to 
     give the better QUALITY beer more favorable marks than the more 
     centered in style beer with processing faults.  how about it judges, 
     where do we stand on this topic?
     
     Roger Ayotte
       


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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:42:37 -0600
From: Eric Dreher <ericd at reliantdata.com>
Subject: Re: Sugar Substitute

Trevor Good asks about corn sugar substitutes for a diabetic friend:

Now I'm no expert on diabetes at all, but I thought the cause of
problems
is simply the sugar.  Please correct me if I'm wrong, but once's yeast
has done
its job, then the sugar's turned to alcohol and CO2, thus no more sugar
and
therefore no longer presenting a problem, no?  Do diabetics have
problems
with beer normally?  Seems like another natural "wonder" of beer.  Lucky
for
us, yeast isn't diabetic.

Eric Dreher
Austin, TX



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Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:27:58 -0600
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: open fermenter?

     John Varady <rust1d at usa.net> writes:
     <<<<<
     At times, I have fermented in a sanke keg with a trash bag over it. It
     fills up like a hot air balloon and looks pretty cool
     (http://www.netaxs.com/people/vectorsys/varady/hbopferm.jpg ). What
     acronym would be used to describe this?
     >>>>>
     Sounds like a beer condom, must be SF (Safe fermenter).


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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:18:04 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Aluminum & pH & temperature

Anyone out there know when (at what pH and temp) aluminum begins to react
with acidic solutions? I don't want to reopen the aluminum is ok/bad
thread, but I am interested in hearing from anybody out there with some
metalurgy knowledge.

The reason I ask, is that I am thinking about using an aluminum pot as my
HLT and only using aluminum for my boil kettle and am wondering at what pH
does aluminum begin to react (and what effect 170degF heat has on that
reaction).

TIA,
Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA
www.hbd.org/starcity/



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Date: Thu, 01 Apr 99 18:48:07 PST
From: "David C. Harris" <hesbrau at onr.com>
Subject: Oxidation of a-acetolactate

Dave Burley identified a problem in my post on diacetyl formation.  I 
stated
that Ca++, Zn++ and Fe+++ would oxidize a-acetolactate into diacetyl.
As he stated is unlikely that Ca++ or Zn++ could be involved in an
oxidation reaction since they are already reduced and would need to be 
in
elemental form to participate.  I need to verify the source I took this 

information from.  I do however stand by my statement that molecular
oxygen is not required to oxidize a-acetolactate into diacetyl.
"Molecular oxygen is not necessary for this oxidation and other electron
donors, e.g. Cu++, Al++ or Fe+++ also increase the formation of diacetyl 
from
a-acetolactate." M+BS 2nd Edition pg. 595.
After reading this I am lead to believe the other information I have, 
confused
which electron donors are involved.  It is also interesting to note that 
the
conversion of a-acetolactate into diacetyl is not an enzymatic reaction.
"Both acetohydroxy acids are excreted by yeast and are non-enzymically
converted, in the medium, to vicinal diketones" M+BS 2nd Edition pg. 595.
I did not mean to imply in my original post that oxygen is not important 
in the
production of diacetyl rather that it is not the only way to oxidize 
a-acetolatate.
I will attempt to track down the other source that indicated Ca and Zn 
could
participate in forming diacetyl and report my findings.
David Harris
Pflugerville (just north of Austin), Texas


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Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:13:13 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Alcohol Testing

I'm interested in brewing some low alcohol beers.  Before starting on the
formulation of these beers I wanted to be able to assay for alcohol content
in my basement brewery/laboratory.  I conducted an experiment to test a
method based on refractive index and specific gravity.  Formulas used in
this experiment are given below;		
		
Reference HBD #2986, March 24th, 1999, Louis Bonham
		
ABV=(277.8851-277.4(SG)+0.9956(Brix)+0.00523(Brix^2)   		
	+0.000015(Brix^3))x(SG/0.79)	
		
I have a hand-held refractometer used for testing sugar in grape juice
that will read 0 to 32 Brix.  It's calibrated in 2 Brix increments.
		
My narrow range hydrometers read in degrees Plato.  Louis Bonham
provided a formula for converting degrees P to specific gravity.		
		
SG=1.000019+(3.865613xPx10[^-3])+(1.296425xPx10[^-5])
        +(5.701128xPx10[^-8])		
							
Source for this formula:  Siebert, K.J., Routine Use of a Programmable
Calculator for Computing Alcohol, Real extract, Original Gravity & Calories
in Beer, ASBC Journal, Vol.38, No. 1, p. 27 (1980).	

For the experiment I added (via buret) various volumes of grain alcohol
(labeled 
95% ABV) to a 250 ml volumetric flask.  I filled to mark with Coors NA beer
(labeled to contain NMT 0.5% ABV).  The Coors NA was degassed.  I assumed	
the labeled alcohol contents were correct in order to arrive at theoretical
alcohol content of the samples.  Samples were filled into colorless Corona
bottles and were capped.  Several days later I ran the tests.
							
Sample	Theo	Test	Differ-	Growth			
#	Alcohol Result	 ence				
	% ABV	% ABV					
1	0.50	0.58	+0.08	yes			
2	0.88	1.26	+0.36	yes			
3	1.45	1.67	+0.22	yes			
4	2.39	2.48	+0.09	yes			
5	4.28	4.25	-0.03	no			
							
I'm trying to find a home test method that will give reliable results at
about 1% ABV.  These results leave some room for improvement but I only ran
one sample at each dilution (I know...bad science and my only excuse is it
required four Coors NA beers for this simple experiment).  The narrow-range
hydrometers allow for very good specific gravity measurements but the
refractometer is calibrated in 2 Brix increments.  You can estimate 1 Brix
differences if you look hard enough.  I think this is a lot of the problem.
I'm going to try this again with multiple samples and see what the spread is.

In addition to the alcohol determination I noticed that all of the samples
had a slight haze except the 4.28% ABV dilution.  It was crystal clear.
Several days passed between sample preparation and testing and I had made no
attempt to sanitize the bottles or lab glassware.  It's no surprise beer
will support microbial growth, just an observation.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas
 
							



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