---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Clear Weizen / Lauter tun performance ("George De Piro")
  Phosphate (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  bottlecaps.... (Joe Rolfe)
  Re: O2 Caps (mark)
  Lager Starters (Troy Hager)
  Re: draught question/Guinness head (Spencer W Thomas)
  cleaning caps and bottles (SClassification)
  Need a diacetyl rest for Imperial Stout? (Matt Birchfield)
  cleaning sanke kegs? ("Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS")
  Calcium Phosphate Precipitation (Matt Brooks)
  Cleaners for stainless steel? (jgibbens)
  More from a Plastered Home brewer and Bullet Autoclaves (Joy Hansen)
  Jeremy explains sterilization to Joy (Joy Hansen)
  Idophor Sanitizing Solutions Revisited (Joy Hansen)
  Pivo is Polish for peer (Jack Schmidling)
  RE: Legalized Homebrew ("Kuhl, Brian S")
  Upside-down Converted keg, SHMS update ("Ludwig's")
  malting 101? (Dick Dunn)
  MCAB Prizes (Charley Burns)
  re: ring around the porter ("Penn, John")
  Plaster of Paris ("Alan McKay")
  clear Weizen ("Alan McKay")
  IPA Recipe - Too much Hops ? (woodsj)
  re:  lifting converted keg kettles ("Kensler, Paul")
  Free bottles (De Pere, Wisconsin) (Richard Stueven)
  Re: Lifting converted-keg kettles (Jeff Renner)
  Sanitizers and Oxidizers ("Rick Theiner         ")
  Upgrading the Brewery, advice wanted (Andrew Ager)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 05 May 99 08:53:04 PDT
From: "George De Piro" <gdepiro at fcc.net>
Subject: Clear Weizen / Lauter tun performance

Hi all,

Fred Johnson writes:

" However, it is cloudy only for the first few weeks
after I bottle and gets progressively clearer during
storage (under my house at only several degrees below
outside temp) This beer eventually clears just like all
the other beers I've  brewed."

Back to me:

I have brewed many Weizens and have noticed the
same effect that Fred has; after about 6 weeks in the
bottle the beers become clear, sometimes also becoming
thinner and suffering from reduced head retention, too.

A bit more than a year ago Hubert Hangoffer and I
(and perhaps some others) had a discussion about
this very phenomenon.  According to a paper that
Hubert had (I think it was from the Feb. 1998
Weihenstephan technical lectures) yeast autolysis
is largely responsible for the degradation of protein
in unfiltered Weizen.

Although the flavors of autolysis may not be noticeable,
the more subtle effects will be:  the pH of the beer
goes up a few tenths and proteases released by the
yeast cells degrade proteins.  This produces clear
beer and can diminish the head and body, too.

It would appear that the major reason that some of
the larger breweries replace the primary Weizen
starin with a lager strain at bottling is to avoid this.
The Weizen strains are often not as hardy as
less exotic yeasts.

Of course, the simple fact that the yeast
settles over time also explains the overly clear
Weizen. In all likelyhood it is a combination of the two
events (and maybe some other stuff, too).
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Santerre draws a cute ASCII picture of the
grain in his lauter tun moving away from the tun
wall, forming a sort of convex surface during the
sparge.  My homebrew lauter tun does this same thing.

This is not uncommon, but it can encourage channeling
down the tun walls and reduce efficiency.  Paul Smith,
a Siebel instructor with many years of experience with
Coors, stated that if your lauter tun tends to encourage
this sort of thing, you should push the grain up higher
against the walls at the start of the lauter.  You can fix it
during the lauter, too, if you care that much.

Have fun!

George de Piro (Nyack, NY)
Head brewer, Albany Pump Station

Malted Barley Appreciation Society
"Brooklyn's Best Homebrew Club"
http://hbd.org/mbas


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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:08:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Phosphate 


Concerning possible precipitation of phosphates Matt B wrote:

>My post was not intended to imply that CaHPO4 (I am not
>certain CaPO4 is
>a compound? ) would not form in brew water or wort as it very well
>may.   Actually, if you had read my post thoroughly, as a grad student
>in the sciences (I myself having been one not too long ago) who is
>reviewing a technical statement for critique should :^) , you would have
>noticed that I said "Hydroxyapatite" would not form unless the pH was
>over 11.0, this statement is true.  Hydroxyapatite is a more complex
>form of calcium phosphate precipitate... Ca5(PO4)3OH.... which
>precipitates out at high pHs.

Since you included the little smiley face there in your post I'm assuming this
response is meant to be humorous, at least in part. I've certainly seen
more than enough acrimonious debate here over scientific minutiae on this
forum and hope this thread isn't headed in a similar direction ;)

Yes, I certainly did notice your reference to hydroxyapatite. However, I
think that most people reading your post would've come away with the
conclusion that to get calcium and phosphate to precipitate one would need to
get to an extremely high pH. You specifically made the point that in water
treatment quicklime is used to remove phosphate and that this causes the pH to
quickly rise, that the reaction is a pH-dept reaction and, in closing you said
that you seriously doubted that anyone would add enough calcium to get the pH
up above 11.0   I just thought that your post would leave the impression
(especially to non-chemists) that high pH is absolutely required for
ANY phosphate precipitation by calcium. 

As far as the form of phosphate in barley malt there are going to be many with
inorganic polyphosphate likely to be a major source but I'm just guessing
here...

You asked about the phosphate levels I cited from the MBAA book, this is from
a table on inorganic wort constituents and is indeed listed as PO4 (mg/l). 

Incidentaly, Here's an interesting quote from the chapter on wort production
by J. Dougherty:
____________________________________________________________________________
"...natural pH control in the mash takes place principally under the catalytic
influence of the enzymes phytase and the nucleases. These malt enzymes under
peptonizing conditions causes the release of phosphate ion from the organic
phosphates of the malt. The resulting mixture of phosphates is composed mainly
of the dibasic potassium phosphate, K2HPO4, which has a pH of 8.4 and
monobasic KH2PO4 which has a pH of 4.7. ... In the presence of adequate
calcium such as calcium sulfate in the brewing water a reaction takes place
between the calcium sulfate and the alkaline potassium phosphate: 

K2HPO4 + CaSO4 --> Ca3(PO4)2 ppt + KH2PO4 + K2SO4

This will be forced to the right and th4e alkaline K2HPO4 is very rapidly
brought into reaction and converted. The pH is thus naturally adjusted to the
optimum range."
__________________________________________________________________________
Although I do have anal-retentive problems with his talking about the "pH of
phosphates" instead of their pKa's and It seems likely that phosphatases 
in addition to  nucleases will be playing a role in liberation of inorganic
phosphate from organic sources,  this still provides an example of the
importance of a phosphate ppt reaction occuring at (relatively) low pH as
well as the obvious importance of calcium (apart from the stabilizing effect
calcium has on the barley amylases). 

In closing I must say that I  completely agree with your assertion that we are
unlikely to be precipitating out enough phosphate to negatively affect our
beer - the yeast certainly seem to have no problems growing and they have an
absolute requirement for bioavailable phosphate in the the wort! 

 -Alan Meeker
 



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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:18:55 -0400
From: Joe Rolfe <rolfe at sky.sky.com>
Subject: bottlecaps....

>From my experiences on sanitizing caps or not....

If the box (huge amount of caps...many gross) is keep in a clean dry
environment, and is in a virgin state sanitizing is not done (most
micros).  Handling is one key item if the entire box is not used up in
one shot.  Bottling line operators should not directly touch them with
hands, the top of the capper bin should be covered. Some older
bottling line dont have a sanitary method for removing unused caps -
easily.  What we did on our manual line and seemed to work for us -
dump the caps in iodine - just to be safe.  We never used a full box
of caps in one bottling run.

How this relates to homebrewing - how does the store repackage the
caps?? Is the shop grinding grain right next to the open box of caps?
Are the repackers digging around with thier hands? If any of these
conditions are not met you could get contaminated caps.  You really
have no control unless you buy the full box. Sure most times you wont
have a problem - I'd go with the ounce of prevention tho....

Back from Grand Bahama now - thank god - good weather, food, Bahama
Mamas and beer (Kalik and Guinness) - dirty, crappy island tho....

Joe Rolfe


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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:36:52 +0200
From: mark <shrike.cars at accesinternet.com>
Subject: Re: O2 Caps

Ah, yes... But you see, the majors have these large million dollar
machines called Pasteurizers.....

While working for a brewery in Germany (Kaiserdom
Privatbrauerei, Bamberg. No, they dont make Rauchbier),
I was witness to the same thing.
The bottling production went like this:

Bottles brought in on pallets, depalletized via machine, run
down a long moving band/line to a bottle washing machine
( the machine was about 100 feet long). This would wash
the bottles with "Saure" (acid, can't do the a with the umlaut
in ASCII) and then rinse them with filtered / sterile water. The
bottles were then snaked around via more moving band/line,
and ended up at the filler (50 or 75 head Krones I think). At
which point, after filling, they were capped (duh!). The caps
were taken from their plastic bag lined boxes and dumped
straight into the cap hopper. Not sterilized or sanitized (which
leads me to think they come pre sterilized? Gasp! Imagine
that!). However, they had a large pasteurizer that you loaded
a full pallet of full bottles into, waited a while and out came
pasteurized beer!!! WOW! However, they only pasteurized
bottled beers that were marked for export, not for local
distribution. Same thing with their sodas.

When I was still bottling my homebrew, I would sterilize the
caps in iodine, never had a problem. Although I have heard
that sterilizing the O2 caps with a water based solution isn't
good....

I think I have a solution:

Why not just move over to kegging, and have a few Growlers
on hand when you want to take beer to a friends house?

Prost!
Mark Weaver
mark at awfulquiet.com ( please use this address to reply to)

Lee Menegoni wrote:

>"I'm wondering if anyone has asked a micro or a major on how they clean
>theirs. I have askedand this 1 (one) micro said that they didn't. They dump
>them right out ofthe freshly opened box and cap them without cleaning any
>of them."
>This is what I have observed at the numerous micros I have toured. They
>dump boxes of caps directly into a bin in the the bottling machine.
>Home brewers have the problem of not knowing how the caps have been
>handled prior to purchase and the possibility that they were exposed to
>dust, especially grain dust in an HB shop.



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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:18:30 -0700
From: Troy Hager <thager at bsd.k12.ca.us>
Subject: Lager Starters

Fellow HBDers,

I am going to do my first lager and was wondering about the starter. I have
heard that you want to ferment the starters at the same temp that the wort
will be fermented at. I have also heard that a lager takes a lot longer to
ferment than an ale.

Two questions:

1. Do you keep all of the steps of your starters at the same temp that you
will keep your primary?

2. Do lager starters take longer than ale starters. How much longer?

Thanks! Private emails are fine.


 -Troy 




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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:29:25 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: draught question/Guinness head 

>>>>> "BrewInfo" == BrewInfo  <brewinfo at xnet.com> writes:

    BrewInfo> I'm *pretty* sure that Guinness head is mostly CO2 also,
    BrewInfo> but it's not based upon any science

Also no science, but experience: I can get a Guinness-like head (big
head with "falling bubbles" effect and a long-lasting creamy head
remaining) by overpressured CO2 dispense from a keg through a simple
cobra tap.  I "know" there's no (or very very little) nitrogen inside
my keg.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:21:47 -0500 
From: SClassification at DOC.STATE.AL.US
Subject: cleaning caps and bottles

John Simonetta posts this about the need for cleaning.

"My homebrew shop sells them in small quantity, prepackaged bags.  I 
think from now on, no boiling, and handle the crown from the top.  Thanks, 
Rob, for cutting a step out of my process!"


Reality check!  How do you think the caps got in the prepackaged bags?  I
hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've toured the warehouse of two big
brewing wholesalers  and they repackage  items like these themselves (just
like your homebrew shop probably does).  Both just have a corner  in the
warehouse with employees  moving malt, caps, chemicals, etc. from large bags
to small bags.  No clean rooms with hoods, though they do wear hairnets.

As for the multible posts about sanitizing bottles in the oven.  Why?  Seems
like it would take  a lot of time to load and unload, time to heat it up and
cool it down...  Have you ever tried a bottle tree with a rinser?  Quick and
easy, in the time you would use to load the oven you could have all your
bottles sanitized and ready for filling.  The tree is also a great way to
store 80 clean bottles waiting on the next bottling day.  I too said, "$35
for a piece of plastic?  I can make one myself and the dishwasher works
fine."  Having to bottle a batch at the shop one day without the dishwasher,
I broke one out of the box and am now converted.


Kim Thomson
ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew
Birmingham, AL


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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:35:48 -0400
From: Matt Birchfield <peridot at usit.net>
Subject: Need a diacetyl rest for Imperial Stout?

Hi All,

Last weekend I brewed about 8.5 gallons of Imperial Stout (SG 1.090). 
Everything went well, pitched a gallon starter of White Labs Irish Ale
Yeast.  Within about 3 hours the fermentation started going fast ...
real fast!  Within 12 hours the top blew off the air lock.  I did
manage to keep the temperature under 78 degrees with location and a
water bath/wet towels.

I have read many references to the need for diacetyl rests for barley
wines and other strong beers but never for a stout ...

Do I need to do one with this Imperial Stout?  If so, how long?

Thanks for the advice!

Matt
Blacksburg, VA


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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:12:33 -0700 
From: "Sandlin, Jonathan Mark - BUS" <SANJM304 at bus.orst.edu>
Subject: cleaning sanke kegs?

I am curious about how commercial breweries clean their sanke kegs after
use.  Is there a similar way that I can clean mine at home?  Obviously there
is no way to "scrub" the insides.  Thank you for your help!

Jon Sandlin
Corvallis, OR




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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:22:20 -0400
From: Matt Brooks <mabrooks at erols.com>
Subject: Calcium Phosphate Precipitation

In HBD 3022 AJ bounces back with some compelling info which holds
true....to some degree....

>I can't agree wth Matt Brooks that hydroxyapatite does not precipitate
above pH 11. pH 11 is not a magic >number.

Your right it is not a magic number and again I said that hydroxyapatite
does not precipitate below pH 11.0 not above (probably a typo on your
part).  I retract this statement to a point, phosphate does not fully
precipitate out as Hydroxyapatite below pH 11.0.  If you are trying to
precipitate out significant concentrations of the PO4 in a water you had
better get the pH up above 9.0 to get any appreciable results, or better
yet, take the pH up to 11.0 (with CaOH2) where you will have all the OH
necessary to precipitate out all of the PO4.  Anything less then pH 9.0
will likely not do the trick, some will form but not much....more on
this later....

>The reaction is equivalent based as are all reactions - there just
aren't any that aren't.

True again, compounds form on an equivalent per equivalent basis but you
cannot excpect to add x number of moles of PO4 and X number of moles of
Ca and get an equal amount of hydroxyapatite formation, (hence it is not
a direct equivalent per equivalent reaction, as many others are) other
factors apply like the existance of hydroxyls to complete the compound.
If you added 10 meq (milliequivalents) of Ca and 10 meq of PO4 would you
get hydroxyapatite formation, perhaps, but only to the extent of how
many equivalents of OH were present (related to pH), so if you only had
say 2 meq of OH available in the solution (at typical water pHs there is
very little OH present to begin with) that will be the limiting factor
for hydroxapatite formation.  So say you added Ca in the form of CaOH2.
Well you say, look at all the OHs attached to this compound surely I
will get alot of hydroxyapatite....not really as the Ca you are adding
to the water will react with the "excess alkalinity" (remember this term
as it plays an important role also) to form calcium carbonate, so you
must add enough lime to account for the alkalinity plus the amount
required for the phosphate precipitation.  By now your system pH is
going to be quite high (>9.0) and you will have to do some sort of pH
adjustment to get things back to where you want them.

>the solution is super saturated with respect to hydroxyapatite and it
will precipitate if a seed crystal or
>other mechanism is present.

This may be more important than you think, especially when it comes to
hydroxyapatite formation, smaller particles are more soluble then larger
ones and it takes quite a bit of time to get hydroxyapatite to form to
begin with, this is known as an induction period.  This induction period
has been shown to be extremely long for hydroxyapatite formation
(several hours, according to Snoeyink and Jenkins, p.303  in "Water
Chemistry", Wiley Press, 1980.).  This induction period may be
significantly reduced by adding a "seed" to the water to provide
nucleation growth, however this seed will need to be in the form of
hydroxyapatite and hence does not seem likely that your typical
homebrewer will have some on hand, or will want to put it in his mash to
begin with.

> This is why the solubility of carbonates and phosphates decrease with
pH and why we can get them out >of solution by raising pH.

I thought we were discussing the topic of too low of a mash pH being a
problem.  If pH depression is the problem wouldn't this relate to
cabonates and phosphates wanting to go into solution instead of
precipitating out?


>but this is a little tricky, is use the solubility product of apatite
to compute the amount that will precipitate >and the pH at equilibrium.
You use numerical techniques to solve for the pH which satifies both the
>solubility product limit and the charge neutrality criterion. It
becomes even trickier if you try to consider >the other forms of apatite
so that in practice it's not worth doing (for phosphate - do it all the
time for >carbonate).

Bingo...the optimum pH for hydroxyapatite precipitation is directly
related to the the point where the K(s) is the lowest.  This is
certainly the way to go, perhaps a pC-pH digram would also come in
handy!

>Matt doesn't think phosphate precipitates in brewing to the point where
it plays a significant role and >hopes that this thread doesn't evolve
into one which has little relevance to brewing. Phosphates do
>precipitate in brewing

Proof of this is where?????

>and the fact that they do so is extremely relevant for it is their
precipitation which we use to control mash >pH.

What happened to the Carbonate Buffering system????

>The whole concept of residual alkalinity is based on the extent to
which respectively calcium and >magnesium precipitate phosphate thus
releasing hydrogen ions. Put gypsum into water which is free of
>phosphate and there is no change in pH. Put it into mash and the pH
drops. If this isn't from phosphate >precipitation a lot of brewers have
been laboring under a false impression for a long time.

There are other compounds that may form....see below....Correct me if I
am wrong here, but the water system on our planet is based on the
Cabonate buffering system not the Phosphate buffering system.  In light
of this, the fact remains that HPO4 is very much involved in determining
the total alkalinity of a mash, (drinking waters have very relatively
little phosphte present so it does not play a major role in alkalinity
determination there).  The fact that the pH rapidly drops in a water
after crushed grains are added may be due In Small Part to the binding
of PO4 as Ca3(PO4)2 or perhap some hydroxyapatite (but only to the
extent that it is given time to form....hours?) but isnt the bottom line
the availability of bicabonate or carbonate in the water to buffer
against such changes...... Lets look at a pC-pH diagram for the
carbonate buffering system, at pH =7.0 there is, as you may have
guessed, exactly 10(-7) Moles (uppercase on the -7) thats .0000001 Moles
of OH and .0000001 Moles of H present.  (If you are forming
hydroxyapatite you probably wont be forming much, unless you add some
OH).  This pC-pH diagram will also show the relative concentrations of
various species of carbonate (H2CO3, HCO3, and CO3) and how those
concentrations vary with pH.

As this topic has progressed the original posts seemed to have gotten
set aside as we have delved into the chemisrty behind it all,  I believe
it started with the infamous Al K, and Dave B.  talking about pH drop
resulting from hydroxyapatite formation, then someone posted about
concerns of not having enough PO4 for their yeast to grow.

As for the former, I believe you need to ask yourself if the water you
use to brew with has enough carbonate buffer capacity (i.e. alkalinity
in the form of bicarbonate (HCO3) or depending on your water pH
carbonate (CO3)  alkalinity) to resist the drop in pH you notice when
you mash in your grains?  How much alkalinity should I have you ask,
well it depends on the amount of "acid" (H+) you are generating when you
mash in.  Acid formation can be due in part from calcium phosphate
formation (because as you remove phosphates you liberate Hydrogens) but
I believe there are other factors at play here.  These factors may well
include Calcium hydrogen phosphate (CaHPO4) and Calcium dihydrogen
phosphate Ca(H2PO4)2 dissociation???? the pK(so) of these is very small
and I believe they are likely to play a significant role when there is
not enough OH (or time) available to promote hydroxyapatite formation.

As for the latter, I dont think a brewer could precipitate out a
significant amount of phosphate (unless he was trying to) that would
affect yeast growth, for the reasons discussed previously.

Bottom line....

Some tests need to be done and I will take it upon myself to do these
tests, using laboratory grade equipment and waters of differing chemical
composition.

Will post results in the near furure to those interested....?

Matt B.
Northern, VA.



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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:26:54 -0500 (CDT)
From: jgibbens at umr.edu
Subject: Cleaners for stainless steel?

Does anyone know what the brewing industry uses to clean stainless steel 
fermenters?  I'm looking for a readily available caustic that won't leave 
a residue and can be used to clean areas that are inacessible to scrubbing.

Joe Gibbens


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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:59:11 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: More from a Plastered Home brewer and Bullet Autoclaves

Bob Sheck writes: "  I would like to get _ALL_ my calcium from Beer! .  .
 ."

Hmmm, what's this I've read about "Stone Beer" and Square Stone Fermentation
Vats?  Could be that your brew is already in production?

Jerry Luck wrote: "While I have no help to offer, I would like to suggest
some possible
>names for the final product:

>     Plaster of Pilsner / of Porter
>     Off the Wall Ale
>     Sheetrock Stout .  .  ."

Thanks Jerry . . . from several private postings by home brewers who
resorted to Plaster of Paris and produced "Off the Wall Ale"  I'm not alone!

Other home brewers will be glad to know that I've purchased sufficient food
grade calcium sulfate for future brews . . .Now where did I put that bag?

To the consortium, I'd like to apologize for the tongue in cheek comment
about autoclaves and pressure cookers (both of which are wet heat systems)
and accomplish the same end - "Sterilization".   However, thermophiles still
exist and the spores can survive incredible dry heat temperatures.  If
sanitation is all that's needed, just rinse with potable water after a
rigorous cleaning.  Let the log numbers of the existing organisms control
the small number beer spoilage organisms.

As for Joy"T"Brew Homestead brews, I'll continue to use idophor or Star San
as a final no rinse technique for bottles and caps.  At least there's
adequate scientific information to demonstrate that these sanitizers, when
used properly, reduce beer spoilage organisms to manageable levels.    I'll
continue to use my "wet heat" pressure cooker to sterilize yeast propagation
accessories and starter worts.  Hmmm, I've saved $25,000 of the USED price
of an autoclave . . . maybe I can purchase some decent brewing equipment
with the savings?

Back in Virginia (Home) joytbrew at halifax.com and have cut a path to the
front door through the two month old spring weeds.  Now I have to find my
brewing equipment.





Bob Sheck

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see
us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/
 - ---------------------------------------------------------------
//If you really support our troops, keep them out of KOSOVO!//
 - ---------------------------------------------------------------





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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:58:41 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Jeremy explains sterilization to Joy

I wrote " Subject: Brew Bottle Baking

> Ever wonder why microbiologists invented an autoclave?
>
> Ever wonder what the difference is between "dry heat" and "wet heat"
> sterilization?

Jeremy replied:

"liquids boil at a certain temperature and don't get any hotter.  Water
boils at a temperature too low to sterilize.  Dry goods may be sterilized
by high heat at 1 atm since they will heat past the boiling point of water.
Liquid media will not.  If you are suggesting something wrong with bottle
baking I don't understand the argument."

Joy replies: " Your premise that water cannot exceed 212 degrees Fahrenheit
is absurd!  Think about it.  Water is seldom boiled at one atmosphere due to
weather conditions and elevation throughout the United States.  Possibly the
250 degree temperature inside my pressure cooker with water and the air
exhausted is a myth created by scientists and the United States Department
of Agriculture Extension Service to make extra work for home canning
efforts?  The extension Service tested home pressure cookers in the past to
assure that the pressure gauge and the internal temperature reached
sterilization temperatures.

Think temperature, water vapor devoid of air, 15# psi, and the boiling point
of water in the enclosed "pressure cooker" environment.

You haven't yet convinced me that dry heat is any better than a clean bottle
rinsed with a properly prepared sanitizer solution and drained dry or rinsed
with potable water.

> Ever wonder why many home brewers use a pressure cooker for
> sterilization?

For sterilizing liquids and objects resistant to 250F but not a lot higher.
My oven can hold ~90 bottles--can your pressure cooker?

Jeremy, does your technique terminate heat resistant spores and
thermophiles?  You may have revolutionized the entire food industry and the
medical accessory sterilization industry. :)

                                       Joy"T"Brew

*********************************************************




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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:11:29 -0400
From: joytbrew at halifax.com (Joy Hansen)
Subject: Idophor Sanitizing Solutions Revisited

I'd like to appologize to the consortium concerning my assertion that the
12.5 ppm idophor solutions would take a considerable time to sanitize
equipment.

I returned to Virginia this weekend and opened the booy by George J. Fix and
Laurie A. Fix "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques" and reviewed the chapter
on Sanitation, page 114.  I sure got it wrong.  The five minute contact time
for the 12.5 ppm solution is (Dvalue) 5 times 3 is 15 minutes and not the 60
minutes I guessed at!  While the 25 ppm solution required 9 minutes to
achieve the same sanitation level.

Again I apologize for presenting unsubstantiated opinion as fact to the
consortium.

The mentioned reference text is a valuable resource and should be on the
list of "Must Read" for home brewers.  The simplist way to sift science from
opinion.  I'm somewhat surprised that I didn't receive a single reply that
stated simply that I'd not remembered the text properly.  Must be that the
Fix text is not widely read by home brewers.

Ciao,




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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:35:13 -0700
From: Jack Schmidling <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Pivo is Polish for peer

From: "Kris Hansen" <HanseKW at dhfs.state.wi.us>

"As a linguist and Russian speaker I had to point out to some 
of the more serious brewers (Mr. Burley) that Pivo is the 
Russian word for "beer"....

As a point of interest, when our supplier delivers a load of
rollers for MM's, the go-fer that does all the work is a Pole
who speaks not a word of English.  His reward for a job well
done is always a big glass of the World's Greatest Pivo.  Not
sure how it is spelled in Polish but pivo is what he wants.

js
- -- 
     Visit our web site:  http://user.mc.net/arf
  ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK:  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm




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Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:31:44 -0700 
From: "Kuhl, Brian S" <brian.s.kuhl at intel.com>
Subject: RE: Legalized Homebrew

Paul Gatza wrote in part:
    Although we have done limited lobbying in the past, the new status
allows us to lobby without restriction. July 1 is not only the day of
our new tax status, it is also the effective date for legalized
homebrewing in Idaho. As of this writing, the states of Alabama, Iowa,
Kentucky, Mississippi, Ohio, Oklahoma and Utah still prohibit
homebrewing. 
I respond:
     From what little I have read from Idaho law, homebrewing was not
illegal. Homebrewing was just not statutorily recognized. A subtle
difference but an important one. In the other states listed, is homebrewing
illegal or just not statutorily recognized? Perhaps the states where it is
actually illegal should more effort be focused. 
It bothers me that so much effort was put into something that technically,
was not illegal. This is especially bothersome in a "free" country. A
country where you must be told, not only what you cant do, but what you can
do.
By the way, does illegal homebrew taste better that legal homebrew?
Cheers to ya,
Brian Kuhl


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Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 23:13:34 -0400
From: "Ludwig's" <dludwig at us.hsanet.net>
Subject: Upside-down Converted keg, SHMS update 

Howdy. Has anyone done a keg conversion by cutting out the bottom of the
keg and used the existing top fitting as a drain? Seems I recall some
talk about doing that a while back in the HBD. I have three half barrels
I'm working on. The boil pot has gotten the standard treatment. The
other two; one for the HLT and the other for the Mash Tun, I'd like to
cut out the bottoms and use the standard big fitting for a flush
drain(flush as in high output of rinse water) so I can clean the barrels
in place. I'm thinking about getting a local machine shop to make a
couple of adapters that would insert into the opening and secure with
the standard o-ring and spring clip. The exiting end would have a large
pipe thread for attachment of a large drain pipe (~1 inch ID, maybe).
Anything commercially available that would work?

BTW, I've completed a Stamp based controller for the SHMS. Haven't done
a real mash yet but the test water mash went real well. I've now gotten
sidetracked into an electric heat conversion of my HLT so that my next
brew will be done in the basement, though the current weather here makes
for some kickass outdoor brewing. Oh well. I will be updating my website
soon with details of the controller and finally, maybe put something in
the pump house section. 
Cheers!

Dave Ludwig
Flat Iron Brewery
http://www.us.hsanet.net/user/dludwig/index.htm
SO MD


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Date: 5 May 99 21:56:20 MDT (Wed)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: malting 101?

Can someone point me at some info for malting on a very small scale?

I know the basics--get the barley moist enough to germinate, stir it around
and keep it from getting moldy, watch the sprouting, dry it and roast it.
So much for principles, but what I want to do is malt a small amount, in
the 2-digits-of-pounds range, using perhaps a bunch of shallow pans.  I'm
looking for things like germination time, drying temp, roasting temp, and
times...

Why?  Well, why not?  I asked a neighbor about brewing barley and he came
back with about 15 lb of seed barley, 2-row, from another neighbor who
sells to a local brewer (guess who:).  I planted a bunch for another part
of the experiment, but I've got enough left to try a first experiment at
malting.  The real "why?" is "because I need to keep learning as long as
I'm alive" and since this is an area in which I have no experience, it
would seem hard _not_ to learn something.

Email replies might be a good idea since this is off in the fringe, but
post if it makes sense.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA


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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 13:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: cburns at jps.net (Charley Burns)
Subject: MCAB Prizes

Any winners receive any yeast or malt yet? I got hops, but nothing else.

Charley



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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:16:38 -0400 
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: re: ring around the porter

	As for the ring around the porter bottles, please post your
ingredients and process information.  I have had harmful rings and innocent
rings around the bottle.  For instance I've still got a few bottles of a 1
year old Mint Chocolate Stout that I'm drinking which has a very distinctive
white ring around the bottle.  Ever batch of beer that I've made using cocoa
ended up with the same innocent white ring around the bottle top.  The batch
that went bad had a more translucent looking ring which over time seemed to
form a "cloudy" kind of layer at the top of the bottle and each bottle got
worse with time indicating an infection.  Your ring could also be from some
ingredient you are using that you've never used before.  It is very hard to
say what the ring is from without more info on your ingredients and process.
Please post again if you find out what it is or want to supply more info.
   John Penn


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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:24:42 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Plaster of Paris

Frank Timmons doubts Dan Listermann's claim that there are
iron filings in Plaster of Paris.

Whether or not there are is a very moot point, IMO.  I cannot
for the life of me figure out why someone would knowingly and
willingly put a non certified food-grade substance like this 
into their beer.  It seems to me to be sheer lunacy.

Spend the extra nickle and buy the stuff that's made for beer.
It isn't very expensive at all.  I really, really am racking
my brain trying to figure out why someone would do this ...

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/


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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:33:19 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: clear Weizen

I have to agree with Peter A Ensminger about the common misconception
that Hefeweizen must be hazy.  In the two years I lived in Germany
and drank the stuff on an almost daily basis, I don't think I've 
ever seen one that wasn't crystal clear until the yeast got
disturbed from the bottom.  And I actively sought out new Hefeweizens
that I'd never tried before.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://www.nortelnetworks.com/


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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:42:05 -0400
From: woodsj at us.ibm.com
Subject: IPA Recipe - Too much Hops ? 



Looking for a new recipe and am a borderline hophead.  Looking at several IPA
recipes, particularly "Sister Star of the Sun"....many awards....it has a heavy
hop schedule of 3 ozs Chinook for 60 mins, 2 ozs EKG for 15 mins, 2 ozs Fuggles
while chilling, then dry hop in the keg.  I've tried other recipes with lighter
hop schedule and they seem to come out very bitter and have a real bite.  By my
calculations this comes out to approx 55 HBU's, a big beer !  I'm wary of 3 ozs
for the bittering hop, but then it calls for 13 lbs of grains. (5 gal recipe)

Anyone have the same concern ?  How much hop flavor would be lost/added if some
hops were moved to a flavoring hop say for 30 mins in the boil ?  Anyone have
suggestions ?

If I could clone the Breckenridge IPA it would become the staple in my keg !!!
Can anyone help with a recipe ?


Jeff Woods
Camp Hill, PA
(just down the street from Jeff Beinhour of the Yellow Breeches Brewery)




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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 08:53:46 -0500 
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: re:  lifting converted keg kettles

Don,
I generally brew outside, by myself, using a converted keg boiler and a
propane burner.  The way I handle the problem is to first run off my sparge
into a grant (a holding tank), then transfer that to my boiling kettle in
liftable increments.  My boiling kettle is on top of the propane burner,
which is on top of three cinder blocks.  My propane burner is the sort with
a ring for the base, so its very stable and the height allows me to open up
the ball valve and drain directly into my carboy after chilling (I use an
immersion chiller).  This sort of setup should still give you enough height
to use your counterflow chiller, but you will need to set it on some sort of
stand in front of the boiler.


Paul Kensler
Plano, TX



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Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:01:34 -0500
From: Richard Stueven <gak at beerismylife.com>
Subject: Free bottles (De Pere, Wisconsin)

Hey there!

If you need bottles, I've got 'em.  More than 21,000 "Chuck's
Famous Ale" returnable longnecks are headed for the recycling
bin next week.  You're invited to come take as many as you can
carry before they go.  They're all in need of a good cleaning,
but the price is right:  free!

Stop by Egan Brewing (330 Reid Street, De Pere WI) during normal
business hours and ask for me.  The bottles are in the back of
the brewery, right by the loading dock.

have fun
gak

- -- 
Richard Stueven                                  gak at beerismylife.com
Egan Brewing Company                               De Pere, Wisconsin
Beer Is My Life!                              http://beerismylife.com
BreweriesOnTheWeb http://home.earthlink.net/~beerismylife/brewwww.htm


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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:06:18 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Lifting converted-keg kettles

"Donald D. Lake" <dake at gdi.net> asked for help in figuring a safe way for
two people to lift 11 gallons of hot wort.  I tried replying directly, but
it bounced - user unknown.

The safest way to do this is to use a pump.  The next safest is to raise
the burner and conduct the boil at a height that will allow you to gravity
transfer.  Lifting 11 gallons of boiling liquid, even with help, sounds
like asking for trouble.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.




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Date: Thu,  6 May 1999 10:23:34 EDT
From: "Rick Theiner " <Logic at mail.skantech.com>
Subject: Sanitizers and Oxidizers

Al K. asks: 

"What are the relative oxidising strengths of bleach solution at 200ppm 
free chlorine, 12.5ppm of titratable iodine iodophor solution and the 
working solution of a percarbonate-based sanitiser such as OneStep?  
Maybe it's a "lesser evil" issue? " 

Actually, it's not the oxidative power of sanitizers that provide 
effectiveness-- is that what you're asking?  I'll mention that the
mechanisms of all those mentioned are different, and none really rely 
on oxidation.  But maybe that's not the issue... 


If you're just wondering about the oxidizing strength in terms of
oxidation-reduction potential, I can put a probe into the solutions and 
see what happens. 

Rick Theiner 




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Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:03:42 -0500
From: Andrew Ager <andrew-ager at nwu.edu>
Subject: Upgrading the Brewery, advice wanted

Howdy all,

I'm beginning to think about upgrading my brewing system for the fall
season, looking to eliminate two things that tick me off without fail:
bottling and siphoning.

I'm currently using a 5-gal. Gott to mash in a 5-gal. pot for boiling, and
a 5-gal. bucket for the HLT.  I've got a friend who's more than likely
going to give up brewing, so I'm going to inherit 2 more Gotts (1 10-gal.
and one 7-gal.).

Now, since I live in Chicago, and in a 3rd floor apartment, I've pretty
much decided that inside is where I will continue to brew.  However, if
anyone has advice on how to set up a pump to run hot water to various
places in Gott coolers, I'm more than willing to listen, or be directed to
clear WWW descriptions.  My main drawback is that I know squat about
electrical wiring, and only slightly more about plumbing.  Welding is
right out.

For the new kettle, I'm probably going for something in the 8-10 gallon
capacity, depending on the eventual cost of setting up other stuff.

I'm going to build a basic wooden stand for the HLT, since it currently
perches precariously on an empty cat litter bucket on top of the
refrigerator (which has a slant to the top).  Not the best situation.  A
cooler will be the HLT.

the mash tun will remain a cooler, although probably bigger one, and
including the now-classic "BB Snake" addition to the Phil's Phloating
setup.

Finally, I'm looking to spend no more than $250 upgrading, including the
cost of a pump. That's for the actual brewing system, not for stuff like
kegs, CO2 cylinders, etc.

So:

1) Is this reasonable?

2) What the heck kind of outlet to these pumps run off of?  Regular
outlets?  My apartment does have totally modern wiring, so that's a plus.
Lots and lots of outlets, too.

3) How well to Gott's receive drilling extra holes in them?  What do you
recommend for this type of thing?

4) If I wanted to HERMSify a series of coolers running off of one kettle,
would that be possible on the cheap?

Hopefully, this will make the whole process a lot easier, and more fun.
I'm also going to invest in one or two conicals (plastic variety) and a
fridge.

thanks!
Andy Ager 		Beer Geek, Beer Judge
Chicago, IL		Homebrewer Ordinaire
- --Chicago Beer Society -- Silver Medal Homebrew Club of the Year, 1998 --



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---