---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: : 240V Power Controller (LaBorde, Ronald)
  CO2 leak? ("Anthony & Julie Brown")
  Beer Alcohol Calculator Spreadsheet (Stephen Klump)
  Cider question ("John Watts")
  Ale & Beer in Germanic ("Charles T. Major")
  Mead Questions (Thomas S Barnett)
  Free rhizomes in Boston area ("Lerner, Neal")
  More On: Diacetyl; Red Stuff (AJ)
  Efficiency ("Mark Vernon")
  Cherries ("Alexander S. MacGillivray RN")
  Schaarbeek Cherries ("Grant W. Knechtel")
  We're not all smart... (larson.jt)
  Aerating Water/ Diacetyl (AJ)
  bottling my kegged barleywine (Nathan Kanous)
  Nitrogen Solubility (David Lamotte)
  Cleaner for kegs ("Charles T. Major")
  SureScreen ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  tomahawk hops (Brewinales)
  lawnmowing (kathy/jim)
  Frothy Heads/Dark Wheat (Joel Plutchak)
  Plaster of Paris (Dan Listermann)
  re O2 caps ("Rob")
  re: draught question ("Curt Abert")
  foam discussion ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Mash thickness with recirculation (Nathan Kanous)
  AC Q's (John Varady)
  Calcium Phosphate precipitation (Matt Brooks)
  Re: "Dr. Pivo" ("Larry Maxwell")
  MI hops-grower needed (Vachom)
  CaPO4 Precipitate (Matt Brooks)
  dispensing pressure ("Anthony Brown")


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 23:01:08 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: : 240V Power Controller

>>>>
Junior has asked me to help him with his preschool science project.  He
wants 
to build an infinite power control for our 240V electric heating element
clad 
brew kettle, similar to a Bruheat Boiler.
<<<<

Oohhweee, preschool and 240V already!

>>>>
We want to be able to have 
infinite power settings to control the vigor of the boil.  I ran across an 
SSR that is an analog power controller that produces a variable output from 
0% to 100% for 240V up to 15A.......
 ....The relay controls the power output with a 3V to 10V DC input.  How can
I 
make this thing work for what I want it to do?  What type of part can I use 
to vary the DC input voltage?  How are the 2-120V lines wired to the relay? 
<<<<

I am not familiar with the relay you mention above, however, what follows is
for the more common solid state relays:

The relay is basically an on/off device.  You will find that there is no
difference in the operation of the relay with 3V or 10V input.  This is
merely the range of control input needed to turn the relay on.  Since the
relay is a solid state device, you may operate it at a rapid rate to switch
the power on/off.

>>>>
Or, is there an easier/better way to control the 240V feeding the electric 
heating element?  I have tried using an electric stove top burner
controller, 
but the on/off cycles produced by the controller are spaced too far apart to

produce a continuous   and even power level and boil.
<<<<

Correct, and the temperature variations will put much stress on the element.
What you need is to switch on/off at a rapid rate, I use about 1/2 second as
a good rule of thumb.  This gives very smooth control and because of the
mass of the element, can be thought of as continuous analog control much as
a light bulb is being powered on/off each 1/60 of a second but appears to be
on continuously.  Actually it is, the filament cannot cool off in the 1/60
second time, so the bulb is lighted all the time even though the power is
removed 60 times each second.

You can use a 555 IC timer chip in a circuit to vary the on/off from 0 to
100% with a 1/2 second cycle time.  It is a simple circuit that I have used
in several controllers.  You will find the circuit in "THE 555 TIMER
APPLICATIONS SOURCEBOOK" by Howard M. Berlin published by Howard W. Sams &
Co., Inc. page 32.

The output of the 555 drives the relay, the relay is wired up just like a
simple light switch, in series with the hot (black) wire to the load.  The
solid state relay provides isolation between the control and output
terminals, so the low voltage control circuit is completely protected from
the AC powerline.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Sun,  2 May 1999 00:43:35 CSTCDT
From: "Anthony & Julie Brown" <brown32 at web1.ecol.net>
Subject: CO2 leak?

I am working with my first few batches of kegged beer and am now 
trying to trouble shoot a possible leak in my system.  I am 
hoping someone here will be able to help me out.

I have my keg pressure set to 17lbs for pressurizing and dispensing.
Every morning I turn on the gas for a few seconds to "top off" the
pressure in my kegs and turn it off again in case of any possible
line leaks.  My question is, when I go to turn on the gas at the
tank, the co2 tank pressure reads zero and the keg pressure is 
about 2-3 lbs less than the 17lbs I pressurize at.  Seeing as my
keg still within the first week of being filled, could my beer
still be absorbing that small amount of co2 every day or would
it seem to suggest a small leak somewhere I can not find?  At this
time I can't find a leak, even after spraying soapy water all over
the keg fittings and co2 tank/regulator fittings.  Is the drop
in the co2 tank pressure when turned off normal?  Hopefully someone
has some experience with this....

PS.  I do hear my Co2 tank adding some pressure to my keg in the 
morning when I gas it up so I know I have lost some minimal pressure
somewhere.

Thanks ahead of time...

Tony B.


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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 08:40:24 -0400
From: Stephen Klump <StephenKlump at compuserve.com>
Subject: Beer Alcohol Calculator Spreadsheet

Hello All,

A while back there was a discussion about the various
equations for calculating alcohol content in beer.
This post is to inform you about an excel file which
contains equations/macros to convert spgr to %alcohol.

The spreadsheet was developed by Mr. Jim Hackbarth
at the time with Schlitz, currently with Stroh.  He has given
permission for these (unpublished) equations to be used
by the homebrewing community.  The equation of interest
involves an eighth order linear regression to fit brewing
gravities with alcohol contents based on the (old and dusty)
brewing tables used in the industry.  He showed me the
book of tables which have increments in degree plato to 

4 or 5 decimal places.

The file can be downloaded from the Ann Arbor Brewers Guild
web site (Http://hbd.org/aabg)  Mr. Pat Babcock was kind
enough to post it there - any questions about downloading
please ask him.

Here's how it works:
You need your beer's starting and finishing specific gravities.
The spreadsheet  will ask you to enter you starting gravity and %RDF
(%real Degree of Fermentation).  The second number is to 

be manipulated till the finishing gravity (which is automatically
calculated) equals your finishing gravity.
The equation will give you alcohol %w/w, %v/w, and calories for
a 12 oz bottle of beer.  And you also have calculated the %RDF
 - which is a measure of real attenuation (as opposed to apparent
attenuation).
There is also a degree plato to specific gravity calculator.

Anyway, i dont pretend to understand the math, nor do
I claim these as my own.  I apologize that there is a macro
in the spreadsheet to be downloaded, but my limited 

computer/excel knowledge does no allow me to convert 

the macro into an equation for the cells.

The members of Ann Arbor Brewers Guild have tried it as a beta test
and no problems have surfaced that I know of.

Cheers!
Stephen Klump, Ph.D.
Senior Research Scientist
The (Former) Stroh Brewery Company

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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 10:36:43 -0700
From: "John Watts" <watts at radiks.net>
Subject: Cider question

As my wife is at long last finishing up her degree program, and she 
has been very supportive of my hobby, I thought that a special brew 
would be in order.  She has recently become quite enamoured with 
Woodchuck Amber cider.  Anyone have a reasonably simple clone 
of this?  Or of any Woodchuck's products?

TIA

John Watts
watts at radiks.net


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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 11:42:53 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Ale & Beer in Germanic

The reference is H. E. Kylstra. "Ale and Beer in Germanic" 
in _Iceland and the Medieval World: Studies in Honor of Ian 
Maxwell._ Gabriel Turville-Petre and John Stanley Martin, 
eds. (Victoria, Australia: Wilke & Co., Ltd., 1974).

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 13:12:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: Thomas S Barnett <barnets at mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: Mead Questions

Hello all,
	My girlfriend's not much of a beer drinker.  As a result, i'm
hoping a honey mead, (perhaps with some fruit additions), will be
something we can both appreciate. Having never made a mead, i thought i
might get some advice from those more experienced.  First of all, i found
some locally produced 'Wildflower and Red Clover Honey' which i was hoping
to use.  Is this a suitable variety, or should i use the lighter
varieties?  Secondly, how should fruit additions be prepared, how much
should be used, and when should they be added?  And finally, what
carbonation levels are appropriate? Thanks. Tom Barnett.  



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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 17:47:15 -0400 
From: "Lerner, Neal" <NLerner at mcp.edu>
Subject: Free rhizomes in Boston area

Hi, Boston-area future hop growers. I have about a dozen each 
cascade,
willamette, saaz, and mt. hood rhizomes that I dug up today and will 
gladly
give away to anyone interested and willing to drop by and pick them up.
Please respond to nlerner at mcp.edu. 

  Thanks! 

  Neal Lerner 
  Brookline, MA 

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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 23:21:55 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: More On: Diacetyl; Red Stuff

I have a couple of new pieces of data to report concerning dicetyl.

1. In further fiddling around with diacetyl I discover much to my
surprise (I always thought I was one of those insensitive individuals)
that I can taste and smell the stuff quite distinctly at 0.025 mg/L in
DI water. This was checked double blind. I mixed DI water with diacetyl
in one of two beakers and filled the other with DI just DI water. My
assistant (OK, my wife) filled two glasses from the beakers. She didn't
know which beaker had the diacetly but was aked to keep track of which
beaker each glass came from. I didn't know which beaker was filled from
which glass. I was able quickly, easily and confidently to determine
which sample had the diacetyl. Thus I'm detecting it easily at a quarter
to a half of the nominally reported  detection threshold (0.05 to 0.1
mg/L). The assistant cannot detect it by smell or taste at 0.025 mg/L).
I don't believe that I would be able to detect it at this level in beer
where other flavors/aromas would mask it.

2. Diacetyl isn't reduced by Campden tablets, at least in a water
solution. I had wondered earlier if this might work and it might in the
presence of the proper enzyme (diol dehydrogenase?). It doesn't seem to
be reduced by ascorbic acid either.

3. Dave Miller in his "Continental Pilsner" (Brewers Publications,
Boulder) cites 0.1 mg/L as the taste threshold for diacetyl and lists a
level of 0.15 mg/L for Pilsner Urquel which level he calls "well over
the taste threshold" and then goes on to say that this borders on the
objectionable range but is not objectionable in this case because of the
synergism with other components of the beer flavor. I have measured
Pilsner Urquel and found its diacetyl level (one sample, bottle, export)
to be 0.20 mg/L i.e. reasonably close to what Miller reports. While I
can definitely taste this level in DI water, I cannot detect the
presence of diaceytyl in Pilsener Urquel as diacetyl because, as Miller
says, it blends to enhance the caramel, sweetness and nuttiness. My own
last lager was brewed with Wyeast Czech Pils, pitched at 43, fermented
at 47  and not given a diacetyl rest (intentionally). It measured 0.27
mg/L and I can taste and smell the diacetyl in it as diacetyl. I don't
consider it objectionable at this level and now that I know what it is I
recognize that I've had it before with this yeast strain. In otherwords,
I'm now much better educated as to what diacetyl tastes like and smells
like both in beer and by itself.

4. Based on measurement, the Miller book, experiments with diacetyl in
water and my last Pils I find it hard to believe that PU's diacetyl
level is higher than about 0.2 mg/L nor that other Bohemian Pilsners
would go much higher than say 0.3 becuse it gets pretty unpleasant to
many at those higher levels. I haven't tested any other Bohemian Pils
except Eger Urbier (0.11 mg/L). Cheb, where this is brewed, is a border
town (with Germany) so perhaps they tone the diacetyl down somewhat
there. Both the PU and the Eger samples were, of course, imported into
the US and there is the possibility that diacetyl is toned down for the
US market. But Bohemian Pils spiked to the 0.6 level is pretty one
dimensional and that dimension is diacetyl. At this level it is very
objectionable to some drinkers (e.g. my assistant).

5. While I don't consider the smell of neat diacetyl all that pleasant
my reaction to it isn't nearly as strong as Marc Sedam's. It never got
near cookie-tossing level. I note, however, that the bottle is marked
"stench".

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On to the red stuff that precipitates when iodophor is added to hard
water.
1. The precipitate doesn't form unless the water is pretty hard and the
stregth of the iodophor is pretty high.
2. If the iodine is reduced to I- by metabite or sodium sulfite the
precipitate disappears.
3. If the iodine is reduced to I- before the calcium is added the
precipitate does not form.
4. I did a quick test for phosphate on an iodophor solution and did not
detect any. Doesn't mean it isn't there. Just that I didn't find it in
the quick test I did.

Based on these observations I withdraw the suggestion that the red
precipitate is calcium phosphate, apatite or anything similar.
- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 19:08:54 -0500
From: "Mark Vernon" <mkv at netins.net>
Subject: Efficiency

Help, ...
How do I increase my effidiency. My last few all-grain batches have been
around 60%. I crush my own grain with and Automatic Mill, run the grain
through twice on the 3rd and 2nd setting (not sure of the gap). Single
Infusion mash temp on last batch was 155deg, for 60 min 1.33 quarts per
pound of grain. Any ideas?

Mark Vernon MCSE+I, MCT
mkv at netins.net
www.pleasantstreet.com

Beer is proof that god loves mankind...
    Ben Franklin



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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:34:21 -0800
From: "Alexander S. MacGillivray RN" <alex_macgillivray at admin.state.ak.us>
Subject: Cherries

Does anyone know of a mail order place where I can find some choke
cherries? Also, if anyone has a 10 gallon Gott cooler they want to get
rid of and a 100,000 btu burner as well please let me know. Up here in
Alaska it's hard to find things like that. Thanks in advance guys,

Alex

"Remember Alex states with ale"


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Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 21:08:12 -0700
From: "Grant W. Knechtel" <GWK at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Schaarbeek Cherries

I posted a question a few weeks ago as to the botanical name for the 
Schaarbeek cherries essential to making Kriek Lambic, as I was hoping to 
track down some planting stock.  I had 5 private replies but no one knew 
the proper name, so I repeat the question in case there's a knowledgable 
person out there now who wasn't before.  Some had tried some years ago on 
the same quest and been unsuccessful.  Thanks for the interest from those 
who replied!  Prost

 -Grant
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, Washington USA


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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 07:47:23 -0400
From: larson.jt at pg.com
Subject: We're not all smart...

Just a quick hint for any other cerebrally-challenged brewers out there: DO
NOT under any circumstances try to improve the heating capability of a
170,000 btu propane burner by putting up wind shields on all four sides
(Especially on the outside of the gas line).  Once the gas line melts, the
brewing day is kinda ruined.  I feel stupid but lucky.  Will my freshly
crushed grain remain fresh for at least a week?

Todd
larson.jt at pg.com




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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 12:09:35 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Aerating Water/ Diacetyl

Doug Brown asks about the value of aerating water as a treatement. It
certainly has its uses. It is effective in eliminating iron as it
converts clearwater iron (FeII) to rust (FeIII) which can then be
removed by filtration through a back washable sand bed. It does the same
to manganese. Volatiles, sulfides mostly, are swept out as is chlorine
but not chloramine. Chloramine can be removed by activated carbon
granules (GAC) and it is now common to package those with KDF, an allow
which will reduce heavy metal ions (copper, lead, mercury, chromium)
causing them to plate onto the alloy. Oxidation, GAC and KDF will not
remove calcium, magnesium, sodium, potassium or bicarbonate. Aeration
will, however, expell carbon dioxide gas thus raising the pH of the
water without the need for a neutralizer (which increases the
alkalinity).

* * * * * * * * * * * *  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*

Laurel writes that 2,3- butane dione and 2,3 - pentane dione are
produced in approximately equal quantities in a normal beer. Kunze shows
some example data showing diacetyl levels peaking at about 0.07 mg/L and
pentanedione at about 0.02 - 0.03. Is this inconsistent with other
data/experience? By the way, Kunze has a pretty nice discussion of this
subject. For example, the precursor to 2,3 - pentane dione is revealed:
it is 2-Acetohydroxybutyric acid.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * *

Jeremy Bergsman reports that he works with a 1% V/V diacetyl solution in
EtOH. I've been using a 1% V/V solution in water. What's the advantage
to using EtOH?
By the way, did anyone catch my slip on the BP of ethanol. It (at 77) is
not that close to diacetyl's (88).
- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:17:22 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: bottling my kegged barleywine

Hi Everybody.  I just got done moving.  Since I wasn't ready to bottle my
barleywine, I kegged it for the move.  It's under about 10 PSI of CO2.
Now, I'd like to be able to bottle it.  I don't want to CP fill the
bottles.  I don't have a CP filler and I'd like to condition this beast on
the yeast.  I could vent the pressure and tap the keg and run the
barleywine into a carboy and leave it for a week or two and then bottle as
planned.  I suspect that within that time frame, most of the "excess" CO2
(above atmospheric) should escape and then I could bottle as usual.
Anybody else had the pleasure of doing such a thing?  Any tips would be
appreciated. 

Just to summarize and make sure I said it right, the barleywine is kegged
under 10PSI and I want to bottle condition it and I don't have, nor want to
use a CP bottle filler.  Any info on how to get it from keg to bottle with
added yeast and primings would be appreciated.

nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:37:29 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Nitrogen Solubility

In HBD 3020 there were a few guesses as to the relative solubility of
N2 and CO2 with QDA's ranging from 10 to 300 times.

To help prolong the this gas debate a little longer, I have looked up
my SI Chemical Data book (2nd Edition 1971).  I know that it is old
but is is a long time since I went to school.

Solubility is quoted in grams of gas per kg water as follows :-

At 0 deg C	N2	0.0294
		C02	3.35
		which is 114 times

At 20 deg C	N2	0.0190
		C02	1.69
		which is 89 times

Now back to the ASCII art for someone to explain how this translates
into pressures measured on our guages ...

Keep on smiling

David Lamotte
Brewing down under in Newcastle, NSW, Australia


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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 08:40:06 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Cleaner for kegs

I use Electrasol, which is a a brand of dishwasher 
detergent (whichever brand you choose, unscented is always 
a good idea). At 1 cup/5 gallons it works great for 
removing beer gunk, both from the inside of kegs and glass 
carboys.  Mixed with hot water, the icky kraeusen ring on 
the inside of the carboy dissolves and drops to the bottom 
with 30 mins with no scrubbing.  I typically wipe out the 
inside of my kegs with a sponge and run a brush through 
the dip tube, just because I can. All in all, dishwashing 
detergent seems like a powerful yet relatively mild brewery 
cleaner.  I believe that Joe Rolfe has also recommended it 
in this forum in digests past.

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:52:42 -0400
From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com>
Subject: SureScreen

OK I give up. I recently upgraded my system to brew ten gallon batches. I'm
now 6 sessions into this setup and have gotten beyond my stuck sparge
problems and leaky valves. Other than installing pumps to move the brew
around (cause that 10 gal. batch gets heavy to move around for a gravity
system) I'm down to one problem. Having brewed this past weekend, every
thing worked like a charm. A good recirc, steady sparge, good conversion,
etc., etc. I hoisted my 18 gallon brew pot full of 12 gallons of wonderful
aroma. Started my boil, added my hops (whole leaf and quite heavily as this
is to be an APA), no boil over but a good rolling boil. Used my wort chiller
for the first time and within 15 to 20 minutes I as was at 80 degrees. Again
carefully hoisted the pot to high enough point to fill the carboys.
Confidently place the fill tube from the pot into the carboy opened the
valve and a strong flow began. Problem is that lasted about 5 seconds and
then nothing. With all of the hops and I assume break material the
SureScreen was clogged. In the past I've tried a stainless steel scrubby
around the screen and this helps but it still gets clogged. I've tried
whirlpooling but maybe I don't know how to do this either. My last resort is
the old "hairy arm" technique to keep the screen from clogging. Any help or
suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I'm getting tired of naming my
brews the "Hairy Arm Pale Ale".
Actually, I am naming this last brew the Red Bud Pale Ale, since my red bud
(tree not beer), was dropping its flower pedals and I'm sure a few found
there way to the kettle. Hmmm, wonder what flavors that will instill.

TIA.

Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA
Home of the Yellow Breeches Brewery





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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:50:34 EDT
From: Brewinales at aol.com
Subject: tomahawk hops

i was talking with a guy on the brew-rat chat who  was mentioning his love of 
tomahawk hops, claimed they were 17+%aa, with wonderfull spicy aroma, didn't 
know much about ancestry ect. anybody ever heard of them?


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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:55:02 -0400
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: lawnmowing

As if this thread hadn't outrun its.........anyway.

I've always presented the beer world I know to questioners, as a USA
world of a few brands of "quench your thirst beers" and alot of low
volume brands of "sippin" beers. Those Miller beer ads with the
celebrating sports players (complete with slender, admiring, beautiful
femmes) high fiving in the pub, or the Busch ads of the cowboys in the
mountains chasing mustangs while the Busch cools in the icy stream of
splashing mountain water...thems the "quench your thirst beers".

Now...for an evening/afternoon of conversation and maybe listening to
Irish folk music, blues or an umpah band in a bier garten, or playing a
few hands of bridge, or having with a prime rib; these call for "sippin"
beers.  These have flavor presence that resist chugging even tho those
huge mugs of cool Ocktoberfest/Vienna, get gulped anyway.....I just
can't sip my way thru a mug that size.  

If folks break out of the BudMillerCoors mold, they switch
modes to sipping beers and savoring the smell, the flavor, the mouthfeel
and finally the aftertaste.  Those longnecks of "Lite" full of biting
cold carbonation and little else, serve an important purpose in the
hurried inbetweens of sets of line dancing or breaks in the ski
session.  

Can a hot, thirsty tourist drain a wit, a bitter, a hefeweizen, a
Guiness or a Kolsch?  I can, so my "either/or" worlds maybe a bit
shakey, but it helps me explain to the mainstream beer drinker why the
bier world is so fasinating to me. Now to get to work so I have time to
brew a CACA.

cheers, jim booth, lansing, mi

ps  set your lawnmower at 3" high,  its better for the grass and you
don't have to cut it so often.



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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:18:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Frothy Heads/Dark Wheat


   On the topic of nitrogen, heading, and Guinness...

Pat Babcock wrote:
>Frankly, I'm firm in my belief that all nitrogen in stout does is gives
>us the means to agitate the beer to the point it outgasses CO2....
>In the widget, this is accomplished by by the jet of beer - beer
>which got into the widget through the expansion of gasses in the
>container forcing it in - agitating the remainder of the beer. In a
>sparkler, the source of agitation is similar: forcing the beer through
>a shower head causing multiple jets of beer.

Conversely (at least partially), Dave Burley reasons that...

>Nitrogen( or some non-soluble gas) is necessary to get the
>characteristic foam on a Guiness. I agree that it is the
>protein and other surfactants which are necessary to get a
>foam, but the stability of the foam is due to the gas content
>of the bubble. 

   Just to throw another point of fact into the arena...

   Several years back (maybe around 1991), before the advent
of the widget, a friend hiked around England and Ireland,
bringing me back a 6-pack of Guinness he bought at the
brewery.  It came with a little black syringe-like thingy.
One was instructed to inset the syringe in the beer in your
glass, draw some up, then forcefully inject it back into the
glass.  The result was a nice creamy Guinness-like head on
the beer, without the benefit of nitrogen.  At the time, I
tried it on other beer and got the same result.
   I have no recollection as to whether the head lasted as
long as a nitrogen-dispensed or N2-widget head.  I do still
have the syringe-thingy, so I can do some side-by-side tests.
- -------------------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, "Dr. Pivo" asks:
>Just where do you get "dark wheat"?

   While I don't think he asks the right question, I do have
one answer.  Schreier Malting Company (Sheboygan WI USA) sells
a roasted wheat from their partner DeWolf-Cosyns (somewhere in
Belgium).  Seems to be more closely related to their Biscuit
malt than to, e.g., roasted barley.
- --
Joel Plutchak <plutchak at uiuc.edu>
Brewing Big in Flatlandia (aka Champaign-Urbana), Illinois



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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:23:23 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Plaster of Paris

Frank Timmons ( Frank.Timmons at Allied Signal.com )  writes:

<Plaster of paris is just calcium sulfate (half hydrate, for the chem.
geeks), with usually a little calcium carbonate as an impurity.>

While I may be wrong, I believe that I was taught that plaster of paris 
had
iron filings in it to compensate for srinkage.  It seems that the iron
filings rust during the curing of the gypsum  and  rust has more volume
than the origional filings.  The proper ratio produces no srinkage.

Dan Listermann      dan at listermann.com        72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:46:27 -0500
From: "Rob" <brewmasters at texasbrew.com>
Subject: re O2 caps

>Call me a purist, but the shop I buy my caps from has them in an open box
>from which I use a metal scoop to transfer them to my waiting bag. Being
>open as such, I cannot be certain that they would be in the same state as
>those taken from a freshly open box (possibly the key to their/your
>success with the no-clean method). Any brewer worthy of their salt will
>tell you that you don't want to expose wort or beer to grain dust, right?
>All those lacto-buggies (among others) like to hitchhike on the husk and
>end up on the dust, we're told. Well, I've never seen much care taken in
>this particular shop (or any other, for that matter) to prevent said dust
>from mingling with the nearby caps.


They really have them in an open box? Ok I can see the problems there. All
of the caps we sell
we have in in bags. (to keep the dust/buggies off) I just didn't think that
the Homebrew shop would
sell them that way.

Rob





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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 09:50:30 -0500
From: "Curt Abert" <abert at flanders.isgs.uiuc.edu>
Subject: re: draught question

Greetings all,

Al K. wrote in HBD #3018:

> Finally, you should be prepared to *clean* and
> sanitise the lines periodically.  I chose to not
> put my faucets on the outside of my cooler.  Despite
> the fact that my hoses and faucets are refrigerated,
> I still get mould growth inside the faucet!  This
> will only be faster in an unrefrigerated faucet.
> You may find yourself shutting off the system and
> soaking the faucets in BLC (beer line cleaner)
> a lot more often that you would like.

While I agree with Al on the practice of sanitizing the lines,
my experience is the exact opposite of his when it comes to
the taps.  I used to leave my cobra taps attached to the keg
stored in a refridgerator, and I too suffered from mold growth
on the taps.  However, this winter I upgraded to a 3-tap
tower system on a 'keggerator', and have found no mold
growth on the taps stored at ambient air temperature.

My guess is that the relatively high humidity found in
the fridge is the culprit, not the temperature.
YMMV, of course.

Curt Abert
Champaign, IL


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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:50:32 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: foam discussion

Dave says DeClerck states, "A gas such as carbon dioxide which is
moderately
soluble in water, diffuses much more rapidly
through the films surrounding the bubbles than
does air. Thus, a head formed by air is much
more stable than one formed with carbon dioxide"

If a bubble filled with air is surrounded with air
what would be the cause for diffusion?
So yeah, it would be more stable.
- --------------------------------------------------
Dr. Pivo mentions perculation testing that shows nitrogen
is significantly soluble. I am not clear where his nitrogen/water
interface was, was that at the working depth of 400 metres?
If that is the case then wouldn't the working pressure be
in excess of 640 PSI? and I'm sure nitrogen would show
increased solubiltiy at that pressure. Without seeing
a schematic of the system I may be missing the evidence there.
  If we can trust Dr. Lewis' figures of .018 volume
of N and 1.8 CO2 in a stout with a blend of N/CO2 at the ratio
of 1:3 at a pressure of 45 PSIA that puts the solubity of nitrogen
hundreds of time lower than CO2, but that is beer, simple water
reacts differently.
  From *anecdotal* evidence, gases don't just *pop* out of solution
instantaneously. Look at any beer you've opened, doesn't it take
hours for a beer to go still after opening? The CO2 evolves slowly
over a period of time, or we'd always have flat beer or bars would
have evolved into specially licensed hyperbaric chambers.
This was the point of my relating it to the "bends".
If nitrogen evolved out of solution at the same rate that CO2
left solution there would be no "bends". This is why the switch to
helium blends for deep diving that *do* exit solution as fast or faster
than CO2.

- -----------------------------------------------------
 

Dave also said,
>"When someone starts a tirade with his credentials
>in the format like "I have forgotten more technology
>in brewing than I know", I watch out.

 Similarly if someone says,"I taught him all I know and he still doesn't
know a thing." better duck. <g>

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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 09:55:19 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Mash thickness with recirculation

Hi!  For those of you that use pumps to recirculate the mash (RIMS, HERMS,
etc.) what sort of grist to water ratio do you use?  I realize that with a
false bottom, you have to have enough strike water to cover the false
bottom, but beyond that, what sort of ratio do you use to "allow" you to
recirculate with a pump?
nathan in madison, wi
trying to prevent problems before they begin


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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:57:07 -0400 (EDT)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: AC Q's

I am finally putting the finishing touches on my walk in cold room. I am
planning on using an AC unit to cool the room to 52F. I am wondering what
the AC will do when the temp of the air outside is lower that the temp in
the cold room? Will the fan on the AC turn on and draw cold air from outside
into the box without running the compressor? I was planning on using a two
thermostat arrangement that would either run the AC or a muffin fan
depending upon the temp of the air outside. If it is lower than the set temp
of the room then the fan would turn on, otherwise the AC would turn on.
After thinking about it, I thought that perhaps the AC unit would only run
the compressor when it was needed. I am trying to save electricity by only
using the AC when necessary (especially in the fall/winter/spring when
outdoor temps are lower than 52F).

If the AC cannot handle this task on it's own, what kind of circuit
arrangement would I need to do what I want? My guess is:

I would need one temp controller to switch power between the muffin fan &
the AC depending upon the temperature outside. Say, for example, the set
temp is 52F. If the outside temp is 52F or lower the muffin fan would be
supplied power. If the outside temp is greater than 52F, the power would be
switched to the AC. I assume I would need some kind of a relay to switch the
power between the two.

A second controller would sense the temp inside the cold room and turn on
the power to the above circuit (which would then turn on either the fan or
the AC and cool the room).

 -

I had a blast at the big brew last weekend. I made 15 gallons of AlK Alt
(100% Munich to 1052 & 55 IBUs; mostly from Spalt, but about 25% from
Hallertau since I only had 1/2 pound of 3.5 AAU Spalt, not quite enough to
hit 55 IBUs). We were having so much fun, we forgot to toast at 2 pm. Our
site had an importer (John Strong) from Warminster Malting stop in and hang
out for a while. He ended up leaving us 4 25kg sacks of floor malted Marris
Otter Pale Ale. I can't wait to try it in my next batch.

Later,

- -- 
John Varady                     The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing                Custom Neon Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA                            Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net                  http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 



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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 11:12:53 -0400
From: Matt Brooks <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: Calcium Phosphate precipitation

In HBD 3019 Alan Meeker wrote,

>Matt, I don't understand your stated requirement for high pH in order
to get CaPO4 to precipitate.

My post was not intended to imply that CaHPO4 (I am not certain CaPO4 is
a compound? ) would not form in brew water or wort as it very well
may.   Actually, if you had read my post thoroughly, as a grad student
in the sciences (I myself having been one not too long ago) who is
reviewing a technical statement for critique should :^) , you would have
noticed that I said "Hydroxyapatite" would not form unless the pH was
over 11.0, this statement is true.  Hydroxyapatite is a more complex
form of calcium phosphate precipitate... Ca5(PO4)3OH.... which
precipitates out at high pHs.

Certainly Calcium Phosphate will precipitate out of a solution with
excessive levels of both Ca and PO4 available (especially the
orthophosphate), and favorable conditions prevail,  unfortunately I dont
believe there will be a whole lot of free Ca available for the reaction
to occur (unless of course the brew water has an excess of non carbonate
Ca hardness, which would make it less then ideal for most beers) or of
course the brewer is adding CaCl2, or CaSO4.  Even if the brewer is
adding readily available forms of Ca it is not as simple as adding two
reagents to a test tube to get CaPO4 to precipitate out of solution, as
there are numerous other reaction competing in the mash.

>The only source I could quickly lay my hands on (MBAA The Practical
Brewer) quotes PO4 levels in wort >at between 575 and 846 mg/L for a 12
degP wort.

A question regarding MBAA analysis of "PO4" concentrations in wort,  are
these actual orthophosphate concentrations (the readily reactive form of
phosphorus) , are they recorded as "mg/L as phosphorus" it is very
unusual to post a PO4 concentration alone rather the convention is to
post orthophosphates in "mg/L as phosphorus".  Unless the PO4 is readily
available (weak acid or strong base form, as in a phosphate buffer
soln.. also high localized PO4 concentrations are key for getting the
precipitation to occur) for the reaction with Ca it would take a bit of
coaxing to get it going, if it proceeded forward at all.   The calcium
phosphate system is very complex, and there are a variety of solids that
can form.  These solids can be grouped as follows:  Orthophosphates,
Polyphosphates, Mataphosphates, and Organicphosphates,  within these
major groups there are numerous individual compounds that may form as a
result of phosphate complexing.   Also the absence of excessive
alkalinity (over and above the hardness requirement) will need to be
investigated, as CaCO3 will tend to readily form if additional Ca
becomes available from CaCl2 additions.

In short, can CaHPO4 precipitation occur in wort, perhaps, but I dont
think it is occurring.  Maybe someone can convince me otherwise,  as I
have been known to be wrong before, but just once, and that was when I
thought I was wrong,  but as it turned out I was actually right   :^).


Matt B.
Northern VA.



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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 08:27:42 -0700
From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
Subject: Re: "Dr. Pivo"

Dave Burley writes:

>If I have to call Dr. Pivo "Dr." ( whether he is or
>not so educated), then lots of other folks here,
>including me, should be so honored.  Frankly,
>this is not a forum for that kind of name calling.
>Like all others, I prefer  to be called by my given
>name or nickname - please stick to "Dave"

If "Dr. Pivo" is not his nickname, then he is one
lucky brew(st)er!  Cool name.

 -Larry (just "Larry") in San Diego



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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 11:29:16 -0500 
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: MI hops-grower needed

After several months of fast-talking, I've convinced my mother, an
herb-farmer, to produce hops on her farm in northern Michigan.  Word has
gotten out quickly, and she has already received orders for dried hops and
rhizomes from local brewers--and the hops are still in planting flats in the
greenhouse.  My mother is in need of advice, however, from an experienced
hops grower.  She's done lots of reading, has decades of horticultural
experience with a wide variety of flowers, herbs, vegetables, etc., but
she's been gardening privately and commercially long enough to know that she
needs some on-site, practical advice from someone who's grown
hops--particularly on how to protect the plants from vermin and disease.  If
you live in Michigan or plan on visiting this spring and have hops-growing
experience, please drop me an email.  It's a beautiful farm, right in cherry
country, lots of flowers, herbs, etc. near lots of vacation attractions.
I'm certain such an adviser would get some free fresh hops and rhizomes,
too.  

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 12:39:01 -0400
From: Matt Brooks <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: CaPO4 Precipitate

In HBD 3019 AJ wrote:

>Matt Brooks posted in #3016 that phosphate does not precipitate until
>high pH is reached and that the precip does not form on an equivalent
>per equivalent basis. Strictly speaking neither of these statements is
>quite correct

Actually I said that "Hydroxyapatite" [Ca5(PO4)3OH] does not precipitate
until the pH reaches 11.0, which still holds true.

>These reactions occur on an equivalent basis as do all reactions

not really:

this particular reaction (hydroxyapatite formation) is a pH driven
reaction, not a milliequivalent per milliequivalent based reaction, as
the hydroxyapatite compound has an OH attached which is a direct result
of the excessively high pH at which this reaction occurs.   The
formation of hydroxyapatite is spontaneous at pH 11.0 and will only
cease when all the PO4 is complexed with Ca or the pH is lowered.

As I just posted to the HBD about CaPO4 complexes suffice to say there
is alot of competing reaction and there are way too many phosphate
complexes (Orthophospates, Polyphosphates, Metaphophates, and
Organicphosphates), that could form in a wort solution that may take
precedence to calcium phosphate precipitation.

Could calcium phosphate precipitation occur, certainly, does it occur I
don't think so, not to the extent that it plays a role in the brewing
process (i.e. negative effects)....

> we raise the pH converting
>them to, respectively CO3-- and PO4---, in the presence of calcium as,
>for example, by using calcium hydroxide as the alkali). This promotes
>the formation of highly insoluble calcium carbonate and calcium
>phosphate (actually hydroxyappatite in the case of phosphate)

Actually as stated above "Hydroxyapatite" will not form unless the pH is
11.0 or greater, Calcium Hydrogen Phosphate, or Tricalcium Phosphate may
form at lower pHs but to my knowledge the hydroxyapatite form does not
occur at less then pH = 11.0.

>Furthermore, the solubility product of hydroxyappatite is uncertain to
about 10 orders of magnitude.

perhaps, however the K (so) of hydroxyapatite is 10 (-55.9- uppercase)
which is about as small as I have seen for a compound (except Fe2S3) so
10 order of magnitude seems of little consequence, as 10(-45) is still
quite insoluble.

Also, the statement that barley malt is 1% phosphate does not indicate
that it is in the reactive form of orthophosphate [HxPO4] (where x = the
number of hydrogens), it could be bound up in Organicphosphate (or
other) complexes such as glucose 6-phosphate, or phospholipids,
nucleotides, phosphoamides etc.......  Unless of course you meant that
barley was 1% orthophosphate, which seems a bit excessive to me, one
would first have to break the existing phosphate complex to get
phosphate onto the reactive form before calcium could complex with it,
unless the complex was relatively weak to begin with, this could be a
challenge.

I hope this post does not escalate into another ongoing debate about a
topic that I dont believe really makes a difference in the brewing
process, and isnt that the bottom line.........does it make a
difference?


Matt B.
Northern VA.



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Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 12:42:14 -0500
From: "Anthony Brown" <brown32 at ecol.net>
Subject: dispensing pressure

Just another quick kegging question...

I store my beer in kegs in the fridge at around 40 degrees, and to
carbonate it to my
liking I need to pressurize to 18 or so psi.  To dispense however, i need
to crank it down to 8 or so psi to avoid excessive foaming even with 6 feet
of 3/16" tubing attatched.  My question is after my beer is adequately
carbonated at 18 psi, can I just leave the pressure in the kegs at 8-10 psi
for dispensing without losing carbonation over time?

Any help would make my life easier without all that regulator adjusting,
and I would really rather not have 8-10 feet of tubing wrapped up in my
fridge....

Thanks, 

Tony B.


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---