---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  RE: magnetic stirrers (John_E_Schnupp)
  all grain brewing ("Earl & Karen Bright")
  AHA First Round Results (Mark Tumarkin)
  re : Primetab ("Alan McKay")
  European Caps ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  Cats and "catty" (Nathan Kanous)
  Hardware question ("Steve Milito, M.D.")
  Ruddles Best Bitter and Stone's Best Bitter. (Brad McMahon)
  Anybody have a recipe that clones Corona? ("J. Doug Brown")
  metric (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Ruddles Best Bitter and Stone's Best Bitter (Jeff Renner)
  Re:   (Some Guy) and the 2000 AHA Home Brewers' Conference (Scott Abene)
  Re: Outside Burners (Pvrozanski)
  offensive remarks/ mag stirrers/ yellow hops/ water pH (fwd) (ALAN KEITH MEEKER)
  Jethro's volume of diacetyl (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: HERMS Piping (RobertJ)
  Magnetic stirrers ("Mercer, David")
  It's the water...? (Jeffry D Luck)
  False Bottom (Thomas S Barnett)
  Burners (Andrew Marsh)
  Beer laws (John Wilkinson)
  HBD Bouncer? (John Wilkinson)
  Pickled Hop Shoots (beanish)
  stirring ?= aeration (Scott Murman)
  Dialectic corrosion between SS/Copper/Alu? ("Alan McKay")
  RE: HERMS Piping (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Compatible with hops (BrewInfo)
  Bottling (William Frazier)
  RE: Is it just me....or (John Wilkinson)
  Cats, Skunks and still more Cats! ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Beer Festival (Scott Johnson)
  Cats (William Frazier)


Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

2000 MCAB Qualifiers: Spirit of Free Beer! Competition 5/22/99
(http://burp.org/SoFB99); Oregon Homebrew Festival 5/22/99
(http://www.mtsw.com/hotv/fest.html); Buzz-Off! Competition 6/26/99
(http://www.voicenet.com/~rpmattie/buzzoff)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 02:18:48 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: RE: magnetic stirrers

>I really would like to build a huge monger to put my carboy on top of and
>slowly stir the fermenter (bye bye to CO2 poisoning), and see what happens.

I've tried that and it didn't work too well.  The problem is that the glass
on the bottom of the carboy (center) is quite thick and really doesn't
allow great coupling between the magnet and stir bar.  I was trying to
use a 3 gallon carboy as I was making a starter for a lager.

I used to use and erlenmeyer flask (100 ml) but found it to be insufficient,
especially for larger starters.  I then went with a 2000 mL flask and
still had problems with it.  The problem with an e-flask is that as the
flask tapers the volume gets significantly less and this pushes the yeast
further up the neck.  I now use a 4L wine jug, which is great for ale
starters but on the small side for lagers, which is why I was trying to
get my 3 gallon carboy to work with my stirrer.

I typically don't allow/force the yeast to floc until the very end, this
way I'm not continually selecting the most flocculant (least attenuating)
yeast as I step up the starter.  I just continue to add starter wort, in
the necessary steps, until I reach the desired volume.  At this point,
after the yeast is finished, I stop the stirrer and chill it.  On brewday,
I rack off the spent starter and add about a pint of fresh starter to
revive the yeast.

I use an aquarium pump and a HEPA filter to aerate the yeast.  I got my
filter from William's (std disclaimer) but you can probably get them
anywhere.  I use a rubber stopper that has a fitting I made that allows
gas to flow in and out thru the same hole.  Depending upon the size of
your stopper, you may be able to *drill* a second hole (some time ago
there was a discussion about this, search the archives) and use one
hole as filtered air in and to the other attach a blowoff tube.

I'm very pleased with my stirrer.  I'm not sure if I get more or better
yeast but I have to noticed that lag times seem to be less.  At the very
least the stirrer is good to mix up the slurry on brewday.  I always had
a problem/concern about shaking the heck out of my flask to get the yeast
off the bottom, it never happened but I could always picture it slipping
and loosing the battle with gravity.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 06:16:00 -0400
From: "Earl & Karen Bright" <denali at epix.net>
Subject: all grain brewing

I am attempting my first batch of bear using all grains, (no extracts) hjow
long do I steep the grains for ?  and at what temperature?  Please help!!!! 
  THANKS!


Earl and Karen Bright
denali at epix.net


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 06:39:49 -0400
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: AHA First Round Results

Kim Thompson asks:
"Has anyone received their results from the AHA first round in Kansas
City?  A few of us here sent in entries and haven't received a reply.
Must not have been the winning beers they were in our comp.?"

I haven't recieved any notification either (I sent mine to the first
round in Tallahassee, FL), so I went and looked at the AHA website and
found the following:

"Second-round
entries must be received at the appropriate site
between Monday, June 14, and 5 p.m. on Friday,
June 18, 1999. Notification will be mailed byMay
21 with additional instructions if your entry advances to the second
round."

If they mail it be May 21 (this coming Friday), we should get it
sometime early the following week - maybe?? I quess that gives me time
to get my 2nd round entries mailed off in time (might as well be
optimistic, eh?).

Pat Babcock mentions holding the Year 2000 convention in Detroit so we
can meet him and be convinced he's not just some sort of AI cyber
personality. Sounds all right by me, but does that mean you're not going
to Kansas City, Pat? Anyone else going? I'd love to get the chance to
share a few beers with any HBDrs who'll be there, let me know.

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL





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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:35:58 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: re : Primetab

Greetings,

I haven't used them yet, but I got some "demo" samples from the
manufacturer.  They arrived late last week and I plan to use them
in my next brew to review for my webiste.  Without trying them,
I have to say that I think the idea is one that is a long time
coming.  I'm very suprized that nobody thought of this before.
I'd be tempted to bottle-prime my beer again if these things
work as well as they should.

The first thing I noted was that not a single tablet was broken,
and there was absolutely no sugar-dust inside.  That's actually 
pretty impressive considering the size of the bags.  I had thought
there would be a few broken ones - but nope.

In the instructions the manufacturer says you can avoid syphoning
to the bottling bucket.  I really wouldn't recommend that since
you'd likely end up with more sediment in your bottles.  

Aside from this, though, I'm putting my money on them being
a winner.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
http://www.magma.ca/~bodnsatz/brew/tips/


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:44:14 -0400
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <saunderm at vt.edu>
Subject: European Caps

Kim answers:

>1.  Zemo askes about caps for european champagne bottles.
>
>Homebrew Shops supplied by Crosby and Baker can order 29 mm caps that
>might fit and some handcappers have reversable jaws that will fit the
>champagne bottles.

Vintage Cellar at www.vintagecellar.com has them.  I don't know what the
price is, but you can ask at sales at vintagecellar.com.

Cheers!
Matthew in VA




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:44:07 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Cats and "catty"

Phil Yates appears to have found his beer "skunky" and attributed it to the
neighbors cat because in the UK and Australia (note his address) they don't
have skunks and talk about those odors / flavors as being "catty".  I bet
that if Dave Humes had noticed this (I didn't until Phil mentioned Mexican
beer) then he wouldn't have taken so much offense.  If anybody wants to
grab a "stink kitty" by the tail and swing it around, go for it.  Here is
one fairly clear example of a communication gap that exists in cyberspace.
No offense to anyone involved.  Now that I understand what Phil was
referring to, I find the whole thing just a little more funny.  We need
someone to ship Phil a "stink-O-gram" that allows him to understand what a
skunk really is like...if he still wants to swing one of them "kitties"
over his head....go for it.  Later.
nathan in madison, wi




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:10:13 -0400
From: "Steve Milito, M.D." <milito at radonc.musc.edu>
Subject: Hardware question



I am in the process of building a moderate capacity 3-tier brewing system. I
had a welder make the stand, and modify my kettles. I found three
inexpensive, high pressure, burners. I am now ready to finish my "master
piece".  Does anybody have any suggestion on the best way to hook up the
burners. The jets are 3/8" flare. I would like to design it so that the
burners have independent flow (needle valves), ball valves for on/off, but
only one regulator.  I reluctant to use compression fittings, because  I am
concerned about propane leaks. What is the best material for the tubing?
What types of fittings should I use? Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Best Regards,
SM



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:43:30 +0930
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Ruddles Best Bitter and Stone's Best Bitter.

>I am trying to brew facsimilies of Ruddles Best Bitter,
>and Stone's Best Bitter. 

>If anyone has a recipe, it would be greatly appreciated.



I have a recipe for Ruddles County, 
but not for Best Bitter.
Now, being that breweries tend to use the 
same ingredients albeit in different proportions
you would be looking at using:
Halcyon Pale Malt
Crystal Malt
Black Malt
Sugar.
Northdown hops
Challenger hops
Golding hops.

Brad McMahon


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:40:40 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Anybody have a recipe that clones Corona?

Hello,
  I bottle with Corona bottles and now that I am brewing would like to
try and make a Corona like beer.  I have checked various recipe books
and could not find any recipe that mentions a clone of Corona.  I am
interrested in serious replies, not mammilian, reptilian, etc
excretions.  Yes I did get a chuckle out of that Corona joke last week.

  Thanks
   Doug Brown
- -- 
       --------------------------------------------------------
      /       J. Doug Brown             Sr. Software Engineer  \
     <     jbrown at labyrinth.net            jbrown at ewa.com       >
      \ http://www.labs.net/jbrown       http://www.ewa.com    /
       --------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:33:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: metric

Bill Wright <AKGOURMET at aol.com> asked

>how many  ounces of liquid are in 19 feet of 1/2" tubing?

and earlier "Phil Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au> had written:

> why you guys didn't
>go metric years ago is beyond me

It does make you wonder.  That would be so much easier in metric.
Pi*r^2*l, all in metric units.  It would come out directly in volume units.
In English units you have to know there are 231 in^3 /gallon (128 oz), or
1.8 in^3/oz.

So since there are 228 inches in 19 feet,  [(228 in)*(3.14)*(.25)^2] / 1.8
= ~25 fl. oz.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:53:10 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Ruddles Best Bitter and Stone's Best Bitter

>"Roy E. Dawson" <dawsonandassociates at on.aibn.com> writes:

>I am trying to brew facsimilies of Ruddles Best Bitter, and Stone's Best
>Bitter. Can anyone advise me: 1) what causes the uniqueness of their
>flavour, as compared to other English bitters; 2) what types of malt,
>hops, and yeast do they use.

The CAMRA _Real Ale Almanac_, by Roger Protz (5th ed. 1977, ISBN
1-897784-67-8) is a great resource for this kind of quest.  Some breweries
are very explicit in what they reported, others less so.

"Ruddles Best Bitter OG 1037 ABV 3.7%  Ingredients:  Halcyon pale malt
(90%), crystal (1%), special brewing syrup (9%).  26 units color.  Bramling
Cross, Northdown, Fuggles and Goldings 91% whole hops; 9% Northdown hop
pellets.  35 units of bitterness."

Stone's Best Bitter (brewed by Bass in Sheffield):  "OG 1038, ABV 4.1%
Ingredients: cask ale malt, high maltose syrup.  13 units of color.
Challenger hops for bitterness, Goldings and Progress for aroma.  All whole
hops.  28 units of bitterness."

The fact that Stones has more alcohol than Ruddles for nearly the same OG
means it is more attenuated, suggesting that the syrup is more fermentable
than Ruddles.  In either case, the yeast will be of critical importance for
"the uniqueness of their flavour."  I don't know if anyone has either
brewery's yeast available.  Water treatment might be of some lesser
importance.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 07:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Abene <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:   (Some Guy) and the 2000 AHA Home Brewers' Conference 

just a side note... 

I was contacted today by the law office of Rookum, Steelem and
Robbum. They said that they were hired by someone Named Apache Unix
from the HBD.ORG group. 

They offered me a large cash amount to play the role of a Mister Pat
Babcock at the 2000 AHA Home Brewers' Conference. 

Hmmmm interesting... 

C'ya!

 -Scott Abene


===
ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT
Scott Abene <skotrat at mediaone.net>
http://skotrat.dynip.com/skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page)

"This Space Currently for Rent... Inquire within"
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:42:19 -0500
From: Pvrozanski at ra.rockwell.com
Subject: Re: Outside Burners

You hit the nail on the head as far as the advantages and disadvantages go.  I
ended up buying both types because of this.

I bought my 200.000btu Kajun Kooker first. I does a great job boiling water, and
yes it does sound like a 747, but it provides very uneven heat for mashing or
boiling wort. I paid around $48 for it. It brings 5 gallons to a boil in 15
minutes or less.

Recently I bought a low pressure cooker for boiling wort. It's 36,000btu and ran
me about $40. It has a cast iron burner which distributes the heat very evenly
and provides a good rolling boil.




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 11:22:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: ALAN KEITH MEEKER <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: offensive remarks/ mag stirrers/ yellow hops/ water pH (fwd)



- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Subject: offensive remarks/ mag stirrers/ yellow hops/ water pH


John Wilkins recently wrote:

>>>Subject: seriousness

>>>Some of us need to lighten up a bit.  After all, it is beer, not life and
>>>death.

>>>John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas

John, I realize that the dialog on the HBD of late has approached  Jerry
Springer levels but that is no call for  such OUTRAGEOUS statements such as
yours!  
__________________________________________________________________________
I've been using a mag stirrer this year for starters (and a barleywine!) and
am never going back. My starters now grow MUCH better - probably due to the
combined effects of aeration, constant rousing/mixing, and better elimination
of CO2. For a cap, I simply use a clean piece of aluminum foil very lightly
covering the mouth of the vessel. Go for larger surface:volume ratio for max
aeration. A volume of 1 liter of rich media grown to saturation should give
an adequate pitch for a 5 gallon ale volume (although Ray daniels and others
have pointed out that this may be as much as 10X lower pitch rate compared to
commercial rates).
___________________________________________________________________________
Yellow hop leaves: was just browsing a book on growing hops at my local
megalo-book seller last night. In the troubleshooting section they stated that
if the symptom is yellowing of the LOWER leaves of the plant then a Magnesium
deficiency is indicated.
____________________________________________________________________________
Water pH - the thread that wouldn't die!! At the risk of spurring on more
vituperative attacks between the chemical contingent here's some more water
data to ponder: 

Last year I did some quickie expts on water pH. This was a time when topics
like Ca treatments and boiling to eliminate carbonate were being discussed.
Opinions seemed a bit mixed, as did recommendations in some of the better
known (at least to me anyway) brewing texts. For instance, some references
claimed that merely boiling water before brewing with it would lower the pH.
Other sources stated that a certain amount of calcium would have to be present
in the water before boiling to eliminate carbonate and thus achieve a lowering
of the pH. In addition, many people/sources have advocated the addition of
some type of calcium containing salt to help bring about proper pH (aside from
the calcium benefit to the yeast and mashing amylases). The thread lately has
focused more on the interactions between calcium and phosphate(s) in the
mash but the carbonate issue still merits consideration. 

At any rate, after becoming confused by conflicting reports I did a little
science to try to straighten things out for myself (the value of using the
scientific method in brewing). A brief summary of what I found:

1) Merely boiling tap water (Baltimore tap water - pretty typical ionic
profile, can post if anyone's interested...) then allowing it to cool to 
room temp RAISED the pH by 1 pH unit. I believe this is most likely due to 
the degassing that occurs with boiling, therefore loss of CO2 which is in
equilibrium with carbonic acid/carbonate shifting the equilibrium. Indeed,
upon stirring the pH slowly equilibrated back to the starting pH (BUT, this
took SEVERAL HOURS!) 

2) Merely treating with CaSO4 (gypsum) did not change the pH significantly.
Subsequent boiling of this water RAISED the pH but only by 0.5 - 0.7 pH units
instead of 1 pH unit and there was now a brownish precipitate (presumably
CaCO3) formed. Again, following  stirring to aerate, the water's pH approached
the starting value over a period of several hours.

When I got these results I changed my water prep protocol. Before this I would
add about 5 grams or so CaSO4/5 gal water then boil thinking I was
accomplishing two goals - one, the elimination of chlorine and two,
elimination of carbonate to bring down the pH for mashing/sparging. My pilot
experiments indicated that, with respect to water pH, I was doing just the
opposite of what I'd intended!  Knowing what I do now this isn't really a
problem as far as the mash goes - as we've been discussing recently the mash
pH can pretty well set itself and this is apparently linked in some way to the
presence of phosphate from the barley (though the reactions are still a bit
unclear to me and the role of the phytase/phytate reaction seems to be getting
short shrift). It was the SPARGE that most concerned me. The way I was doing
it I was actually sparging with ALKALINE water (pH in the range of 8.5 -
9.0!!) which, as we all know, dogma states is a big no-no. 

So, my current regime is to make Ca additions (though I now use CaCl2 because
all the talk of possible harsh hop character due to sulphate had me losing
sleep), boil (primarily to eliminate chlorine and get water temp up for
mashing/sparging) then acidify to pH = 5.5-5.6 with Lactic Acid. When I've
checked my mash the pH is bang on at about 5.3-5.4 and my sparge stays below
6.0 all the way through so I'm now a happy camper. (An aside, Saw Fix & Fix's
recent book and in it they show a steep decrease of amylase activity on one
side of the pH curve but this is exactly the opposite of the behavior seen in
lab analysis of the purified enzyme, anyone know what's up with that?)   
			-----------------  
THE SKINNY: It appears that if you are counting on Ca additions + boiling to
lower your water pH it aint happening, especially if you are using the water
right away. Probably not a big concern in the mash but look out for that
sparge!
			-----------------


 -Alan Meeker
Baltimore, MD







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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 08:38:14 -0700
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Jethro's volume of diacetyl

> From: Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net>
> Subject: Is it just me....or
> 
> is Jethros "reports" always unreadibly formatted....?

It's not just you, nor is it just Jethro.

Please people: don't use tabs, check whether your mailer automatically wraps
text after you've formatted it, and *please* use a fixed-width font for
tables.

********************************************************************
> From: AKGOURMET at aol.com
> Subject: HERMS Piping

> Here's a question for the collective:  what's the formula for figuring the
> volume of a cylinder in fluid ounces ?  or to be more specific, how many
> ounces of liquid are in 19 feet of 1/2" tubing?

The volume of a cylinder (like any right shape) is the area of its end times
its length, in this case L X (radius^2) X pi.

19' X 12 in/ft X .25"^2 X pi = 44.8 cubic inches

I can only do the volume conversion in metric:
44.8 X 2.54^3 = 734 cc = 24.8 oz.

********************************************************************

> From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
> Subject: diacetyl mouthfeel
> 
> Dave Kerr asks if diacetyl could be responsible for an oily mouthfeel in
> a pFramboise. Diacetyl is often described as having a "slick" mouthfeel
> but I have never experienced that even with the high levels I've
> experimented with. How about other people?  

I experience slickness from high diacetyl in doctored beers, but only about
1/4 people in such tastings seem to perceive it that way.  These people
(like me) tend to have somewhat higher thresholds for the butter taste.
This is a QDA as I don't record these things quantitatively, but it has held
true through one tasting after I formulated the hypothesis.


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:35:04 -0400
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: HERMS Piping

Bill Wright asks:

Here's a question for the collective:  what's the formula for figuring the 
volume of a cylinder in fluid ounces ?  or to be more specific, how many 
ounces of liquid are in 19 feet of 1/2" tubing?
____

About 3 cups. .25" X .25" X 3.14 X 12" X 19' = 44.75 cubic inches X .017316
(ci/qt) = .775 qts or 24.8 oz.

Or if you don't know the length of the coil, just fill it with water, allow
to drain & measure how much is collected
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://www.pbsbeer.com


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 09:34:56 -0700
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Magnetic stirrers

Seeing as there have been several posts asking questions about magnetic
stirrers, I'll jump in with my observations. I have been using a stirrer for
about two years. This has been one of the most significant improvements I
have made to my brewing routine since moving to all-grain. I typically build
a starter using a 10P wort (made from DME) boiled in an Erlenmeyer flask.
Originally I sealed the top of the flask with a wad of cotton and an
aluminum foil cover when I boiled, but lately I've been leaving out the
cotton and just using a foil cover that extends down 2-3 inches from the top
of the flask. I oxygenate all my starter worts using O2 and a SS airstone
(never had a problem with infections that I know of) and use an airlock with
a #9 or #10 stopper depending on the flask size. I start stirring
immediately upon pitching. During the first 6 hours or so I figure the
constant stirring continually feeds more oxygen to the yeast from the O2
rich air inside the airlocked-sealed flask. After that it serves more to
drive CO2 out of the starter and keep the yeast in suspension. Generally, I
can build up to a 1.5L starter in a 2L flask* and, if necessary, feed that
more than once if I want even more slurry. I keep the stirrer going at a
moderate speed (enough to create a gentle whirlpool) and when I'm bored I
rev it up every now and then just to watch the fireworks in the airlock as
vodka goes spewing out the little hole on the plastic cap. I don't stop
stirring until the starter has fermented out and I want the slurry to settle
(usually about 3 days after pitching). In my experience, using a stirrer and
well-oxygenated wort produces prodigious amounts of yeast.

*The quantity of wort is yeast-dependent. If using a stirrer, do NOT try to
ferment 1.5L of wort in a 2L flask when using 3068 (Weihenstephan) yeast or
you will have a monumental mess the next day. Trust me on this. Even 1 liter
in a 2 liter flask needs to be watched carefully. Other yeast strains seem
to behave with a little more civility.


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Date: 17 May 1999 09:41:27 -0700
From: Jeffry D Luck <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: It's the water...?

I have a water question for you all.  

First off, I barely passed 1st quarter chemistry back at 
the 'U, and that was 20 years ago.  So I usually see posts
about calcium & phospherates and just page down.  If 
this question has been answered recently in HBD, I 
apologise for not noticing.  So here goes....

I usually boil my water the evening before brew-day.  When
it just starts to boil, it's clear, but after 5 minutes or so, it 
looks cloudy, as if I threw in an ounce or two of milk.  In the
morning after the water has cooled, it's clear again, but
as I pour it into the primary, there is some white sludge
(notice my command of chemical jargon here) at the bottom
of my holding tank.  

Having reached the conclusion that it looks yucky and 
therefore shouldn't go into my beer, I've congratulated
myself for pouring off 'clean' water.  (Don't snicker.)

Can anyone tell me what I've been so conciensously
avoiding in my brew?  Am I doing right to avoid the sludge
or am I missing some critical element?  My beer tastes
great, so I'm not too concerned about this, just curious.

BTW, The water here is pretty hard, but not so's you
can taste it.  Or at least I can't.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT - USA



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:11:44 -0500 (CDT)
From: Thomas S Barnett <barnets at mail.auburn.edu>
Subject: False Bottom

Hello all,
	My current brewing system employs a 15 gallon polarware pot with a
10 gallon Gott cooler.  Generally, i'll mix the water and grains in the
pot, bring to the desired temp. and transfer to the Gott cooler for
the main rest and sparging.  This system is very convenient for step mash
and/or decoction procedures.  However, i'm hoping to simplify it a bit
by avoiding the transfer(s) to the Gott cooler. With this in mind, i've
been considering a SS false bottom that fits directly in the pot. Does
anyone have any experience with these?  Any problems with stuck sparges?
Can step mashes still be done by adding heat, (via a propane source),
directly to the kettle, or is this false bottom intended for infusion
mashing?  Thanks.  Tom barnett.     



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:08:20
From: Andrew Marsh <amarsh at gmcl.bc.ca>
Subject: Burners 

A few questions on burners. I'm just starting to put together a system
using converted kegs for kettles.  I would like to get some opinions on the
type/make of burner and power output that is best suited for keg type
kettles.  The burners I have found range from 50 000 to 200 000 BTU and
come in various configurations from a complete unit with legs to just a
cast iron burner from a hot water heater.  I like the price of just the
burner but may not be such a bargain after I buy the regulator, hose, make
the stand, etc.  I would eventually like to have 2 or more burners to avoid
moving the kettles around so is a fabricated steel frame with hot water
tank burners somehow mounted a good system or are the complete units worth
the extra cost? Is 200 000 BTU's good to have or is it overkill and a waste
of propane?  If the complete unit with legs are the way to go, any
particular make?   I would like to try and find a Canadian supplier as
ordering would be easier without duty and exchange rates to mess around with.

Any info would be appreciated.  Private email OK.

Andrew Marsh


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:24:02 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: Beer laws

Steve Alexander writes of Ohio beer laws:

>What category of idiocy (or is it
>greed?) is needed in order to create such a convoluted complex and
>contradictory set of rules which in total appear to impose no purposeful
>order.?

I was in South Carolina recently and noticed that liquor stores seemed to
be only marked ABC, giving no hint as to their purpose.  Somehow, 
instinctively I guess, I thought these were liquor stores.  Actually,
someone had probably told me some time ago.  Anyway, these liquor stores
were not allowed to sell beer, only liquor and wine.  I mentioned to the
guy running one that they weren't the only odd ones, in Oklahoma liquor
stores could sell wine but not corkscrews.  The guy in S.C said they couldn't
either.  He could sell only liquor and wine, no magazines, corkscrews, mixers,
or anything else.  And in London the pubs I am familiar with have to close in
the middle of the afternoon.  But a guest at a hotel can drink there 24 hours.
There were even beer vending machines in the hall in one place I stayed.  Of
course, I could really burn up some bandwidth describing screwey alcohol laws
here in Texas.

I have about convinced my self that there is an international conspiricy to
screw up alcohol laws.  And people are wasting their time worrying about the
Tri-lateral Commission, or whatever it is, when there is a really dangerous
conspiricy afoot!  Maybe there should be a John Booze Society to publicize
this.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:29:16 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: HBD Bouncer?

Fred L. Johnson write:

>Since some folks in this place simply refuse to excercise restraint on their
>public behavior, perhaps it is time that the HBD hired a bouncer.

Uh oh, I don't like the direction this is taking.  Pat as Big Brother?

Don't say Steve Alexander didn't warn you.


John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 10:45:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: beanish at blarg.net
Subject: Pickled Hop Shoots

Jethro Gump gave a glowing review of the pickled hop shoots
from Puterbaugh Farms in a recent hbd.  As a happy customer
with no affiliation blah blah blah, I have to mention that
Puterbaugh farms is on the web at
http://www.hopsdirect.com/

We've been lucky enough to have the folks from Puterbaugh
Farms come to the St Patrick's Cascadia Cup homebrew competition
that my homebrew club (Cascade Brewers Guild, eastside Seattle)
sponsors every March.  They set up a nice display, with hop
vines, bales of loose hops, samples of pickled hops, etc.
We do put them on the other side of the room from the judging,
so that we don't find everything from cider to IPA to have
a fresh, floral hops aroma!
- --
Jeremy York
beanish at blarg.net


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 12:54:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: stirring ?= aeration


Several recent posts have commented about stir plates.  Just how much
O2 diffusion occurs when stirring?  My intuition tells me it's
negligible compared with forcing O2 into solution.  Stirring rouses
the yeast and forces excess CO2 out of solution, both of which cause
foaming, but I think you still need to perform oxygenation with some
other means.

The idea is to have 100% saturation when the yeast want to bud.  We
start with 0% since our wort has been pre-boiled by some means.  I
don't think stirring can quickly raise from 0% to 100%, and I doubt it
could make an appreciable dent even over time.

 -SM-


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:33:34 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: Dialectic corrosion between SS/Copper/Alu?


Hi there folks,

I've got a 17 US gallon Alu pot that I want to put a spigot into.  Do I have
to 
worry about dialectic corrosion between SS/Copper/Alu?  I'm looking at
a copper ball valve, and either copper or SS washers.

If it is a problem, what other options do I have?

thanks,
 -alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support				amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:23:51 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: HERMS Piping

>From: AKGOURMET at aol.com

>Here's a question for the collective:  what's the formula for figuring the 
>volume of a cylinder in fluid ounces ?  or to be more specific, how many 
>ounces of liquid are in 19 feet of 1/2" tubing?

I'm too lazy to calculate that, besides what about the curvature of the
coil, and what about dents and surface irregularities, etc.  We do not want
to worry the burley brewer with all this do we?? 

I would just measure out an exact gallon, then carefully fill the entire
coil, then measure what is missing from the gallon.

The flexible tubing you mentioned sounds like it's working alright for you.
I used rigid copper pipe for the input side of the pump, and used a short
piece of flexible tubing and cable clamps as couplings.  This allows about a
1/4 inch or so piece of flexible tubing subject to any low pressure or
vacuum forces.  The flexibility allows stresses on the pump housing to be
relieved, but the very small amount of tubing eliminates any problems with
suction collapse.  This is also a very easy and cheap way to get your
couplings.  

I think my HLT exchanger coil is about 15 foot long.  I have noticed that if
I rock the coil, the heat exchange goes much faster, same effect as when one
rocks the immersion chiller.  I setup a pump to circulate the hot liquor
around the coil and things went better also, but I wonder if that will cause
HSA in the hot liquor.  

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 15:42:46 -0500 (CDT)
From: BrewInfo <brewinfo at xnet.com>
Subject: Compatible with hops

Bill just planted hops and asks what plants might be compatible
with them.  I suggest coriander/cilantro.  Don't bother buying
seeds (too expensive)... just buy some bulk coriander and plant
that.  There are three benefits to planting coriander/cilantro
next to the hops:

1. the tiny flowers of the cilantro/coriander plants provide
hiding places for beneficial insects,

2. the cilantro can be used for making salsa, which goes well
with beer, and

3. you can brew with the coriander when it finally goes to seed.
Dry the seeds well and don't use them for several months (using
too-young coriander gives a rubbery aroma/flavour).

Al.

Al Korzonas, Lockport, IL
korz at brewinfo.com
http://www.brewinfo.com/brewinfo/


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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:44:13 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Bottling

The beer from the keg is always better than the bottled version of the same
recipe, even from the same batch.  Must be something about the secondary
fermentation products that build up during conditioning.  So, since I like
to have some bottled beer on hand I'm going to start filling by the
counterpressure method.  Hopefully, the bottled beer will taste as good as
the keg version.  I would appreciate input on the various types/brands of
counterpressure filling equipment and any tips on filling by this method.  TIA.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas



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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:10:27 -0500
From: John.Wilkinson at aud.alcatel.com (John Wilkinson)
Subject: RE: Is it just me....or

Joe Rolfe wrote:

>is Jethros "reports" always unreadibly formatted....?

Me to, Joe.  I seem to get it O.K. viewed on line but if printed the lines
are too long and words are lost.  I don't know why that would be because HBD
always rejects my posts if lines are too long.

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 09:39:34 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Cats, Skunks and still more Cats!

     Nathan Kanous could just be onto something here. Yes it's true, we
don't have native skunks here in Australia (by the way, that's pronounced "
horse trailer"). The closest we ever got to one was watching Pepe La Pooh
(does anyone remember the proper spelling?) on the Bugs Bunny show.
Strangely enough, he had a bit of a thing about cats himself! Oh yes, and
Don McLean once sang about one he saw in the middle of the road, and Doctor
Pivo must have been in the car right behind Don as he has a photo of it. But
that really is another story.
     Nathan, I was trying to be somewhat polite when discussing the Mexican
beer. A more uncouth person than myself ( like Fouthey for example) would
have come straight out and called it "cat's piss"! I would appreciate you
sending me over a bottle of skunky aroma ( is it expensive ?) but I doubt if
it will match the flavour profile I was discussing. Please be sure to send
in a dark bottle to avoid the possibility of a light struck aroma upon
opening at this end. That would be all too confusing!!!
     Cheers Phil Yates.




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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 22:08:37 -0700
From: Scott Johnson <JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Beer Festival

Our homebrew club the Hillbilly Hoppers would like to invite everyone to
a beer festival.  We have been invited to participate in the festival
and would like to have you stop by and try some of our beers.
The beer festival is the:

The first annual Governor's Crossing Brewers' Festival
Date : June 26, 1999
Where : Rocky River Brewing Company in Sevierville, Tennessee.

 There are to be a minimum of 20 craft breweries from seven states, six
food vendors serving everything from Mexican to German, two live bands,
a radio broadcast from the site.
Admission for this 8 hour beer extravaganza is only $20 per taster and
$5 for designated drivers, who get free non-alcoholic beverages, but no
beer.

Cheers,
Scott Johnson
Hillbilly Hoppers Homebrew Club



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Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 03:47:00 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cats

Brad McMahon writes...,
An Australian who has never swung a cat by the tail.
(You grab them by the neck, snake style, so they can't
turn and bite.)

Brad...you obviously don't live with a male cat.  I had an old tom (The
Puskin) that was involved in many cat wars in the years he lived with me.
As soon as the girls in my family heard the cat "singing" begin, I would
have to go out and track down The Puskin.  Once I found him I would have to
sneak up behind, instantly grab him beneath the shoulders with an iron grip,
hold him at arms length until I got him home.  Only then could I safely (for
my sake) release him.  This cat was so mean he would turn on me or any other
living thing that happened to be in his territory, if the mood struck him.
Still, I loved that old beast, even after all these years.  He died of
excessive alcohol consumption and smoking related disease.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas





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