---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  WARNING!  extremely rude. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Exploding blimps and imploding kegs ("George De Piro")
  On widgets ..... ("Bill Tobler")
  Sanitizing Question (John Adsit)
  Cold-conditioning Question (Ted McIrvine)
  Sorry Louis, (Dave Burley)
  Brewing good, Science bad? (ThomasM923)
  correction for "Hallertau Hops" (BreslerHS)
  How much heat ("Scott Church")
  Break vs pH/hops/haze/rates of enzyme activity ("Stephen Alexander")
  wyeast for fruit beer ("Anthony Brown")
  oxygenating yeast starters (Adam Holmes)
  Soft water & soil structure (Steve Lacey)
  Lactobaccilius ("I_build")
  7th ANNUAL DOMINION CUP (Sajarrett)
  The Jethro Gump Report ("Rob Moline")
  Assistance required! (Bob Sheck)
  Boston, Mass. (andrew.ryan-smith)
  Fw: THE ELUSIVE DIACETYL ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Ebullometry Revisited ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Melted nylon removal help (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Rice CAP?? (Scott Abene)
  O2 caps (Jeremy Bergsman)
  orroz in my thinking (Dave Sapsis)
  More cooking - corned beef (Tim Anderson)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at
http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier!
Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99.  Details on the HBD Competition
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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:19:50 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <irv at wireworks.se>
Subject: WARNING!  extremely rude.

Phil Yates makes what I think are some very germane comments, and talks
about his own brewing:

>   This result has been achieved without the intense scientific input
> that Dr Pivo and Dave Burley seem to think is necessary.

and....

>  The technical and scientific knowledge of Dr Pivo and
> Dave Burley would seem beyond the scope of a lot of home brewers (myself
> included)


Regarding myself, I've actually forgotten far more about the technical
aspects of brewing than I presently retain in my head. Furthermore I
don't care much about it either.  If I have given these same impressions
to anyone else, then I have failed miserably at what I am trying to do.

Interested in brewing, I originally absorbed every single scrap of
brewing information that I came over.  Having worked in "the business",
it was pretty natural for me to think of beer in chemical terms. I
believed it, too.  After years of tramping around different traditional
breweries (where they had the beer I liked best) and fiddling around
with the process myself, I've come to realize that the bulk of this more
advanced information for the homebrewer, is derived from the modern
(principally American) brewing industry, and not only isn't always
relevant, but sometimes leads me 180 degrees from the taste direction I
want to head.

I post here occasionally, when I think I've got some alternative
experiences to the  "homebrewing book examples" that get repeated over
and over again here, until they become "truths" by sheer repetition.

When I post, I try and stear away from the biochemical terms that I
don't think are necessary for understanding the concept, and try and
keep the explanation of what I've found out is important things to look
at when making beer, in every- day language.

EVERY time I do this (and it is not often), someone jumps up with the
same tired "models" of explanation that have been floating around, laces
it with a few "buzz" words so that it sound authoratative, uses some
flawed circular logic to support their (already well known) point and
ENTIRELY miss the whole point of what I was trying to throw out.

These persons are predictably the same three: Al Korzonas (though I must
admit, Al must have gone through some stage of maturation that he is not
telling us about- he has been incredibly reasonable of late), George
DePiro, and Dave Burley.

If the topic seems a bit technical, I often pull it to the side, at
least where Al Korzona is concerned, as I get the impression that he
genuinely wants to know.  These other two guys are like a puppy with a
slipper in their mouth, that they absolutely will not let go of, and
they consider their literature as holy texts that should not be
questioned.

I truly do love "scientific principles", and by that I mean seeing
exactly what effects what. This rote recitation is not science,
however.  This is "literature search", and is what God made librarians
and graduate students for ;-).

The most amazing thing is that it is a library of about five books:

(Imagine the following scene, at the Ivory Tower of the University of
HBD, the wizened old professor talking to his graduate student.)

(curtain opens)

Professor: "I'm doing an article, better do a literature search on the
word "diacetyl" '.

Student:  "Should I look in DeClerck, Miller, or Fix?"

Professor:  "Better look in all three.  I'm on to something BIG!"


Does this scene seem amusing to anyone else?

If so, please donate a penney to the "lets teach Dave and George that
deductive reasoning is not a process involving the ego" campaign.

I generally don't respond when one of these lads passes down their
edicts in response to what I've written, and just figure folks can
figure out on their own what they care to believe (though there's lots
to wade through). What really sent me over the top, was when Dave talked
about an "acceptable level" of a chemical in lagers.  I happen to KNOW
that the most famous lager of them all, has 6 times Dave's "acceptable
level".  And how would I know that?  Because I got the number from the
guy who did the assay at the brewery.  And Dave also has some numbers. 
Written down by a guy who wrote a book on homebrewing, who copied it
from a sheet of paper, which was in turn copied from another.  I can
gaurantee you one thing.... that guy was not measuring it at the
brewery.

Well then "where" would Dave had gotten his "acceptable level" that he
reccommends all the world to follow?

It said so in his "book".

Isn't that just a tiny bit tragic.

I also tried to hint at the socio-economic reasons why these numbers
might be "under reported". You don't "admit" you're producing diacetyls,
at least not to an investor that is looking at export markets. They do
cause storage worries, at least for professional brewers, even if they
don't for George de Piro.

That Dave himself could not percieve this taste when he was in Plzen,
can have two possible explanations... If he was there prior to '92, or
after '92 got to drink from the original lagering tanks, I can well
understand how individual tastes got lost in that incredibly complex
brew that keeps jumping around on your tongue and changing complexion
and tone every second.  If he was there post '92, and drank in the big
beer hall at the brewery, that's the same filtered pasteurized stuff
that goes in the bottle, and could he not percieve it there, then he is
deficient when it comes to this particular perceptive parameter.  The
diacetyl levels themselves, by measurement, have ALWAYS been high.

And here I am again, getting wound into a technical discussion (will I
never learn).

What I guess inspired me to reply a last time on this topic, is that as
I scan the odd HBD, I notice the lack of some of the old posters that
actually had some new information to present.  I wondered where they had
gone.  As I went "off the edge" in replying to Dave Burley, I found out
where they are.  When I started getting private email coming in I found
out.  They're still out there lurking.... they just don't post anymore
because they don't want to debate every point with "the librarians".

Yep, they're "keeping them away in droves".

me too.

>  To this end I would
> like to say that Charlie Papazian provides an attitude to beer making which
> is quite refreshing!

I couldn't agree with you more.  By the time I read Charley, I'm afraid
he didn't have much new for me, but I still thought it was a bloody good
read that I enjoyed immensely, because he seemed to have the same
attitude as I.... "This is bloody good fun, great to share the results
with friends, and you can figure out better and better ways to do things
as you go along".

I am sorry if this is considered offensive to the individuals I have
named, or others think it impolite or innappropriate that I have done
thus, but considering the contents of my private email, I would say at
least it represents a "democratic" opinion, and I am willing to be the
public "bad guy", for the ones that are shamed or bored into silence. 
This in contrast to the "GIGABYTES" worth of opinions that have been
poured out by a few individuals.

Braam Greyling wrote while commenting on my unbridled rudeness:

> It seems like you have forgotten that this is a DISCUSSION forum. 
> Where we SHARE ideas.

I wish that were true.  Unfortunately a great deal of it is practicing
the habits of Onan.  And should the warnings we heard as children about
the consequences of that particular habit be true, then there are folks
out there who have lost there sight a LONG time ago.

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 99 08:14:57 PDT
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Exploding blimps and imploding kegs

Hi all,

In the last HBD, some people responded to Ron LaBorde's question
about water evaporating, citing hydrogen as the culprit in the
Hindenburg disaster.

Back in the May 1997 Air and Space Smithsonian magazine, there
was a nice story about how hydrogen was not the problem.  It was
the extremely flammable doped fabric that covered the airship.

If you care, check out
http://www.ttcorp.com/nha/advocate/ad22zepp.htm
for more info.  The original Air and Space article isn't
on-line, but this site summarizes it nicely.
- --------------------------------------------
Some people have asked how a Corny keg can implode,
because the popettes and lid should leak if there is
a vacuum.

"My kegs seal better than your kegs, nah nah nah nah"

Sorry.

Some of my kegs do seal quite nicely, while others spray
me with beer when I remove the tap line to clean them.  If
you fill a keg with hot water and it seals well, it can implode
upon cooling.

At the very least, you should pressurize the keg to prevent
the unwanted air from getting sucked in!  Kind of defeats
the purpose of all that work purging the air out of the keg
if you let it get sucked in.

While I'm talking about stupid brewer tricks, here's a
good one to avoid:

Never put caustic into a sealed tank that contains a
carbon dioxide (CO2) atmosphere.  The caustic *will*
(not "can," but "will") react with the gaseous CO2 to
form solid sodium carbonate.  "Big deal" you may say.
It is when you consider that solids take up much less
space than gasses.

Yes, you can implode a rather expensive fermentor
with this trick; the vacuum relief valve won't allow
enough flow to prevent disaster.  No, I have not
done this!

Have fun!

George de Piro  (Nyack, NY)

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
"Brooklyn's Best Homebrew Club"
http://hbd.org/mbas


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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:10:57 -0500
From: "Bill Tobler" <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: On widgets .....

I was served a can of Abbot Ale the other day at a friends, Brewed by Greene
King in England. The beer was ok.  It seems that the widget has been
re-invented.  Inside the can was a "Floating widget to give you pub draught
ale as it is served by the hand pump in England".. as it says on the can. It
looks like a small ping-pong ball.  New Technology?  My friend has said that
he has seen this in other beers, to improve the head or something. I don't
usually spend the money on high $ beers.  Are we going to start putting
ping-pong balls in our beers now?  (My kegs usually have all the foam you
can stand!!)  Anyone know how this works?  

To Better Brewing
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, Tx.

                


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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:12:57 -0600
From: John Adsit <jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us>
Subject: Sanitizing Question

Dear Folks,

Several recent posts have spoken about how soon Iodophor is lost as it
sits.  I assume that the same must be true about other sanitizers,
although at differing rates.

I am reminded of other posts in the past that advocate a sanitation
practice of leaving a sanitizing solution in the carboy (or bottles or
whatever) for weeks at a time, until the next batch is brewed or
bottled.  In light of the above, what would be the advantage of that?
Aren't you essentially just leaving it filled with water?  In fact,
wouldn't it be a disadvantage, since water at room temperature is a
better environment for bacteria than air?

In other words, after a few weeks soak in what used to be a sanitizing
solution, won't it be necessary to sanitize before using it again
anyway?  If so, wouldn't it make more sense to just wait until you are
ready to use it to sanitize?

- --
John Adsit
Jefferson County Public Schools
Golden, Colorado
jadsit at jeffco.k12.co.us




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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:00:23 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Cold-conditioning Question

I recently made a British bitter and put the secondary carboy in the
refrigerator around 30 degrees for three or four days.  There were some
ice crystals that were left behind when I racked it to the keg.  When I
dispense it at cellar temperature (around 55-60 degrees) the beer has a
beautiful clarity.  If I dispense it colder, it has chill haze.

How long does one have to cold-condition to eliminate chill haze?  What
am I doing wrong?

Cheers
Ted


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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 19:02:42 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sorry Louis,

Brewsters:

Well, Brewsters, the vagaries of the internet have
befuddled me again. What I interpreted as Louis
Bonham's sinister silence and non-response to
my requests to get the ball rolling on the evaluation
of Clinitest he promised many months ago, was
due to the fact that Louis had changed his e-mail
address. He told me he notified us in the HBD,
which I somehow missed. There was an additonal
quirk in  that I had never received a "bad address"
from his old server whenever I sent him e-mail.
I presumed he was receiving my messages and
being non-responsive to my requests for a
schedule of events. 


Sorry, Louis, I  hope you understand my
frustration, that nothing tangible has been done
so far in all these months on evaluating Clinitest,
led me to assume incorrectly. I apologize for
my misinterpretation of what I perceived to
be an intentional act on your part.

The good side of it is that Louis is once again
actively involved in developing the protocol
with AlK and I. We will need some help in 

performing some analyses and Louis will
be asking for some volunteers.

I will be outatown for a week or so, so * I *am not
ignoring your e-mails or comments.  {8^).  I will 

catch up when I get back.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley

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Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:26:44 EDT
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Brewing good, Science bad?

Phil Yates claims:

"Home Brewing is supposed to be fun."

Alan McKay states:

"No offense intended or anything.  If that's what you're into 
(the science of brewing) then great for you. But it sure isn't my idea of 
"fun"."

I am not one of the very scientifically enabled, but I don't have a problem 
with deep brewing science being discussed here. First of all, there is room 
for it, second, we can sometimes (albeit on the third or fourth read) learn 
something from these guys. Third, there's a personal quality control button 
on your keyboard called... well, you know.

The folks that get serious about brewing science do it because they are 
bringing an important part of their life into their hobby. Sounds like fun to 
me.

Yes, Phil, our beloved hobby is supposed to be fun. However, for some folks 
science just happens to be included in that big carboy o' fun we call home 
brewing.

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ



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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:55:41 EDT
From: BreslerHS at aol.com
Subject: correction for "Hallertau Hops"

I wrote:
The first word in the hop name tells where it was grown; the second is the 
variety.  So, it's no suprise that Hallertau Tradition is very different from 
Hallertau Northern Brewer.  They are two different varieties that both happen 
to be grown in Hallertau region.  

This is not quite right.  The hop commonly called Hallertau Tradition is a 
sub-variety of Hallertauer, and if grown in Hallertau would be properly named 
Hallertau Hallertauer Tradition.  Like Hallertauer Mittelfruh the name is 
frequently shortened.  Sorry if my previous posting created any confusion.  

Good luck and good brewing,
Herb
Bexley, Ohio




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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:41:10 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: How much heat

Does anyone know a "formula" for how much heat (BTU's) is needed to bring
"X" amount of water to a boil in "X" amount of time.  I would like to find
out what it would take to use a 55 gal steel drum as a Boil Kettle/Mash Tun.

Any Input would be most welcome!

Thanks
Scott





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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:16:43 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Break vs pH/hops/haze/rates of enzyme activity

AlK writes ..

>I've also read where some authors have said that you get a "rough"
>bitterness from a high-pH boil, but that could simply be that they
>are extracting more polyphenols and calling that astringency 
"roughness"

Possible Al, but I suspect they are referring to the dramatic increase 
in solubility of the hop beta-acids (see lupulone solubility vs pH M&BS 
pp 479) starting around pH 5.8 or so.  The beta-acids also isomerize 
into unstable products which are coarsely bitter.
- --
Al's comments to Matt who read a post of mine regarding the Fix mash 
schedule were on the mark too.  Not only is a mash thickness of 2qt/lb 
not too thin, but there is pretty good evidence that mashes as thick as 
1.5qt/lb are actually too thick. The unavailability of water (trapped by 
the starch) slows amylolysis.
 .--
How to solve Cap haze ?  Gillian Grafton of the UK HB web sight used to 
have a list of perhaps 30 methods of controlling haze - everything short 
of dancing naked 'round the fermentor under a full moon (a traditional 
British method) was listed.  Protein haze occurs as proteins, glued 
together by polyphenol bonds form "hazoids" which become large enough 
and prevalent enough  to cause visual turbidity, but still small enough 
to stay in solution.  Reducing the polyphenols as Al suggests removes 
some of the glue. Increasing the proteolysis makes the proteins smaller 
on average - which reduces the size of the hazoids enough to prevent 
turbidity.  Oddly INCREASING the amount of polyphenols present, 
increases the amount of glue and causes the excessively large hazoids to 
drop to the bottom of the tank.  IMO - reducing the polyphenols enough 
to prevent haze (assuming you are already practicing good lautering 
technique and aren't willing to give up hops)  is more difficult than 
reducing the large proteins - either by a short [low temp 137F-ish] 
protein rest or by a longer boil.  The boil selectively coagulates 
larger proteins and adding 30' to the boil is often simple way to reduce 
potential haze.

I'm personally reluctant to use fining agents and always prefer to try 
modifying procedures as a first resort, but PVPP/Polyclar and to a 
lesser extent gelatin will remove polyphenols nicely but must be used 
before the haze forms - the earlier the better.  Irish Moss has it's 
advocates as well.

I should note that my recent CAP, second ever, 1st w/ grits is still a 
little murky at 6 weeks. I need to adjust my CAP methods too.
- --
About carboy fermentors being less sanitary because the author has 
filthy messy blow-off problems [with his fermentor I mean]. His 
alternative to use a CLOSED plastic bucket which he cleans with a 
"non-abrasive scrubber".

Get rid of blowoff tubes and conduct primaries in a vessel big enough to 
handle the head space - whether a 7gal acid carboys or a pair of 5G 
carboys.  Buckets aren't a real solution since 5G of wort in a 5G pail 
is just as messy as in a 5G carboy.

"Non-abrasive scubbers" do exist (like 'Rhino' scrubbers) altho they not 
very common and something of a contradiction in terms. The common 3M 
green scrubbers will create scratches at least 7 microns wide (just 
tested one on a microscope slide) which is a great place for bacteria 
!!!  *NEVER* use these scrubbers in a fermentor -  plastic, glass or 
steel.  0.5u surface roughness is sort of an upper bound.

Anyone getting rid of those troublesome carboys can send 'em to me ;^)

Steve







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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:16:56 -0500
From: "Anthony Brown" <brown32 at ecol.net>
Subject: wyeast for fruit beer

Hey, anyone have any ideas as to the best wyeast to use when brewing a
fruit beer?  I am using wheat extract but reluctant to use a true wheat
wyeast wondering if it woud overpower the fruit with its bannana/clove
taste.  I really want the fruit flavor to shine through.  Any ideas?  I may
even try an Irish ale wyeast since it is supposed to have more fruitiness
to it.



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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:42:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: Adam Holmes <aaholmes at lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Subject: oxygenating yeast starters

I just got an oxygenation system from Brewer's Resource.  I plan to
oxygenate 5 gallons of cooled wort for 30-60 seconds per their
instructions (to achieve 8mg/ml O2 per their experiments).  

Should I keep the O2 on longer to achieve higher levels of dissolved O2?

I will also oxygenate my yeast starters (500 mL and 2 L). How long should
I turn on the oxygen for these smaller volumes?  (At $8-$10 per bottle of
oxygen I don't want to use more oxygen than necessary)  

I wish I learned about this last year.  I worked in a lab and used DO
meters everyday.  I would have been posting data instead of asking
questions

Thanks,
Adam Holmes
Cell and Molecular Biology 
CSU
Fort Collins, CO
aaholmes at lamar.colostate.edu
 



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:30:39 +1000
From: Steve Lacey <stevel at sf.nsw.gov.au>
Subject: Soft water & soil structure

In relation to sanitation and septic tanks, Mike Swintosky wrote:
"I have "heard" that soft water in general can, in the long run, negatively
impact the soil structure in a way that reduces the percolation rate.  Do we
have any experts out there that can lend credence to or negate this?"

This is getting a bit esoteric, but when sodium replaces calcium on the clay
exchange complex, the clay particles repel one another (disperse) rather
than attract one another (flocculate). This in turn causes soil aggregates
(i.e structure) to break down ultimately reducing water infiltration rates.
This is common mechanism for the failure of septic tank adsorption trenches
due to the high sodium content of domestic cleaners. It is most
spectacularly associated with soils that naturally have high ESP
(exchangeable sodium percentage) but over time most soils would succumb if
the doses of sodium were high enough and frequent enough. I suppose that
bleach used for sanitising home brew equipment could contribute, but it is a
load-based consideration. Doing the daily laundry is far more likely to do
more damage.

Steve Lacey


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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:59:11 -0500
From: "I_build" <I_build at email.msn.com>
Subject: Lactobaccilius

I have just started brewing again, (mini-batches) as I am very often out =
of town on a construction project. I finally figured out that in my =
case, less is better. My problem is that I think I may have encountered =
my first infection since that ropey thing a long time ago. I discovered =
it while transferring to secondry. The smell seems to me VERY banana =
like but musky and tastes sour. However, my I have just began to acquire =
taste and smell recognition skills and may not have it nailed. I am =
using Cascade in an American Pale Ale. I rushed out and bought some =
raspberries. hmmm. My question is, after reading about sour mashing, I =
am wondering if the infection occurred after boiling, am I wasting my =
time? Or should I just plan on drinking fast?

First time poster-Thanks

Mike Davis, The Gypsy Brewer

Currently In Denton, Texas






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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:55:44 EDT
From: Sajarrett at aol.com
Subject: 7th ANNUAL DOMINION CUP

The James River Homebrewers are sponsoring the
7th Annual Dominion Cup Homebrew Competition on May 22, 1999, in Richmond, 
VA.  Entries are now being accepted through May 15, 1999.  

You may visit our website at www.websvirginia.com/jrhomebrew for full details 
and to register your entries.  Our mission is to provide each entry with 
constructive feedback from our pool of BJCP judges.

Judging will be conducted adjacent to the River City Beer Festival site in 
the Farmer's Market, with the winners being announced on stage that evening.  
Come join us in a toast to the winners and spend a most pleasurable day in 
the Bottom.  

We still have openings for a couple more BJCP program judges.  If you are 
interested, email me with a phone number and snail mail address so that I can 
confirm your registration.

                                      Steve Jarrett 
 



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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 23:50:29 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: The Jethro Gump Report

			The Jethro Gump Report

>From: WayneM38 at aol.com
>Subject: Siebel
>Are your going to establish an informal question format for questions to be
>answered by the Siebels Staff?
	No, I don't think so.......
	Perhaps more than anyone, I do not want to overburden the Siebel staff, but
neither do I wish to channel the Q & A.  I have a feeling that many
questions will be able to be bundled by Siebel, and perhaps there will be
many questions that they decide not to answer, in favour of zero'ing in on a
few subjects that they deem appropriate.
	I just think that  at  this point, it would be best if we leave it up to them
to handle things their way. I'm sure thay will let us know if it becomes too
burdensome.
	....they know their business better than I .....

>From: JPullum127 at aol.com
>Subject: sanitizers
	The real answer lies in obtaining an Iodophor Test Kit from the
manufacturer of the sanitizer. Breweries are generally able to obtain one
free of charge from their suppliers, so I can't give any idea of what they
cost. Call the manufacturer.

>From: mike rose <mrose at ucr.campuscw.net>
>Subject: Sanitizing with lactic acid
<SNIP> My goal is to try and dry hop with the blossoms.
>This poses hugh sanitation problems.
	What I can't imagine is that these blossoms should behave in any different
manner than dry hops do in the similar situation. Unless someone else can
point out some detail I am missing, I would recommend that you just toss
them into your secondary, and then rack the beer onto them.
	The relatively low ph and high alcohol levels, respectively, will do more
than any addition of lactic acid could.....IMHO....

Mike and Al K.
Mike writes:
>>I use a caustic to soak away beerstone (Keg Clean),  then use a
non->>chlorox
>>sanitizer.
>Is that right?  I thought that caustic was inherently alkaline and so is
>beerstone (mostly calcium oxalate).  I thought that you needed acid to
>remove beerstone, not alkaline...
	Acid washes are used in commercial practice to clean stone residues.....
	In my preferred chemical cleaning regime, I rely on 5 Star's Acid 5...a
phosphoric/nitric acid blend...  http://www.fivestaraf.com

Mash Times.....
	Again, just my preferred technique.........I mash in, go get a cup of
coffee....then begin recirc within 5-15/60.....recirc lasting from 40-60/60,
as a rule....
	All I know is that  at  my last brewing gig...we were achieving 89%
efficiency..........with this regime....and saving lots of time.....
	YMMV......

Big Brew 99 WebSite.....
	Al Korzonas sez...
>Say... while I'm at it, can someone volunteer to set up a way for us
>in the field to upload .gif's to the AHA website during the Big Brew?
>Last year we had some interesting conversations while we all brewed
>together.  It would be even better if the sites could send in photos.
>It would be more convenient than if we put them on our websites and
>posted links to them, right?
	I am aware of certain attempts to put together a Chat Line for the Big Brew
'99. To my knowledge, no firm outcome has been concluded.
	Scott Braker-Abene has graciously responded in the affirmative, when I
asked if his site might be utilized for Big Brew. For those of you unaware
of this site, I would invite you to peruse
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/     .....on the 1st of
May....to follow the action...
	It's the only tried, tested and proven such site, and would be best able to
cope with the demands of over 100 sites communicating with each other.
	Certainly, on a day to day basis, this site is not for everyone, but then
neither is the HBD.....but it is the original, 24 hr a day, international,
live chat site for brewing. For those that do journey there, be prepared for
much the same environment you might find in your local pub, worts and all.
For my money, it's good value, and the folks that reside there are generous
with their intent to aid brewers...in both matters of brewing, and matters
of a more personal nature....
	And on the day of the event, it's track record of past longevity and
reliability demonstrate it as a natural choice.
	Brian, Paul? Any thoughts?

Beer Institute Estimates US Beer Industry...
	BI and Steve Barsby Associates estimate the US Beer Industry economic
impact  at  USD 187,078,200,000.
	US brewers for 97/98 list 1,698, employing 39,500 workers, and 2,729
wholesalers, employing 92,900. Retailers comprise 546,700, employing
711,100.
	The industry paid USD 1,443,300,000 in state excise taxes, USD
4,505,200,000 in sales taxes, etc. Fed taxes of USD 3,445,800,000 and USD
4,306,400,000 in payroll and income taxes.
	Wow! what a business! To me, the point is clear, however. 1700 brewers,
with 40k men and women, provide a product that aids in employing over
800,000 and we generate nearly 200 BILLION in benefits to our country!
	Wow! What a business!
SOURCE: Modern Brewery Age, Weekly Edition, 3.39.99...subscriptions, 85 USD,
(203) 853-6015, # 136, Circulation Manager, Art Heilman.
http://www.breweryage.com

WOI Radio Beer Talk...
	The semi-annual WOI radio, 640 AM, an NPR station, Beer Talk Show will
occur on April 22, from 10-11 am, cst......
	Midwestern brewers are invited to listen and participate....
	Call in on 1-800-262-0640.

Ames Brewers' League...
	The Ames Brewers' League was founded on the 13th of April, 1999. It's
members ratified the constitution, one on loan from the North Florida
Brewers' League. (Thanks!)
	The next meeting will be on the second Tuesday of the month, the 11th of
May,  at  Lucullan's, 400 Main Street, Ames, Iowa, when officers will be
elected. The ABL will seek sanction as an AHA club.
	Contact Rob Moline  at   brewer at isunet.net

Non-Standard Disclaimer...
	(this might be another 'rash of crap'..)
Cheers!
Jethro Gump

Rob Moline
brewer at isunet.net
Lallemand Web Site
jethro at isunet.net

"The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:00:02 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Assistance required!

Crisis alert! Can anyone help us get BEER OUT?


- ------------
Help!  We have a beer crisis.  

I brought 2 kegs of Bitburger Pils back with me from Germany (hey, I'm
allowed two pieces of carry-on luggage on the jet!!) which seemed like a
great idea at the time.  You know, being a beer hero with all the guys back
home and all that stuff. 

But anyway, for all those that didn't see this coming already, the taps
aren't the same as here in the USA.  Of course they aren't.  We can have a
DIN for jet fuel connectors worldwide, but not for beer.  Figures.  Anyway,
I was more concerned about getting the transatlantic flight clearance and
doing the preflight, instead of paying the necessary and critical attention
needed to the kegs.  So I'm guilty of being a dufus.  But hey, you quit
drinking for 12 hours before flying (you know, 12 hours bottle-to-throttle)
and see how coherent you are.

So, here is the problem.  100 litres of beer in the fridge, and no way to
get at it.  Rear Buccaneer has said he has a Swiss Army knife that could
take care of it, which is no surprise.  Problem is, once he has his arms
around a keg, you can't pry him off of it with the jaws-of-life. And Great
Balls of Fire has volunteered the tap in his house (1500 sq ft, with wall to
wall beer plumbing), but that's useless because he's on the wrong coast.

Does anyone out there know where I can get the connectors to tap these kegs
(besides Germany, thank you)?  Borrow or buy. We have the CO2, faucet, and
beer steins poised and waiting.  Any help is appreciated.  Thanks.

Cheers,
Red Bare One (RBO)

Email: onon at internetcds.com
- -----------
Bob Sheck

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see
us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------
//If you really support our troops, keep them out of KOSOVO!//
I get my news from http://www.b92.net/ 
Where's "Country Joe and the Fish" when we need them?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:22:33 +0100
From: andrew.ryan-smith at ind.alstom.com
Subject: Boston, Mass.



Good morning all,

My family and I will be in Boston, Mass. from the 28 April to 3 May.  Are there
any family oriented (ie things for them to do whilst I drink) beer-happenings
going on then?

Cheers

Rhyno




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:39:23 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Fw: THE ELUSIVE DIACETYL


- -----Original Message-----
From: Phil & Jill Yates <yates at infoflex.com.au>
To: post@hbd.org <post@hbd.org>
Date: Monday, April 19, 1999 10:26 PM
Subject: THE ELUSIVE DIACETYL


My very first post in this new found forum didn't go down so well with some
readers as I dared to suggest that getting too high tech was not necessarily
the answer to homebrew bliss. I had assumed that we were all enjoying our
hobby but apparently this is not the case. Never mind, for those of you who
do I suggest you keep on making great beer and let the rest of this stuff
fly right over your head! It ain't going to make you any happier and
probably won't make your beer any better. Okay, on to diacetyl.
Anyone who has read enough about the subject would surely agree that it is a
most elusive flavour compound. Worse still, the argument continues as to
whether it is a good thing or a bad thing to have in your beer. Even worse
again is that no one is too certain as to just how it tastes, is it honey or
is it a butter type flavour? The very first lager I ever made was done with
somewhat limited temperature control and in those days I was still bottling.
That very first lager had a distinctive buttery flavour which I later
learned was diacetyl. The last half of that bottled batch progressively lost
it's diacetyl character as time went on ( not much time, the beer was very
popular, diacetyl or no diacetyl)! I've never produced a beer with it since.
For that matter I've never tried. Personally I liked it but the beer without
it was also great. To this day I can not tell you why it appeared in that
particular brew. Dr Pivo says he experienced it off the coast of N.S.W. Or
was it running around the station in the ute? I can't quite recall what he
mentioned. The point is it is certainly very elusive and if you get it there
is no guarantee it will hang around for long. Similarly if you don't get it
there is no certainty it won't develop.
For those who still aren't sure if they have ever noticed it "on the nose"
or via the taste buds, rest assured there are more scientific ways of
detecting it. Colorimetrics is one method but probably gas chromatography is
more often used. Measuring free diacetyl is one thing but it is also
important to measure it's immediate precursor, acetolactate.
So what does this all mean to the home brewer? Not much in my opinion. I
still refer to my first paragraph.
For those that are still chasing this elusive beast. Let me at least say
that a friend of mine who knows far more than me about chemical matters is
working on producing "Diacetyl in a Bottle". Something you can simply pour
into your brew if you feel the need. I'm skeptical but he assures me he is
close to a result.
Hope I haven't upset you all this time.
Cheers, Phil Yates.



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:40:04 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Ebullometry Revisited




From: Philip J Wilcox at CMS on 04/19/99 08:40 AM

Dear Siebel and HBDers,

In wine analysis ebullometers usually come with a correction table for
wines with high extract (1). Or in brewing terms high terminal gravity.
Actually, extract in this context is measuring Total Disolved Solids.
(Residual sugars, dextrins, tannins, acids, ect.) The corrections used is
for every 1% extract (*P)you should reduce the ebullometrically determined
alcohol level by 0.05%.  A published table in (1 & 2) relates the gravity
(*P) of the wine with the measured alcohol level to get the % extract.
Knowing the  % extract and applying the proper correction you get a more
accurate measurement of alcohol % abv.

Can this method be applied to beer analysis?
And if so, how accurately?

I feel that compared with wines, the differences in beer's lower alcohol
levels and higher amounts of residual extract in --like sweet stouts,
porters and doppel bocks--might produce a significant amount of error. At a
minimum they are off the published charts

Is anyone aware of such a corrections calibrated for beer?
Or, has any research been done in this area?

What say ye????


(1)Wine and Must Analysis by M.A. Amerine & C.S. Ough, John Wile and sons,
1974.  The table with the nomograph for extract as a function of alcohol
and starting Brix also occurs in several texts.  The most recent source is:
(2) Principles and Practices of Winemaking by Roger B. Boulton et al,
Chapman and Hall, 1996.


Phil Wilcox &
Phil DeVore




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:03:38 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Melted nylon removal help

Bill Macher points out:
>it take a lot longer to boil a pot empty than it does to
>get it boiling in the first place.

But it still will boil dry, as I rediscovered last week while sanitizing a
nylon msh hop bag (for dry hopping) in a covered stainless steel pan of
shallow boiling water.  I think I was reading HBD with more than the usual
rapt attention, and the first hint I had of trouble was a burning smell.
Most of the bag had melted and some had charred.  I pulled off what I could
but my favorite spaghetti pot now has a nylon lining.  Any chemist types
have thoughts on how to get this off?  I tried strong NaOH since I had
that, but it didn't touch it.  My other next idea is a strong acid, but I
don't have any on hand.  My third idea would be to burn it off (outdoors)
with a propane torch.

Jeff

PS to SM - should the stout for the Irish stew have perceptible levels of
diacetyl, or would that be a flaw in stew?  Any SJCP judges know?  --J

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:03:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rice CAP??

 Joe Kish Writes: 

    "You would consider brewing a Rice CAP? Using Rice, you
will be brewing an AP; nothing but an American Pilsener---
In fact, a Bud!!  Who, in thier right mind would brew a Bud?
Yucch!!  In that case, use about 50% rice and keep the hops
so low you can't taste it."

Come on... Rice or Corn... Either can be used in a CAP. I have a rice
CAP in primary at home and have enjoyed this recipe several times. I
still prefer Corn CAP's but let's not say that the minute one brews
with rice that they are brewing BUD with no hops. 

As far as wanting to brew BUD. I say that is probably one of the
hardest brews to make that you can.

My Rice CAP is 13.7% Rice and is quite the fine brew. Don't knock
Rice just because the big boys use it. 

C'ya!

 -Scott


===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"A Brewer Who Brews in Plaid is the Truest Brewer of All"
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:31:42 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: O2 caps

Regarding sanitizing O2 caps: instead of using oxidizing sanitizers
(bleach, iodophor) which may be using up their capacity, why not
ethanol?

I agree with Al: everyone should try a +/- experiment with these caps. 
See the archives for my report that they had no effect.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:34:28 -0700
From: Dave Sapsis <DAVE_SAPSIS at fire.ca.gov>
Subject: orroz in my thinking

Joe Kish opines:
>To: Chuck Mayglot, You would consider brewing a Rice CAP? Using Rice,
youwill be brewing >an AP; nothing but an American Pilsener---In fact, a
Bud!! Who, in thier right mind would brew >a Bud?Yucch!! In that case,
use about 50% rice and keep the hopsso low you can't taste it. >There's
nothing in the world like CAP, Classic AmericanPilsner, a la Renner. I'm
now trying >Polenta, a form ofcorn grits. Unbelieveable flavor. Joe Kish
And not more than a couple weeks ago (in a post regarding philospical
approaches to beer evaluation) Dave Burley noted:
>For those of you who have made a CAP and compared it toBudweiser, you
will realize that this >CAP is far superior toBudweiser in any of its
many forms. 
There are two related issues I would like to comment on.  One, folks
interested in American beer history believe that both rice and corn have
been used as adjuncts since the American brewing revolution began. Using
rice in the formulation of an American style lager does not de facto
place it in the exact same category as Modern Premium American Lager
(aka Bud).  I actually did make a CAP recently with ~25% California
short rice, and while it was straw colored and quite subtle and dry, it
had appreciably more bitterness and hop aroma/flavor than modern mega
lagers.  I liked it.  Some judges even liked it, awarding it an MCAB
bearth over another CAP I had brewed with corn.  I love corn.  I have
been singing its praises for years.  Why would I make a beer with rice?
Seemed interesting and I wanted to see how it would taste (answer: see
above). 
Secondly, what makes one beer superior to another?  Well, I think it is
belief.   And it is likely that beliefs differ amongst individuals.
Personally, I even think my own beliefs change (daily, weekly, subject
to the weather and whether I am in the groove with some good funk
blasting out of my stereo).  What makes a beer "good" to one person, may
not be the same to another.  I would warrent a guess that some of the
millions of daily Bud drinkers would in fact prefer Bud to a well made
CAP.  Who is to say they are wrong?
Peace.
- --dave sapsis, existential blues brewery, founded 1982



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:48:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tim Anderson <timator at yahoo.com>
Subject: More cooking - corned beef

Scott Murman described a yummy sounding pot roast sorta meal cooked
with stout.

Similarly, I always cook my corned beef in stout.  Just replace half
the water (more or less, depending on your mood at the moment) that you
simmer the brisket in with the stout of your choice.

By the way, I have no idea whether this is in any way Irish and don't
care.  It's delicious.

tim
 

===
Please ignore the advertisement below.  Thank you.

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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---