---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Utah Beer (mike rose)
  Diacetyl defense:  Should it really be necessary? ("Dr. Pivo")
  Cannon #2 ("Dr. Pivo")
  extract and kegs (Rick Lassabe)
  cheap chiller (Kim Thomson)
  Digest policies... (Homebrew Digest)
  Sanitation with One-Step (todd.m.morris)
  Re: Myths about Utah beer revealed (Jesse Stricker)
  Storing bulk malt ("Don")
  Re: sulphate (Jeff Renner)
  Cats Meow Recipes? ("G. Bowden Wise")
  Re: Cats Meow Recipes (pbabcock)
  Finding Hallertau Hallertau hops (mike rose)
  1st Round Nationals Judging - California Region (Tyce Heldenbrand)
  Murphy Brewery ownership (David Elm)
  mash time correction. ("Mark W. Wilson")
  Corny kegs & Beermeister/ WhiteLabs Burton Ale yeast (Rick Gontarek)
  Re: one tier rims (Jim Wallace)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at
http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier!
Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99.  Details on the HBD Competition
Calendar for June 1999 (http://hbd.org). 2000 MCAB qualifier!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 00:02:08 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Utah Beer

>

> Jeremy B. Pugh
>
> Perhaps someone can explain how large-scale commercial breweries seperate
> Utah beer from teh rest of the country when producing beer in, as the
> commercial says, vats the size of Rhode Island. I can't imagine they create
> a seperate "Utah batch."
>

Maybe they don't use separate vats. Maybe Budmillercoors takes their regularbeer
and cuts it with water to lower the alc level.

That statement was oxymoronit, wasn't it?

                        Mike Rose   Riverside, CA     mike at hopheads.com






Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 12:07:10 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Diacetyl defense:  Should it really be necessary?

Dave Burley had some suggestions derived from theoretical sources on how
to increase diacetyl levels:

> Thus, I suggest Dr. Pivo do a fermentation in which the
> valine concentration is low, so the a-acetolactic
> acid concentration is increased and this will
> encourage the formation of diacetyl in yeast-free beer.
> How to do this?  low N malt ( to reduce valine),
> no protein rests ( to reduce valine) and
> a substantial amount of brewer's sugar in the grist
> ( to dilute any valine).

Hmmmm. And I use under modified malts, do do a protein rest, and never
add any sugar (shoot for between 10-12 plato), and still manage to steer
the diacetyls in the direction I want to. Might mention that the Czechs
do the same.

Then again, I don't have any "yeast free" beers.

I guess it just goes to show that a little (centuries) of brewing
practice can carry you farther than theoretical inference.

One reason you absolutely do not want to reduce total protein levels too
much, is that the body of the beer must be one of the components that
stand in opposition to the diacetyl, and brings it into balance. In a
body less beer, it easily becomes an "unopposed taste".

> Your puzzlement over how beer might have one vicinal
> dione and not another may result from your derision of
> and consequent failure to practice the  "diacetyl rest".
>  It may be that the diacetyl goes away faster than the
> higher diones during this rest and the honey
> character predominates over the butterscotch.
> Diacetyl could be more reactive or more easily
> consumed by the yeast during the diacetyl rest.
> This could explain your dilemma.

Very interesting idea.  It might be worth trying a "side-by side"
diactyl rest, and non rested, in one where I have already perceptable
levels, and see if there is a preferential reduction of the 4 carb,
while leaving the 5 carb essentially unmolested.... but then again,
perhaps Mr. Burley would care to do this "experiment" himself..... nah,
that could get dangerously close to reality, and it is probably best to
just cite literature, as one really just can't believe what is in front
of one's face.

> Diacetyl in lagers *is* considered a fault as it can be  
> 
> present in large quantities in lager due to a pediococcus
> infection, but  it and the pentane dione is normally
> present in low quantities ( if the above referenced
> table is correct) as I have indicated.Diacetyl should
> not be considered a fault in low concentrations.

I wonder which book Mr: Burley has chosen to let dictate his and other's
tastes.

I would suggest a trip to the Czech Republic was in order, to correct
his inlearned miss-impressions. There you will find quite high levels of
all manners of taste components (as mentioned 5-6 times threshold in
diacetyls), in a wonderfull marriage of flavours... I can guarantee you
that it is not pediococcus infections that are causing it... I know one
brewery there that doesn't pasteurize at all, and has incredibly strict
microbiological control over its product....but still has diacetyls.

Does Mr. Burley think that these things happen by chance?  That those
poor dolts that have had breweries hanging around for 6 centuries have
no idea what they are doing, and just keep repeating the same mistakes?

Perhaps he could pack up his little library and offer his services as a
consultant there, as they apparently haven't known until now that
they've been doing it "wrong" all this time.

But then again, while Mr. Burley was teaching them how to get it right,
he might bump into a copy of "Pivovarska' Enzymologie" by Dr. Lhotsky.

I do believe it was published in the early 60's and has more information
on brewing enzyme kinetics than anything I've ever read written in
English to date, including the "bibles" you continually quote from,
whose chief influence has been from the production of modern commercial
beer (who cares?).

Have you not an opportunity to get to Czecho, if you're by my cellar you
can drop in... It's really the only place outside of the former
Czechoslovakia where I've tasted that style... you might come in the
summer time, because then it is likely that I will have visits from
brewmasters from Czech land and you would then have the opportunity to
teach several of us at once why we are doing it wrong... if you still
want to think that after your third swallow.

I do agree that in a "Coors", diactyls would hang out like dog's
testicles, but so would any other flavour...... but we don't want to
teach people to make "Coors", or do we Mr. Burley?

Dr. Pivo

Boy, you really can't post anything contrary to the mundanely
hypothetical here, without raising the wrath of the proselytes.


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:15:27 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: Cannon #2

Dave Burley wrote

> Diacetyl in lagers *is* considered a fault

Which really awakened a sense of ire in me, and I replied in a not too
friendly fashion, as to why I think he is completely wrong.

I really had to examine my feelings on this, and I am pretty sure why I
am so touchy on this subject.

I have followed the developments in the Czech Republic since the "velvet
revolution" with great interest.

What has developed is NOT of great interest for the lovers of their
traditional beers.

To start with, over 30 percent of the breweries have out and out closed,
some of them with hundreds of years of experience in developing a unique
taste. (small tear.)

Of the remaining, yes the diacetyl levels are coming down, so are the
protein contents, the hopping rates, and everything else that made these
beers unique.  Some have gone so far as to reach the class of what I
call "Euro-Beer", and are not even recognizable as distinctly "Czech"
anymore.

They have to.  The open market economy has ensured that they can no
longer be a local producer.  They used to have a 10 day shelf life on
their bottles.  Now it is 18 months at some places.  How is that
achieved?  They must reduce flavours that are unstable.  It turns out
that diacetyls, and a lot of the other big flavours are not terribly
stable, and will not survive long transports, storages, and temperature
changes.

Their local market is being taken away by the big rational fellows who
can sell for a few kopek less, and have a good distribution network.
While you and I might still choose the "better" beer, it is not you and
I keeping these places in business, particularly in times of inflation,
when the average citizen encounters spiraling prices on every front,
with relatively unchanged wages.

I used to love the days when I had a favourite haunt, knew the beer was
delivered on Tuesdays, and would crawl into my stool and sip at some of
the most wonderful creations man has accomplished.  On Wednesdays, it
tasted like "yesterdays beer". Still fantastic mind you, but not "all"
the way there.

On Thursdays there came a new shipment.

This is dissappearing, by reducing unstable components.

The beer is not as good either.

I know that this is an unavoidable course, and globalization is somewhat
equivalent to homogenization, and that it will lead to less great beers
rather than more.

But should a homebrewer propagate the acceleration of this process?

Shame on you, Dave Burley.

Should you not be aware that a whole class of lagers, the ones that have
given us names like "Pilsners" and have inspired brewers with names like
"Budweiser" and "Michelob" (which is I believed derived from the East
Slovak "Michelav"... anyone know?), should you somehow not have managed
to be aware that part of their full character is DEPENDENT on having
high diacetyl levels, then perhaps you should restrain your comments to
subjects on which you are better informed.

How 'bout "Clinitest"?

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 08:28:38 -0500
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: extract and kegs

I was the one that asked about the feasibility of using soda kegs to
store and dispense liquid extract. To make a long story short; I
couldn't get it to even start coming out the keg with 50 lb.. pressure.
I still think this is the best place to store the extract, I now just
pour out what I need, purge the O2 out of the keg and place about 5 lb.
of CO2 back on the keg. I am using a keg without the rubber handles,
just makes it easier to pour without a mess.
Rick Lassabe
Bayrat's
"Bayou Degradable Brewery"



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Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 13:06:13 -0500
From: Kim Thomson <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: cheap chiller

   John Penn posted about sources for a cheep chiller...


       We sell a 25' immersion chiller with a garden hose fitting for
$22.  I make them myself and have made them a bit larger in diameter
than a can of extract to about 5 gallon carboy size.

Kim Thomson
- --
ALA-BREW
Homebrewing Supplies
Birmingham, AL
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew/
Full Service Home Beer And Wine Brewing Supply






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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:41:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Homebrew Digest <hbd at brew.oeonline.com>
Subject: Digest policies...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

To preclude the rant that is likely to ensue due to the preceding
post, and, hopefully, to stem the flow of complaining notes into the
Janitors' mailbox, I submit the following quoted directly from the Digest 
moderation policy:

3.      Posting blatant commercials to the HBD is *strongly*
        discouraged.  While such messages will not be deleted if they
        have *any* connection with beer and brewing, the HBD Steering
        Committee will encourage the HBD readership not to patronize
        businesses who clearly are abusing the HBD.
4.      Brief product or sale announcements, comments about or reviews
        of products or publications, and query responses that suggest
        a particular product or merchant (e.g., "In response to XXX's
        inquiry, my shop has a supply of corny kegs for $15 each")
        are appropriate HBD messages and *are* encouraged.


Cheers!

The Home Brew Digest Janitorial Staff



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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:24:34 -0400
From: todd.m.morris at ac.com
Subject: Sanitation with One-Step

After a long and frustrating absence from Homebrewing, this weekend
represents my return.  Unfortunately, I now remember the things I always
had problems with before.  Sanitation has always been a mystery to me, and
last night re-proved that.  I decided to use One-Step for no particular
reason other than perceived ease.  I question the No-Rinse capabilities of
this product, but I'm not convinced that's not caused by my misuse.  1
Tablespoon dissolved in 1 gallon of warm water should suffice, right?  Even
following these directions faithfully, the air-dried sanitized equipment
showed signs of a foggy white haze, reminiscent of water spots, but more
cloudy.  This didn't really seem sanitized to me, so I rinsed the equipment
with hot tap water (in this case, just a flask, measuring cup, and airlock
used for making a yeast starter).  I realize this jeopardizes the
sanitation quality of the One-Step, but it just didn't look right.  So....
on to the questions.

1.  Should I reduce the amount of One-Step I use per gallon? (I don't want
to make it too weak)
2.  Is it possible it just wasn't dissolved enough?
3.  How much have I screwed up my starter?
4.  Has anyone else had results like this with One-Step, or can recommend
using something else (Idophor?) to avoid this?

Relaxing, not worrying (yet), and having a Homebrew,
 -Todd


                                  n n n n




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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:38:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jesse Stricker <jds19 at duke.edu>
Subject: Re: Myths about Utah beer revealed


	On Friday, April 9th, Jeremy B. Pugh wrote:

> During college, my friends and I conducted a study to settle the on-going
> debate. However, our collection of primary data at bars and house parties
> until all hours of the night skewed our findings, preventing us from
> accurately measuring the difference from Utah beer and the supposed "real"
> beer.
>
> Once during the study, we wound up walking into this complete other study
> where we didn't know anyone. Unfortunately, it turned out to be totally
> lame -- most of the people there were in the non-drinking control group. We
> had fun for a little while busting on them, but pretty soon we split.
> 
>  Among the our team's findings: A 10-ounce serving of Jack Daniels can be
> consumed 30 percent faster when accompanied by shouts of "Go! Go! Go! Go!";
> the bathroom at The White Owl is a popular place to throw up; and when Dr.
> Andrew Schmid drinks five Long Island iced teas, he lies down in the street
> and starts singing the chorus to The Dream Academy's "Life In A Northern
> Town" at the top of his lungs.

	which was copyrighted by The Onion as of 1999.  The problem with 
plagiarism is that there's always someone out there who's read the same 
stuff you have.  Check out the original, which *is* really funny, at 

	<http://www.theonion.com/onion3511/college_drinking.html>

	Beer question:  I recently bought a turkey fryer (Brinks, I 
think) for brewing beer.  It's great!  I got a 40 gallon aluminum kettle 
and a 170 K BTU propane ring burner for about $100.  Does anyone know how 
many batches of beer (1 hour boiling of 5 gallons) I can get out of a 
normal tank of propane?

	Jesse

- --
	Jesse Stricker				jds19 at acpub.duke.edu




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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:49:25 -0700
From: "Don" <ferment at flash.net>
Subject: Storing bulk malt

Wil of Happy Dog Brewing Supplies asks about
"Bulk Malt extract in soda kegs"

Most of our customers who buy bulk malt (in 5 gal Pails) simply purge the
air out with their CO2 by just inserting the CO2 line into the bucket and
turning on the CO2 for a minute or so.

I don't think that the extract would flow through the small openings of a
keg.

I spoke with Tom Alexander from Alexander's (Calif. Concentrates) about
storage.  He recommended putting a little vodka on top of the malt to kill
bacteria.

Hope this helps
Don Van Valkenburg
Stein Fillers Brewing Supply
www.steinfillers.com
ferment at flash.net



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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 13:11:32 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: sulphate

AlK (BrewInfo <<brewinfo at xnet.com>), catching up on old issues,
writes:


>Jeff writes:

>>Water - Low sulfate water is important for a clean bitterness.  If
you need

>>to add Ca++, use CaCl2, not gypsum (CaSO4), which can give a
lingering

>>harshness to the bitterness.

>

>I don't feel it is correct to say gypsum (sulphate (SO4), actually)
adds

>harshness.


This was while back, but I'm pretty sure I the context was CAPs and
other pale lagers, especially with noble hops.  While I can'imagine
using 1/2 c. gypsum for 15 gallons, I agree that with everything else
working properly, high sulfate in PAs and bitters is indeed nice.


Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu

"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.



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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:57:08 -0400
From: "G. Bowden Wise" <wiseb at acm.org>
Subject: Cats Meow Recipes?

Hey I cannot find the cats meow pages anymore?  Where did
they go?  

Bowden
wiseb at acm.org


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Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 17:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Re: Cats Meow Recipes

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

 Bowden writes...

> Hey I cannot find the cats meow pages anymore?  Where did
> they go?  

http://brewery.org is where the Cat's Meow resides. Please update your
bookmarks! 

See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:32:15 -0700
From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
Subject: Finding Hallertau Hallertau hops

    I'm trying to find a homebrew mail order or web business that has
Hallertau Hallertau Hops. About half pound amount. Any suggestions
would be appreciated.

Thank you         Mike Rose         mrose at ucr.campuscw.net




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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:56:38 -0700
From: Tyce Heldenbrand <Tyce at photon.com>
Subject: 1st Round Nationals Judging - California Region

Call for Judges!!!  Judges and stewards are needed for the 1st Round
Nationals in Apple Valley, CA (Near Victorville).  Actually, the judging
will take place in Victorville, at the San Bernadino Fairgrounds.  The
judging will be Saturday, April 24th and Sunday, April 25th.

There will be lots of fun events for everyone envolved in the competition.
There will be a party Saturday night that will include food, beer, a silent
auction, and well, more beer.

I send this call for judges in a moderate state of urgency, as the number of
judges that have signed up so far is FAR less than expected with 2 weeks
until the judging.

Here are the contacts to call/email for signing yourself up.  Remember, we
need both judges and stewards.

Karolyn Ballard
Ray Ballard
13549 Sylmar Ave.
Moreno Valley, CA  92553
(909)653-1841
beerfish at empirenet.com

Thanks!  And sign up!
Tyce Heldenbrand



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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:06:20 -0600
From: David Elm <delm at cadvision.com>
Subject: Murphy Brewery ownership

I found it at the following URL that Heineken has owned Murphy Brewery since
1983.

http://www.heinekencorp.nl/heineken/intermain.nsf/FrameLoader?ReadForm&Expan
dMain=45D1049AB64EB0DC4125674A00437A5B&FrameView=45D1049AB64EB0DC4125674A004
37A5B
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Elm  delm at cadvision.com  (403)932-1626 888-660-6035 fax:(403)932-7405
   Box 7, Site 16, RR 2, Glendale Rd., Cochrane, Alberta, T0L 0W0, Canada



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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 11:31:41 -0700
From: "Mark W. Wilson" <mwilson at ichips.intel.com>
Subject: mash time correction.


Don't you hate when you adamantly post something to HBD, go home, look at
your brew log, and realized you goofed?

Three years ago I switched from 1-1.5 hour sach. rests to 25-30 minutes
rests, not 15 minutes.  Sorry for any confusion.  I'm still eager to brew
and taste 15, 30 and 90 minute versions of the same beer.

Also, anyone know typical times for commercial brewery sach. rests?  

 -Mark Wilson




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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 19:02:53 -0500
From: Rick Gontarek <RGontare at bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Corny kegs & Beermeister/ WhiteLabs Burton Ale yeast

Hi All,

I just made the plunge and stepped-up my hobby several notches by
purchasing a corny keg set-up. I love it! My first kegged batch was a
CAP, and boy, was it good. I say "was" because it is no longer with us.

Anyway, I just cranked-up the hobby a few more notches by buying from my
cousin a used (but nice) Beermeister. It's a nice refrigerator with a
single tap-head that'll hold at least three corny kegs and still have
some space for the CO2 tank and a sixpack. It came with lines for a
standard half-barrel type of keg, and I obviously want to be able to use
my cornies in there. I was wondering if anyone out there has a similar
set-up and can make any suggestions for the simplest way to hook-up the
cornies. The line that is in there is 3/16" ID x 7/16" OD, and the
tubing that came with my corny set-up is 1/4" ID. Can I buy a barbed
adapter to attach the 3/16" line to the ball valve on the corny? Any
suggestions here would be appreciated.

**

For my second kegged batch, a few weeks ago I brewed an all-grain
British Bitter using White Labs Burton Ale Yeast. I've used their
British Ale yeast before and really liked the results, but this was the
first time I used their Burton Ale yeast. The primary ferment was
extremely vigorous (a lot of stuff came out of the neck of the carboy),
and about ten days ago I transferred the beer (1.010) to the secondary.
The beer is still quite cloudy with yeast in suspension. Has anyone used
this yeast before? The beer is in my basement (with an avg temp of ~60
degrees), and it shows no signs of wanting to clarify. Normally I have
no trouble with yeast settling out to give a nice clear beer, but I am
kinda perplexed with this yeast. Should I use gelatin to clarify it?

Many thanks for any advice,

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster
The Major Groove Picobrewery
Trappe, PA



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Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:44:57 -0400
From: Jim Wallace <jwallace at crocker.com>
Subject: Re: one tier rims

>Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1999 08:52:31 +0000
>From: dolmans at mail.tss.net
>Subject: Re: one tier rims
>	My greatest concern is the pump between the mash/lauter tun and the 
>boil kettle.  Since I sparge at a trickle I worry about the pump 
>being able to move very small quantities for an hour or slightly 
>longer.  It seems that most pumps require a several gallon per minute 
>flow rate in order to not cavitate or to burn themselves out.  I have 
>considered the possibility of slowing the flow rate down behind the 
>pump but that seems self defeating as it would hold the hot wort but 
>the flow rate through the grain bed would be too fast to really make 
>any extraction happen.  Any thoughts on this?  Or is it the case that 
>once the pump is primed and the outlet behind it throttled down that 
>the normal extraction and sparge flow rate will be established 
>particularly if I recirculate the first 2 gallons of wort?  
 .................

a rather simple solution here would be to let the mash drain into a grant,
then use the pump to pick this up and either recirc or pump to kettle. by
turning pump on and off as the grant fills you can move the wort without
taxing the pump. some people using this method have even installed float
valves in the grant to automate it. you still would probably throttle the
puymp back but not to the trickle you thought and it would only be running
for small bits of time. doing this would als avoid the suction on the grain
bed that might develop if you attached your pump directly to the grain bed.
___________________________________________
    JIM WALLACE ... jwallace at crocker.com
      http://www.crocker.com/~jwallace  
___________________________________________


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---