HOMEBREW Digest #3011 Thu 22 April 1999
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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of
Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
URL: http://www.oeonline.com
Contents:
Big Brew Chat (pbabcock)
Nitrogen head (BrewInfo)
RE: imploding kegs (John Wilkinson)
caustic & CO2 (Bryan Gros)
Invitation to Join Homebrew Club ("30hollywood")
Plastic Conical (Troy Hager)
astringency (BrewInfo)
Gott mashing setup (Pete Diltz)
re: Hop Oil & dead Sea Monkeys(tm) ("C.D. Pritchard")
Storage of Iodophor solution ("C.D. Pritchard")
The Latest BT : Is it just me? (and "Free Beer") (Alan McKay)
Stout Dinners (hwarrick)
Chimay yeast & banana esters... (John S Thompson)
Bad science (James_E_Pearce)
Sweet stouts (BrewInfo)
Carbon Dioxide Purge (Tom Clark)
forced CO2 contaminating? ("Brook Raymond")
Re: Tim Webb's book (Kari Likovuori)
RE: Hop Oil as a preservative? ("Nigel Porter")
RE: Over carbonation = acidity? ("Nigel Porter")
Hop substitutes (andrew.ryan-smith)
RE: Hops Rhizomes available? ("Kelly")
Re: Over carbonation = acidity? (Matthew Comstock)
Re: Hop oil as a preservative ("Charles T. Major")
Chat Room on IRC (msnet)
sanitizing, CO2 (Bryan Gros)
Try Stale Hops (Ted McIrvine)
Re: btu's on a 55 gallon drum / Brew Rat Chat (Big Brew) (Scott Abene)
Recipes/Deep Thoughts (Eric.Fouch)
Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
Enter the Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99. Details at
http://burp.org/SoFB99. 2000 MCAB Qualifier!
Enter the Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99. Details on the HBD Competition
Calendar for June 1999 (http://hbd.org). 2000 MCAB qualifier!
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:36:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Big Brew Chat
Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
Along with other chats being offered up, hbd.org/chat will be available
for this event...
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:46:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Nitrogen head
Dave writes:
>Not quite right, Steve, or at least mis-leading to some extent.
>To produce a Guiness type head it is necessary to provide
>agitation to the beer in the presence of air or nitrogen gas
>( via a sparkler plate, e.g.)such that you cause "breakout"
>of the CO2 and yield bubbles which contain both CO2 and
>nitrogen or air. The latter gases are less soluble in the beer
>than CO2 and therefore, as long as the bubble wall is stable,
>these gases will stay inside. This gives an extremely long
>lasting foam. Things that provide a stable cell wall are
>surfactants like water soluble proteins and other long chain
>water soluble organic solids. With a pure CO2 bubble, even
>with a stable bubble wall, diffusion of the soluble gas through
>the wall leads to an early demise of the foam.
I hope I'm not repeating myself -- this sounds very familiar.
I'm not so sure this is right... if this were true, then wouldn't
the bubbles simply shrink away? As I watch the head of a beer
fade, it seems that each individual bubble is popping, not shrinking.
Therefore, I don't see how the gas that is inside the bubble should
make a difference in how long the bubbles last.
Also, handpumped, cask-conditioned ales have no nitrogen associated
with the dispense. In the north of England, where swan necks are
common and sparklers are used, the ale comes out of the pump looking
like cream and has a cascade just like Draught Guinness. When the
cascade is over, a tight, creamy head is formed over a *relatively*
uncarbonated pint of ale. No nitrogen was used in the dispense...
in fact, the proper way to use one of these pumps is to put the
glass up so the sparkler is at the bottom of the glass and is thus
almost immediately submerged by the ale. So much for the notion that
some atmospheric nitrogen had something to do with the head. By
the way, the heads on these "Northern Pour" beers are very fine-bubbled
and long-lasting.
Personally, I feel that the creamy head in Guinness is due to the
flaked barley and that the nitrogen is used simply as a propellant.
I've posted many times before how 75/25% N2/CO2 at 40psi looks
to the beer like 30psi of nitrogen (virtually insoluble) and 10psi
of CO2, but is forced out of the faucet as if there were 40psi of
CO2 behind the beer...
Which reminds me, how is it that the nitrogen ever made it to the
faucet? Consider this:
25% CO2 + 75% N2 -> =========\\
||
|| //=========== -> beer out
|| ||
------||-||-------
| || |
| N2 || |
| + || |
| CO2 || |
| || |
|~~~~~~~~||~~~~~~|
| || |
| beer || |
| + || |
| dis- || |
|solved || |
| gasses || |
| || |
| || |
------------------
Now, since N2 is virtually insoluble in the beer, then the "dissolved
gasses" in the beer are really virtually 100% CO2. I don't see how the
N2 can make it to the faucet until the keg is empty.
Right?
Al.
Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:47:03 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: imploding kegs
I thought I would comment about the imploding keg theory of George DePiro.
I have frequently filled kegs with near boiling water, transfered the hot
water with CO2 to another keg, and cooled the now empty, CO2 filled keg to
be filled from a lagered keg of beer. Neither keg has ever shown any sign
of stress. They have held the resulting low pressure although I can't say
some air hasn't leaked in. I do know that the cooled, empty keg will draw
in beer for a while from the keg full of beer before CO2 need be applied to
the keg of beer. I will, in the future, make sure there is ample CO2 in the
empty keg just in case some air might leak in. I doubt it could be enough
to matter, though. As far as the full keg imploding, I don't think the water
will shrink enough on cooling and there is not enough air/CO2 space to cause
much of a problem on cooling.
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:34:48 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: caustic & CO2
George deP wrote:
>Never put caustic into a sealed tank that contains a
>carbon dioxide (CO2) atmosphere. The caustic *will*
>(not "can," but "will") react with the gaseous CO2 to
>form solid sodium carbonate. "Big deal" you may say.
>It is when you consider that solids take up much less
>space than gasses.
>
>Yes, you can implode a rather expensive fermentor
>with this trick; the vacuum relief valve won't allow
>enough flow to prevent disaster. No, I have not
>done this!
I haven't done this either, but I've seen the results in a
serving tank at a nameless brewpub. Quite impressive,
unless you're the one paying to replace the tank.
*******
To Al and Jeremy and whomever has experimented with
O2 absorbing caps.
Was there no difference because there was no evident oxidation
in the bottles? Or did you try to oxidize some bottles and got
equal oxidation with O2 and non-O2 caps?
- Bryan
Bryan Gros
Oakland CA
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:54 -0400
From: "30hollywood" <30hollywood at email.msn.com>
Subject: Invitation to Join Homebrew Club
Are you a Long Island Homebrewer interested in joining a Homebrew Club?
L.I.F.E. may be the club for you!
We are a bunch of local homebrewers (Queens, Nassau) who meet monthly at
a local brewpub to discuss and evaluate beer (and sometimes other
beverages). Each month a speaker discusses a topic of interest and
samples are evaluated. There are several BJCP judges in the club and
homebrews are regularly evaluated.
If this sounds interesting to you, contact
ESammy
30hollywood at msn.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:38:26 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Plastic Conical
HBDers,
I have recently gone to 10 gal. batches so would like to sell my 5.5 gal
plastic fermenter for a very reasonable price. I have used it for over a
year doing 5 gal. batches and it works great. I have taken extremely good
care of it and never even thought of putting something in it that might
scratch it. It is very easy to clean and allows you to harvest and reuse
your yeast!
Anyone interested email me privately.
-Troy
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:40:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: astringency
Laurel writes:
>astringent - sulfates - calcium sulfate
I must disagree most strongly! Calcium sulphate (aka gypsum) is *NOT*
astringent! Sulphates are not astringent! Others have posted that
sulphates are bitter. They aren't bitter either. Very slightly salty...
that's about it. Taste it for yourself. I have.
To get a feel for astringency (clearly, based on dozens of scoresheets
on my beers that I have gotten back from competitions, the most misunderstood
and misdiagnosed fault in beer), peel a dozen grapes. Feed the peeled
grapes to your SO and you eat the skins... all at once. *THAT'S* astringency!
While it may be difficult to get enough polyphenols from grape skins to
doctor a beer, you can go to a winemaking supply shop and buy some "grape
tannin." I don't know how much you would need to add to a beer to get
a reasonable level of astringency, but I'm sure you can figure it out by
trial-and-error.
Please, please, let's put this "sulphate == astringency" fallacy to rest,
once and for all!!! While we're at it, let's also kill the other great
fallacy: "dark grains == astringency." Ironically, dark grains lower pH
and make it *MORE DIFFICULT* to extract the astringent polyphenols from
the mash!
Incidentally, polyphenols are called "tannins" in lay terms because they
were (are) used to tan hides.
Al.
Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:24:01 -0500
From: Pete Diltz <pdiltz at plutonium.net>
Subject: Gott mashing setup
I want to publicly thank Dave Mercer for his informative
post re:Gott manifolds on March 12, and for patiently
answering my questions.
I have had a couple of near disasters with my 3/8" spiral
copper manifold, (-no- flow at all); Dave's post came just
in time. My construction was very similar, 1/2" rigid copper
tubing, sweat fittings(friction fit, no solder), same shape
and pattern. Last week it worked like a champ, lautering 24
lbs in a 10 gallon circular Gott, yielding 5 gallons each of
1.112 barleywine and 1.028 small beer.
Thanks, Dave!
Pete Diltz
Trial & Error Brewery
(Halfway between AlK and Jethro, more or less)
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:54:45
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: re: Hop Oil & dead Sea Monkeys(tm)
Al (Al's such a good HBD contributor, no last name should be needed!)
posted about HopTech East Kent Goldings Hop Oil not contributing any aroma
to a IPA at recommended doasge. I recently bought some of the British
Blend variety and just tried it in a glass of an APA. Had the same results
Al did. A sniff of the open bottle's top tells me the reason it doesn't
contribute much aroma. Even a steeped and cooled hop tea adds much more
aroma than the stuff, is considerably cheaper and doesn't form what AL
termed as dead Sea Monkeys(tm).
I also tried the floral flavor late hop essence that's susposed to add hop
flavor. Like the oil, I had to alot (haven't calculated with 4 drops in
the 4 oz. of APA is, but, I'm sure it's more than the 50 ppb recommended).
It also tasted like no hop I'd ever tasted before. Maybe that's what
"floral" means?
Rather than risk dead Sea Monkeys(tm) in my septic tank if I pour the stuff
down the drain, I'm going to add them to the garlic potion I spray on fruit
trees for combating/pissing off Japanese beetles. Since the stuff yields
very little smell or taste, the best I can hope for is that the beetles are
adverse to dead Sea Monkeys(tm).
>I guess it's better than if it looked like *live* Sea Monkeys ;^).
If the hop oil actually did that, the entertainment value might make the
waste of money less painful. <ironic grin>
c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net
web site: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:01:03
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Storage of Iodophor solution
JPullum127 at aol.com posted:
>how long will iodophor diluted to 12.5ppm and stored in an airtight bucket
>stay potent?
Don't know for sure about plastic buckets, but no longer than a week or two
in a plastic 5 gal. cubetainer before it looses most of it's amber color.
Tightly stoppered, the stuff lasts a very long time in a glass container.
I store it between uses in a 5 gal. glass carboy and keep it topped up
water and iodophor. In the last couple of years/12 or so brews. I've used
about 1/3 of the 1 L bottle. BTW, the vapor will corrode a typical rubber
stopper, so wrap the stopper in plastic liberated from a sandwich bag.
c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net
web site: http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:11:22 -0400
From: Alan McKay <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: The Latest BT : Is it just me? (and "Free Beer")
Hmmm,
Just got the latest BT today, took a quick buzz through it as
I always do just to see what's in it this time around, and
suddenly I'm at the end of it. And the worst part is I couldn't
think of any article I really wanted to go back and read.
(No offense to Louis and the HBD crowd).
Have my tastes just changed, or was there not much in
this month's issue? Is it getting thinner? All my
old issues are packed up (moving Saturday) so I can't
compare.
cheers,
-Alan
p.s. Yes, this is a subjective question (hint for science types;-)
p.p.s. cross-posted to HBD and r.c.b.
p.p.p.s. free beer and BBQ for anyone who wants to help me move
Email for details
- --
"Brewers make wort, yeast makes beer"
- Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:15:18 -0600
From: hwarrick <hwarrick at springnet1.com>
Subject: Stout Dinners
My wife and I went to a "Irish Rovers " show a
few years back and during the dinner before the show
they served corned beef like this-1 good corned beef ,
1/2 cp. brown sugar patted across the top of the meat,
1 bottle of Guiness poured around the corned beef
(not on ) so as to soak into the meat. Add potatoes
and carrots latter if you wish. Usually it ends up as
finger food coming out of the oven 4-5 hrs later
at 375. GOOD FOOD
Thanks Hal/Diana
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:25:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: John S Thompson <jthomp6 at unix1.sncc.lsu.edu>
Subject: Chimay yeast & banana esters...
After reading the number of interesting posts recently about Wyeast
1214/Chimay yeast and the associated banana esters, I thought I'd relay my
experience.
I cultured the Chimay yeast from a fairly fresh bottle. I used it to
ferment a tripel. After fermentation, there was a very strong banana
aroma/flavor, which was surprising to me given that I tried to reduce this
aroma/flavor by fermenting pretty cool (like 62F). This aroma/taste was
pretty overpowering and I ended up dumping most of the batch.
Recently (about a year later) I went through my stock of old beer and
found the last bottle. I chilled it and sampled it. The beer was
completely different. It was crystal clear, had darkened
(reddened) somewhat, and had no noticable banana aroma/taste whatsoever.
It was past its prime, but was remarkably batter than the same beer was
when it was a month old. Although the recipe was different, the Chimay
notes that I like were there: the clove/spicy/plum.
I guess the moral of this story is that the 1214/Chimay yeast needs a
healthy aging period after bottling. Does anyone else have similar advice?
John
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:31:35 +1000
From: James_E_Pearce at nag.national.com.au
Subject: Bad science
There has been some discussion on how some people view the HBD as being
very scientific, to the point of being too scientific for some.
Here's a counter view: the HBD hardly qualifies as science at all, and what
science we do see is often bad science.
Good science requires the testing of theories and speculation with
experiments.
Good science requires an open mind.
Good science realizes that correlation does not imply a causal effect --
the difference between observational data and randomized experiments.
Bad science attempts to discredit data to fit a theory.
Bad science is the broad generalization of a specific result.
An example of bad science: the ongoing "debate" between Al K and Dave
Burley regarding a test for sugars.
An example of good science: the experiment that is now being undertaken by
the above mentioned.
Regards
James
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:32:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Sweet stouts
Dave writes:
>It appears that Mackeson is, at least
>analytically, a sweet stout based on the above table.
>I had always assumed that Murphy's ( less so than
>Mackeson's) and Mackeson's were sweet stouts
>based on my tastebuds.
It has obviously been quite some time since you have
tried (at least) Murphy's. If you were to set a pint
of draught or canned Guinness, a pint of draught or
canned Murphy's and a pint of Mackeson's in front of
you, I'm 100% confident that you would group the Guinness
and Murphy's to be similar and the Mackeson's to be
*many* times more sweet.
>Even with Guinness, supposedly THE example of
>dry stout, the export stout in small bottles varies from the
>kegged stout and the Caribbean version is different from
>the Dublin version in the sweetness/bitterness ratio.
I've posted several times to the HBD (once less than a year
ago) that bottled Guinness is a completely different
recipe (it's a 1.050 beer, versus 1.042) than the draught
and canned version. In the Caribbean, they make a 1.070-ish
version which is *very* sweet! These are three different
beers, not just a different sweetness/bitterness ratio.
What I still don't understand is why you would write more
than 100 lines of text when you could have simply written:
"Ooops... I was wrong."
Just kidding, Dave... I did find the stout recipe guidelines
very interesting. Is "Malt Stout" really "Dry Stout" or is
it an entirely different style altogether?
My books are only 25 miles away and I'm going to be sleeping
in the same house with them tonight... the question is: which
one of the 700+ boxes (90 boxes full of beer and 45 boxes of
empties!) are they in?
Al.
Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:16:54 -0400
From: Tom Clark <rtclark at eurekanet.com>
Subject: Carbon Dioxide Purge
FWIW- Today, I tried an experiment that worked rather nicely. Perhaps
others might like to try it.
I began with a very actively fermneting batch of red wine. By using an
inverted bucket type air-lock and attaching a piece of surgical tubing
to it (removed the bucket), the carbon dioxide being genratewd was
diverted into a carboy. However, the carboy was fitted with a cap which
has two stems or ports. A piece of tubing was inserted into one of
these ports from the inner side and allowed to extend to the bottom of
the carboy. The surgical tubing from the the fermenter is attached to
the other port. The carboy was sanitized, then filled with clean water
clear to the brim. Another piece of tubing is attached to the outside
of the port which has the tube inside going to the bottom of the
carboy. By lying the carboy on its side, the pressure required to force
the water out can be reduced. A small hole cut into the exit tube at
its highest point prevents siphoning. In about 3 hours, I had a carboy
full of carbon dioxide and all of the water was now in a bucket. I can
now use this carboy for racking off a batch of beer or wine or whatever.
The same process should work while fermenting beer. By the time your
beer is ready to rack the first time, your secondary fermentor will be
nicely purged. I reckon the same could be done at bottling time.
My primary fermenter is a plastic bucket with lid and grommet.
Anyway, It works for me.
Tom Clark
Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:24:50 -0400
From: "Brook Raymond" <brook at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: forced CO2 contaminating?
I checked out Brewing Techniques web page and found and interesting article
describing an brewing experiment (sorry can't remember the Title at the
moment, but I'm sure many of you are aware of this study since the
participants were from HBD).
Anyway, I poked around with the data and found conclusive evidence that
contaminated samples were caused by force carbonation. Perhaps this has
already been discussed and I am re-iterating old news, I'm not sure. About
half of the naturally carbonated samples were contaminated, but all of the
forced carbonated samples were contaminated. I think this suggests that the
CO2 cylinders might be contaminated. Perhaps a ultrafine filter is on
order.
Brook
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:10:08 +0000 (EEST)
From: Kari Likovuori <likovuor at clinet.fi>
Subject: Re: Tim Webb's book
Al Korzonas writes:
>Bill writes:
>>To read more about these styles, check out Tim Webb's excellent book
>>about the Beers of Belgium, Holland and Luxembourg, put out by CAMRA,
>>which is now available in the US.
>
>I have to disagree with your assessment of this book. I had it in hand
>during my last trip to Belgium. There are several editions, but the
>one I had at the time was only several months old. MANY of the cafes
>listed were closed or had changed ownership (and now only sold Jupiler!)
>or housed Middleeastern restaurants. Hours or operation were often
>wrong and things like "tours first saturday of every month" were also
>incorrect and outdated! If you do get the book, CALL AHEAD and get the
>correct information.
Belgian beer cafes are famous of their unpredictable opening
times especially in summertime. Any guide will be outdated in
six months and that is why I take A Selective Guide To Brussels
Bars (and beyond) by Stephen D'Arcy to be the most up to date
and reliable guide available. Tim Webb's book is the second
best because it's informative brewery and beer notes (with an
attitude). Third book that is a must during a vist in Belgium
is Peter Crombecq's Bierjaaboek 1995-1996, although it is
outdated it contains so much backlog information of beers
and breweries from the last 10 years. And yes, the final word
CALL AHEAD if you want to be sure.
>Personally, I would rather trust Peter Crombecq's website:
>http://www.dma.be/p/bier/beer.htm
Also that page is outdated but has couple of years worth
of updates to the printed Beerjaarboek. And of course
every serious beer traveller has that database imported
to their Psion 5 :-).
You might also consider the book The Beers of Wallonia:
Belgium's Best Kept Secret by John Woods & Keith Rigley.
The best book about Wallonian breweries.
If you happen to have any knowledge of finnish language,
check out one of the best beer site of Belgian beer culture:
The uncompromising beer buff's guide to Belgium
(http://beer.tcm.hut.fi/Ankara/Belgia/)
Cheers,
-=Kari=-
- --
mailto:Kari.Likovuori at clinet.fi
http://beer.tcm.hut.fi/Likovuori/ .~~.
** The Finnish League of Independent Beer Societies (FINNLIBS) ** |--|]
** Finnish Homebrewers' Association ** |__|
** Finnish Society for Traditional Beers **
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:15:40 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Hop Oil as a preservative?
You could always use a very small amount of low alpha hops, which should
produce barely discernible hop character.
How about just making it without hops at all? If it could be done 500 years
ago, I'm sure that it can be done now. Unless you are planning on storing
the ale in less than ideal conditions for long periods, I cannot imagine any
problems. I also believe that some of these old ales were quite sour
affairs, so lack of hops may be an advantage.
Other (old English type) herb additions could also help, instead of the
hops.
Nigel
P.S. I'm no expert in old English ales, this is just info I have gleaned
from some of my books.
>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:47:45 -0700
>From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
>Subject: Hop Oil as a preservative?
>
>Greetings and Salutations..
>
>You know, getting behind on HBD has a sort of snowball effect.. you can
>never seem to catch up.. :)
>
>My question is this.. I work a lot on recreating Pre-1600 beers and ales.
>How can I get the benefit of Hops without the Flavor? (why??!?! you shout?
>calm down, let me explain) In many cases prior to 1500 the English did not
>use hops in ALE (beer was the term for when you added hops, and came from
>the Dutch), and I wan to make a couple to see how they taste. I want to
>avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the
>preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? Like hop oil? in minor
>amounts? other ideas?
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:24:13 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Over carbonation = acidity?
I've read somewhere that CO2 dissolved in beer (or any liquid?) causes
carbonic acid to be produced. This could explain your acidic taste.
If it is produced when CO2 is dissolved in any liquid, would this be the
primary taste that you get in soda water?
Nigel
>Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:09:16 +1000
>From: "Colin Marshall" <byoah at argay.com.au>
>Subject: Over carbonation = acidity?
>
>A kit brew that I did in August '97, with Wyeast #2278, ended very much
>over gassed, probably as a result of being bottled too early. Although the
>beer was drinkable, it tasted quite acidic - not vinegary. I drank it but
>didn't really enjoy it. Recently, 6 stubbies (375 ml bottles) surfaced from
>the back of a cupboard. The first one I drank (not surprisingly) had the
>same faults. So I degassed them for an hour, recapped them and stuck 'em in
>the fridge. Several days later I shared them with some mates, and the
>unanimous appraisal was that they were the finest home brewed beers any of
>the lads had ever tasted. The beer seemed to be soooooo smooooth, compared
>to its previous character. My question (thank you for your patience) is
>this: did the overabundance of CO2 in the beer cause the excessive acidity
>we first tasted? Does this acid have a name?
>Colin Marshall.
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:54:31 +0100
From: andrew.ryan-smith at ind.alstom.com
Subject: Hop substitutes
Rod Prather mentions UK hop substitutes
" . . . Those he mentioned are spruce, broom, rowan (?) and myrica. . . ."
Spruce you already know about.
Broom is an evergreen shrub (ie doesn't lose its "leaves" in winter), growing to
about 5 or 6 feet high. It doesn't so much have leaves in the conventional
sense as long spindly fairly solid "shoots" about 10 inches long. In spring (ie
about now for us the middle of the UK) it has lots of little yellow flowers.
Rowan is also called mountain ash (sorbus aucupuria), and grows into a small
tree. From memory, the leaves are narrow and about an inch long, with say 5 or
6 sprouting off each side of a soft stem. It produces bunches of bright orange
berries in autumn.
Myrica I'm not sure about, but could be bog myrtle, something which I remember
used to be added to beers, although I've not seen any.
Something else that used to be added to English beers was alecost (also called
costmary, or bible leaf), which, according to my herb book, grows wild in mid
and east coast USA (a bit of a sweeping statement, I know)
HTH
Cheers
Rhyno
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:44:36 -0500
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: RE: Hops Rhizomes available?
I got mine at: http://www.freshops.com/rhizinfo.html
HTH,
Kelly
New Orleans, La...
Original message------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:57:21 +0100
From: Mark Warrington <mark.s.warrington at usa.dupont.com>
Subject: Hop Rhizomes available?
Hi all,
I moved in Nov. 98 and transplanted my three year old hop roots to
my new abode and replanted them at that time. They don't seem to have
survived the winter. Does anyone know who still has rhizomes available
at this time of the year?
Mark
"Life is what happens....
....While you're out making other plans"
John Lennon
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 06:03:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Over carbonation = acidity?
Greetings
<Chemgeek alert>
When CO2 dissolves in water at 25C it is partly
hydrated by H2O to carbonic acid, H2CO3 (or (HO)2CO).
For the equilibrium H2CO3 <-> CO2 + H2O, K =
[CO2]/[H2CO3] = ca. 600. Which means CO2 would rather
be CO2, than H2CO3. From a table in 'Chemistry of the
Elements', Greenwood and Earnshaw, 1984, p. 54, the
pKa of carbonic acid is 3.9, but corrected for the
fact that only 0.4% of dissolved CO2 in in the form of
carbonic acid, the conventional value is pKa = 6.5.
For comparison, the pKa of acetic acid is, pKa = 4.75.
Using the 'conventional' value of pKa = 6.5, carbonic
acid is a weaker acid than acetic. However, at higher
pressures of CO2 the equilibrium would be shifted
toward H2CO3 and acidity would increase. Keggers must
have a better knowledge of the effects of PCO2 on the
flavor of beer, but fizzy beer always tastes different
than flat beer to me.
Matt in Cincinnati
_________________________________________________________
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Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:47:32 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Hop oil as a preservative
Badger asks about attaining preservative qualities like
those we get from hops, but without the hops.
I talked with John Cater, owner of a microbrewery here in
Birmingham, who said that rosemary had many of the same
antibacterial qualities of hops. He has studied
microbiology, I believe at UC Davis, though I don't know
the source of his comment. The conversation was in the
context of a 14th century English mead and metheglyn recipe
that called for rosemary, among other herbs, and he noted
that the rosemary would have provided some preservative
qualities.
Another preservative common in the Middle Ages was alcohol.
Ales tended to be stronger than beers are today, and the
alcohol helped keep bacterial infection at bay.
That said, I've got to quibble with Badger's assertion that
hops were unknown in England before the Dutch introduced
them in beer. Hops are mentioned in England as early as
the 10th century in Bald's Leechbook. Though they were not
the brewing staple they are today, they were known in
England and likely found their way into the occasional brew
along with the various other herbs that formed the gruit.
Additionally, beer is not a Dutch loan word, but rather a
native Germanic one used interchangably with ale in some of
the earliest Old English texts. The distinction between
ale (hopless) and beer (hopped) is a late distinction,
after the Dutch began importing weaker, hopped beer. At
this point the English became opposed to hops in beer, not
because of the hops themselves, but because of the weaker
beer they allowed the Dutch to brew.
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 07:40:48 -0700
From: msnet at pacbell.net
Subject: Chat Room on IRC
Hi All,
I have a chat channel set up on the dalnet IRC network called
#HomeBrew. My nickname on IRC is s2j. I also have a bot
(scripted channel protector) which protects the channel from
advertisers and spammers, his nick name is |Vampire|.
I have offered the channel to help in Big Brew 99. IRC is accessible
by all who have a connection to the net. You don't need a 32bit
Java capable browser to access IRC but you do need a client
application. The application I recommend for windows 3.X, 95, and
98 is called mIRC. (home page http://www.mirc.co.uk ) mIRC is
shareware and free for download. Mac and Linux/UNIX users can
also access IRC but I do not know about those systems and
suggest you follow the links at the end of this post.
Some links for help on IRC
http://www.mirc.co.uk/
http://www.dalnet.com/
http://www.mircx.com/
I will help any one who needs it. Just send me mail and I will help
as much as I can.
Fritz Waltjen, AKA s2j
Van Nuys California
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:13:22 -0700
From: Bryan Gros <bryang at xeaglex.com>
Subject: sanitizing, CO2
Lord Badger writes:
>... In many cases prior to 1500 the English did not
>use hops in ALE (beer was the term for when you added hops, and came from
>the Dutch), and I wan to make a couple to see how they taste. I want to
>avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the
>preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? Like hop oil? in minor
>amounts? other ideas?
How about iodophor?
I mean, if you don't want your beer to spoil, then keep things clean and
sanitized. I'm sure hops were recognized as a preservative back when
people had no idea about bacteria and sanitization. Your beer won't
spoil simply because there are no hops.
*******
Colin Marshall asks:
>A kit brew that I did in August '97, with Wyeast #2278, ended very much
>over gassed, probably as a result of being bottled too early. Although the
>beer was drinkable, it tasted quite acidic - not vinegary.
>... My question (thank you for your patience) is
>this: did the overabundance of CO2 in the beer cause the excessive acidity
>we first tasted? Does this acid have a name?
Yes, CO2 is acidic. Acutally, when it dissolves in water, it forms a weak
acid called carbonic acid.
Incidentally, this tartness is appropriate in some styles. Bavarian
Weizen comes to mind. It often has a slight tartness from high
carbonation levels.
*******
Thanks to Rod Prather for sharing his contact with a Scottish
beer historian regarding the lack of peat used to malt barley for
beer in Scotland.
For my tastes, I think that a subtle smokiness would complement
the rich malt flavors of a wee heavy if it could be achieved.
Unfortunately, I've never found the peat smoked malt to leave a
subtle flavor. It is always harsh in the beers I've tried. Maybe
others have had better luck.
- Bryan
Bryan Gros
Oakland CA
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:17:05 -0700
From: Ted McIrvine <McIrvine at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Try Stale Hops
I brew a lot of lambics and an ocassional Berliner-style Weisse. Many
years ago I bought a couple of pounds of Saaz and Goldings whole hops
and deliberately left them in a bag in a closet. Whenever I brew a
lactic-style beer in which I want the preservative effects of hops
without the aroma or flavor, I use stale hops; often as many as four
ounces. These ales lager for a long time, and I've avoided getting the
wrong bugs in my ales while having no hop taste or smell.
Cheers
Ted
> From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
> Subject: Hop Oil as a preservative?
>
> My question is this.. I work a lot on recreating Pre-1600 beers and ales.
> How can I get the benefit of Hops without the Flavor? <snip> I want to
> avoid hops, BUT I don't want my beer to spoil. Is there a way to get the
> preservative qualities of hops, without the flavor? other ideas?
>
> - -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Brander Roullett aka Badger
> Homepage: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger
> In the SCA: Lord Frederic Badger of Amberhaven
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: btu's on a 55 gallon drum / Brew Rat Chat (Big Brew)
Hiya,
First of all why would any sane Homebrewer ever want to convert 55
gallon drums into a brewing system is beyond me.
So here is what I do (Note I am not giving a formula but practical
experience from what I have done):
I usually Fill my HLT the night before and fill my Mash/Lauter Tun
with the correct amount of water also. This helps the water reach at
least room temp before I apply any heat.
I begin heating my HLT and Mash Tun in the morning while I begin to
get the grain bill together. I also use 170,000 BTU Brinkman burners;
my poor little CampChef (38,000 BTU) burners just can not handle a
full boil and really drag as far as getting up to temp is concerned.
I really would not even attempt to boil wort in a 55 gallon drum with
anything under a 120,000 BTU burner. The 38,000 BTU CampChef seems to
really fart out around 18-22 gallons.
By the time I get the 80-100 pounds of grain ground my strike water
is usually right up to the temp I need.
Someone mentioned making sure that the burner is on cement. That is a
great point. You should also keep in mind that CampChef says that
their burners are only rated to hold about 179 pounds. Keep that in
mind and
NEVER PUT A FULL 55 GALLON DRUM ON YOUR BURNER FOR SUPPORT.
At 8.3 pounds a gallon (roughly) and the weight of the drum itself
that is suicide.
I am currently using cinder blocks as stands until I build the damn
thing into a permenant home in my basement with natural gas and steam
hood.
As far as mash temps. I have had little or no trouble holding a
steady mash temp as long as my grain bill is over 70 pounds. The more
grain and surface area inside the drum that is filled the better the
thermal mass I get (makes sense I guess).
If anyone is interested I have scattered pics on my site of the 55
and its mash screen and stuffs:
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skot/equipment
May I ask what you guys are using as chillers? How do you achieve a
quick chill time with a 40-50 gallon batch?
Also, What are you fermenting in?
**********************************************
Now, about the Brew Rat Chat being used for Big Brew.
I have not heard back from Brian at the AOB as of yet. I would love
to do it. I think that the Brew Rat Chat would be a fine place to
have it and I would feel truly happy to host it there. The chat also
allows you to post standard .GIF and .JPG images on the fly if they
have been uploaded to the web.
So it could be visual also. Hell If you have a WebCam I will even
post a link to it if you would like.
Looking forward to hearing Brian's comments on the matter and anyone
elses for that matter.
Guys like Brian are trying to make the AHA/AOB work and Big Brew is
proof. Hell even I can't find anything to bitch about on this one.
C'ya!
-Scott "2 more days.... 2 more days..."
===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)
"This Space Currently for Rent... Inquire within"
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:32:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Recipes/Deep Thoughts
HBD-
With all the talk about recipes, Fred has strapped on his "Kiss The Male
Prostitute" apron and headed for the kitchen.
Looking at the Bent Dick CookBook, I see one of my favorite recipes for BBBB
Soup:
1# Black Beans (try substituting pearled barley once)
1# Bacon
1 Bottle Beer
1 Ham Bone
12 oz V-8 (or Bloody Mary mix or Clamato Juice)
Garlic, to taste
Onion to taste
Salt to taste
Water
Soak the beans overnight, or boil 'em for 30 minutes. Drain.
Put the beans, the beer (dark, hearty style), the ham bone, the V-8, garlic,
and onion into a slow cooker. Top up with water.
Cook on high for 2-4 hours, reduce heat and simmer for 4-8 hours. Then fry up
the bacon, crumble and add. Salt to taste.
Yummy stuff!
Last night I tried to brow-beat the wife into adding a beer to the pot roast.
She only added half a beer (porter). It was so delicious, she said she'd add
a whole beer next time. Good thing she didn't listen to me the first time!
A personal note to George De Piro, Al Korzonas, Dave Burley, Dr. Pivo, AJ,
Steve, Mr. Gump, the lurking xpurts Dr. P says are out there, tired of
defending against textbooks:
Don't go away. Don't go changing. Post your thoughts. Quote your texts.
Name call if you feel the need.
Hell, where's Sammy Mize and NOKOMAREE?
It's all good!
Well, MOST of it.
Eric Fouch
Bent Dick YoctoBrewery
Kentwood, MI
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