---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Redox/Weizen (AJ)
  re: warm tap water in chillers.. ("Peter J. Calinski")
  re. Using a CPBF to bottle beer/Headspace air measurements (Dean Fikar)
  Re: Rhubarb Mead question (Bill Murray)
  Three new Digests... (Pat Babcock)
  Re: Keg Pressure for Wheat Beers (Teutonic Brewer)
  A few words on the good doctor ("Alan McKay")
  Yes! (Pat Babcock)
  basements (kathy/jim)
  basements ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Yeast starters (Peter Owings)
  First in 3; birth of a brewster; EventCam (Pat Babcock)
  The AHA and Charlie P. - I Did Ask. ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Mash thickness (CLOAKSTONE)
  Re: Why Homebrew ("O'Brien, Douglas")
  Re: Keg Pressure for Wheat Beer ("Christopher Farley")
  HopTech's Safale yeast challenge (Jeff Bitgood)
  exploding grapes & toasters ("Tom & Dee McConnell")
  cold secondary fermentation ("Conan Barnes")
  Addendum To Discussion of the Clinitest Experiment (Dave Burley)
  Dr Who? (Wesley)
  hops & feminization (ensmingr)
  MSN Cooking with Beer ("Brian Dixon")
  Cheese Making (Rod Prather)
  Re: First All Grain ("Frank J. Russo")
  re:Cheese Making (Steven Cardinal)
  Seattle Homebrewing & Mead question (larson.jt)
  What a cheesy topic! ("Alan McKay")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:52:51 +0000
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Redox/Weizen

Roger Ayotte points out that knowlege of ORP (oxidation potential)
doesn't tell the whole story. This is indeed true and is perhaps why ORP
doesn't seem to be very much in vogue these days. Nevertheless it seems
reasonable that if I have a beer with a low ORP (i.e. one in a reduced
state) that it is rich in "reductones" and less likely to stale than one
with a high ORP (in a more oxidized state). As I mentioned in the last
post a dose of ascorbic acid will lower the ORP giving the reduced
state. Conversely, exposure to oxygen does lead to higher ORP and few
people question that this will lead to staling, especially if the beer
is biologically stable (yeast removed or killed).

This leads to today's tip from commercial brewing practice. I'll be
throwing these out from time to time to try to show the Luddites just
how much we have taken from commercial practice. Most  will be more
immediately applicable to home brewing than this one (which could
probably be used as fuel for their fire) but as we are on this subject,
here it is:
A little ascorbic acid (vitamin C) can be used to scavenge oxygen in
beer at    bottling time. However some  metabite (commercial vintners
use these "sulfites" at quite high levels and so do brewers but at, I
believe, much lower concentration) is also required to prevent the
oxidized ascorbic acid from in turn oxidizing other substances which it
tends to do in the presence of metal ions.

Roger also mentions the need to consider kinetics. Organic redox
reactions tend to be slow. Some, and fortunately staling reactions are
apparently among them, are excruciatingly slow. We're better able to be
aware of them than to really consider them since there are dozens (or
more?) of these reactions taking place simultaneously with different
rates (and different equilibrium potentials).

Steve mentioned the Indicator Time Test (ITT) in #3084. In this test the
time taken to decolorize the indicator  2,6-dichlorophenol indophenol by
cold pH buffered wort is measured. This would seem to consider the
kinetics but in fact the speed of decolorization is related to the rH.
Two other notes: this indicator decolorizes at rH 22 - that's where I
must have seen this number. Second, I don't find the ITT in the ASBC
methods which I interpret as further evidence than ORP/rH are out of
fashion. Details of ITT (and on the use of indicators for rH
measurement) can be found in DeClerk.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Brian Kuhl asked about dispensing pressure for Weizen. I've been running
20 psig which is perhaps a little high but it gives the cumulus head and
quite a bit of carbonation in the beer in the traditional Weizen glass.
I've now backed down to 17 -18 for a little more beer (and a little less
foam). The setup is a modified dorm fridge with a tower and at most 4'
of 1/4" line.

- --
A. J. deLange
Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore.




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Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1999 19:28:12 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: re: warm tap water in chillers..

When the tap water gets too warm I reverse the function of the immersion
chiller.  I put the chiller in a bucket of ice water and run the hot wort
through it.  

This requires:

The inside of the chiller be sanitized.

A thermometer in the outlet of the chiller to measure the temperature of
the cooled wort.

Two "hose pincher" type hose clamps.  One between the brew pot outlet and
the
chiller and the other on the outlet of the chiller.  Use them to restrict
the flow so that the outlet temperature equals the final temperature you
are shooting for.

Ice for the chiller bucket.  I have four plastic bins, each about the size
of a shoe box.  I fill them with water and store them in my beer fridge
freezer.  To use them I break them up with an ice pick and add to the
chiller bucket.   

Four bins of ice plus maybe 4 trays of ice cubes (also from the beer fridge
freezer)will chill a 5 gallon batch in 20 minutes or so. YMMV.  Of course
it helps to shake the chiller to distribute the heat to the ice water.


Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY 14051
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:04:56 -0500
From: Dean Fikar <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: re. Using a CPBF to bottle beer/Headspace air measurements

> Bottle with CPBF? ("Houseman, David L")
>
> I bottle and keg beer.  When I keg I use my CPBF to fill bottles for
> competitions.  But when I bottle beer, I've continued to use my standard,
> spring loaded bottle filler.  I was thinking about hooking up one of my
> CPBF's to my bottling bucket and gravity filling bottles as I normally do
> but use the CPBF's ability to clear the bottles of air and fill with CO2 as
> a method of eliminating as much O2 in the head space.  I wouldn't leave any
> pressure in the bottle prior to filling but rather just use the mechanism to
> purge air from the bottle.  Does anyone do that today?
>

What I do is rack from the primary (I don't use secondaries) to a corny
keg which has had the boiled and sanitized priming sugar added which
then functions as my "bottling bucket".  I hook up the CO2 to the corny
and my CP filler, lightly pressurize (around 2-3 psi), then purge the
bottle & fill just like I would during a regular CP session with already
carbonated kegged beer.  The only difference is that the CO2 pressure is
much lower and the noncarbonated beer doesn't have to be cold.

On a somewhat related note, Louis Bonham wrote an interesting article in
BT recently where he measured oxygen in the head space of bottled beers
he had received.  He found that many had quite a bit of air in the
headspace, as I recall.  I can see how this could happen with
conventional (non-CP) bottling or with sloppy CP filling techniques.
However, if one purges with CO2, CP fills, and caps on foam I don't see
how you could have more than a half cc or so of air in the headspace.
After all, the foam should be mostly CO2.  Has anyone out there measured
headspace air after properly capping on foam?

Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:19:22 -0500
From: Bill Murray <bmurray at execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Rhubarb Mead question


The lesson I have learned in my years of mead making is: experiment. Do
what seems right at this point and then make your next batch based on the
results of the last. That said, at this point in my brewing evolution I
always add fruit when I am heating the must (add fruit in hop bag at around
180 degrees and let soak for 10-20 minutes, mashing bag around with
stirring paddle/spoon and by doing this you break up the fruit and release
any juices) and then either transfer it into primary (depending on the type
of fruit) or not. By doing this you rarely need nutrient as there usually
exists plenty in the juice of the fruit. Once primary is over you can add
additional fruit in secondary after tasting a sample and judging the
"fruitiness" of it. I have not tried adding fruit a third time after
racking off the bottom yeast cake, but I likely will some time... my only
fear is that there will be no yeasties to attack the sugars and I will make
the mead too sweet.

Since you did not add fruit during the heating process, I would start with
a minimum of 4 lbs of rhubarb during secondary. But I must (no pun
intended) add that I truly dislike rhubarb and so have no idea as to the
relative potency of the... it is a fruit, yes? If rhubarb is not very
"juicy," add more. To prepare it: clean it, cut it up into pieces small
enough to fit through the smallest part of your funnel, freeze it and then
add it to your secondary by cramming it through your funnel as fast as you
can following normal sanitization procedures (we use the sanitized end of
our brewing paddle to smash it down into the carboy through the funnel).
Have never had a problem doing this. Keep it in secondary for anywhere from
a few days to no more than ten - judge when to remove it by the color and
texture of the fruit - as it gets truly mushy, loses the color and starts
to look disgusting... get it out. Take lots of notes, and enjoy...

Bill




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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 11:26:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Three new Digests...


The Home Brew Digest corral has expanded once again. A recent post to the
Home Brew Digest reminded me that there is another area of fermentation
that has a hobby following who might benefit from an online discussion
group. Not only this, but I'm sure many of us are just plain curious about
the processes involved in making...
                                       ...cheese! 

And what goes better with a good slice of cheese but fresh...
                                                               ...bread!

That's two of the new Digests available from the Home Brew Digest:

      The Cheesemakers' Digest
         subscribe at cheese-request@hbd.org
         post to cheese at hbd.org
      The Bakers' Digest
         subscribe at bakers-request@hbd.org
         post to bakers at hbd.org

Finally, though having little to do with fermented beverages, many of us
and/or our spouses/SOs are interested in crafting - home and country
crafts. Seems to come with the territory! To give them something to do on
the PC (and so that we can say "See? I told you so!" when THEY have a
mailing list that they follow rabidly), we are also rolling out... 

      The Home & Country Crafts Digest
         subscribe at crafters-request@hbd.org
         post to crafters at hbd.org

All systems are "closed" subscription, meaning that subscriptions are
filtered through the list owner. Finally, only those subscribed or
listed in a separate "allowed" list can post to the lists. This will serve
to prevent most spam from getting into these Digests. Those representing
commercial interests allied with the subject of ANY digest served on the
HBD server are welcomed to subscribe to any list, but we ask that you
refrain from posting blatant commercials. A brief statement regarding any
special items you have or special sales are also welcome on occasion -
just not habitually. The response of the list participants will let you
know if you have "stepped out of line". Please be sensitive to that and
use it as your yardstick.

Finally, since the MajorDomo lists (hvd, dbd, bakers, cheese, crafters and
all club lists) are run separately from the Home Brew Digest, please use
the address of the list owner to comment regarding the lists' operation.
The list owner's address is the name of the list, a hyphen, the word
"owner", an  at  and the domain. For instance, the list owner for the Home
Vintners' Digest (hvd) would be contacted at hvd-owner at hbd.org

Thanks, and enjoy the new lists! 

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 10:08:04 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Pressure for Wheat Beers

Hi, Brian,

Yes, three and a half to four and a half volumes of CO2 in a German style
wheat beer needs 20-30 psi -- but my CO2 volume vs pressure table doesn't
go up that far!  While you could carbonate it to that level, dispensing it
from the keg will be a problem.  It'll shoot out of the pint glass all over
you, the fridge, the walls, the ceiling, you get the idea.  Even if you
bleed the excess head pressure off when you want to serve it, you'll still
get a glass full of foam and not much else.  I recommend just carbonating
it to the usual 10psi level and live with the lower carbonation.

If you want that higher carbonation, bite the bullet and bottle condition
your wheat beer.  Even more fun, drink up and collect a bunch of the German
half liter bottles from the liquor store.  While I've used the typical
non-returnable brown long necks at wheat beer pressures, I sure feel safer
with those heavy half liter bottles.  Even then, I met someone who spent a
couple years at a brewery in Regensburg, Bavaria, getting his
apprenticeship degree.  He said that their Weizen was so gassy (must have
been close to 5 volumes) that they would put a bottle of the stuff in the
afternoon sun for a couple hours, and it would explode.  Must have been a
pretty riotous bunch of apprentices there.

Prost!
Paul Claassen (aka Teutonic Brewer)
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 13:11:09 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: A few words on the good doctor

Alan Meeker writes :

Implicit in the title are a degree of training and competence
beyond the majority of laypersons.

I respond :

Hmmm, I wonder.  Does spending a good portion of the last 10 or 
so years in Czech breweries, watching and learning, count as
"training and competence beyond the majority of laypersons"?

I also wonder if someone gets fooled by the title "Dr", if they
also thought our good doctor was made of beer.  That is, afterall,
what "pivo" means ...

Once again, though, I have to ask : has anyone even bothered
to ask the guy whether or not he does have a PhD?  I know
from his webpage that he has 2 degrees in the sciences.

cheers,
 -alan

- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 15:42:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Yes!

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Aaaaaiiiiiiiiieeeeeee!!! For the first time in three years, this brewer is
firing up the ol' system! Better yet, Momma is joining in on the fun to
produce a batch of her own! The yeast is ready to go - London Ale for
the ESB, and a "mutt" yeast for the nut brown. Fermenters sanitized and 
waiting.... Here we go!

Out shall pop an ESB and a Nut Brown Ale. (Albeit extract batches today,
but it feels good! Soooo good to be standing behind the kettle once
again...)

There'll be a progress report upon completion. Stay tuned...

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 19:01:19 -0400
From: kathy/jim <kbooth at scnc.waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: basements

There are many local reasons basements are relatively rare in the
southern 2/3rs of the eastern US, but the impact of humidity is a major
problem to manage in the pre-air conditioned/dehumidifyer era.  The warm
moist southern climes really wet down those cool stones.  It is a real
problem in May in Michigan, but to live with condensate for 6-9 months
would be really nasty.  Bugs, snakes, mosses, ants, and other creatures
love those slimy environes. 

I lived in Kansas 1930's to 60's where most of the houses also had
basements, but it was dry enuf on the prairie to avoid the worst of the
humidity situation. One day in the 1930's when mom was doing the wash in
the basement she noticed a 5' bull snake cooling himself on the cool
basement floor escaping the Kansas heat.  She calmly found a gunny sack
and guided the snake in with a stick so to transport him to our grocery
stove where he was released under the floorboard into the 4-6 inch crawl
space to chase rats and mice (pre Warfarin). Ever so often he'd appear
where the stores of groceries were moved in the warehouse area. 
Eventually the grocery store moved and the pharmacy then in the space
experienced a day of terror when a huge bullsnake was found occupying
shelf space with jars of drugs. Dad never owned up to the druggist about
its origins.   

Those basement floors kept cool and sweaty the case of beer my dad
brought back from Missouri for the haying crews and occasionally his pre
adolescent son and his cousins.  Storing things there in the summer
except for glass jars, was at your peril.  However stone jars of dill
pickles were accessible to us kids as the mold on the edges would wash
right off. 

I've been an avid CAP brewer trying to recreate those beers of my
wayward adolescense. 

Cheers, and Renner for President.....jim booth, lansing, mi

ps  we in MI call those basements where the original fieldstone (or
block) foundation walls went to the 48" depth leaving a crawl space, but
later a full basement with new wals was dug inside leaving the
foundation intact, a MICHIGAN BASEMENT.  What do people in other states
call them?



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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 06:20:57 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: basements

I think another factor entering into whether homes have basements or not is
just tradition.  If you are in an area where they don't have basements, the
builders are just not familiar with them.  If you ask for a basement, its a
curve ball the builder just doesn't want to swing at.  You get an estimate
that makes it not cost effective.  If you are in an area where basements
are the convention and ask for a house without one, the builder will give
you an estimate that saves you very little.  He is just not used to that
type of construction and can't quantify the risk so he doesn't want to do
it.

I experienced a variation of this when deciding on the type of basement
walls for the house I was having built.  Forty years ago my father was
building his house in an area of Pennsylvania where they built foundations
with concrete blocks.  He was from the old school and wanted a poured
concrete foundation.  The estimates were outrageously high.  In the end he
did the foundation himself with a helper that had an old set of forms.   

Twenty five years ago when I was having my house built, I was working out
the details and prices with my builder.  Poured concrete foundations are
standard in this area of New York.  When I tried to explore the option of a
concrete block foundation he basically said there was no cost savings and
gave me a list of all the downsides (most of which I agreed with; I was
just trying to soften him up by suggesting concrete block). 

Bottom line, he had his way of building a house and couldn't relate to any
other way.  I believe there is some of the same thought process effecting
basements.

Please don't turn this into a discussion of poured concrete verses concrete
block.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY 
Near Buffalo NY

pcalinski at iname.com





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Date: Sat, 17 Jul 1999 23:14:28 -0400
From: Peter Owings <peteo1 at mindspring.com>
Subject: Yeast starters

I've enjoyed culturing yeast for the last couple of years. I dutifully step
up the starter for every batch (50ml - 500 - 2000ml). What would happen (at
the 500ml size) if I poured off the liquid and fed the slurry 500ml of
fresh wort? Would the yeast count go up or would I just have the same
amount of yeast? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

peteo1 at mindspring.com
"Remember kids...Duck and cover!"












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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 00:29:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: First in 3; birth of a brewster; EventCam

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

It.... Is... Finished.

Five gallons of a new generation of extract nut brown ale (sorry, Night At
The Speedway fans - I can't seem to find the Premier anywhere anymore) and
a Munton's Gold Olde English Bitter. Done. In the fermenters. Pitched.
Rockin!

The evening consisted of Paulaner Hefewiezen followed by Arcadia ESB,
Goose Island IPA, Anchor Porter, and an APA I brewed three years ago (and
_still_ good!) What an evening. The Lovely Kimberley has brewed her first
batch; friend Tom Hayes has participated in a brew, and I have put up the
first batch in about three years. Ah! AH!!!! Feels good. Now - back to the
mash tun. And the rebirth of A Nightmare Before Christmas holiday ale and
The Border Graf-style Vienna. Yes!

Kim had a LOT of questions throughout the session. It was interesting to
see the "newbie" perspective again - and so close. She was most interested
in pitching the yeast (after all, when does it actually become beer?) and
is excited about putting together her own label. Tom had a few questions
himself, but all in all, there are now two more people rabidly interested
in that next batch. Make that three. A good night!

BTW: After the "by the book" experience with the dry yeasts used (I am a
liquid culture fanatic) I have a new respect for dry yeasts. Never with a
liquid culture have I had a yeast nearly ferment out a starter in five
hours. Incredible, and a credit to the yeasts' producers, to be sure.

The event has been captured on the HBD's new "EventCam" page. Take a peek
at hbd.org/eventcam. Still converting formats from the JanitorCam page
(from which I stole the concept). If you have a digital camera, the
ability to ftp realtime (at 2 to 4 minute intervals) and an event worthy
of coverage, e-mail eventcam at hbd.org for info. Next planned EventCam
event: the 1999 Michigan Brewers Guild Summer Festival (7/24)... 

 - See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 18:17:40 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: The AHA and Charlie P. - I Did Ask.

     To those that responded to my post (and there were quite a number) I
just wanted to thank you for the insight.
     Here in Australia we are a long way behind the scene in the USA. We
just don't have your population. Apart from a handful (and I mean a tiny
handful) of micro-brewers and brewpubs, the rest of the commercial brewing
scene largely is inactive as far as producing different beers is concerned.
It mostly comes down to those of us who home brew. Probably similar to what
you were experiencing twenty years ago. One difference though is that we
benefit from your modern day home brew equipment, and acquired knowledge. My
suggestion for the AHA would be perhaps to change the name and try to
encourage a broader international membership. Don't know how that would go
with the folk in the USA but just a thought.

Cheers and Thanks Again,
Phil Yates.






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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 12:55:58 EDT
From: CLOAKSTONE at aol.com
Subject: Mash thickness

John asks about mash thickness and fermentability.  This is my understanding, 
namely that there is no easy answer due to two contradictory and competing 
forces.

The first is that beta amylase is more heat labile than alpha amylase; a very 
thin mash, having a greater degree of thermal mass, will, at given 
temperatures (even very low temps), tend to denature beta more quickly than a 
thick mash at the same temperature.  This would tend to result in a less 
attenuated, more heavily alpha-intensive wort and beer.  This tendency has 
been propounded, I think by George Fix, as one reason why PU is so rich and  
malty, even though they mash at fairly low temps, for sustained periods:  
they use an extremely thin mash, so that even though the saccharification is 
maintained for a sustained time at a beta range, the beta is fairly quickly 
denatured due to the thinness, and alpha "chews" away slowly.

The second tendency is that for long, thin mashes, there is more mobility and 
overall saturation of saccharification enzymes, both alpha and beta; they are 
not as restricted by the increasing concentration of liberated sugars in the 
wort as would be the case with a thick mash (see Dave Miller, Homebrewer's 
Guide, pg. 97).   

Which weighs more heavily - the heat labile nature of beta, or the higher 
mobility of beta (and alpha) and thus a greater sugar breakdown with a thin 
mash?  I don't know.  Why not do a trial:  a very thin mash at 145 for 90 
minutes, and a very thick mash at 145 for 90 minutes?  The lengthy mash 
period would certainly produce an attenuated beer, unless the heat labile 
beta is truly denatured under thin mash conditions...


Yours - 

Paul Smith


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:30:53 -0400
From: "O'Brien, Douglas" <Douglas.O'Brien at CCRS.NRCan.gc.ca>
Subject: Re: Why Homebrew 

At risk of stating the obvious I think it depends a lot on where you live.

Several posters have suggested that cost is not the main factor.  This may
be true in the U.S., but not, I believe, in Canada.  Note that in Canada a
typical mass market beer (e.g. Molson Export) costs about C$1.30 (US$0.88) a
bottle, and that premium (local or regional brewery) beers are 1.5X that
cost.

Most *home* brewers that I know use cost as the main factor, with quality
second (although the latter is often debatable).  I am deliberately
including those who brew a U-Brew shops.  These shops are very, very common
in Canada and I know a lot of brewers who have stopped brewing a home and
switched to U-Brews (perhaps more beer brewed in Canada at U-Brews than at
home?).  The reason - people I know are not interested in brewing as a
hobby, but in cheap & easy beer.  (Brewing at home may be cheaper, but it is
nowhere as easy).  As an all-grain brewer I am, by far, the exception rather
than the rule.

I suspect the other countries, i.e., U.K., are the same, and that the U.S.
is somewhat unique!

Doug



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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 13:58:52 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Keg Pressure for Wheat Beer

Brian Kuhl writes:

> I just got setup to keg my homebrew! I am very happy I don't have to bottle
any
> more.
> I have a question on carbonation however. What are some of you setting the
> pressure gage for this type of beer? I read that the volumes of CO2 for
wizen is
> 3.7-4.7. This seems extreme. At 35 degrees F., This should equate to ~21-31
PSI.
> Am I in the right ball park?

The carbonation chart I consulted doesn't list values much higher than 3.25
volumes of CO2, but ~21-31 PSI is certainly in the right ballpark.

Dispensing beer at those pressures is a completely different issue. At 21-31
PSI, you're going to get a big glass of foam unless you put a LOOONG run of
refrigerated tubing between the faucet and the keg, and chill your glass. This
is probably why you mostly see Hefeweizen in bottles rather than on-tap.

To dispense a beer like that, I used to bleed all the CO2 out of the keg
through the pressure relief valve, set the regulator to a minimal PSI, and
pour. Apart from being wasteful of CO2, I was later told (by a brewer from
Summit Brewing) that excessive venting of CO2 from beer can strip volatile hop
flavor and aroma from the beer. Is this *really* something to fear? Are there
any other reasons not to change keg pressure frequently? How is this different
from the 'excessive venting' of CO2 that occurs during a fermentation?

Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739





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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 14:17:10 -0500
From: Jeff Bitgood <jbitgood at planassoc.com>
Subject: HopTech's Safale yeast challenge

I was on HopTech's site this weekend, and I saw an announcement for the
"new" Safale dry yeast they stock, although after doing a search on the
HBD, I see it's been around for a little while.  I realize people have
tried it before and have had good success with it, but nobody's posted
temperature data.  They say it's been "tested to make very clean beers
up to 93F".  That's a pretty bold statement, one which I'm putting to
the test.

I plan on doing a split batch of American Pale, one half at 65F, the
other up in the kitchen at the mercy of the weather, taking temperature
readings 3 times daily.  It typically gets into the mid-80s during the
day in my house.  I'll post the results as soon as I get them.

Jeff Bitgood
Madison, WI


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:56:30 +0100
From: "Tom & Dee McConnell" <tdmc at bigfoot.com>
Subject: exploding grapes & toasters

scientific analysis of grapes that shoot sparks.
 
http://www.sci.tamucc.edu/~pmichaud/grape/

scientific analysis of Strawberry Pop Tarts that shoot flames 18" 
out of a toaster.
 
http://www.sci.tamucc.edu/~pmichaud/toast/
 
Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot.com)
Littleport, Ely, Cambs (UK)


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:42:54 -0400
From: "Conan Barnes" <barneco at earthlink.net>
Subject: cold secondary fermentation

hey guys,

quick question about secondary fermentation.  i'm thinking about trying it
out on my latest batch, a pale ale variety.  i've heard that it's best to
conduct secondary fermentation at a cooler temperature to increase settling
of the yeast, and clarify the brew.  my concern is too much of the yeast
flocc'ing so there isn't enough for natural carbonation.  i was planning on
just throwing the carboy in my brew fridge, which i keep at around 40 F.  I
this a valid concern?  should i try a slightly higher temp, yet still less
that room temp?  and while i'm on the subject of it, any advice on the use
of finings would be helpful as well.  TIA!

Conan Barnes,
Columbus, GA




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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 20:55:07 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Addendum To Discussion of the Clinitest Experiment

Brewsters:

I left out one possibility which I have offline noted
with HBDers who are beginning to evaluate Clinitest
and it is in sync with what both SteveA and AlK
have been wrestling with when trying to understand
(if they are!  {8^) ) my Clinitest results.

I first began to use Clinitest in brewing as an offshoot
of winemaking where Clinitest is well known as a
test for fermentable sugars.  I at first expected
(like AlK and SteveA , I believe) that dextrins would
be responsive to Clinitest. Chemically it makes
sense.  I was very surprised to find a very low
reading with Clinitest applied to fermented beer
while the FG was still a reasonable value.  As I
repeated it on beers in various stages of
fermentation and conditioning, I became more
and more confident that Clinitest was a valuable
brewing asset. But still puzzled.

Eventually, I accepted the fact that all lower
oligosaccharides were being fermented as
part of the so-called ( by DeClerk and probably
generations of brewers before him) "secondary"
fermentation which followed the primary fermentation.
This secondary fermentation was not bacterial
as it is in Burgundy when the wine "wakes up" in
the Spring and undergoes a malo-lactic
fermentation. But for beer this was a continuation,
albeit slowly, of the yeast fermentation of the higher
oligosaccharides. Thus, this fermentation could
be tracked by Clinitest and eventually would fall
to so low a value that these residual short chain
oligosaccharides would not have an effect
on taste or bacterial stability. This is what I have
been assuming all along OR that Clinitest is, for
some reason, insensitive to certain maltotetraoses
like it is insensitive to sucrose. Either way it is a
useful tool with my beers and perhaps for others.
Thus, I introduced this concept here, trying to be 

helpful to home brewers.

Normally, lagers could complete this secondary
fermentation during lagering, ales probably
( except, perhaps, stale ales) would not, since in
commercial practice even in the old days they
were on draught within a few weeks (days?) of
fermentation.   


The excitement came when I realized the
*absolute* nature of Clinitest, since it always
gave these low values regardless of the OG
( up to OG =1.070 is the total record of my
experience). That is, it is no longer necessary
 to know beforehand what the hydrometer
reading is supposed to be to know if your brew
is at the end of the fermentation (EOF). I have yet to
find a situation where this is not true with my beers.
If the fermentation does appear to be ending high,
a stir or slight warmup and the secondary
( for want of a better name) continues to a Clinitest
value of <1/4% or even 0 for some lagers, should I
care to  wait.  Most often I keg or bottle at 1/4%, so I
can only claim that level as complete knowledge
and the lower values as indicators .

However, SteveA pointed out something of which I
cannot deny the logical possibility that, perhaps,
my brewing methods are somehow removing
the maltotetrose and maltotriose. If this were
somehow true, this could both explain my results
with Clinitest apparently not beng responsive to other
possible short chain oligosaccharides
( since they aren't there, as I was presuming)
and his information that maltotetraose is
apparently not fermentable by pure strains
( I presume ) of "brewing yeasts",but
should be responsive to Clinitest.

I cannot deny the logical possibility. However
( and I do not want to start an opinion battle
over this) I would guess that, if anything, more
intensively mashed beers would perhaps
have more of the short chain oligisaccharides,
since they would be cut up from the big chains
by the more stable alpha amylase after the beta
is gone, and not be shortened further by the
beta. OR is this oft repeated process incorrect
and the beta only forms the sugars from the end
of the long chains? I still cannot conceive
of a situation where mashing would somehow
selectively remove the shorter oligosaccharides.
Can any of the HBDers?

Not being an enzymologist ( or even
playing one), I do not know nor do I
have the data. Does anyone have any
data which shows the growth of short
chain oligosaccharides as a function
of mashing time or temperature or both?

Would decoction or other intense
mashing somehow remove the
maltotetraose and maltotriose in some
German lagers? and could this explain the
chart I posted from M&BS showing an
absence there and in one conditioned
ale of these oligosaccharides there?

Data anyone? 



Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley    


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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 21:21:16 -0400
From: Wesley at brandeis.edu
Subject: Dr Who?

Hi Folks,
    I've been a bit busy with my research work lately so I have not had
time to read the HBD for a few weeks.  I was shocked, SHOCKED I tell
you, to see that the Pivo thread is still going strong!  I'd like to
refer those who get pissy about the use of the title "Doctor" to a latin
dictionary.  The word is derived from latin and predates the existance
of "universities" by more that a thousand years.  "Doctor" simply means
teacher.  I don't know why it is that people have the idea that
universities have the sole right of conferring this title.
    Perhaps the best solution would be to use the appelation Doc Pivo as
opposed to Dr. Pivo, but perhaps that is just piling it higher and
deeper.
                        Simon




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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:47:17 -0500
From: ensmingr at npac.syr.edu
Subject: hops & feminization

Some time ago, I was talking to an old timer I know from upstate New
York, where hops were once a valuable cash crop. He said he knew certain
guys who harvested or handled hops for many years gradually developed
feminine characteristics, such as the growth of small breasts. He also
said that many of the women who handled hops reported disruption in
their menstrual cycles.

My education is in plant physiology, so I realized that this story
seemed reasonable, since many plants contain "phytoestrogens", plant
compounds that have estrogenic and/or anti-estrogenic effects. However,
I finally found a paper in the scientific literature that seems to
confirm this. Home brewers and home hop growers may wish to look at:

Milligan, SR, Kalita, JC, Heyerick, A, Rong, H, De Cooman, L, De
Keukeleire, D (1999) Identification of a potent phytoestrogen in hops
(Humulus lupulus L.) and beer. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 84,2249.

Abstract:
"The female flowers of the hop plant are used as a preservative and as a
flavoring agent in beer. However, a recurring suggestion has been that
hops have a powerful estrogenic activity and that beer may also be
estrogenic. In this study, sensitive and specific in vitro bioassays for
estrogens were used for an activity-guided fractionation of hops via
selective solvent extraction and appropriate HPLC separation. We have
identified a potent phytoestrogen in hops, 8-prenylnaringenin, which has
an activity greater than other established plant estrogens. The
estrogenic activity of this compound was reflected in its relative
binding affinity to estrogen receptors from rat uteri. The presence of
8-prenylnaringenin in hops may provide an explanation for the accounts
of menstrual disturbances in female hop workers. This phytoestrogen can
also be detected in beer, but the levels are low and should not pose any
cause for concern."

Cheers!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY



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Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 23:33:59 -0700
From: "Brian Dixon" <mutex at proaxis.com>
Subject: MSN Cooking with Beer

Fellow HBD'rs,

In all fairness, I was tempted to just dump the whole article in right here,
but they'd probably prefer I hand off the URL instead .... ok, I did swipe
the recipe for 'Fritter Batter' from the MSN site and included it below.
That way, it'll make it into the HBD archives (the URL will fade away ...)

In any case, MSN had a short quip on cooking with beer.  See

http://www.msn.com

Or if the link isn't there, try this:

http://communities.msn.com/cooking/articles/beer.asp

Here's the recipe they included (which I'll try the next time I go clamming
and use my propane cooker to deep-fry clam strips right out on the Oregon
beach ... while enjoying a Downtown Brown that is!)

- --
Cooking with Beer

Have you ever had a perfectly crisp onion ring, and wondered why yours don't
come out quite as well?

Chances are, that onion ring was beer-battered and fried. Adding beer to
coatings for onion rings or using it in quick breads can lighten the coating
by adding leavening.

Featured Recipe- Fritter Batter
- ------------------------------------------
1-1/3 cups all-purpose flour
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon pepper
1 Tablespoon melted butter or oil
2 beaten egg yolks or whole eggs
3/4 cup flat beer

Mix all ingredients, except the beer, well, in a medium bowl. After the
ingredients are well-mixed, slowly add the beer, stirring the batter
constantly. Allow the batter to rest 3 to 12 hours in the refrigerator.

If using the egg yolks alone, just before you use the batter, you may add
the two whites of the egg, stiffly beaten. If using the whole eggs, omit
adding them.

"Fritter" refers to a battered food, with a light, delicate batter with egg,
which is then deep-fried (not pan-fried). Fritters can be just the batter,
or pieces of meat, fish, vegetable, or fruits dipped in a batter, dried, and
then deep-fried.

Fritter batter is like a pancake batter, but with a consistency that sticks
to the food being battered. Be sure to dry off the food being battered, as a
dry surface will allow the batter to stick.

Beer is used in fritter batter to leaven (lighten) the batter. Be sure to
let the batter rest, covered and refrigerated, after you make it-- for at
least 3 hours and up to 12 hours.

[snip]




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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 01:53:55 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Cheese Making

Concerning "Jack Schmidlings" post on Cheese making.

There is one BIG difference between beer making and cheese making.  Beer
doesn't make your house smell like ripened milk.  Muahh ha ha.



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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:16:27 -0400
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Re: First All Grain

>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1999 22:39:22 -0400
>From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
>Now I guess i'd like to solicit any suggestions / recipes for my first all
grain beer!  I'll be plumging out my coolers (coleman chest type) this
weekend and I'm itching to brew!>

John, I recommend A CAP's.  The Classic American Pilsner.  I just did one
myself a week ago.
Keep it simple, the recipe that is:

Mild Ale Malt		#7.75
Weissheimer Munich	#1.00
Flaked Maize 		#2.50
Hallertau	1.oz 		3.1%	60 min	Pellet
Perle		0.50oz 	7.0%	60 min	Pellet
Hallertau	0.50oz 	3.8%	10 min	Pellet

(5 Gal)
OG. 1.050-1.060

Frank
Havelock, NC



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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 07:31:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven Cardinal <scardinal at yahoo.com>
Subject: re:Cheese Making


I have two attempt under my belt Jack.  Unfortunately,
both have ended up in the trash.  Unlike beer,
questionable results can be hazardous to your health. 
I also have purchased the Cheesemaking book that you
mentioned (at least, it sounds like the same one). 
alt.cheese 'used to' have some cheesemakers on there,
but it appears to have dried up.  I just moved and
hope to start a new batch soon - the last one smelled
wonderful (a cheddar, aged 3 months) however, it began
to leak near the end - probably due to poor
temperature control for the aging process.

Cheers
Steve in Boxford, MA
===
This sentence is identical to the one you are reading now.

(Sorry about the following advertisement...)



_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 08:25:01 -0400
From: larson.jt at pg.com
Subject: Seattle Homebrewing & Mead question

My family and I feel very fortunate to be changing jobs and moving from Ohio to
Seattle in two weeks.  Can anybody offer any suggestions on good brewpubs,
homebrew stores, etc. in the Seattle area?

Seperately, I have a 6 month old batch of mead (my first) going that is still
not done fermenting.  It will be a still mead, so I planned to put in wine
bottles and cork.  My question: With the move in two weeks, I need to get it out
of secondary and bottle it if possible.  Will the corks allow pressure to pass
through them if some residual fermenting occurs, or will I have a bunch of
exploding bottles?  Why the long fermentation?  I have re-pitched dry wine yeast
several times and added all kinds of yeast nutrients, etc.  It still bubbles
about once a minute.  It tastes decent, but still has a lot of sweetness.

Todd
Cincinnati




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Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 09:11:23 -0400
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: What a cheesy topic!

I've dabbled in both yoghurt and cheese, and would be happy
to discuss it.  I'm not sure folks would want us doing that
here, though.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
Alan McKay
OS Support			amckay at nortelnetworks.com
Small Site Integration		613-765-6843 (ESN 395)
Nortel Networks
Internal : http://zftzb00d/alanmckay/
All opinions expressed are my own.


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---