---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: Orange peel ("Kensler, Paul")
  indoor brewery (MVachow)
  Location, location, location (Jeff Renner)
  cooking corn (Jeff Renner)
  Whirlpool/First Lager/Recipe (misaacs)
  RE: brew pub suggestions, Fort Wayne Indiana (Stevejac49)
  Citricidal, an effective organic sanitizer? ("Greg Mueller")
  p-cooking mash is just fine! ("Rich, Charles")
  re vendor question (Rick Lassabe)
  RE:  false bottoms for mash tuns ("Nigel Porter")
  two day brew session (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Equipment for all grain (Gary D Hipple)
  hops diseases? (Donald.L.Gillespie)
  brewing programs. ("Todd & Sherrel Crane")
  Stuck bottlewasher ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Honey, bot, bot toxin, and spores ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Re:  New Yeast Propagation Method ("Poirier, Bob")
  RE: Honey Containing Beers (wrust)
  hose length (RCAYOT)
  Pressure Cooking Wort ("Scott Moore")
  Re:  Equipment for all grain ("Darren Gaylor")
  Bottle washer (Eric.Fouch)
  dilutions and temperature (t carlson)
  yeast do so respire in wort! ("Eric Panther")
  Primary vs. Secondary revisited ("glyn crossno")
  to increase mash pH: Calcium Carbonate on top of grain? (darrell.leavitt)
  RE: Belgian Beers (John Lifer)
  Botulism and Honey ("Tommy P. Thompson, Jr.")
  Re: Equipment for all grain ("Larry Maxwell")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:15:15 -0500
From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com>
Subject: re: Orange peel


Hi Fred,
Regarding Curacao orange peel for Belgian style beers, the Curacao orange
peel I have found is always the entire dried peel, not just the zest.
Sometimes it comes in big long strips - the whole peel in one chunk.  Other
times it comes as little tiny bits.  I seem to have gotten more flavor out
of the first kind.  I usually get this type from St. Pat's in Austin, TX
(www.stpats.com) <http://www.stpats.com)> .  The other kind is readily
available at any homebrew shop that carries the "Brewers Garden" (I think)
brand of special ingredients.  But the kind that comes in little tiny bits
doesn't seem to be as fresh or as flavorful in my experience.

The Curacao oranges are much more bitter and "herbal" or "spicy" in
character than regular eating oranges.  Although I have used regular oranges
with success, there is a definite difference there.  I have used fresh zest
from oranges, and regular dried orange peels (from the bulk food / bulk
spices section of a local organic foods store) - the fresh zest gives a more
"orangey" flavor and aroma, very fresh, very fruity.  The dried peels are a
little less "orangey", and more of a general citrus flavor.  They give some
bitterness too, since they include the pith (the meaty white part of the
peel) as well as the zest.  They are also less intense in flavor and aroma
than the fresh zest.  I have tried dried zest from the grocery store spice
rack and as far as I can tell its nothing more than orange-colored bits of
rice or something - maybe I just got a stale bottle, because it contributed
nothing.

Anyway, you can use just about any sort of orange peel you want - fresh zest
or whole peel, dried peel, or dried Curacao peel, but they will all give you
different results.  For what its worth, if you can find the bulk dried
orange peel (at a natural foods store), they might also have dried lemon
peel which is nice to use sometimes too.

Since we're on the subject of Belgian spices, I would highly recommend using
fresh coriander seeds and grinding it yourself, instead of using pre-ground
coriander from the grocery store.  What a difference!


Have fun -
Paul Kensler
Plano, TX




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:38:29 -0500
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: indoor brewery

Donovan:

I recommend that you search the HBD archives for information on indoor
brewing set-ups.  This topic is one of those reoccurring "lines" on the HBD;
you'll find the whole gamut of responses, including some that seem entirely
reasonable--largely involving CO monitors and exhaust hoods.  There are also
articles in The Brewery's library on this topic.

I also recommend you consider one other line of thought.  Although your
kegging gear, fridge/freezer fermentor, grain storage, etc. obviously belong
in your new indoor space, there are some distinct advantages to brewing
outdoors, particularly if you have easy access to the basement from the
outdoors.  Number one on the list of outdoor brewing advantages is ease of
clean-up.  When I moved my operation outdoors (from the kitchen), I
instantly knocked an hour off my brew session time.  With the garden hose
always at hand, brewing gear is easily rinsed and scrubbed as one finishes
with it, and the garden and lawn profit in a peripheral kind of way.  Now I
suppose if you had entire little room in the basement for brewing, with a
drain in the floor, you might get the same advantage.  If not, you'll have
to haul the gear outside to be scrubbed or encounter the inconvenience of
trying to scrub out a 15 gallon brewpot in a little utility sink making sure
not to hose down the ski gear and the boxes of memorabilia and the baby
clothes, etc.  Second advantage of brewing outdoors is the outdoors.  When I
put in the balance the number of blistering hot or drizzly brew days (insert
snowy or sleety days here if you live in a northern clime) to the number of
stunning, clement brew days, I'm alway happy to be brewing outdoors.
Picture yourself schlepping around your dark, dank basement on a glorious
November day. . . . 

Mike 
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:52:43 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Location, location, location

Recently many of us, including me, have been having fun with my semi-annual
exhortation that we include our locations in our posts.  Then Donovan
<dlambright at socket.net> just gave a reason to do this when he wrote:

>(there's not even a club around here)

We don't know where "here" is.  There might be another brewer nearby who'd
love to get together for a beer or two if only he (she?) knew.  You could
both benefit.  Other reasons include other HBDers being able to help with
regional problems such as water chemistry, ingredient and equipment
availability, shared rides to events, club formation, and just plain HBD
community.

As always, Rennerian coordinates are optional.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:44:54 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: cooking corn

"Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com> wrote

>The one thing I did not find out is when cooking corn
>how do I know when I am done?

Good point.  I note that I just posted

>standard commercial (and my) procedure is to mash the
>grits first with ~30% as much malt as grits, then boil for 20-40 minutes,

I guess I should have written 20-40 minutes depending on grit size.  I
would think that 40 minutes is minimum for grits/polenta.  You could get
away with 20 minutes for fine corn meal.

Wahl and Henius' _American Handy Book_ (1902 ed., p. 716, see
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/) recommends 75 minutes for grits,
45 for meal, and that previous recommendations of 30 minutes had resulted
in less extract.  However, John Zappa (yes, he's a cousin), head brewer at
Point Brewery in Wisconsin told me that they boild their grits far less
than 75 minutes.  I think he said 30 or 45 minutes.  I generally boil
coarse corn meal 35-45 minutes.  You can't overdo it, and it might result
in more malty flavors if it goes longer.  You can see a gradual breakdown
of the structure of the grits or meal as the starch granules swell and
rupture.

Let us know how this first CAP turns out when you get home.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:57:35 -0700
From: misaacs <misaacs at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Whirlpool/First Lager/Recipe

Hello, all. First, my problem

I have a 13.5 gallon pot in which I brew 10 gallon batches. I use a 
immersion chiller and have installed a drilled manifold attached to my 
spigot for whole-hop/trub filter. The first couple (extract) batches 
everything worked fine, but my all-grain ones have thrown so much junk it 
clogs the holes. The exiting cooled wort slows to a trickle. I have not 
tried to remove the manifold and whirlpool - I guess I have to remove the 
chiller after cooling, too. Any advice? 

Second, I just plugged in my new beer refrigerator - woo-hoo! I have no 
beer to serve at the moment, so I was planning on buying an external 
temperature controller and fermenting some lagers. My chiller only gets 
the wort down to 70F. I don't plan on adding a pre-chiller yet, so I 
guess I chill it further in the fridge overnight then pitch. After 
ferment, I will slowly lower the temp to lager and later serve. What 
happens to those in kegs in a month when I ferment again, raising the 
temp to 50F or so? I Any advice regarding ferment temps, schedules and 
basic lagering help would be appreciated.

Finally, what should I brew! I do a single infusion mash in a 10 gallon 
cooler. I buy hops in 8oz packages, so sharing hops between recipes would 
be good. I would love to see your all-grain Anchor Steam clones and 
Vienna recipes as well. 

Thanks for all the advice to this point. I would not be all-graining 10 
gallon batches to kegs without the info found here.

Mike



Son of a Son of a Aler, misaacs at bigfoot.com
Tryin' to reason with "Hurricane Weizen"
Jolly Mon Brewery, San Ramon, CA


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:31:42 EDT
From: Stevejac49 at aol.com
Subject: RE: brew pub suggestions, Fort Wayne Indiana

Mark,

Since your friend Ed will be going to Indy, he may want to stop by
Fort Wayne on his way to East Lansing. Mad Anthony Brewing Company
features fine craft brews including a blond lager, amber lager,
pale ale, English brown ale, porter, Hefeweizen, and a raspberry
beer. They also sport an excellent menu as well as being co-located
with three other restaurants that serve their beer; the Munchie
Emporium, the Crawfish Club and Winfrieds German fare. Mad Anthony's
is located at the corner of Broadway and Taylor streets. Hope this
helps and interests Ed enough to stop by and sample some fine food
and beer.

Steve Jackson


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:04:04 PDT
From: "Greg Mueller" <brew_meister at hotmail.com>
Subject: Citricidal, an effective organic sanitizer?

I have used citricidal as  dietary supplement in the past and I am wondering 
if the product can be used as an organic sanitizer.  Citricidal is an 
natural cyto-active quaternary compound synthesized from the seed and pulp 
of certified organically grown grapefruit. One manufacturer claims 
Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE) is used as an antibiotic, antiseptic, 
disinfectant, and as a preservative in food and cosmetics. Grapefruit Seed 
Extract is also non-toxic, environmentally safe, and quickly 
bio-degradable.It causes no side effects and is often dramatically less 
expensive than existing treatments or chemicals for similiar applications, 
whether human, animal,or agricultural in scope.

Does anyone have any experience with citricidal or can prove its 
effectiveness in brewing applications?




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:48:17 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: p-cooking mash is just fine!

Once again brewster Davie offers his thoughts over-positively and errs.
This time regarding pressure cooking mash and wort.  In HBD #3095:

>BTW always be very careful to use wort ( not a
>mash) which has already been boiled before
>you put it into the pressure cooker and use an
>internal pan or bowl to contain it. 

The blanket sweep of his statement is what is in error, specifically the
"(not a mash)", bit.  Pressure cooking mash (yes, mash!) is a *wonderful*
way to prepare decoction fractions and is easily done safely. Never say
never, Davie, and never say always!

I have p-cooked both wort (un-preboiled) and mash many times, safely, and
the key is to use an inner, LIDDED vessel.  This is prudent when p-cooking
any grains, especially legumes (peas, beans, etc.).

Davie seems to be encouraging cooking directly in the pressure cooker which
is not such a good idea.  It will scorch and it won't heat uniformly, from
steam, as with an inner vessel.

Pressure cooking decoc fractions and cereal adjuncts 'hele-rocks' for many
reasons, not least of which is that it spares hand stirring a stiff fraction
over open heat (my arm hurts after about ten minutes of that!) and is
quicker.

Other good reasons are fuel economy; once up to pressure it cooks for as
long as you wish on a matchhead sized flame. There's also no risk of
scorching.

Flavor is probably the nicest reason though, since you can develop malty
flavors in quantities unavailable at boiling temps.  However, you don't even
have to take it that far.  I usually decoct Czech Pilsner fractions for only
about 5 minutes at 10-pounds just to gelatinize starch.  The result is
similar to a fifteen minute handstirred cooking, and doesn't darken things
out of style.  Likewise for cooking cereal adjuncts like corn. 

If you should miss caramelized notes from not handstirring, just reduce a
small amount of wort in a pan to about 1/2 volume and add back to the boil.
You don't need much, say about a pint reduced to a cup in a twelve-gallon
collection or even less, just to style or taste. 

The point that Davie could have made more clearly was regarding wort
foaming, and on paper seems like a good hack.  If you feel you must fill
your inner vessel very full, then pre-boiling to minimize foamup may help
but I wouldn't recommend filling it full enough to risk that in the first
place. 

I made a good inner vessel from an old 3-gallon metal soup pot.  Crush the
side handles close to the side with a C-clamp or a vise and add stiff wire
bails to them so you can lift it out after cooking.

>DB: Do not use hops in this procedure to avoid plugging of the vent.

Wrong to put it so baldly, Davie.  It certainly can be done safely in a
lidded inner vessel, not overfull.  I don't recommend it because the effect
is *so* extreme.  Use less a tenth of the boiling hops you'd expect and you
may still overdo it, even when added back to the main collection.

In fixing Davie's remarks I don't wish to make p-cooking sound as simple as
boiling water either.  One probably can't overestimate the violence of
pressure steam.  Have good tools (p-cooker/canner) and know how to use them.
Practice with canning wort yeast starters.  Try dropping a piece of a hop
pellet in one, bang it and taste the result.  Try p-cooking one for 30-40
minutes, taste the result.  Try cooking a jar full of stiff mash, after a
158F rest, or your decoc rest(s) of choice, p-cook for 30-40 minutes and
taste.  Keep notes and please tell the rest of us about your discoveries!

Be well, do good wort, ... 
Charles Rich


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Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:47:12 -0500
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re vendor question

Bruce and Amber Carpenter asked about Beer Beer and More Beer, I happen
to be a satisfied customer, that did have a chance to visit with them on
July 22nd. They were just as friendly in person as they have always been
when I ordered from them. I think all one has to do is look at their web
site and give them one try to be hooked with their service and price.
Rick Lassabe
"Bayrat's Bayou Degradable Brewery"
Bay Saint Louis, Ms.t



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:21:41 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE:  false bottoms for mash tuns

Joe Gibbens wrote:

>I'm building a new 10 gal mash tun based on a Gott water cooler.  
>Does anyone have any tricks for sealing the false bottom to the 
>sides and still being able to remove it?  Thanks.

Try getting a piece of food grade tubing (syphon tube) that is long 
enough to go round the circumference of your false bottom. Slice 
along the length of the tube to open in up. Slide this over the edge of 
your false bottom, all around. This seems to work nicely for sealing.

Nigel Porter
Not brewing in Guildford, UK 'cos its too hot 



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:59:00 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: two day brew session

Matt Comstock asked about two day brew sessions, where you mash and sparge
one night, and boil and pitch the yeast the next day. 

I first wrote about doing this sometime back in early '97 or so, and since
then a few others have posted that they use the same technique.

There are three concerns that I have seen posted about this technique:

1)contamination from letting warm wort sit overnight.
2)Hot side aeration.
3)and now, DMS.

Let's take the first concern, contamination. We have all seen many posts
here about the woefully long lag times that come from underpitching yeast.
Just pitching a swollen Wyeast pack into a fermenter without building it up
first can result in several days wait before any signs of fermentation
appear.  That Wyeast pack has a hell of a lot more "live stuff" in it than
you will have in your wort after mashing and sparging, at least if you're
careful about cleaning your equipment right after using it and don't allow
molds to grow in the false bottom, tubes, etc.  Unless you have spiders and
snakes crawling around in your  equipment there won't be enough bacteria to
do any noticeable damage to your wort by the time you boil it the following
day, and any bacteria present will be killed in the boil.

As for hot side aeration, all I can tell you is it doesn't happen in my
experience. I know this has been a hotly debated subject here on the
digest, and I suppose if you really splash your wort around while you are
mashing and or sparging, you may have a problem which could be exacerbated
by leaving the wort sit overnight. Myself, I mash in one vessel and then
carefully transfer to my lauter tun with a quart measuring cup, being
careful not to splash. The drain tube from the lauter tun is long enough to
reach to the bottom of the collection pot, and I am careful about not
splashing when I recirculate. I have a hunch that people with hot side
aeration problems are careless during the mashing /lautering stage.

As for DMS formation, I also wondered about that when I first started using
the two day technique, but I reasoned, as Matt did, that it would be boiled
off the next day. As it stands, I have never noticed DMS in the wort on day
two, even before the boil. Yes, I do know what DMS smells and tastes like.
I have deliberately slow cooled AFTER a boil (covering the pot first)in
order to develop it, and let me tell you, that works.

Could it be that DMS does not form at mash/sparge temps and requires
boiling temps to form?
  



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:20:15 -0500
From: Gary D Hipple <ghipple at mmmpcc.org>
Subject: Re: Equipment for all grain


Russ asks about all-grain lautering -

I use a 10 gal. Gott (Rubbermaid) drinking water cooler with a Phil's 
Phalse Bottom and sparge are.

I cut 3 notches in the lip of the cooler so the sparge arm "pipes" lock 
into the groves. I also drilled a hole in the center of the lid so the 
sparge water feed tube sticks up through the lid. This way I can keep the 
lid on if want to. It can be difficult to "see" into the lauter, but I 
can lift the edge and peer in with a flash light to see the sparge arm 
motion and water level on the grain bed. I keep meaning to install an 
external sight glass, but have done so.

I've never had a stuck sparge with this system (knock on wood!), but that 
also has a lot to do with grist. Crushed grain is less likely to become 
stuck than "floured."

As far as water, I contacted my local water utility and requested a 
"subscription" to the monthly water analysis report. I would not 
recommend "soft water" since many essential brewing elements are 
substituted with sodium in many conventional water softening systems. I 
get your sparge water "upstream" from the water softener.

All-grain brewing takes more time and patience, but it's worth the extra 
effort... IMHO.



G Hipple
    44 deg 55 mins-N
    93 deg 5 mins-W



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:19:53 -0400
From: Donald.L.Gillespie at am.pnu.com
Subject: hops diseases?

  Help. I 'm growing hops for the 2nd year. Last year I had a good 
  harvest from my Cascades, but nothing from my Goldings, they were too 
  small. This year, they are growing great and I also planted some 
  Nugget About a month ago, I started having yellowing and slow browning 
  of the bottom leaves on the Cascade and Goldings, which was creeping 
  upwards. I had already trimmed off the bottom 2 ft of leaves, and I 
  gave them a spray of garden safe fungicide (by Ortho but I can't 
  remember the name) thinking it was a fungus with the hot humid 
  weather. Plus, I had been watering with a sprinkler! I didn't seem to 
  help, so I applied a second spray 10 days later, and quit sprinkling. 
  That seems to have helped. But now, one whole mound of my Goldings has 
  turned rusty brown, nearly overnight. From the ground to 10-12 ft. up. 
  The vine and leaves are brown, but not dead. I will cut them down 
  tonight, and burn them, but has anyone seen this before? I haven't 
  read of anything like that. I can only hope it doesn't spread. Also, 
  the Japanese beetles are munching my hops. I don't like to spray too 
  often with pesticide, any suggestions for them. Insecticidal soap 
  doesn't seem to affect them, and Sevin doesn't seem to work for very 
  long either. please reply to dlgilles at net-link.net, thanks


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:57:16 -0000
From: "Todd & Sherrel Crane" <toddandsherrel at netzero.net>
Subject: brewing programs.

I know this is not exactly a brewing question,  But I think this is the best
place for me to look for help.  I am looking for some advice.  I want to
attend a brewing program in the next year.  I wonder if any one has any
advice.  I am leaning towards U.C. Davis or American Brewers Guild.  I would
consider Seibel, but sense I am in Arizona, that is farther then I want to
go.   My question I guess is which is a better program?  I understand
everyone will have a different opinion, but I need help.

I also know  U.C. Davis offers the "foundation" program.  I wonder if anyone
has attended this and could tell be more about it.   I am not necessarily
planing on going to work as a brewer,  But sense I work in the beer
business, I think formal training could be helpful.

Thanks in advance
Todd A. Crane
toddandsherrel at netzero.net


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:20:37 -0400
From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net>
Subject: Stuck bottlewasher

Philip J Wilcox wrote:

(snip)
I had it attached to the hose outside for while and then it sat on the porch
(outdoors). I figured its all brass, its not going to rust, why take it
inside. I went to use it again
last night and attached it to the hose and nothing was getting through the
thing. The L that releases the water still moves freely, but no water was
coming
through. Any ideas on how to "Unclog" one of these things????
(snip)

I'm in southern Virginia and there is a moderate size wasp finds every tube
like opening to fill with mud and larvae.  I think the wasp places an insect
with it's egg.  The combination of mud, insect or youngster, etc. completely
plugs the tube.  You mentioned that you left the washer on the back porch.
Is it open to flying vermin?  I recommend using a small flexible wire to
work through the washer from the hose fitting end.  A small loop at the end
of the wire will scour the walls if it is twisted during insertion.  Once
you can feel the probe hit the valve, you can back flush the washer and the
debris should be forced out.  Don't use a probe that can break and
exhaserbate the problem.

I've seen spider webs in tubes like this that were tough enough to seal the
pressure of a propane tank!

Wasp nest or spider web, either one will block any tube!

My opinion is presented without scientific basis - there's no evidence that
the wasp or the spider exists anywhere in the U.S.A.

                                                     Joy





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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:13:06 -0400
From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net>
Subject: Honey, bot, bot toxin, and spores


Beekeeper Michael Swintosky wrote:

(Joy write: " ..., honey contains bot and spores!")

No references were cited for this statement, so I'll not bother doing
research for mine.   : )

The story, as I heard it, was that there was a case of botulism poisoning
way back when.  As you might expect, honey was in the diet of unfortunate
infant.  However, it was never proven that the honey was the source of the
poisoning OR that an infant was any more likely to get botulism poisoning
from honey as compared to other foods not specifically prepared to destroy
the spores.
(snip)
 Botulism spores are found everywhere, including in honey.
(snip)
Mike Swintosky, Beekeeper  (no PhD!)
Dellroy Ohio
4 hives
One 1st and two 2nd place ribbons for extracted honey
1999 Carroll County Fair,  July 19-25

Joy replies:

Sorry for not researching my comment; however, natures best does contain bot
spores that can and will vegetate given the right environment.  Certainly,
an infant formula, hot water sanitized will contain viable bot spores.  A
refrigeration temperature of 40 degrees Fahrenheit will NOT prevent the
vegetation of bot spores in formula or foods.  It's slowed, but not
prevented.  A pH of less than 4.25 would, in combination with temperature
could prevent vegetation.

I've been out of the business for many years; however, as I recall, bot
toxin was proposed as one of the many causes of infant death syndrome.
Baby meat foods were to contain nitrite to retard the growth of bot ;
however, nitrite was classed as a potential carcinogen and removed from many
foods, especially baby food.   I recall reading that the gut of a newborn
and formula fed infants have a differing pH than older infants (how old? -
don't know).

Drinking Home brew prevents documentation of my opinions!

OTOH, the pH of mead is too low to allow bot spores to vegetate, so drink
up.  Then think about the risk of feeding non-sterilized honey to your
infant.  I certainly won't do it.  While you are drinking and thinking, you
might consider the presence of aflatoxin in honey?  It certainly exists on
grapes and cereal grains and will be present in the finished brew that  is
not distilled.   And what about pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides that
don't kill the worker bee and are returned to the hive and stored in the
comb?  :)  Do you test the honey?

Those nasty nitrosamines contained in the roasted barley malt, etc.  are
pretty potent carcinogens!  The presence of dangerous additives to alcoholic
are kept low key by collusion between the FDA and the industry they
regulate.  Unfortunately, the BATF allows few declarations on beverage
labels.

Keep the faith and keep those bees doing their thing.



                                               Joy

                   An insufferable opinionated home brewer having fun!




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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:33:35 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Re:  New Yeast Propagation Method

Greetings!!

In HBD #3096, Friday, July 30, 1999, Alessandro Calamide provides a link to a 
website which discusses yeast propagation via continuous, incremental feeding, 
and continuous aeration.

How could we, on a homebrew scale, incrementally feed a yeast starter?  Could 
it be as simple as setting up a continuous drip of wort into the starter?  I 
would think that maintaining a sterile, infection free supply of wort would 
be the greatest challenge:  Is there a vessel which could be sterilized (along 
with the wort) in a pressure cooker, from which the wort could later be 
dispensed?  Or maybe this technique of yeast propagation is not realistic at 
the homebrew level...

Bob P.
East Haven, CT


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:46:35 -0500
From: wrust at ralston.com
Subject: RE: Honey Containing Beers


Hi All,

I thought I'd comment on Matthew Comstock's post (#3096) regarding:  'Honey
 containing beers and bottle conditioning'

>I thought I'd pass along a recent observation about recent batches I've
>made using honey to make up a large portion of the fermentables.
>Without posting actual recipes I used, I made a 'honey stout' and a
>'honey ginger ale' loosely following Papazian recipes.  I bottled after
>two week primaries (no secondary).

I've made quite a bit of mead.  I'm assuming you are making the carbonated
varienty...  Honey can take quite a bit
longer to fully ferment out.  I would primary for no more than 7 days, if
you are using fruit, or until initial foaming dies
down, and secondary for at least 6 weeks if you're using large amounts of
honey.  If you're using Papazia's book,
check out his instructions for Barkshack Ginger Mead.  It has pretty
reliable results.  For more info on mead, check out the
Mead Lover's Digest.  You can probably get it from Deja News.  I can't
recall the listserver address, sorry.

Oops, I almost forgot.  You'll also probably want to use yeast nutrient if
you don't have much (or any malt) in the recipe.

Also, thanks for the info on freezing malt (those of you who replied).

Bill Rust, BS, BA, CSA, BJCP, LMNOP




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Date: 30 Jul 1999 08:25:04 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: hose length

     Steve Alexander has a great discussion, but I see a problem waaaay in 
     the beginning:
     
     "dP = L (in feet) * 0.56psi + 0.43 psi    [ 1/4" ID tubing, 2.5 
     fl.oz/sec ]
                             (where the  0.43 psi is the kinetic term)"
     
     You have an equation which contains a sum of factors with different 
     units, 
     
     ft*psi + psi
     
     won't work, better repost with correction!
     
     also: "differential (dP above) is proportional to v_2."
     
     don't see any squared term where does this come from?  Not saying 
     you're wrong, you just don't make a case like that!
     
     Keep on brewing!
     Roger
     


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:54:28 -0400
From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com>
Subject: Pressure Cooking Wort

I just ordered my 22 quart pressure canner/cooker to assist in my quest for
"malt sandwich" beer.  I plan on p-cooking the first runnings and I have a
few questions.  I checked the archives and recent threads but am still
unclear about a few things.

Is it advisable to put the wort directly in the cooker or are there better
methods to avoid scorching?

Is there an advantage to separating the hot break when I put it back in the
kettle or should I just dump in everything?

Pressure cooking the wort may turn out to be the best advice I've ever
gotten and the idea was born here on the HBD.  My thanks to both Charlies
and others for their inspired thought.

Scott Moore
(still unnamed brewery)
Medina, Ohio



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:10:13 -0700
From: "Darren Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com>
Subject: Re:  Equipment for all grain

Russ asks, "What is the consensus on a lautertun?? I have been told to go
with a gott cooler with an "easymasher", my brewpot with an "em", a square
cooler with slotted pipes, or the zapap system.  What are the pros and cons
of these systems?"

Consensus? On the HBD?  Please.

I've used the square cooler method for several years.  You can pick one up
for $15, another few bucks for some CVPC pipe and fittings (I prefer this to
copper, having used both), and you're mashing.  I use another cooler as a
hot liquor tank.

If I'm making multiple batches (usually the case), I use some "stock"
coolers to mash in and transfer the mash to the modified cooler for
lautering.  This lets me make three 10 gallon batches of beer with one
lauter tun and two kettles in about 8 hours.

This system works well for both 5 and 10 gallon batches (not that I mess
with 5 anymore).  I would call it inexpensive, but not "cheap".

I'd say that all the methods you listed would make fine beer.  I'd guess you
listed them in order of cost (cost of brewpot excluded) and popularity.

Darren Gaylor
Vancouver, WA






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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:13:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com
Subject: Bottle washer

Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:07:54 -0400
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Stuck bottlewasher

Dear HBD,

Has anyone had their bottle washer get stuck before? I dont remember the brand
on mine but it was manufactured in Traverse City, Michigan. I had it attached
 to
the hose outside for while and then it sat on the porch (outdoors). I figured
its all brass, its not going to rust, why take it inside. I went to use it
 again
last night and attached it to the hose and nothing was getting through the
thing. The L that relases the water still moves freely, but no water was
 coming
through. Any ideas on how to "Unclog" one of these things????

Phil Wilcox
Poison Frog Home Brewer
Warden-Prison City Brewers
In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner
AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium...

Phil-
Check that puppy for earwigs.  These little insidious bastards love to find
small wet places (........never mind........) to hang out.
They used to clog my oscillating sprinkler from time to time.
A good backflush, if you could figger out how to do it, would be in order.


Eric Fouch, PDTL
"..but you never know, until you know."
                                                -Dr. Pivo




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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:29:17 -0400
From: t carlson <carlsoto at river.it.gvsu.edu>
Subject: dilutions and temperature

In response to Jack's dilution question, 0.1 molar hcl is a solution of
hydrocloric acid (aka muriatic acid).  The concentration 0.1 molar is
0.1 moles of HCl in a Liter of solution (0.1 M HCl would be the correct
abbreviation).  A mole is the chemists way of measuring the amount of a
chemical present.

Before continuing, the saftey rules:  HCl is a strong acid and
concentrated solutions are very corrosive.  The HCl will also escape
solution as a gas and the fumes, when inhaled, will dissolve your
lungs.  Whne working with concentrated HCl solutions you must wear
safety glasses and work in a fume hood (or outside if necessary) Wearing
rubber gloves would also be a good idea.  If you spill, clean up with
large amounts of water.  Also, since it is an acid, it can be
neutralized by a base.  Use baking soda which will react with the HCl to
produce carbon dioxide, water and table salt.  Dilute soluions (such as
0.1 molar) are less of a problem (gloves and fume hoods not necessary),
but should still be handled with care.  It is also recommended that when
diluting acids that you add the acid to the water slowly while stirring,
however this is not so much a problem with HCl, especially at 0.1 M -
still it is a good habit to follow.

Now, back to the chemistry.  To calculate the volumes needed to dilute a
concentrated solution, use the equation:       C1 x V1 = C2 x V2
   C1 = the concentration of the original solution measured in
moles/Liter (Molar)
   C2 = 0.1 M (the desired final solution)
   V1 = the volume of the original solution you need to dilute
   V2 = the volume of the FINAL solution
note - V2 is not the volume of water you add.  The final volume will be
approx) the volume of the concentrated HCl plus the volume of water
added.  V1 and V2 can be measured in any units you want (mL, oz, cubic
cubits, etc) but they have to be the same.  Pick any V1 you want and
calculate the necessary V2 (or vice versa),  Now if the concentration of
the original HCl solution is not given in moles/Liter, then you will
have to do a unit conversion.  I would be glad to cover this in a
subsequent post if necessary.

As for the Roger's temperature post, he is right on (mostly).  It is
well known that most enzymes are more heat stable in a solution with a
high concentration of other dissolved solids.  Remember their natural
environment is inside a cell which is packed full of all sorts of
stuff.  One minor correction - his statemenst "Energy flows from high
temperature to low temperature" is the second law of thermodynamics, not
the first.

Finally, I would love the enter the yeast/oxygen debate but I will have
to review the literature first (Thanks for the Yeast Link reference).  I
teach general, organic chemistry and biochemistry and find this all very
interesting.

todd
carlsoto at river.it.gvsu.edu


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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 02:22:07 +1000
From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com>
Subject: yeast do so respire in wort!

Hey folks,
    Yeast do respire in wort. It is just nonsense to suggest otherwise. Yet
it has been repeated so often in HBD that everybody believes it these days.
But then again, why not believe everything you read in the world's best
fountain of knowledge on brewing (I wonder what the folks in the IOB, EBC or
MBAA would say if they heard that beauty!). O'Connor-Cox from South African
Breweries has estimated that about 5% of yeasts' energy is derived from
respiration early in the fermentation. This is not 0%. Not that it makes any
difference to anybody. They are just words.

Eric Panther.



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:50:21 -0500
From: "glyn crossno" <crossno at tnns.net>
Subject: Primary vs. Secondary revisited

Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> wrote:
>From my results I decided I liked the primary-only batch better and
shunned
>the use of a secondary.

I never did a split batch, but I pretty much decided the same thing.

>I like reusing yeast cakes.

Ditto.

>I don't like bottling and brewing in the same night.

BIG DITTO.

So my solution at this time is two fold.  Try to bottle a few days
before the next
batch and store yeast in jar in fridge.  I don't mind doing this for a
week or two.
Also I have bottled the day before and just let the yeast cake take a
day off.

Glyn Crossno
Estill Springs,  TN
- --
Have you hugged your bines today?




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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:18:04 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: to increase mash pH: Calcium Carbonate on top of grain?

Date sent:  30-JUL-1999 13:14:30 

I recently brewed a brown ale...got lazy, so upon finding the mash pH to be
about 4.9  I decided to sprinkle about 1/4 tsp calcium carbonate ON TOP OF
the grain, as I started to recirculate.  Was this :

a) dumb

b) smart

c) irrelevant

 to the issue of getting more yield?

 ..Darrell
<terminally intermediate home-brewer>
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/
_/Darrell Leavitt                              _/
_/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/
_/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu   _/
_/AX25 : n2ixl  at  kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa            _/
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Lifer <jliferjr at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Belgian Beers

I wouldn't describe any of the lambic or gueze beers I had a last week
as being dishwater flavor.  If anything, the gueze varied from slightly
sour to good and sour.  Really nice beers that I think most of us
homebrewers would find tasty.  The Kriek -cherry brews are pretty good
too, not quite what I would like to have to drink, but still good. 
BTW, I found the fresh cherries that are used in the beer in the local
grocery.  Being from down south, I don't have fresh cherries readily
available but I found that their flavor is very close to that of plum. 
Has anyone tried a "plum? beer?  
I would suggest anyone who gets any chance at all to visit Belgium to
do so.  Absolutely the next best thing to beer heaven (unless all you
like is SNPA) You would then be limited to Duvel and a couple of
"English Ales" made over there.
John In Mississippi
larson.jt at pg.com writes:

>A friend recently brought me two .75L bottles of beer from Belgium.  I
plan to
>try them soon, but would appreciate any description available.  One he
>described
>as "dishwater flavor" (Yum).  They are both made by "F. Boon".  One is
a
>"Kriek", the other a "Geuze".  Any help is appreciated.


_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com



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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:39:49 -0500
From: "Tommy P. Thompson, Jr." <tthompso at aismail.wustl.edu>
Subject: Botulism and Honey

I wan't to apologize for this non-brewing post, but when someone posts
information that might inadvertently harm a child I have to respond.

Swintosky, Michael D. wrote in HBD #3096

>Joy wrote in HBD #3093:
>
>" ..., honey contains bot and spores!"
>
>No references were cited for this statement, so I'll not bother doing
>research for mine.   : )
>
>The story, as I heard it, was that there was a case of botulism poisoning
>way back when.  As you might expect, honey was in the diet of unfortunate
>infant.  However, it was never proven that the honey was the source of the
>poisoning OR that an infant was any more likely to get botulism poisoning
>from honey as compared to other foods not specifically prepared to destroy
>the spores.  It is my understanding that the industry, wishing to preserve
>its pure and wholesome image, agreed to the position of warning against
>feeding honey to infants less than about a year old out of concern for the
>unknown alternative that a court might impose should a fight be
>unsuccessful.  Being an emotional issue, I think this was a wise course of
>action (if the story is true).  At any rate, I just wanted to pipe in that
>this issue is not as clear-cut as many people may well believe.  Botulism
>spores are found everywhere, including in honey.  
>
>Mike Swintosky, Beekeeper  (no PhD!)
>Dellroy Ohio
>4 hives
>One 1st and two 2nd place ribbons for extracted honey
>1999 Carroll County Fair,  July 19-25

If you are going to try to debunk current medical views, please do some 
research first.  Joy was correct in her assertion that honey has been 
linked with infant botulism.  
 
The following information was located by doing a search at the Centers
for Disease Control website.  The full text of the document is at
http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000307.htm.  I copied the 
relevent part below.

A case-control study performed by the California Department of Health
Services 
in 1976-1978 showed that infants with type B botulism were more likely
than 
controls to have been fed honey, and type B spores were identified in
implicated 
honey samples (1). This is the only exposure that is a clearly defined
risk 
factor for cases of infant botulism, and CDC has recommended that honey
not be 
fed to infants under 1 year of age (2). 

References 

   1.Arnon SS, Midura TF, Damus K, Thompson B, Wood RM, Chin J. Honey
and other 
     environmental risk factors for infant botulism. J Pediatr
1979;94:331-6. 

   2.CDC. Honey exposure and infant botulism. MMWR 1978;27:249-50, 255.

You seem to be a reasonable fellow.  I hope the references listed will
help 
convince you that it really is a problem.  If I were a beekeeper, I
would 
never risk someone misunderstanding your post and feeding an infant
honey.

If you would rather discuss it outside of the HBD, please feel free to
contact me
by e-mail.

Tommy

- -- 
Tommy P. Thompson, Jr.                           
Database Specialist
Administrative Information Systems
Washington University in St. Louis


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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:23:53 -0700
From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com>
Subject: Re: Equipment for all grain

"An immersion WC" sounds pretty nasty to me ; )

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 -Larry


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---