---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Sparging theory (John S Thompson)
  re: broken thermometer (Lou.Heavner)
  Big brew (Jeremy B. Pugh)
  Thanks for info, 1tier RIMS (dolmans)
  dry stouts & oysters (jim williams)
  Brew Tour ("Pat Galvin")
  SS/Chlorine (Dave Burley)
  Dr. Pivo's diacetyl and other diones (Dave Burley)
  Rice CAP ("Chuck Mryglot")
  BT article... (pbabcock)
  Dave Humes/Ringwood Yeast ("Jim B Verlinde")
  Planting Finished!  & You Spell Harrington - I Spell Herrington (Dan Listermann)
  Short mash. (Joe Rolfe)
  BT and Murphy's (John Adsit)
  Re: Planting Time (Jonathan Peakall)
  diacetyl redux (sic) (smurman)
  Shorter Sacc. Rest (Bill Graham)
  Slow sparge/protein rest with DWC Pils (Ted McIrvine)
  Aeration with Oxygen (Joy Hansen)
  Mash time (Dave Burley)
  RE: Murphys/Heineken connection (John Wilkinson)
  A Newbie Brewer Question/ and a question of my own ("Crossno, Glyn")
  European imports (Bryan Gros)
  Sam Adams Spring Ale clone? (David A Bradley)
  planting time... ("Phil Uecker")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:58:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: John S Thompson <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu>
Subject: Sparging theory

Hello collective HBDers.

I am curious to know if anyone has certain techniques that maximize
(or increase) sugar extraction from a converted mash. I use an insulated
Gott-type cooler, mash in around 152F, let sit for 90 minutes, acidify the
mash & sparge water, etc., and generally only get 70-75% extraction. 

When I sparge, I circulate the first runnings SLOWLY to set the filter
bed. Then I draw these off as I add the first batch of sparge water.
Generally, I sparge in "increments" -- drawing off one batch and then
adding anouther, drawing off that weaker batch and adding another, etc.,
until I've obtained the quantity I need to boil (six gallons or so that
boil down to five).

Would a continuous sparge (or any other tips for that matter) help my
efficiency?

adthanksvance

John Thompson
LSU Department of Economics



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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:11:11 -0500
From: Lou.Heavner at frco.com
Subject: re: broken thermometer

     Rich Moore <cinnamon at erinet.com> writes:
     >>>>
     Jeffrey S. Favrizio wrote:

     " ... I put on the kettle to boil and put the thermometer into the
     kettle to check the temp. It is one of the glass floating types.
     Unfortunately, when I went to remove the thermometer, I noticed that
     it had broken ... Has anyone else had this happen to them, because I
     feel really dumb!"

     There is at least one other dumb person out there.  I've had this
     happen twice with floating thermometers (in my HLT).  I can't answer
     your questions about contaminating the wort, but I was wondering if
     anyone has come up with something to protect the fragile bottoms of
     these thermometers.  There must be some gadgeteer out there with a
     solution.
     <<<<

     How are ya'll breaking them?  If it is from letting the bottom hit the
     kettle when the level falls, try wrapping the ubiquitous copper
     choreboy to the bottom as padding.  You might also add a small chunk
     of styrofoam to the top in case the top hits the side of the kettle.
     Just don't cover the temperature scale so you can still read it.  It
     should still float, but you may have to play with it a bit if the
     added weight causes it to sink too deep.

     Cheers!

     Lou H - Austin, TX


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:06:34 -0600
From: jpugh at hjnews.com (Jeremy B. Pugh)
Subject: Big brew

In #2998 Brian Rezac posted Big Brew information.

He wrote: "Last year, we had one Big Brew site that had three television
stations covering their all-day event that included brewing, raffles, a
children's coloring contest and more."

I was intrigued by the concept but am sad to report that Utah homebrewers
will be unable to participate, at least on a large scale. There will be no
media event in Utah. Just secret homebrew clubs gathering behind closed
doors and drawn shades.

Utah, which for the most part is a great place to live, never really got
over prohibition. Hell, sometimes I think our mucky-mucks would like to
reinstate that fiasco. Liquor laws in here, while not as stiff as some
locales in the bible belt, are somewhat inconvienient.

Everytime an out-of-state friend visits me I have to conduct an impromptu
seminar on all of the quirks of Utah's alchaolic beverage control laws. For
the record, you can get a decent beer here, it is not as watered down and
weak as the rumors say. Utah caps tavern and grocery store alcholol sales
at 3.2% BY WEIGHT. Other states allow 6% percent by VOLUME. Two entirely
different measurements. Beers or beverages that exeed that limit can be
purchased in liquor stores and private clubs, which are a whole other
story.
We have many quality microbrews and one of the largest, Uintah, makes a
hoppy red ale called Cuthroat that is my staple. They also make a smooth
drinking pale lager called Whiptail that I have been moderately succeful in
trying to emulate.
BUt I digress.
Although it is legal to purchase homebrew supplies, (you can't outlaw
grain), it is illegal to put all those yummy ingredients together into an
alcholic beverage with out the proper liscencing, which for the small scale
homebrewers operate is prohibative. You can make a five gallon batch of
green jello and serve it to friends, you can even make it with vodka but a
five gallon batch of beer is unlawful. My brother actually was charged with
unlawful production of alhahol after his house burned down and police found
a burbling, smokey batch of brew in the ashes.
The charges were eventually dropped but anyway I am wondering about other
state's liquor laws, specfically homebrew laws.

I would also like to encourage any Utah brewers on the list to write thier
legislators. Perhaps some of the wizards on the list can provide some
ammunition to justify legalizing homebrewing in Utah.

I will stress that I am not talking about a huge ad campaign or anything.
Most Utah homebrewers I know try not to draw a lot of attention to their
hobby and realistically it is tolerated. Like a prohibition speak easy.

But few letters to a legislator would at least draw some attention to the
matter. During last year's legislative session in Salt Lake City the matter
was brought up and although the propenent's bill was defeated there was a
healthy debate on the matter (search for "homebrew" in the Salt Lake
Tribune's archive at www.saltlaketribune.com).

And have fun with your big brew celebrations, which are a great idea.

Jeremy B. Pugh
Logan, Utah




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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:09:16 +0000
From: dolmans at mail.tss.net
Subject: Thanks for info, 1tier RIMS

Hello Collective
 I posted about a week ago with some questions regarding pumps and
ideas for a one tier RIMS system.  The response was overwhelming and I
just wanted to say thanks to all those who were kind enough to write
me here in the forum or privately.  
 For those who are interested here are the conclusions that I have
come to for a 10 gallon all grain system that must be kept compact and
portable.  
 I will actually go with a two tier system mounting my sparge tank up
high to spare the expense of a second pump and the associated
plumbing. Quick question how high should I mount the sparge tank above
the mash/lauter tun?  The mash/lauter tun and boil kettle will be on
one level and I will use a pump to move the wort from one to the
other.  I will use a lauter grant to catch the wort as it comes out of
the lauter tun and utilise a float switch to run the pump.  This means
a little extra work for me (in the building) but I think that it will
be well worth it.  After boiling I will use the pump to move the wort
through a hopback and into a couterflow chiller. 	 Now that the plans
have been drawn up I will continue to scrounge materials.  I have two
converted kegs and will soon get a third.  The pump has been ordered
and I will start construction of the false bottom this weekend (the
batteries for the drill are charged up).  A friend has the angle iron
and promises to weld it all together when I am good and ready.  In
order to simplify construction, cleaning and fittings all plumbing
will be 1/2 inch copper (unless it is strongly recommended that I do
otherwise?).
   Now another question what are the most suitable burners?  I have
one King Cooker but will need two more burners to make this happen. 
Any suggestions, I need two that are easy to control one for the
sparge tank and one for the mash/lauter tun?  
 Thanks again for everyone's help and the URL's there are some 
very inventive brewers out there.  


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Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 16:58:17 -0800
From: jim williams <jim&amy at macol.net>
Subject: dry stouts & oysters

Hi,
I just thought I'd throw out some more info on the subject.
I was in Ireland 6 mos. ago. Guinness is great, don't get me wrong, but
this was the 4th trip to Ireland in 10 years, and it is getting blander
and blander everytime I go. Towards the end of this trip, I was drinking
Guinness from the bottle, which is still quite amazing. I agree with the
poster who spoke highly of Beamish. Over the years, I have always
enjoyed Beamish also. On top of it being a great beer, it's also the
economy stout in Ireland. It is always a good 20-30 p. cheaper than
anything else. Murphy's, well, the previous poster who quoted an
irishman saying it tasted like bad Guinness, was giving it a compliment.
I hate it. To each his own.

I cannot end this post without mentioning the Porterhouse Brewing Co. in
Dublin. I believe they've been open a couple years now. Owners are card
carrying camra members, who truly know a thing about beer. If you want
to taste  REAL Irish Dry Stout, go to the brewpub in the Temple Bar area
and order a Wrasslers 4x stout. This is the best stout I've ever had, if
not one of the best beers I've ever had. I can't say enough good things
about it. They have an amazing Porter, another stout made with Oysters!,
and at the time had a nice cask red ale.

Don't waste your time on the "Guinness tour" There is no tour. You go
through rooms filled with Guinness propaganda, you get your "free" pint,
(you paid to go on the tour). Of course, it ends in the gift shop.

Those of you into oysters, they are truly amazing in Ireland. My wife
and I had them on 5 separate occasions, with stout, and they were clean,
fresh and good. Ireland is an amazing place. Can't wait to go back a 5th
time!
Jim



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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 18:20:05 -0700
From: "Pat Galvin" <Pat_Galvin at ermwest.com>
Subject: Brew Tour

A message for Northern California HomeBrewers:
The DOZErs (Diablo Order of Zymiracle Enthusiasts) of Concord, CA would
like to invite Bay Area brewers to join us for our 3rd annual brew tour.
The tour is scheduled for Saturday April 17th.  We will meet at Sun Valley
Mall in Concord and travel in a luxurious motor coach to two microbreweries
and a brew pub.  First stop is Lagunitas Brewing in Petaluma for a fine
tour and tastings.  Second stop will be a tour and lunch at the Marin
Valley Brewing in Larkspur (Home of the Marin MountainHoppers).  Final stop
is the Speakeasy microbrewery in San Francisco for yet another tour and
tastings.  Returning to Concord by about 5 PM.
If you don't get enough beer on this tour, you have no one to blame but
yourself.  Cost is $20 to cover the cost of the bus.  Bring some change for
lunch and T-shirts, glasses, etc.
We're having trouble filling the 40 seats on the bus and would like to
invite homebrewers and beer enthusiasts to join us.  Please email me at
pat_galvin at ermwest.com and I will personally send you a flyer with details.
BTW, DOZE is an AHA recognized homebrew club that meets on the last Monday
of every month at Beer, Beer, and More Beer in Concord, CA.  New members
welcome.  (no affiliation blah blah blah - I'm the highly-esteemed club
president)
Cheers
Pat Galvin
(925) 946-0455





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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:29:51 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: SS/Chlorine

Brewsters:

Jeff Luck asks why bleach is a no no with stainless steel and
is contemplating an enamel sink as an alternative to a SS one.

Jeff, the bleach is a no-no for SS to be used under pressure
( like kegs) as the chlorine/chloride combo will etch SS
if left in contact for a long time.  This can lead to stress
cracking and sometimes, perhaps, a chunk of schrapnel
propelled by the carbon dioxide.  Although it usually just
results in a leak, it is hardly worth the gamble when other
non-chlorine alkaline peroxy cleaning agents are available.
- ------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:29:30 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Dr. Pivo's diacetyl and other diones

Brewsters:

Dr. Pivo, I suggest you read my contribution of several
days ago where I listed the diacetyl and pentadione
contents of all major (British?) beer types and noted
the flavor contribution. It may be that these data were taken
on British "lager" which perhaps never saw a lager yeast
nor a diacetyl rest. I would hope that M&BS would have 

used data from continental beers. In any event it seems
likely that all beers contain some diacetyl since it is a by
product of fermentation.   


In M&BS p 457 1st ed. the following commments appeared:

Production of Diketones and Fusel Alcohols

"During the fermentation of brewers' wort by yeast, most of
the pyruvic acid is decarboxylated and the acetaldehyde
produced is reduced to yield ethanol. Some of the pyruvic
acid is converted to acetyl CoA and used for biosynthesis
of lipids and other esters, etc. A small amount of the pyruvic
acid, however, is used in the production of acetoin,
a-acetolactate and a-aceto hydroxybutyrate. The importance
of these compounds lies in the possibility of their being
oxidised to the diketones diacetyl and pentane 2.3 dione
which have strong flavors and aromas. Thus diacetyl
( or butane 2,3 dione) has an overpowering smell and
taste of butterscotch which in concentrations exceeding
1 mg/l (ppm) in ale and 0.5 mg/l ( ppm) in lager beers is
unpleasant. (In low concentrations it is deliberately added
to butter) Pentane 2,3 pentane dione has a sweet honey
aroma.

 .........(p. 259) . Under the conditions pertaining in beer, freed
of yeast, about 4% of the a-acetolactic acid is converted to
diacetyl. If valine is present in excess... there is little tendency
for yeast to produce a-acetolactic acid."

And it goes soforth into the Ehrlich pathway for the formation
of fusel alcohols. 


op cit P460

"Fusel alcohol production in brewery fermentations is
enhanced by increasing levels of amino acids in the wort,
by anaerobic conditions, by higher temperatures and by
continuous agitation."

Thus, I suggest Dr. Pivo do a fermentation in which the
valine concentration is low, so the a-acetolactic
acid concentration is increased and this will
encourage the formation of diacetyl in yeast-free beer.
How to do this?  low N malt ( to reduce valine),
no protein rests ( to reduce valine) and
a substantial amount of brewer's sugar in the grist
( to dilute any valine).

Sound familiar?

It should, if you are a brewer of British beers.

You might even consider two brews one in which you
do a normal brew and the other one in which the wort is
diluted and sugar is added.  You could then blend the
finished (yeast free) beers to the desired diacetyl level.

Your puzzlement over how beer might have one vicinal
dione and not another may result from your derision of
and consequent failure to practice the  "diacetyl rest".
 It may be that the diacetyl goes away faster than the
higher diones during this rest and the honey
character predominates over the butterscotch.
Diacetyl could be more reactive or more easily
consumed by the yeast during the diacetyl rest.
This could explain your dilemma.

Diacetyl in lagers *is* considered a fault as it can be  

present in large quantities in lager due to a pediococcus
infection, but  it and the pentane dione is normally
present in low quantities ( if the above referenced
table is correct) as I have indicated.Diacetyl should
not be considered a fault in low concentrations.
- ----------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 07:23:49 -0400
From: "Chuck Mryglot" <cmryglot at Progress.com>
Subject: Rice CAP

A while back there was some discussion about brewing CAP with rice and if I
remember correctly some folks were going to go off an brew up some.   Anyone
have anything to report back on this.... Jeff Renner...are you out there?

CHuckM



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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: BT article...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Jack sez...

> First of all, I can not read the page because of the background. It's
> black text on very dark background and is totally unreadable to me.
> Not sure what motivates folks to post such stuff but.....

To which I say, it's not. It is a woodgrain background with a table on top
of it. Column one is orange with the magazine cover on it. Column two is
white with the article on it. It is _YOUR_ browser that is in question,
Jack me boy. You're likely out of date. 

Jack has just triggered a peeve of mine. And, being a HTML-responsible
clod myself, I just have to come to the aid of someone using extensions to
the HTML standards to make their page a richer experience. Yeah, yeah:  it
makes the page unreadable for some out-of-date browsers, but you advance
the technology by using it and its new features. (And colored cell
backgrounds in tables isn't all that recent, either.) 

As an HTML writer, you used to have to choose between the slick features
with the new standards, or making the page accessible to the lowest common
denominator.  But, Netscape was a purchased package back then, too. Now,
thanks to (the evil?) Microsoft, Netscape has been driven to distribute
their browser fee-free as well.  Hell! Even AOL now provides a TCP/IP
socket so you can use your own clients (as of AOL 3.5, I believe. They're
up to 4.0 now...). With all this accessibility, you can't be responsible
for those unwilling or incapable in keeping their (might I note it again: 
free...) software up to date. 

For others experiencing this difficulty in a Windoze environment, you can
upgrade your browser at www.netscape.com (Netscape v4.5) or
www.microsoft.com/ie (Internet Explorer v5.0). Unix/Mac/Etc are
unfortunately on their own. I'll add links for downloading updated
browsers to the HBD homepage to make them easier to find.

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:02:31 -0400
From: "Jim B Verlinde" <beans at voyager.net>
Subject: Dave Humes/Ringwood Yeast

I have used Wyeast 1187 xl with great success. It is a Ringwood strain that
I think is new to Wyeast. It has added the maltiness to my ESB that I have
been looking for. FWIW, I use an open fermentation and skim the surface as
well as gently rouse the wort each day. This was suggested by the brewer at
Arcadia Brewing in Kalamazoo, MI who uses Ringwood in his ESB.

Jim Verlinde
Grand Rapids, MI




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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:16:02 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Planting Finished!  & You Spell Harrington - I Spell Herrington

I just planted my fifth attempt at growing barley ( Harrington) a few
minutes ago.  Thanks for all the advice!.  Hamilton County, Ohio (
Cincinnati) does not seem to have human extension agents.  The 
"Homebrewers
Garden," by Fisher & Fisher was a big help and some of the recommended 
web
sites were as well. It is supposed to rain tonight or tomorrow.  I expect

by late next week I will see little green blades!

I bought a soil test kit for $8.00 that checked the pH and N.  I was 
quite
surprised at the amount of hydrated lime required ( 12 lbs over 800 sq.
ft.) and 10% N fertilizer ( 16 lbs) required to get the soot colored
railbed dirt to spec. ( unearthed two more spikes)  It turns out that the

lime should have been put down months ago, but I had to do what I had to
do.  


This fall I hope somebody reminds me to turn the bed over and check pH so

things go better next year.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ----------------------------------------

Reading the digest this morning I noticed that I misspelled Harrington in

my post yesterday.  I never could spell.

Dan Listermann       dan at listermann.com          
72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 10:43:00 -0400
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: Short mash.

"Mark W. Wilson" <mwilson at ichips.intel.com> mentioned:
"I just can't see where the time savings are with overnight mashing,
unless you have some kind of robot doing a 6 hour decoction mash for
you while you sleep.  Modern malt only takes 5-15 minutes to convert,
all the books recommending longer sacchrification mashes are wrong."

I'll bet intel could build you the robot and get the software from
microsoft....Good point on the durations 'urban legend #1' - "if it
aint converted after 30 minutes it probably wont get there...", this
is what I have been told and seen - had seen negative Iodine tests in
10 minutes with some british malts.  But you just do not want to stick
your mash at 15XF for 15 min, mashout, recirc and runoff....'urban
legend #2', that I subscribe to, mentioned around 3 to 3.5hrs (as a
rough minimum) water contact time...When you get that robot let me
know - I want one...got to be alot cheaper than a $10-$15/hr
brewmonkey over the long run.


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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 09:52:01 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: BT and Murphy's

Jack Schmidling responded:

> First of all, I can not read the page because of the background. It's
> black text on very dark background and is totally unreadable to me.
> Not sure what motivates folks to post such stuff but.....

To what are you referring?  My post in HBD?  Not likely.  It was sent,
like all HBD messages, in plain text.  The BT message?  It has a bright
white background on my browser.  Please don't be too quick to call
others morons.  The problem could be somewhere else.
- --------------
Scott Bridges asked:

> >I'd just like to add a lttle more info about Murphy's.  I toured the
> >Heineken brewery/museum in Amsterdam last summer, and part of the tour
> >showed the kind of malt they use when they make Murphy's Irish Stout.
> >Yes, it may be made in Cork, but it is owned by Heineken.
>
> John,
> Do you know this, or are you speculating?  Just because Heineken brews
> Murphys in Amsterdam, doesn't necessarily mean they own it.  Guinness brews
> Bud in Ireland.  Doesn't mean they own the brand.  They are licensed to brew
> it.  I don't have a clue, but it's interesting if true.

The tour guides told us Heineken owns Amstel, Brand, and Murphy's.  I
did not verify that, but I figured they wouldn't lie.  By the way, if
you've never had Brand, it's a pretty good Dutch Pilsner.  At least it's
better than Heineken and Amstel, in my opinion. According to Michael
Jackson, it was the beer that got the concession to supply the Allied
troops as they pushed toward Germany after D-Day.

- --
John Adsit
Boulder, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us


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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:04:06 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: Re: Planting Time

Jay,

Wait! Don't even think of miracle grow! As a long time organic farmer, here
is what I would do:

First, do get some topsoil, about 1/2 to 2/3 of your container volume.
Then, get some manure ( horse or steer, you can buy it in bags at
nurseries) and if obtainable, "humus builder". If no humus builder, then
bagged compost or a good organic potting soil.

The above is the minimum soil requirements (IMHO). If it was me, I'd get
some chicken manure pellets. Mix a couple big handfuls of it in the
container prior to planting. Water in well. I'd also add trace elements,
especially if you dont know where the topsoil is from. Another excellent
thing to do is get some vitamin b-12 supplement (one brand is called
"Start") and use it according to directions. It promotes vigorous root
growth. I usually soak a transplant with it 24 hours in advance of the
event.

As to Miracle grow, while it is impressive in the short run, it will kill
your soil in the long run. MG, and all other synthetic fertilizers will
build salts up in your soil, and add no organic material vital to the
micro-organisms, and vital for good drainage. I would top dress with
chicken manure, blood meal, or a premixed organic fertilizer (GreenAll
makes an easy to use solid one).

One last tip: In the spring, and up until the plants start to bud, feed
them with something high in nitrogen, like chicken manure. As they start to
bud, feed them with something like bone meal, which is high in phosphorus.
This will promote bigger, tighter, more fragrant buds.

Organic is a little  more hassle. However, you get better results, and your
beloved plants won't pither and die after a few years, and hops are
something you want healthy for years to come. And hey, you wanna eat
MacDonald's for every meal for the rest of your life? Ughh.

Good hop growing,

Jonathan Peakall


Spies at dhcd.state.md.us

********************************************

"I don't feel we did wrong in taking this great country away from
them. There were great numbers of people who needed new land, and
the Indians were selfishly trying to keep it for themselves."
 -- John Wayne

********************************************




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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 09:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: smurman at shell5.ba.best.com
Subject: diacetyl redux (sic)

Seems to me that folks might be confusing two sides of the same coin
regarding diacetyl.  On one hand there are commercial products, where
diacetyl, along with many other flavor components, can merge to form a
great brew.  Commercial brewers are usually highly knowledgable, have
sufficient resources, pitch suitable quantities of yeast, have in-line
oxygenators, temperature-controlled conical fermenters, etc. etc.  On
the other hand we have homebrewers, who often severely under-pitch,
don't pay attention to ferment temps, etc.  These homebrewers can
produce beer that has an overwhelming diacetyl component.  It seems
that some may be confusing trying to help homebrewers produce better
beer (viz. reducing unreasonable diacetyl levels) with campaigning to
rid all beer of diacetyl flavors.

 -SM-


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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:42:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Bill Graham <weg at micro-net.net>
Subject: Shorter Sacc. Rest

in hbd #2999, Mark Wilson said:
>> Modern malt only takes 5-15 minutes to convert, all the books
>> recommending longer sacchrification mashes are wrong.

>> After a pro brewer enlightened me on this point, I shortened my sac. 
>> rest times from 1 hour to 15 minutes, with no change in extract level,
>> just more body and mouthfeel in the resulting beers. 

I say:
	Hey! Is this true? Have I been wasting 75 minutes of my life for
every batch of beer I've made?

	On the other hand, if you wait such a short time(only until
complete conversion), does that mean you will get excessive body and
mouthfeel? 

	Was the 60-90 minute mash time just one of the those things
that people(like me) took as gospel and mindlessly repeated? (i.e., a
momily).

Feeling foolish in Golden
	Bill

"...the only way to deal with bureaucrats is with stealth and sudden
violence."  -  Butros Butros-Ghali



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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 11:41:05 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Slow sparge/protein rest with DWC Pils

I have the same exact problem:  I use DWC Pils (great malt!) and a
modified version of the easymasher.  Every time I do a protein rest, I
have a very sticky and slow run-off.  I'm starting to think that the
protein rest is to blame because I don't have as much difficulty when I
mash in around 150-155.

Does anyone in the collective wisdom have any explanations or thoughts?

Cheers
Ted

> From: Adrian Griffin <agriffin at softcom.net>
> Subject: Slow sparge/protein rest
> 
> I did my first mash with a protein rest last Saturday and had a very
> slow runoff.  Sparging my batch took 4 hours, much to the disgust of my
> spouse who does not like me monopolizing the kitchen for that long.
> 
> I'd appreciate any thoughts from the collective on how to avoid this
> problem.
> 
> I have used Jack Schmidling's Easymasher without any problems at all


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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:17:04 GMT
From: happyhansen at scronline.com (<happyhansen at scronline.com>)

Received: from cust22.scronline.com ([207.212.244.87])
	by scronline.com (wcSMTP [445])
	with SMTP id 479719159; Thu, 08 Apr 1999 17:17:00 GMT
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Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
To: homebrew at hbd.org
From: happyhansen at scronline.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Aeration with Oxygen

Hi Collective,

Most likely I missed the thread concerning use of welding oxygen to aerate
wort.  However, I purchased an oxy-acetylene outfit and have the bottle of
welding oxygen at hand.  The only thing I can think of that might influence
my brew toxicisity is oil or the like.  Certainly not something that could
be easily oxydized as the bottle environment could be hazardous.  As for
bacteria in the system, the 2200  #s per square inch is so high above 15 or
so psi that I think most life forms might be crushed?  The hoses are swept
clear of tooling stuff and the welding tip is heated well above boiling.
So, the spoilage bacteria shouldn't be a problem; when, I attach a clean
hose to the welding tip and use a diffuser in the wort for a minute for so.


Seems like it should work OK when standard safety practices are followed.
I'm using a Williams SS diffuser coupled to a brass wand headed by a hepta
filter at 1 micron.  Most likely too large for bacteria.  It should keep
the larger stuff out.  Is a chemical trap necessary, like activated carbon,
etc.?

Joy"T"Brew member BURP
Scottsburg, VA





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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:21:20 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mash time

Brewsters:

I agree with Mark Wilson's assessment of the doubtless
advantage of overnight mashing and did when I first
read about it in Dave Line's first book lo' these many years
ago. It was a compromise then using the "Bruheat" electric
brewer and it is today.  Is it worth the compromise? I doubt
it, but it does have some appeal to some people who can
devote shorter time slots to brewing. It is better to brew
than to not brew.

Mark also says: " Modern malt only takes 5 -15 minutes
to convert. All the books recommending longer
saccharification mashes are wrong." He claims a
professional brewer tipped him off to this and he
reduced his saccharification time and got better
beers quicker.

Sorry, Mark, but I have met "professional brewers" who
have told me lots of things that were B.S. learned at the
knee of Charlie Papazian. This is one of them.

In Charlie's first book he makes a similar comment and
bases it (I presume) on an iodine test in which only the
starch in the solution was tested.  Fortunately, he corrects
this in his second edition of JOHB and suggests that some
of the malt solids also be tested for the presence of
starch and also offers longer mash times as a result.
I have used this latter method before I ever heard of CP
and, although others may differ, this is the best way to
do the iodine test, IMHO.

No change in your extraction in going from 1 hour
saccharifications to 15 minutes is a meaningless result
without some quantitative numbers.

You could be mill limited. Like how many pts? What OG?
What grist? Clarity? What about mixed grists which
include non-malted grains, etc., etc.

Are you talking about single infusion mashes
only? What temperature? Higher temperature mashes
do  go more quickly. Well doughed-in mashes will proceed
more quickly as the temperature is raised as contrasted to 

using one strike heat and mashing out. The temperatures 

over which enzymes react are broad and the temperature
history of the mash is extremely important. Since amylases
are inhibited by the presence of sugars, the grist/liquor ratio
is important, as is the OG of the wort. The calcium ion
content and the pH of the wort can also be important.

I do not doubt your results, but, my point is, your comment
is extremely misleading unless we know the exact
details of your mashing procedure.

Is it worth the risk when you consider all the time this
whole process consumes?

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 


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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:40:42 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Murphys/Heineken connection

Scott Bridges wrote as to Heineken owning Murphy's:

>Do you know this, or are you speculating?  Just because Heineken brews
>Murphys in Amsterdam, doesn't necessarily mean they own it.  Guinness brews
>Bud in Ireland.  Doesn't mean they own the brand.  They are licensed to brew
>it.  I don't have a clue, but it's interesting if true.  

I have some second hand information, if that is worth anything.
A good friend of my son's (actually mine too as I have known him since he was
a toddler) works for a company that supplies beer to US military bases in
Europe and one of their biggest suppliers is Heineken.  He has made many trips
to Heineken and has annual meetings with them to boot.  He had told me that
Heineken owned Murphy's and, indeed, their last annual meeting was at the
Murphy's brewery in Ireland.  He said he was amazed at what a small operation
it appeared to be.  That, however, was probably in comparison to Miller, his
former employer.

I must admit I am somewhat envious of his job, at least the travel to European
breweries part.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:48:38 -0500 
From: "Crossno, Glyn" <Glyn.Crossno at cubic.com>
Subject:  A Newbie Brewer Question/ and a question of my own 

>> 1.  The homebrew shop owner I talked to suggested using a grain bag for
sparges.

Mark W. Wilson answered:
>I started all-grain using a grain bag in 5 gallon bucket.    Cleanup is a
breeze with >the grain bag.  Now I'm using a square picnic cooler and 1/2"
copper pipe manifold, >so i can do high gravity or 10 gallon batches.

I did my steeping and later partial mashes in a grain bag.  The sparge if
any was done in another pot.  As a step toward better beer, it was quick,
cheap and worth it.  But it was a stepping stone.  I now use the rectangular
cooler, 1/2" copper manifold.  8 gallons of barleywine or 14 gallons of
lower gravity beers.

>> 2.  The owner (and many people on HBD) also suggested using an overnight
>> mash to shorten brewing sessions.

I do this and like doing it that way.  Sometimes mash in on my way to work
and finish up when I get home.

Mark W. Wilson answered:
>Modern malt only takes 5-15 minutes to convert, all the books
>recommending longer sacchrification mashes are wrong.

Am I missing the boat?  To my discredit, with all the other things I've
mucked with, and up, I have never done an iodine test.  All "modern malts"?
Single step? Multi?

Mark W. Wilson typed:
>After a pro brewer enlightened me on this point, I shortened my sac. rest
>times from 1 hour  to 15 minutes, with no change in extract level, just
more
>body and mouthfeel in the resulting beers.  

This sounds good.  How about terminal gravity?  I'll try it next brew!  

>The negatives of overnight
>mashing are a) overconversion b) possible sourness from lactobacillus in
the
>grain (unlikely to be perceptable) c) stuck mashes, as you have discovered.

a - FG is controllable by the strike temperature.  I've hit 1.006 and 1.018
with SG of 1.055.  Mouthfeel I would have to compare side by side, but I
have made some chewy beer overnight.

b -  not perceptible
c - my only stuck mash or semi-stuck were not over night!  Rye once, and
cereal mash once.  I have done both and not stuck so not sure of the exact
cause.

Glyn "Hug those bines" Crossno---
     "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin



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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:33:26 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: European imports

The recent thread on Guinness vs. Murphys vs. Beamish 
is interesting.

It is great now being able to try these beers side by side. I've
never been a big Guinness fan, and my favorite of the three is
Murphys. Both Murphys and Beamish have a bit more maltiness
or sweetness which, to me, helps balance all the roast and 
bitterness.

>From a judge perspective, it is nice to have three world
class beers available, all the same style, yet all different.

On a similar note, I have heard that Budweiser Budvar is now
being imported into the US under the name Crystal (or
Cristal) lager. Can anyone confirm this rumor? I have not
found it here in the SF Bay Area, but I haven't been looking
too hard yet.

  - Bryan

Bryan Gros
Oakland CA




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Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:49:47 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: Sam Adams Spring Ale clone?


Greetings.  Since nobody else commented on this recent post...

>Posting 7: Extracted from file:  2997
>Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:27:10 -0400
>From: Chuck Cubbler <chuck at maguire.com>
>Subject: Sam Adams Summer Ale Clone
>
>A few days ago, Tom Puskar asked for recipes for a SA Summer Ale clone.  No
>one (I think) has responded so far, so here's my recipe, thanks to Phyllis
>at Beercrafters (no affiliation, yada, yada).....
>
>5 Gallon, Partial Mash
>
>3# Malted Wheat
>1# Belgian Carapils
>
>Single Infusion  at  ~152?F, 1 hr., 1? qts per #
>Sparge with 5 qts  at  168?F
>
>3.3# Northwestern Weizen LME
>1# Wheat DME
>2 oz Czech Saaz 3.2%
>Fresh Lemon Zest (yellow outer skin) from 2 lemons
>? tsp Paradise Seeds, Crushed
>
>60 min boil, add hops, zest, seeds after 45 min
>Wyeast Belgian Wheat (#3942)
>
>OG= 1.032, FG= 1.007
>
>This was not quite a copy, but very tasty indeed.  I'll be making more
>soon.
>

This sounds more like a clone of Sol Sun (new name = ?) from Bell's.
It does not fit the earlier descriptions exerpted below.  The lemon zest and
seeds of paradise should not be in a Koelsch style ale; rather the very
crisp fruitiness should derive from the yeast primarily.  The noble hops are
OK,
though I haven't calculated the IBUs.  Don't over hop your Koelsch though...
a very nice hop *taste* is the target, not huge hop aroma or too much
bitterness.
Now if I could just find some of this SA beer to try!

>From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
>Subject: Sam Adams Spring Ale
>
>Last December, Jim Booth asked for opinions about Sam Adams Apring Ale
>as an example of Koelsch.  I recently found some on a trip through
>Atlanta and offer the following observations for comment:
>
>I wouldn't consider myself an arbiter of the style, having tasted
>"echt Koelsch" only once, but I think the Sam Adams may be a bit off
>the mark. It lacks the gentle maltines and slight fruitiness that I
>recall, and may be slightly over-bittered.  Aspen Brewing's
>"Tire-Biter" ale is another American Koelsch-style ale that I think
>hits much closer to the mark.

and this post...

>From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Koelsch
>
>My favorite Koelsch is Goose Island Koelsch.  I've never had an
>authentic Koelsch from Cologne, but the Goose Island is a very good
>match for the descriptions that I've read.  It has a delicate malty
>flavor with a slight trace of noble hops.
>

Yes, I've also enjoyed this Goose Island ale...at least what I can find
before SOMEBODY (hi Paul) buys it all up.  Its a terrific balance of
maltiness and hop flavor, perhaps a little too much hop aroma?
and this last post...

>From: Peter Bertone <bertone at physics.unc.edu>
>Subject: Sam Adams Spring Ale
>
>
>A while back someone asked for opinions about whether Sam Adams Spring
>Ale fit the stye of a koelsch. One of my office mates is a German who did
>his Ph.D. in Cologne. I thought it would be fun to give him a bottle of
>SASA to evaluate. I was very doubtful that he would find SASA to resemble
>a real koelsch. He was even more doubtful, and he had a good laugh about
>the notion of a koelsch-style ale being a "Spring" ale. The surprise was
>that both he and his wife found that SASA does taste like koelsch. There
>were no qualifications in what he said; "It tastes like koelsch". However,
>he also said that SASA is darker than koelsch and the head retention and
>density are also much higher. (He claims a dense, long lasting head is not
>present in a real koelsch.) He told me that he was even more surprised
>that SASA tasted like koelsch when he saw that it looked more like German
>Pils.
>This person also grew up in Duesseldorf so I plan to run a few
>iterations of homebrewed altbier by him.
>

Dave in Indy
Home of the 3-B Brewery, currently in storage between houses :-(





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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:27:26 -0500
From: "Phil Uecker" <uecker at hpnc.com>
Subject: planting time...

SOP for ANYTHING should be to shy away from the Miracle Gro type of
fertilizers.  These are heavily laden with non-soluble salts.  Especially if
you are growing in containers-I don't care what size- you will eventually
end up with a build up of these salts.  It will then take more and more of
these fertilizers to keep the plants satisfied.  I suggest a more earth
friendly approach.  Use a combination of good soil and composted materials
for the growing medium.  A little rock powder or lava sand will aid in
drainage as well as moisture retention.
Use worm castings or some nice composted bat guano as a top dressing for the
nitrogen boost.
My first brew attempt in 15 years is in the secondary now (Blackstrap
Porter) but my garden has been abundant for years.
Member TOGA (Texas Organic Growers Association)

Ale's well that ends well

:  I'm planning on getting six 35 gallon
:rubbermaid-type trash cans, and paying someone to fill them with, er, fill
dirt (I live in the city).
: I'll probably add some topsoil in the upper layer of each.  Each can will
get its own
: but what's SOP for adding (Miracle-Gro) type fertilizer in what
:amounts to get the proper nutritional balance to ensure the optimal amount
of hoppy goodness???



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---