HOMEBREW Digest #3098 Mon 02 August 1999

[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]

		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  re: Orange peel ("Kensler, Paul")
  indoor brewery (MVachow)
  Location, location, location (Jeff Renner)
  cooking corn (Jeff Renner)
  Whirlpool/First Lager/Recipe (misaacs)
  RE: brew pub suggestions, Fort Wayne Indiana (Stevejac49)
  Citricidal, an effective organic sanitizer? ("Greg Mueller")
  p-cooking mash is just fine! ("Rich, Charles")
  re vendor question (Rick Lassabe)
  RE:  false bottoms for mash tuns ("Nigel Porter")
  two day brew session (Randy Ricchi)
  Re: Equipment for all grain (Gary D Hipple)
  hops diseases? (Donald.L.Gillespie)
  brewing programs. ("Todd & Sherrel Crane")
  Stuck bottlewasher ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Honey, bot, bot toxin, and spores ("Mr. Joy Hansen")
  Re:  New Yeast Propagation Method ("Poirier, Bob")
  RE: Honey Containing Beers (wrust)
  hose length (RCAYOT)
  Pressure Cooking Wort ("Scott Moore")
  Re:  Equipment for all grain ("Darren Gaylor")
  Bottle washer (Eric.Fouch)
  dilutions and temperature (t carlson)
  yeast do so respire in wort! ("Eric Panther")
  Primary vs. Secondary revisited ("glyn crossno")
  to increase mash pH: Calcium Carbonate on top of grain? (darrell.leavitt)
  RE: Belgian Beers (John Lifer)
  Botulism and Honey ("Tommy P. Thompson, Jr.")
  Re: Equipment for all grain ("Larry Maxwell")

* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy! * The HBD now hosts eight digests related to this and a few other hobbies. * Send an email note to majordomo at hbd.org with the word "lists" on one * line, and "help" on another (don't need the quotes) for a listing and * instructions for use. * * Late digest due to my screw-up! Sorry... ;-) Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!! To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org. **SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE REQUESTS MUST BE SENT FROM THE E-MAIL ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!** IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, the autoresponder and the SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE commands will fail! Contact brewery at hbd.org for information regarding the "Cat's Meow" Back issues are available via: HTML from... http://hbd.org Anonymous ftp from... ftp://hbd.org/pub/hbd/digests ftp://ftp.stanford.edu/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer AFS users can find it under... /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer COPYRIGHT for the Digest as a collection is currently held by hbd.org (Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen). Digests in their entirity CANNOT be reprinted/reproduced without this entire header section unless EXPRESS written permission has been obtained from hbd.org. Digests CANNOT be reprinted or reproduced in any format for redistribution unless said redistribution is at absolutely NO COST to the consumer. COPYRIGHT for individual posts within each Digest is held by the author. Articles cannot be extracted from the Digest and reprinted/reproduced without the EXPRESS written permission of the author. The author and HBD must be attributed as author and source in any such reprint/reproduction. (Note: QUOTING of items originally appearing in the Digest in a subsequent Digest is exempt from the above. Home brew clubs NOT associated with organizations having a commercial interest in beer or brewing may republish articles in their newsletters and/or websites provided that the author and HBD are attributed. ASKING first is still a great courtesy...) JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:15:15 -0500 From: "Kensler, Paul" <paul.kensler at wilcom.com> Subject: re: Orange peel Hi Fred, Regarding Curacao orange peel for Belgian style beers, the Curacao orange peel I have found is always the entire dried peel, not just the zest. Sometimes it comes in big long strips - the whole peel in one chunk. Other times it comes as little tiny bits. I seem to have gotten more flavor out of the first kind. I usually get this type from St. Pat's in Austin, TX (www.stpats.com) <http://www.stpats.com)> . The other kind is readily available at any homebrew shop that carries the "Brewers Garden" (I think) brand of special ingredients. But the kind that comes in little tiny bits doesn't seem to be as fresh or as flavorful in my experience. The Curacao oranges are much more bitter and "herbal" or "spicy" in character than regular eating oranges. Although I have used regular oranges with success, there is a definite difference there. I have used fresh zest from oranges, and regular dried orange peels (from the bulk food / bulk spices section of a local organic foods store) - the fresh zest gives a more "orangey" flavor and aroma, very fresh, very fruity. The dried peels are a little less "orangey", and more of a general citrus flavor. They give some bitterness too, since they include the pith (the meaty white part of the peel) as well as the zest. They are also less intense in flavor and aroma than the fresh zest. I have tried dried zest from the grocery store spice rack and as far as I can tell its nothing more than orange-colored bits of rice or something - maybe I just got a stale bottle, because it contributed nothing. Anyway, you can use just about any sort of orange peel you want - fresh zest or whole peel, dried peel, or dried Curacao peel, but they will all give you different results. For what its worth, if you can find the bulk dried orange peel (at a natural foods store), they might also have dried lemon peel which is nice to use sometimes too. Since we're on the subject of Belgian spices, I would highly recommend using fresh coriander seeds and grinding it yourself, instead of using pre-ground coriander from the grocery store. What a difference! Have fun - Paul Kensler Plano, TX Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:38:29 -0500 From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us Subject: indoor brewery Donovan: I recommend that you search the HBD archives for information on indoor brewing set-ups. This topic is one of those reoccurring "lines" on the HBD; you'll find the whole gamut of responses, including some that seem entirely reasonable--largely involving CO monitors and exhaust hoods. There are also articles in The Brewery's library on this topic. I also recommend you consider one other line of thought. Although your kegging gear, fridge/freezer fermentor, grain storage, etc. obviously belong in your new indoor space, there are some distinct advantages to brewing outdoors, particularly if you have easy access to the basement from the outdoors. Number one on the list of outdoor brewing advantages is ease of clean-up. When I moved my operation outdoors (from the kitchen), I instantly knocked an hour off my brew session time. With the garden hose always at hand, brewing gear is easily rinsed and scrubbed as one finishes with it, and the garden and lawn profit in a peripheral kind of way. Now I suppose if you had entire little room in the basement for brewing, with a drain in the floor, you might get the same advantage. If not, you'll have to haul the gear outside to be scrubbed or encounter the inconvenience of trying to scrub out a 15 gallon brewpot in a little utility sink making sure not to hose down the ski gear and the boxes of memorabilia and the baby clothes, etc. Second advantage of brewing outdoors is the outdoors. When I put in the balance the number of blistering hot or drizzly brew days (insert snowy or sleety days here if you live in a northern clime) to the number of stunning, clement brew days, I'm alway happy to be brewing outdoors. Picture yourself schlepping around your dark, dank basement on a glorious November day. . . . Mike New Orleans, LA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 10:52:43 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: Location, location, location Recently many of us, including me, have been having fun with my semi-annual exhortation that we include our locations in our posts. Then Donovan <dlambright at socket.net> just gave a reason to do this when he wrote: >(there's not even a club around here) We don't know where "here" is. There might be another brewer nearby who'd love to get together for a beer or two if only he (she?) knew. You could both benefit. Other reasons include other HBDers being able to help with regional problems such as water chemistry, ingredient and equipment availability, shared rides to events, club formation, and just plain HBD community. As always, Rennerian coordinates are optional. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 11:44:54 -0400 From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu> Subject: cooking corn "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com> wrote >The one thing I did not find out is when cooking corn >how do I know when I am done? Good point. I note that I just posted >standard commercial (and my) procedure is to mash the >grits first with ~30% as much malt as grits, then boil for 20-40 minutes, I guess I should have written 20-40 minutes depending on grit size. I would think that 40 minutes is minimum for grits/polenta. You could get away with 20 minutes for fine corn meal. Wahl and Henius' _American Handy Book_ (1902 ed., p. 716, see http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/) recommends 75 minutes for grits, 45 for meal, and that previous recommendations of 30 minutes had resulted in less extract. However, John Zappa (yes, he's a cousin), head brewer at Point Brewery in Wisconsin told me that they boild their grits far less than 75 minutes. I think he said 30 or 45 minutes. I generally boil coarse corn meal 35-45 minutes. You can't overdo it, and it might result in more malty flavors if it goes longer. You can see a gradual breakdown of the structure of the grits or meal as the starch granules swell and rupture. Let us know how this first CAP turns out when you get home. Jeff -=-=-=-=- Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu "One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 08:57:35 -0700 From: misaacs <misaacs at bigfoot.com> Subject: Whirlpool/First Lager/Recipe Hello, all. First, my problem I have a 13.5 gallon pot in which I brew 10 gallon batches. I use a immersion chiller and have installed a drilled manifold attached to my spigot for whole-hop/trub filter. The first couple (extract) batches everything worked fine, but my all-grain ones have thrown so much junk it clogs the holes. The exiting cooled wort slows to a trickle. I have not tried to remove the manifold and whirlpool - I guess I have to remove the chiller after cooling, too. Any advice? Second, I just plugged in my new beer refrigerator - woo-hoo! I have no beer to serve at the moment, so I was planning on buying an external temperature controller and fermenting some lagers. My chiller only gets the wort down to 70F. I don't plan on adding a pre-chiller yet, so I guess I chill it further in the fridge overnight then pitch. After ferment, I will slowly lower the temp to lager and later serve. What happens to those in kegs in a month when I ferment again, raising the temp to 50F or so? I Any advice regarding ferment temps, schedules and basic lagering help would be appreciated. Finally, what should I brew! I do a single infusion mash in a 10 gallon cooler. I buy hops in 8oz packages, so sharing hops between recipes would be good. I would love to see your all-grain Anchor Steam clones and Vienna recipes as well. Thanks for all the advice to this point. I would not be all-graining 10 gallon batches to kegs without the info found here. Mike Son of a Son of a Aler, misaacs at bigfoot.com Tryin' to reason with "Hurricane Weizen" Jolly Mon Brewery, San Ramon, CA Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:31:42 EDT From: Stevejac49 at aol.com Subject: RE: brew pub suggestions, Fort Wayne Indiana Mark, Since your friend Ed will be going to Indy, he may want to stop by Fort Wayne on his way to East Lansing. Mad Anthony Brewing Company features fine craft brews including a blond lager, amber lager, pale ale, English brown ale, porter, Hefeweizen, and a raspberry beer. They also sport an excellent menu as well as being co-located with three other restaurants that serve their beer; the Munchie Emporium, the Crawfish Club and Winfrieds German fare. Mad Anthony's is located at the corner of Broadway and Taylor streets. Hope this helps and interests Ed enough to stop by and sample some fine food and beer. Steve Jackson Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 14:04:04 PDT From: "Greg Mueller" <brew_meister at hotmail.com> Subject: Citricidal, an effective organic sanitizer? I have used citricidal as dietary supplement in the past and I am wondering if the product can be used as an organic sanitizer. Citricidal is an natural cyto-active quaternary compound synthesized from the seed and pulp of certified organically grown grapefruit. One manufacturer claims Grapefruit Seed Extract (GSE) is used as an antibiotic, antiseptic, disinfectant, and as a preservative in food and cosmetics. Grapefruit Seed Extract is also non-toxic, environmentally safe, and quickly bio-degradable.It causes no side effects and is often dramatically less expensive than existing treatments or chemicals for similiar applications, whether human, animal,or agricultural in scope. Does anyone have any experience with citricidal or can prove its effectiveness in brewing applications? _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 15:48:17 -0700 From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com> Subject: p-cooking mash is just fine! Once again brewster Davie offers his thoughts over-positively and errs. This time regarding pressure cooking mash and wort. In HBD #3095: >BTW always be very careful to use wort ( not a >mash) which has already been boiled before >you put it into the pressure cooker and use an >internal pan or bowl to contain it. The blanket sweep of his statement is what is in error, specifically the "(not a mash)", bit. Pressure cooking mash (yes, mash!) is a *wonderful* way to prepare decoction fractions and is easily done safely. Never say never, Davie, and never say always! I have p-cooked both wort (un-preboiled) and mash many times, safely, and the key is to use an inner, LIDDED vessel. This is prudent when p-cooking any grains, especially legumes (peas, beans, etc.). Davie seems to be encouraging cooking directly in the pressure cooker which is not such a good idea. It will scorch and it won't heat uniformly, from steam, as with an inner vessel. Pressure cooking decoc fractions and cereal adjuncts 'hele-rocks' for many reasons, not least of which is that it spares hand stirring a stiff fraction over open heat (my arm hurts after about ten minutes of that!) and is quicker. Other good reasons are fuel economy; once up to pressure it cooks for as long as you wish on a matchhead sized flame. There's also no risk of scorching. Flavor is probably the nicest reason though, since you can develop malty flavors in quantities unavailable at boiling temps. However, you don't even have to take it that far. I usually decoct Czech Pilsner fractions for only about 5 minutes at 10-pounds just to gelatinize starch. The result is similar to a fifteen minute handstirred cooking, and doesn't darken things out of style. Likewise for cooking cereal adjuncts like corn. If you should miss caramelized notes from not handstirring, just reduce a small amount of wort in a pan to about 1/2 volume and add back to the boil. You don't need much, say about a pint reduced to a cup in a twelve-gallon collection or even less, just to style or taste. The point that Davie could have made more clearly was regarding wort foaming, and on paper seems like a good hack. If you feel you must fill your inner vessel very full, then pre-boiling to minimize foamup may help but I wouldn't recommend filling it full enough to risk that in the first place. I made a good inner vessel from an old 3-gallon metal soup pot. Crush the side handles close to the side with a C-clamp or a vise and add stiff wire bails to them so you can lift it out after cooking. >DB: Do not use hops in this procedure to avoid plugging of the vent. Wrong to put it so baldly, Davie. It certainly can be done safely in a lidded inner vessel, not overfull. I don't recommend it because the effect is *so* extreme. Use less a tenth of the boiling hops you'd expect and you may still overdo it, even when added back to the main collection. In fixing Davie's remarks I don't wish to make p-cooking sound as simple as boiling water either. One probably can't overestimate the violence of pressure steam. Have good tools (p-cooker/canner) and know how to use them. Practice with canning wort yeast starters. Try dropping a piece of a hop pellet in one, bang it and taste the result. Try p-cooking one for 30-40 minutes, taste the result. Try cooking a jar full of stiff mash, after a 158F rest, or your decoc rest(s) of choice, p-cook for 30-40 minutes and taste. Keep notes and please tell the rest of us about your discoveries! Be well, do good wort, ... Charles Rich Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 22:47:12 -0500 From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re vendor question Bruce and Amber Carpenter asked about Beer Beer and More Beer, I happen to be a satisfied customer, that did have a chance to visit with them on July 22nd. They were just as friendly in person as they have always been when I ordered from them. I think all one has to do is look at their web site and give them one try to be hooked with their service and price. Rick Lassabe "Bayrat's Bayou Degradable Brewery" Bay Saint Louis, Ms.t Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:21:41 +0100 From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk> Subject: RE: false bottoms for mash tuns Joe Gibbens wrote: >I'm building a new 10 gal mash tun based on a Gott water cooler. >Does anyone have any tricks for sealing the false bottom to the >sides and still being able to remove it? Thanks. Try getting a piece of food grade tubing (syphon tube) that is long enough to go round the circumference of your false bottom. Slice along the length of the tube to open in up. Slide this over the edge of your false bottom, all around. This seems to work nicely for sealing. Nigel Porter Not brewing in Guildford, UK 'cos its too hot Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:59:00 -0400 From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> Subject: two day brew session Matt Comstock asked about two day brew sessions, where you mash and sparge one night, and boil and pitch the yeast the next day. I first wrote about doing this sometime back in early '97 or so, and since then a few others have posted that they use the same technique. There are three concerns that I have seen posted about this technique: 1)contamination from letting warm wort sit overnight. 2)Hot side aeration. 3)and now, DMS. Let's take the first concern, contamination. We have all seen many posts here about the woefully long lag times that come from underpitching yeast. Just pitching a swollen Wyeast pack into a fermenter without building it up first can result in several days wait before any signs of fermentation appear. That Wyeast pack has a hell of a lot more "live stuff" in it than you will have in your wort after mashing and sparging, at least if you're careful about cleaning your equipment right after using it and don't allow molds to grow in the false bottom, tubes, etc. Unless you have spiders and snakes crawling around in your equipment there won't be enough bacteria to do any noticeable damage to your wort by the time you boil it the following day, and any bacteria present will be killed in the boil. As for hot side aeration, all I can tell you is it doesn't happen in my experience. I know this has been a hotly debated subject here on the digest, and I suppose if you really splash your wort around while you are mashing and or sparging, you may have a problem which could be exacerbated by leaving the wort sit overnight. Myself, I mash in one vessel and then carefully transfer to my lauter tun with a quart measuring cup, being careful not to splash. The drain tube from the lauter tun is long enough to reach to the bottom of the collection pot, and I am careful about not splashing when I recirculate. I have a hunch that people with hot side aeration problems are careless during the mashing /lautering stage. As for DMS formation, I also wondered about that when I first started using the two day technique, but I reasoned, as Matt did, that it would be boiled off the next day. As it stands, I have never noticed DMS in the wort on day two, even before the boil. Yes, I do know what DMS smells and tastes like. I have deliberately slow cooled AFTER a boil (covering the pot first)in order to develop it, and let me tell you, that works. Could it be that DMS does not form at mash/sparge temps and requires boiling temps to form? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 06:20:15 -0500 From: Gary D Hipple <ghipple at mmmpcc.org> Subject: Re: Equipment for all grain Russ asks about all-grain lautering - I use a 10 gal. Gott (Rubbermaid) drinking water cooler with a Phil's Phalse Bottom and sparge are. I cut 3 notches in the lip of the cooler so the sparge arm "pipes" lock into the groves. I also drilled a hole in the center of the lid so the sparge water feed tube sticks up through the lid. This way I can keep the lid on if want to. It can be difficult to "see" into the lauter, but I can lift the edge and peer in with a flash light to see the sparge arm motion and water level on the grain bed. I keep meaning to install an external sight glass, but have done so. I've never had a stuck sparge with this system (knock on wood!), but that also has a lot to do with grist. Crushed grain is less likely to become stuck than "floured." As far as water, I contacted my local water utility and requested a "subscription" to the monthly water analysis report. I would not recommend "soft water" since many essential brewing elements are substituted with sodium in many conventional water softening systems. I get your sparge water "upstream" from the water softener. All-grain brewing takes more time and patience, but it's worth the extra effort... IMHO. G Hipple 44 deg 55 mins-N 93 deg 5 mins-W Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:19:53 -0400 From: Donald.L.Gillespie at am.pnu.com Subject: hops diseases? Help. I 'm growing hops for the 2nd year. Last year I had a good harvest from my Cascades, but nothing from my Goldings, they were too small. This year, they are growing great and I also planted some Nugget About a month ago, I started having yellowing and slow browning of the bottom leaves on the Cascade and Goldings, which was creeping upwards. I had already trimmed off the bottom 2 ft of leaves, and I gave them a spray of garden safe fungicide (by Ortho but I can't remember the name) thinking it was a fungus with the hot humid weather. Plus, I had been watering with a sprinkler! I didn't seem to help, so I applied a second spray 10 days later, and quit sprinkling. That seems to have helped. But now, one whole mound of my Goldings has turned rusty brown, nearly overnight. From the ground to 10-12 ft. up. The vine and leaves are brown, but not dead. I will cut them down tonight, and burn them, but has anyone seen this before? I haven't read of anything like that. I can only hope it doesn't spread. Also, the Japanese beetles are munching my hops. I don't like to spray too often with pesticide, any suggestions for them. Insecticidal soap doesn't seem to affect them, and Sevin doesn't seem to work for very long either. please reply to dlgilles at net-link.net, thanks Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 02:57:16 -0000 From: "Todd & Sherrel Crane" <toddandsherrel at netzero.net> Subject: brewing programs. I know this is not exactly a brewing question, But I think this is the best place for me to look for help. I am looking for some advice. I want to attend a brewing program in the next year. I wonder if any one has any advice. I am leaning towards U.C. Davis or American Brewers Guild. I would consider Seibel, but sense I am in Arizona, that is farther then I want to go. My question I guess is which is a better program? I understand everyone will have a different opinion, but I need help. I also know U.C. Davis offers the "foundation" program. I wonder if anyone has attended this and could tell be more about it. I am not necessarily planing on going to work as a brewer, But sense I work in the beer business, I think formal training could be helpful. Thanks in advance Todd A. Crane toddandsherrel at netzero.net ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:20:37 -0400 From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net> Subject: Stuck bottlewasher Philip J Wilcox wrote: (snip) I had it attached to the hose outside for while and then it sat on the porch (outdoors). I figured its all brass, its not going to rust, why take it inside. I went to use it again last night and attached it to the hose and nothing was getting through the thing. The L that releases the water still moves freely, but no water was coming through. Any ideas on how to "Unclog" one of these things???? (snip) I'm in southern Virginia and there is a moderate size wasp finds every tube like opening to fill with mud and larvae. I think the wasp places an insect with it's egg. The combination of mud, insect or youngster, etc. completely plugs the tube. You mentioned that you left the washer on the back porch. Is it open to flying vermin? I recommend using a small flexible wire to work through the washer from the hose fitting end. A small loop at the end of the wire will scour the walls if it is twisted during insertion. Once you can feel the probe hit the valve, you can back flush the washer and the debris should be forced out. Don't use a probe that can break and exhaserbate the problem. I've seen spider webs in tubes like this that were tough enough to seal the pressure of a propane tank! Wasp nest or spider web, either one will block any tube! My opinion is presented without scientific basis - there's no evidence that the wasp or the spider exists anywhere in the U.S.A. Joy Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:13:06 -0400 From: "Mr. Joy Hansen" <joytbrew at patriot.net> Subject: Honey, bot, bot toxin, and spores Beekeeper Michael Swintosky wrote: (Joy write: " ..., honey contains bot and spores!") No references were cited for this statement, so I'll not bother doing research for mine. : ) The story, as I heard it, was that there was a case of botulism poisoning way back when. As you might expect, honey was in the diet of unfortunate infant. However, it was never proven that the honey was the source of the poisoning OR that an infant was any more likely to get botulism poisoning from honey as compared to other foods not specifically prepared to destroy the spores. (snip) Botulism spores are found everywhere, including in honey. (snip) Mike Swintosky, Beekeeper (no PhD!) Dellroy Ohio 4 hives One 1st and two 2nd place ribbons for extracted honey 1999 Carroll County Fair, July 19-25 Joy replies: Sorry for not researching my comment; however, natures best does contain bot spores that can and will vegetate given the right environment. Certainly, an infant formula, hot water sanitized will contain viable bot spores. A refrigeration temperature of 40 degrees Fahrenheit will NOT prevent the vegetation of bot spores in formula or foods. It's slowed, but not prevented. A pH of less than 4.25 would, in combination with temperature could prevent vegetation. I've been out of the business for many years; however, as I recall, bot toxin was proposed as one of the many causes of infant death syndrome. Baby meat foods were to contain nitrite to retard the growth of bot ; however, nitrite was classed as a potential carcinogen and removed from many foods, especially baby food. I recall reading that the gut of a newborn and formula fed infants have a differing pH than older infants (how old? - don't know). Drinking Home brew prevents documentation of my opinions! OTOH, the pH of mead is too low to allow bot spores to vegetate, so drink up. Then think about the risk of feeding non-sterilized honey to your infant. I certainly won't do it. While you are drinking and thinking, you might consider the presence of aflatoxin in honey? It certainly exists on grapes and cereal grains and will be present in the finished brew that is not distilled. And what about pesticides, herbicides, and fungicides that don't kill the worker bee and are returned to the hive and stored in the comb? :) Do you test the honey? Those nasty nitrosamines contained in the roasted barley malt, etc. are pretty potent carcinogens! The presence of dangerous additives to alcoholic are kept low key by collusion between the FDA and the industry they regulate. Unfortunately, the BATF allows few declarations on beverage labels. Keep the faith and keep those bees doing their thing. Joy An insufferable opinionated home brewer having fun! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:33:35 -0500 From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com> Subject: Re: New Yeast Propagation Method Greetings!! In HBD #3096, Friday, July 30, 1999, Alessandro Calamide provides a link to a website which discusses yeast propagation via continuous, incremental feeding, and continuous aeration. How could we, on a homebrew scale, incrementally feed a yeast starter? Could it be as simple as setting up a continuous drip of wort into the starter? I would think that maintaining a sterile, infection free supply of wort would be the greatest challenge: Is there a vessel which could be sterilized (along with the wort) in a pressure cooker, from which the wort could later be dispensed? Or maybe this technique of yeast propagation is not realistic at the homebrew level... Bob P. East Haven, CT Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 08:46:35 -0500 From: wrust at ralston.com Subject: RE: Honey Containing Beers Hi All, I thought I'd comment on Matthew Comstock's post (#3096) regarding: 'Honey containing beers and bottle conditioning' >I thought I'd pass along a recent observation about recent batches I've >made using honey to make up a large portion of the fermentables. >Without posting actual recipes I used, I made a 'honey stout' and a >'honey ginger ale' loosely following Papazian recipes. I bottled after >two week primaries (no secondary). I've made quite a bit of mead. I'm assuming you are making the carbonated varienty... Honey can take quite a bit longer to fully ferment out. I would primary for no more than 7 days, if you are using fruit, or until initial foaming dies down, and secondary for at least 6 weeks if you're using large amounts of honey. If you're using Papazia's book, check out his instructions for Barkshack Ginger Mead. It has pretty reliable results. For more info on mead, check out the Mead Lover's Digest. You can probably get it from Deja News. I can't recall the listserver address, sorry. Oops, I almost forgot. You'll also probably want to use yeast nutrient if you don't have much (or any malt) in the recipe. Also, thanks for the info on freezing malt (those of you who replied). Bill Rust, BS, BA, CSA, BJCP, LMNOP Return to table of contents
Date: 30 Jul 1999 08:25:04 -0400 From: RCAYOT at solutia.com Subject: hose length Steve Alexander has a great discussion, but I see a problem waaaay in the beginning: "dP = L (in feet) * 0.56psi + 0.43 psi [ 1/4" ID tubing, 2.5 fl.oz/sec ] (where the 0.43 psi is the kinetic term)" You have an equation which contains a sum of factors with different units, ft*psi + psi won't work, better repost with correction! also: "differential (dP above) is proportional to v_2." don't see any squared term where does this come from? Not saying you're wrong, you just don't make a case like that! Keep on brewing! Roger Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 09:54:28 -0400 From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com> Subject: Pressure Cooking Wort I just ordered my 22 quart pressure canner/cooker to assist in my quest for "malt sandwich" beer. I plan on p-cooking the first runnings and I have a few questions. I checked the archives and recent threads but am still unclear about a few things. Is it advisable to put the wort directly in the cooker or are there better methods to avoid scorching? Is there an advantage to separating the hot break when I put it back in the kettle or should I just dump in everything? Pressure cooking the wort may turn out to be the best advice I've ever gotten and the idea was born here on the HBD. My thanks to both Charlies and others for their inspired thought. Scott Moore (still unnamed brewery) Medina, Ohio Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 07:10:13 -0700 From: "Darren Gaylor" <dwgaylor at pacifier.com> Subject: Re: Equipment for all grain Russ asks, "What is the consensus on a lautertun?? I have been told to go with a gott cooler with an "easymasher", my brewpot with an "em", a square cooler with slotted pipes, or the zapap system. What are the pros and cons of these systems?" Consensus? On the HBD? Please. I've used the square cooler method for several years. You can pick one up for $15, another few bucks for some CVPC pipe and fittings (I prefer this to copper, having used both), and you're mashing. I use another cooler as a hot liquor tank. If I'm making multiple batches (usually the case), I use some "stock" coolers to mash in and transfer the mash to the modified cooler for lautering. This lets me make three 10 gallon batches of beer with one lauter tun and two kettles in about 8 hours. This system works well for both 5 and 10 gallon batches (not that I mess with 5 anymore). I would call it inexpensive, but not "cheap". I'd say that all the methods you listed would make fine beer. I'd guess you listed them in order of cost (cost of brewpot excluded) and popularity. Darren Gaylor Vancouver, WA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:13:00 -0400 From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com Subject: Bottle washer Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1999 09:07:54 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Stuck bottlewasher Dear HBD, Has anyone had their bottle washer get stuck before? I dont remember the brand on mine but it was manufactured in Traverse City, Michigan. I had it attached to the hose outside for while and then it sat on the porch (outdoors). I figured its all brass, its not going to rust, why take it inside. I went to use it again last night and attached it to the hose and nothing was getting through the thing. The L that relases the water still moves freely, but no water was coming through. Any ideas on how to "Unclog" one of these things???? Phil Wilcox Poison Frog Home Brewer Warden-Prison City Brewers In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium... Phil- Check that puppy for earwigs. These little insidious bastards love to find small wet places (........never mind........) to hang out. They used to clog my oscillating sprinkler from time to time. A good backflush, if you could figger out how to do it, would be in order. Eric Fouch, PDTL "..but you never know, until you know." -Dr. Pivo Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:29:17 -0400 From: t carlson <carlsoto at river.it.gvsu.edu> Subject: dilutions and temperature In response to Jack's dilution question, 0.1 molar hcl is a solution of hydrocloric acid (aka muriatic acid). The concentration 0.1 molar is 0.1 moles of HCl in a Liter of solution (0.1 M HCl would be the correct abbreviation). A mole is the chemists way of measuring the amount of a chemical present. Before continuing, the saftey rules: HCl is a strong acid and concentrated solutions are very corrosive. The HCl will also escape solution as a gas and the fumes, when inhaled, will dissolve your lungs. Whne working with concentrated HCl solutions you must wear safety glasses and work in a fume hood (or outside if necessary) Wearing rubber gloves would also be a good idea. If you spill, clean up with large amounts of water. Also, since it is an acid, it can be neutralized by a base. Use baking soda which will react with the HCl to produce carbon dioxide, water and table salt. Dilute soluions (such as 0.1 molar) are less of a problem (gloves and fume hoods not necessary), but should still be handled with care. It is also recommended that when diluting acids that you add the acid to the water slowly while stirring, however this is not so much a problem with HCl, especially at 0.1 M - still it is a good habit to follow. Now, back to the chemistry. To calculate the volumes needed to dilute a concentrated solution, use the equation: C1 x V1 = C2 x V2 C1 = the concentration of the original solution measured in moles/Liter (Molar) C2 = 0.1 M (the desired final solution) V1 = the volume of the original solution you need to dilute V2 = the volume of the FINAL solution note - V2 is not the volume of water you add. The final volume will be approx) the volume of the concentrated HCl plus the volume of water added. V1 and V2 can be measured in any units you want (mL, oz, cubic cubits, etc) but they have to be the same. Pick any V1 you want and calculate the necessary V2 (or vice versa), Now if the concentration of the original HCl solution is not given in moles/Liter, then you will have to do a unit conversion. I would be glad to cover this in a subsequent post if necessary. As for the Roger's temperature post, he is right on (mostly). It is well known that most enzymes are more heat stable in a solution with a high concentration of other dissolved solids. Remember their natural environment is inside a cell which is packed full of all sorts of stuff. One minor correction - his statemenst "Energy flows from high temperature to low temperature" is the second law of thermodynamics, not the first. Finally, I would love the enter the yeast/oxygen debate but I will have to review the literature first (Thanks for the Yeast Link reference). I teach general, organic chemistry and biochemistry and find this all very interesting. todd carlsoto at river.it.gvsu.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 1999 02:22:07 +1000 From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com> Subject: yeast do so respire in wort! Hey folks, Yeast do respire in wort. It is just nonsense to suggest otherwise. Yet it has been repeated so often in HBD that everybody believes it these days. But then again, why not believe everything you read in the world's best fountain of knowledge on brewing (I wonder what the folks in the IOB, EBC or MBAA would say if they heard that beauty!). O'Connor-Cox from South African Breweries has estimated that about 5% of yeasts' energy is derived from respiration early in the fermentation. This is not 0%. Not that it makes any difference to anybody. They are just words. Eric Panther. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:50:21 -0500 From: "glyn crossno" <crossno at tnns.net> Subject: Primary vs. Secondary revisited Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com> wrote: >From my results I decided I liked the primary-only batch better and shunned >the use of a secondary. I never did a split batch, but I pretty much decided the same thing. >I like reusing yeast cakes. Ditto. >I don't like bottling and brewing in the same night. BIG DITTO. So my solution at this time is two fold. Try to bottle a few days before the next batch and store yeast in jar in fridge. I don't mind doing this for a week or two. Also I have bottled the day before and just let the yeast cake take a day off. Glyn Crossno Estill Springs, TN - -- Have you hugged your bines today? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 13:18:04 -0500 (EST) From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu Subject: to increase mash pH: Calcium Carbonate on top of grain? Date sent: 30-JUL-1999 13:14:30 I recently brewed a brown ale...got lazy, so upon finding the mash pH to be about 4.9 I decided to sprinkle about 1/4 tsp calcium carbonate ON TOP OF the grain, as I started to recirculate. Was this : a) dumb b) smart c) irrelevant to the issue of getting more yield? ..Darrell <terminally intermediate home-brewer> _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ _/ _/Darrell Leavitt _/ _/INternet: leavitdg at splava.cc.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AMpr.net: n2ixl at amgate.net.plattsburgh.edu _/ _/AX25 : n2ixl at kd2aj.#nny.ny.usa _/ _/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 10:29:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John Lifer <jliferjr at yahoo.com> Subject: RE: Belgian Beers I wouldn't describe any of the lambic or gueze beers I had a last week as being dishwater flavor. If anything, the gueze varied from slightly sour to good and sour. Really nice beers that I think most of us homebrewers would find tasty. The Kriek -cherry brews are pretty good too, not quite what I would like to have to drink, but still good. BTW, I found the fresh cherries that are used in the beer in the local grocery. Being from down south, I don't have fresh cherries readily available but I found that their flavor is very close to that of plum. Has anyone tried a "plum? beer? I would suggest anyone who gets any chance at all to visit Belgium to do so. Absolutely the next best thing to beer heaven (unless all you like is SNPA) You would then be limited to Duvel and a couple of "English Ales" made over there. John In Mississippi larson.jt at pg.com writes: >A friend recently brought me two .75L bottles of beer from Belgium. I plan to >try them soon, but would appreciate any description available. One he >described >as "dishwater flavor" (Yum). They are both made by "F. Boon". One is a >"Kriek", the other a "Geuze". Any help is appreciated. _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 12:39:49 -0500 From: "Tommy P. Thompson, Jr." <tthompso at aismail.wustl.edu> Subject: Botulism and Honey I wan't to apologize for this non-brewing post, but when someone posts information that might inadvertently harm a child I have to respond. Swintosky, Michael D. wrote in HBD #3096 >Joy wrote in HBD #3093: > >" ..., honey contains bot and spores!" > >No references were cited for this statement, so I'll not bother doing >research for mine. : ) > >The story, as I heard it, was that there was a case of botulism poisoning >way back when. As you might expect, honey was in the diet of unfortunate >infant. However, it was never proven that the honey was the source of the >poisoning OR that an infant was any more likely to get botulism poisoning >from honey as compared to other foods not specifically prepared to destroy >the spores. It is my understanding that the industry, wishing to preserve >its pure and wholesome image, agreed to the position of warning against >feeding honey to infants less than about a year old out of concern for the >unknown alternative that a court might impose should a fight be >unsuccessful. Being an emotional issue, I think this was a wise course of >action (if the story is true). At any rate, I just wanted to pipe in that >this issue is not as clear-cut as many people may well believe. Botulism >spores are found everywhere, including in honey. > >Mike Swintosky, Beekeeper (no PhD!) >Dellroy Ohio >4 hives >One 1st and two 2nd place ribbons for extracted honey >1999 Carroll County Fair, July 19-25 If you are going to try to debunk current medical views, please do some research first. Joy was correct in her assertion that honey has been linked with infant botulism. The following information was located by doing a search at the Centers for Disease Control website. The full text of the document is at http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000307.htm. I copied the relevent part below. A case-control study performed by the California Department of Health Services in 1976-1978 showed that infants with type B botulism were more likely than controls to have been fed honey, and type B spores were identified in implicated honey samples (1). This is the only exposure that is a clearly defined risk factor for cases of infant botulism, and CDC has recommended that honey not be fed to infants under 1 year of age (2). References 1.Arnon SS, Midura TF, Damus K, Thompson B, Wood RM, Chin J. Honey and other environmental risk factors for infant botulism. J Pediatr 1979;94:331-6. 2.CDC. Honey exposure and infant botulism. MMWR 1978;27:249-50, 255. You seem to be a reasonable fellow. I hope the references listed will help convince you that it really is a problem. If I were a beekeeper, I would never risk someone misunderstanding your post and feeding an infant honey. If you would rather discuss it outside of the HBD, please feel free to contact me by e-mail. Tommy - -- Tommy P. Thompson, Jr. Database Specialist Administrative Information Systems Washington University in St. Louis Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1999 11:23:53 -0700 From: "Larry Maxwell" <Larry at bmhm.com> Subject: Re: Equipment for all grain "An immersion WC" sounds pretty nasty to me ; ) Sorry, I couldn't resist. -Larry Return to table of contents
[Prev HBD] [Index] [Next HBD] [Back]
HTML-ized on 08/02/99, by HBD2HTML version 1.2 by K.F.L.
webmaster at hbd.org, KFL, 10/9/96