---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Cats and Conicals ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Outrageous Accusation!!! ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Re:  Wet T-shirt Calculations (Matthew Comstock)
  Re: Yeast lifespans (David Lamotte)
  Immersion chiller idea ("Menegoni, Lee")
  Old yeast, one data point (Rod Prather)
  Dark mild licorice flavor (BioCoat)
  Praticality ("Paul Niebergall")
  Heat of vaporization, Carolina on my mind, Translations (Dave Burley)
  Fermometer accuracy / Water use in brewing ("Christopher Farley")
  Wet t-shirt calculations (Matthew Comstock)
  zones and proteins (Bryan Gros)
  Sight Glass for Gott ("Dana H. Edgell")
  Re: wasting water (LaBorde, Ronald)
  First time post / Yeast Question / Pivo/ et all ("Lee, Brian")
  Science vs. Art (Dan Cole)
  Low Carb Diets & Beer (Matt Smiley)
  commercial p-cooking ("David Kerr")
  Re: Malty, oxidized / Faultline (Spencer W Thomas)
  hypothetical situation ("Paul Niebergall")
  Homebrewing equipment for sale in Boston area (Rich Lenihan)
  CFC in FLA (Debi Lake)
  sure you have Phil! ("Eric Panther")
  Re:  Reynolds numbers in Re; pumps ("Sean Richens")
  **Increase Sales w\4 Powerful Words** (benw24s)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 18:27:46 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Cats and Conicals

Richard Hooper, also operating under the name of King Pivo obviously is
feeling pretty excited about his conical fermenter. I would say the "king"
is enjoying a few brews during posting. And why not? I must admit I
sometimes get up in the morning and nervously check the computer to see what
I have written and to who!

The "king" asks of me only a simple question:
>How do I keep cats out of the brew, Phil ?<

It is my opinion that any cat seen within reasonable proximity of the brew
house can be considered to be acting with intent, or thinking of acting with
intent! Punitive action is essential!!

If I had my way again I would keep such action below 15000 rpm to avoid the
dreadful scolding I got on the HBD. Or just not write about it. Sorry Dave,
only joking. Alan, is this where I should put the "smiley" in?

Cheers
Phil Yates





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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:15:59 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Outrageous Accusation!!!

Doc Panther writes:
>Ever wondered why there are so many more happy sheep in Australia? Because
the Australians are more adept at the art of cunnilingus than their
trans-Tasman brethren!<

Hey Doc, I have been accused of many a thing but I aint never pocked my
tongue at a sheep!! Send this sort of suggestion to the Yocto Bent Dick
Brewery. Ask them for a catalogue on sausage shooting. Sorry, I can't help
but think that if Brian saw the video that I saw, he wouldn't fancy eating
sausage with his beer!

Cheers
Phil Yates





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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  Wet T-shirt Calculations

If you're interested, here's a site about evaporative cooling,

http://chemengineer.about.com/library/weekly   -snip-
/aa012599.htm?rf=dp&COB=home&TMog=98885466010346&Mint=14261966975427

Piece it together without the  -snip- 

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:06:36 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Yeast lifespans

Throwing caution to the wind, I have enjoyed some high quality, scientific
replies to my recent question on yeast aging and lifespans - thank you all.

However, while the discussions on the budding and scaring were appreciated,
I still couldn't see how long it all took.  I mean if I had 40 kids I think
I would welcome an early grave at the bottom of the fermenter.

As chance would have it, I stumbled on some info that I had downloaded from
the Wyeast site (http://www.wyeastlab.com/education/edtempch.htm).  This
shows that the average time to bud varies with temperature (insert sound of
you slapping my head while saying 'Well Duh') - something that I had
totally overlooked.

Thanks to Dave Logsdon of Wyeast, the answer is (drum roll please) ....

At 75 F it takes approx. 2 hours for an Ale yeast cell to bud.  At 65F it
takes 3.2 hours and at a chilly 60F is slows right down to a bud every 7.5
hrs.  The equivalent times for a lager yeast are 2.2 (75F) 3.7 (65F) 5.0
(60F)  There is also a table which shows how this translates into cell
counts.

Now, assuming ALAN's 40 bud limit, this gives a life of at least 80 hrs at
75F, with a clean living 65F ale yeast entering the record books at more
than 5 days.

Thank you, my quest is at an end.


David Lamotte

Breeding and Burying Yeast in Newcastle N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:25:24 -0400
From: "Menegoni, Lee" <Lee.Menegoni at compaq.com>
Subject: Immersion chiller idea

Your idea isn't that far fetched.  A possible drive unit could be had from
one of those water powered self propelled lawn watering units.  They torque
in order for them to wind up a garden hose, with proper gearing one could
get it to revolve at a speed appropriate for wort or water stirring.

Attilio "Lee" Menegoni



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:40:11 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Old yeast, one data point

Ed Iaciofano wrote about beach plumb berries and old yeast.

>      Made some beachplumb wine last week.
>
Just what are beachplumb berries?  Never heard of 'em.

>     A data point showing yeast can perform well after
> proper long term storage.
>
Recently on the baker's digest a conversation on yeast came up.  Red Star
suggests that dry yeast will remain viable after opening for 6 months if
stored in the freezer sealed in the original package and protected from
moisture.   They also stated that it will remain viable almost indefinately
in the original vacuum pack.  Yet folks in the digest reported that they had
yeast stored in both freezer and refrigerator that showed no appreciable
degradation after 2 to 3 years of storage.  Kinda makes you wonder, huh.
Still, I keep my yeast in the freezer just in case.



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:23:14 EDT
From: BioCoat at aol.com
Subject: Dark mild licorice flavor

Does anyone know how to create the licorice like flavor in dark mild?


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 09:42:47 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  Praticality

Steve writes about turbulent flow using a peristaltic pump:

>You should.   Turbulent flow in a tube is a Reynolds Number RN >2200 
where
>RN = rho * vbar * Diam / nu  For 20P maltose solution at 20C, 1/4"ID,
>1gal/min the RN is about 5500.  The RN will be even higher at higher 
temps
>(lower viscosity).  The RN will be proportional to the flow rate.  For a
>given flow rate, increasing the tubing diameter causes a proportional
>decrease in RN.

Once again Mr. Alexander ties to baffle us with B.S. (if you cant dazzle 
em with brilliance.......)

Tho the form of the equation you used is correct, you must have used 
incorrect values for
vbar or nu.  There is a much simpler form of the equation for RN that does 
not lend itself as easily to errors in calculating mass density in units 
of slugs per cubic foot or pounds
seconds squared per foot to the fourth power (whew!).  The easiest way to 
calculate the Reynolds number is with the following equation: 

R = V * d/v

(if you flip forward in your text book a couple of pages, I am sure you 
will find it):

Where:
R = Reynolds number
V = Velocity of the fluid
d = diameter of the tube or pipe
v = kinematic viscosity of the fluid

If:
V = 1 gpm (or 0.00223 ft^3 per second)
d = 0.25 inch (or 0.021 ft)
v = 1E-05 ft^2 per second 

R = 0.00223 ft^3/s * 0.021ft / 1E-05 ft^2/s

R = 4.64

Which is well below the R number of 2200 for turbulent flow.  You might 
question the value
of v that I used (water at about 70 degrees F, from ASCE Manual Number 
25), but you can
vary the value of v an order of magnitude in either direction and still 
not approach turbulent
flow.

All of which is irrelevant because there is no peristaltic pump 
manufactured that can pump
1 gpm through a 0.25 inch diameter tube (at least for any pratical length 
of time without
burning the cam and tubing out).  Of course I would not expect Steve to 
let practicality
interfere with one of his scientific arguments.

Paul Niebergall


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:03:23 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Heat of vaporization, Carolina on my mind, Translations

Brewsters:

Matt Comstock wonders at the results of his calculation
in which he uses 4J/ g degC for the heat capacity of
liquid water and 44 kJ/mol for the heat of vaporization
of water.

Assuming the values he provided are correct
( all my books are packed up) you can look at it this
way:

A mole of water is 28 g/mol so that 1000/28 = 35.7
moles per liter for water or to evaporate a liter of water
at ambient ( I asssume 20C) temperature, it takes about
35.7 X 44 = 1571 kJ/l -deg 


To change a liter of water ( ~ beer)  by one degree
it takes ~ 1000g X  4 J/g  = 4000 J/l  ,= 4 kJ/l

So: 

a 6 degree change as Matt proposed will take
6 X 4 = 24 kJ /l
a 5 gallon jug will have about 19 liter/batch so
19 X 24 =  456 kJ/batch-6 deg

Thus, evaporation of a liter of water will cool
1571/456 = 3.44 batches/l evap
or  1/3.44  =  0.29/l-batch
or about 1/3 liter to cool a 5 gallon batch by
6 degrees as Matt laid out in his problem. 

This is in the ballpark of what Matt obtained..

This assumes that the heat capacity of beer
equals water, if it is higher ( which it is, I think ) and
that no heat is generated by the fermentation
( which it is).  In the final assessment,taking these
other issues into account and if I didn't make
a math error, it probably takes about a 0.5 liter
of water to cool a 5 gal fermentation by evaporation,
especially one which is fermenting rapidly. 

This also ignores other sources of heat input,
which is not the case, since the vessel is not
perfectly insulated.

Next question: given various ambient humidities,
what <volume> of air must be passed over the
wet-T shirt  ( assuming for the moment 100%
saturation of the air after evaporation)? It is
somewhat puzzling to me at the moment , since
the air passing over the wet T-shirt is a heat source
and is humidity dependent ( imagine the ambient
humidity is 100% as a boundary condition).

In the case of 100% ambient humidity, the rate of
heat loss through evaporation is 0% and the rate
of heat pickip is dependent on lots of boundary
conditions and rates of heat transfer, not the least
of which is the fact that the T-shirt is an insulator as
is the glass. I don't have time to puzzle it out.

All you Chem and Mechanical Engineers have at it!!
- -----------------------------------------------
During this week our household goods will be getting
packed up and we will be heading to SC next week.
Don't know when I will be back up after the move.
- -----------------------------------------------
In a recent e-mail from a non-brewing friend I received
the results of a magazine contest in which one letter of
a word in a phrase was changed and a new humorous
translation resulted. [example: "Harlez Vous Francais?"
 - do you ride a French motorcycle?].

The pertinent one to us was the French phrase
R.S.V.P. ( Respondez  Si Vous Plait), "please respond" in
which the letter "t" was changed to "d". The new phrase
"Respondez Si Vous Plaid" was translated as
"Honk if you're Scottish".

My translation?  "Honk if you homebrew".  {8^)


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
 


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:37:39 -0500
From: "Christopher Farley" <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Fermometer accuracy / Water use in brewing

I have often wondered about the accuracy of stick-on thermometers like the
"Fermometer", particularly when I open my refrigerator and monitor the temp of
a fermenting lager at high kraeusen. There is obviously a temperature gradient
throughout the carboy, and the stick-on thermometer is measuring the
temperature of the outside glass. Is this temperature gradient significant? I
have wondered if this inaccuracy is related to the frequent claims I read that
"wet t-shirt" cooling can reduce the temperature of 5 gallons of fermenting
beer by 6-8 degrees F! That has always seemed like a lot of cooling for such a
large mass, and I wondered if people are using "stick-on" thermometers to
support these claims.

- -----------
David Kerr writes:

> Also, a bit of perspective is in order.  Per person water consumption
in
> the U.S. is approx. 50 gallons per day - about what I use to brew and
bottle a
> 10 gallon batch.

Have you considered the amount of water removed from your body when you
*consume* the 10 gallon batch of beer? Beer production is water-intensive, but
so is beer consumption.

- -----------
Christopher Farley
Northern Brewer, Ltd.
Saint Paul, Minnesota
www.northernbrewer.com
(800) 681-2739




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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 11:35:00 -0400
From: Eric.Fouch at steelcase.com

HBD-
A few commentaries, if'n you don't mind......

Steve Alexander pushes the boundaries of art v. science in brewing with his
vision of the future involving doping kits that produce virtually any style of
beer without flavor flaws or sanitation problems.  Would you use such a kit?
Perfect beer, 1/5 the work, and very little invested in equipment?  I don't
think I would.  First off, the kits would probably be pretty expensive,
pushing the cost of each beer up to about what you'd pay for it anyway.   Why
not just buy the real thing?  And second, there's no sense of accomplishment
in just mixing chemicals.  I should know, I used to be a bench chemist in a
pharmaceuticals process research lab.
Allow me to push SA's analogy one step further.  Imagine you are the new First
Officer on the Enterprise.  You want some yummy Romulan Ale, which any Star
Fleet Cadet knows is illegal this side of the Neutral Zone.  Now, would you be
more proud of your accomplishments (or more impressive to that cute little Lt.
down in Engineering) if you just disabled the synthehol circuits in the
replicator and said "Romulan Ale- Cold", or if you garnered the ingredients,
brewed it yourself, and plied the Lt. with your intentions in the Captains
ready room?

I thought so.

Frederick L. Pauly wrote

>So my idea for you creative builders out there
>is a water driven impeler to stir both the ice bath and the
>kettle.

Why not just drop an aquarium powerhead (submersible pump) into the ice bath?
For the wort chiller, a planispiral chiller just submersed in the top 3 inches
of the wort sets up a nice thermal mixing of the wort, requiring no or little
stirring.

Mark says:

>matt is testing fouch's discipline by posting of wet t-shirts and spooge in
>his basement.

Do I really need to respond to such sophomoric comments?  This is a forum on
brewing.  Not some amateur night at The Imrpov.   I saw nothing remotely
humorous in this post.

So Matt, got any pictures of facials or moneyshots?


AKM talks about yeast population ecologies:
>We're saying that the mother cell is going to poop
>out after 40 divisions. At this point we have ONE single dead cell (the
>original cell we started the culture with) plus a total population of 550
>BILLION live descendants. One more generation and the next eldest daughter
>cell croaks but the population has doubled again also so we maintain the same
>ratio of  died of old age cells/live descendants in the population as a whole.

But aren't there TWO next eldest daughter cells to croak?  And the next
generation, FOUR eldest daughter cells to croak?  so, as the population grows
exponentially, so does the "population" of dead cells.  THAT'S what keeps the
ratio stable.  Minor nit.  Just wanted you to know I was paying attention.



More on wet T-shirts (oh GOODY!)

From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wet t-shirt calculations

OK science-fans.  When cooling a carboy using the wet t-shirt
technique, how much water do we need to evaporate to cool the contents?
 Consider 20 L of wort/beer, a desired del T of 6 degrees C, a heat
capacity of water of 4.184 J/g C, and a heat of vaporization of water
of 44.01 kJ/mol.  I calculate 205 mL water has to evaporate to cool 20
L of wort/beer 6 C.  That doesn't make sense to me.  What's wrong?

I'll assume you assume more water should be evaporated to cause effective
cooling.
The 205 number may be low in a real life situation.  If this experiment was
performed in a bomb calorimeter, with adequate insulation, you should get
adequate cooling.  In your basement, however, you will see additional water
usage for the same cooling, through heat transfer inefficiencies, water
evaporating directly out of the pan, and various household animals drinking
from it.  Perhaps you could train the cat to piss back into the pan, reducing
water usage, and giving you more economical cooling?

Eric Fouch
PDT&L
"You never know, until you know"
                                                     -Dr. Pivo


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bryan Gros <blgros at yahoo.com>
Subject: zones and proteins

Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> writes:
>
>Check out
>http://www.nettinker.com/drmcdougall/debate.html
>
>And make up your own minds. 

Interesting stuff.

I did the zone thing last year, and lost weight. It was
fairly easy to follow and stick with, and I didn't find
it too restrictive. Also, I discovered that I rather like
broccoli, which didn't hurt!

But I think that the weight loss was mostly due to eating
more healthy in general and eating less, exercising more.

Many of Sears' detractors call it a "high-protein" diet.
High is a relative term. One thing appealing to me was
that it was balanced--fat, carbs or protein aren't 
inherently evil. Don't overdo any one item, keep it in balance
and your meals can be healthy as well as tasty.

Sears did advocate having 30% of calories from protein, and
he recommended using something like nonfat yoghurt or egg
white as best. chicken and fish was next best. Beef and bacon
was the worst source of protein.

So McDougall glosses over a few of Sears points. But McDougalls
points are well taken too.

I'm finding now that just trying to eat a "balanced" diet with
lean meat, lots of veggies, and not overdoing the fat is 
working well. Actually, it seems like common sense now.

As they say, everything in moderation...


===
 - Bryan
    gros at bigfoot.com

  "To live your life it seems,
   is a waste without a dream..."
                          - BoDeans
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free  at yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:57:51 -0700
From: "Dana H. Edgell" <edgell at cari.net>
Subject: Sight Glass for Gott


Mark Vernon asks about a sight glass for a gott cooler.

I have one on mine. I wanted to avoid drilling a large hole in the side of
the cooler so I simply put a pipe-T fitting before the outlet valve. The
top of the T faces up and has a pipe to 3/8" compression fitting and a
piece of 3/8" PE tubing. The tubing is long enough to reach near the top of
the cooler where it is held up by a cable tie and a stick-on cable tie
affixer thing (sorry I don't know what to call it). The level inside the
mash tun can easily be seen through the translucent tubing.

*Warning*: When I first started using the tube I noticed that even during
slow sparging the level in the tube would drop due to suction (venturi
effect?). The level quickly approached zero and would have begun suckking
in air if I hadn't caught it. This should concern those who beleive in the
evils of HSA.

The simple solution: Plug the tube top during the sparge. I use a 3/8"
plastic cap.

Dana Edgell

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell              mailto:EdgeAle at cs.com
Edge Ale Brewery
San Diego

Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder




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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:04:45 -0500
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: Re: wasting water

Kevin asks:

>The other portion of the brewing process that wastes excessive water is
>the wort cooling with an immersion chiller.  I know that one can add a
>pump to recirculate the cooling water, but I would be curious to hear
>from anyone about how they setup up their system.  In particular, in the
>initial cooling the water picks up tremendous heat from the wort.  How
>do you effectively cool the water? 

I simply use a clean 32 gallon Rubbermaid trash can.  To cool down my 5 or
10 gal. batch, I find that just about the time I have lowered the wort temp,
the can is about full to the top.  I then switch to circulating ice water,
but that's another story.  I just use the now warm water to rinse and
temporarily hold brewing stuff.  I let it sit there overnight and the next
day it is at outside temp.  Then, in goes my $25 aquarium submersible pump
with male hose fitting, connected to my regular garden hose and lawn
sprinkler.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:23:00 -0400
From: "Lee, Brian" <blee at attcanada.com>
Subject: First time post / Yeast Question / Pivo/ et all


I've been lurking here for several years, but this is my first post. I've
resisted the urge to get into the non-productive arguments that seem to go
on all the time even though part of me wants to comment quite often - Why
add to the 'spam'?

In any case  - I've been brewing for 10 years, went all grain last Dec. Up
until now I've used dry yeast (manufacturer unknown) bought in bulk from a
brew on premises business near me - both 'lager' and 'ale' - although I
question just WHAT it is I've been getting.

For the first time I'm going to try Wyeast..I've ordered several lager & Ale
varieties. The Price (here in Canada at least) is quite a bit MORE than what
I am used to paying for my bulk dry yeast - Is there any reason why I cannot
Step a Wyeast  pack up to enough volume to fill say 6 bottles, be very
careful with keeping everything sterile, mix my stepped up mixture well,
then bottle it, and use one pack to create 6 more - thus reducing the
overall yeast cost for each batch? This makes sense to me but I've never
seen this idea mentioned here..Am I missing something? Obviously each bottle
would need to be stepped up properly with starters before using in a 5 gal.
batch.

As for Dr. Pivo, I've read many times his posts. Found them to be often
humorous, down to earth, realistic, informative, ...need I continue? I think
you see where I'm going..

On the issue of Charlie Papazan (did I spell that right?? Sorry if not...).
The first book I received 10 years ago was his - I liked his approach -
don't scare away the 'newbie' - basic, intermediate, advanced chapters -
sure some of the stuff may not be what all agree with, but who can argue
with his attitude..we're not (well most of us at least) 'professional
brewmasters'..we should enjoy our hobby as goal #1. This I believe is
Charlie's mantra..and even though I would like to think I'm a fairly
advanced brewer now, I still some times grab his book and re-read certain
areas.

My opinion (which means nothing to anyone but myself I guess, but I give it
anyways) is that some people need to lighten up a bit...and leave their
'attitudes' at the door. Granted due to vacation I am running about 3 weeks
behind in the Digest right now, but since Dr. Pivo's last messages and the
recent AHA re-organizing,  some people have been displaying a very arrogant
attitude..and have been ensuring that their every post to the digest
reflects some sarcastic comments, be it subtle or not.

Dont get me wrong, I like to see people's opinions, I enjoy the very
technical yeast metabolism and tubing fluid dynamics posts and such (even if
I don't understand them!), but is it really necessary to word your message
with an attitude that screams "I'm better than everyone"..well like I
said..just my opinion..flame away! I can take it.

In any case, I'd like to see us get back to what we are here for, and as I
already said (do I always repeat myself like this?) leave the attitude at
the door.

I apologize if my Pivo / et all comments are out of sync with what is
currently being discussed in the Digest - as I am (repeating again!)  about
3 weeks behind right now.

Brian Lee
Dunnville, Ontario
Canada
blee at attcanada.com


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:28:05 -0400
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: Science vs. Art

Brewers and Brewsters,

I promise I won't take much of your time with this thread, but haven't we
lost the definition of science in this debate?

According to the Cambridge Dictionary online at
http://www.cup.cam.ac.uk/elt/dictionary/

SCIENCE  noun (knowledge obtained from) the systematic study of the
structure and behaviour of the physical world, involving experimentation and
measurement and the development of theories to describe the results of these
activities.

In other words, science is the aplication of the scientific method:
Hypothesize, Experiment, Measure, Confirm/Deny.

To claim that brewers who brew according to rules of thumb, measure
temperature by their finger, who "eyeball" mash thickness, etc, aren't using
science is incorrect; they are applying the scientific method just as much
as the brewer who uses thermometers, pH meters, etc, but merely with
different tools of measurement (eyes, fingers, etc.) 

Ask yourself, do you evaluate your beer and decide what "worked" and what
"didn't work" with that batch? Sounds like measurement to me("didn't quite get
the maltiness I was going for" - sensory evaluation) and Confirm/Deny ("hmm
that didn't work") and new Hypothesis "Maybe next time I'll try pressure
cooking some of the mash)."

Just because you don't read all the brewing science journals, doesn't mean
you are not being scientific.

Dan Cole
Roanoke, VA


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:55:04 -0500
From: msmiley at cardiology.utmb.edu (Matt Smiley)
Subject: Low Carb Diets & Beer

I've been studying the low carb diet phenomenon over the last few months and
hopefully can clarify some of the mysteries from a biochemical standpoint.

1. (The Good News) The "Atkins" or "Zone" ketogenic diets  (high fat, high
protein, low carbohydrates) do in fact work and there is a well known
mechanism that explains their success. The human body requires a certain
amount glucose and uses it preferentially as fuel when it is present in the
diet. The body stores a small amount of glucose in the form of glycogen but
this is only sufficient for 24 hours or so. When the body is deprived of
glucose, it must manufacture the stuff in the liver using a process called
gluconeogenesis. This process uses amino acids and triglycerides (free fats
in the bloodstream) to manufacture glucose from the glycerol component of
the molecule, and "ketone bodies" from the acetyl components. The ketone
bodies are benign (not related to the condition of ketoacidosis that occurs
in diabetics) and are readily used as fuel by muscles and other organs. This
process of gluconeogenesis is highly ineffecient from an energy standpoint,
and therefore consumes a lot more energy than ordinary metabolic pathways.
This pathway is a normal process that occurs in humans in cases of
starvation, but the adequate amounts of protein and fat in the ketogenic
diets prevent the undesireable effects of muscle wasting, etc.

2. (How insulin fits in) Insulin acts in response to elevated blood glucose
levels by helping to transport the glucose into your cells. But insulin ALSO
drives the process that stores fat (which is manufactured from glucose when
glucose is in excess) into adipose tissue. Low insulin levels often equate
to low body fat. However, probably for genetic reasons, some folks who exist
on a high carbohydrate diet develop insulin resistance, which leads to
chronically high insulin levels because more is needed to do the job. This
leads to excess body fat, and, eventually, type II diabetes when the
endogenous insulin loses most of its effectiveness.

3. (The bad news for us beer drinkers) The ketogenic diet is a great thing
for those who stick to it, but there is one cruel fact of nature that makes
it useless to regular consumers of alcohol. When the liver is presented with
alcohol, it devotes a lot of its function to the metabolism of same. The
byproducts of this metabolism (NADH, for one) are inhibitory to a lot of
other enzymatic processes, including those of gluconeogenesis. So if you try
to do the ketogenic diet while drinking any significant amount of alcohol,
you're not going to generate the glucose and burn the fat. You're just going
to get hypoglycemic and feel like crap. (and probably not lose any
significant amount of weight). Better off doing the old exercise thing
instead (besides, beer tastes and feels better after a good workout!)

I'm a neophyte homebrewer, but if anyone has a good high-potency IPA recipie
they want to send, please do!

- --Matt Smiley
msmiley at utmb.edu



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:48:48 -0400
From: "David Kerr" <dkerr at semc.org>
Subject: commercial p-cooking

mark bayer asks:
>does anyone know if pressure cooking is used by any of the commercial
>brewers?

and Steve Alexander posted:
>Just for the science geeks ?  What odd advice.  For what reason and
at what
>temp does he consider it overheating ?  It's normal (to about 219F)
in
>internal boiler systems and extreme (3+ bar) systems around 300F and
even
>higher are described in Kunze and elsewhere. 250F is pretty tame
bycomparison.

Don't know what a 3+ bar system is, but any brewer using one seems to
fit the commercial p-cooking profile.  Any examples, Steve?

Dave Kerr - on line outside Fenway for playoff tix



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:37:47 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Malty, oxidized / Faultline 

There are a LOT of "oxidized" flavors.

Papery/cardboard is certainly one.  Others include "winy" (but there
are also good "winy" aromas, e.g., in Koelsch), "sherry-like" (this
one is pretty easy to learn, anyway :-), "pineapple", and then there
are some I can't put words to, but just recognize.

One way to oxidize beer is to open the bottle, pour it out into a
(sanitized) pitcher, and back into the bottle.  Recap and set in a
warm place (90F is good :-)  After a day or so, it should have strong
oxidation aromas.

Another way to learn to recognized oxidized beer flavors is to take up
judging.  Depending on the category, it seems like half or more of the
beers in any competition have some amount of oxidized/old flavors in
them.  Get paired up with an experienced beer judge and ask him to
point out the oxidized tasting beers.  You'll learn the range of
flavors and aromas quickly. :-)

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI        (spencer at umich.edu)


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:27:17 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: hypothetical situation

Stephen Alexander writes:

>>Q: Would YOU 'homebrew' SE-beers ?<<

This is a trap set in a shallow attempt to catch brewing artists with a
"hypothetical situation" concerning SE-beers.  It easy to see right
through this one.  The answers have already been worked out by Mr.
Alexander and you will loose either way that you answer the question.

If your answer is: YES, I would brew SE-beers.  He will argue that
you must be relying on science because it was science that was used
to develop SE-beers.

If your answer is: NO, I would not brew SE-beers.  He will argue that
you are being inconsistent in your paranoia against science because you
accept the science of today (things like thermometers, water chemistry,
pure culture yeast,  temp controlled maltings, gibberellic acid, blah,
blah, blah...), but not the science of tomorrow that supposedly gives
one the ability to make SE-beer.

The question is ludicrous to begin with.  First of all, perfect SE-beer
will never happen.  Secondly, in the extreme scenario were perfect SE-
beer did become a reality, the facts would not be accepted by everyone.
There would be those among us who have big egos or immaculate palettes
that would swear they are better than the rest of us and could detect 
flaws
in SE-beer despite all the science (George DePiro comes to mind).  These
people would then form an army of minions of who would continue to
beat the drum ad infinitum.  Then all we would be left with is a never
ending debate that would be identical to the extract versus all grain
debate.

For the love of god and all that is artistic in home brewing, please to 
not
succumb to the feeling that you have to answer this question.  The HBD
will be much better off that way.

Dr. Beer


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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:05:22 -0400
From: Rich Lenihan <richl at openadmin.com>
Subject: Homebrewing equipment for sale in Boston area

I am moving and must part with the following homebrewing equipment. This
is a complete setup (and more) for the serious all-grain brewer (or
wannabe). Among the items to be (sob, sob) parted with are:

Camp Chef ring burner
Sabco Converted Keg boiler
JSP maltmill
Homemade counterflow chiller
Gott 10 gallon cooler with Phil's Phalse Bottom
Ceramic-on-Steel pots (4 and 8 gallons)
Kegging systems with 5 lb. CO2, dual-gauge regulator and 2 ball-lock
kegs
Glass carboys (3 5-gallon, 1 6.5 gallon)
March MDX3-T pump (never used)
Assorted odds and ends, too numerous to mention
100's of beer bottles

I will gladly accept $500 (or best reasonable offer) for the lot OR I
will will be selling all of this equipment at a yard sale at my house on
Saturday, August 21. Individual items  may be purchased there at that
time.

Address of yard sale:

12 Oak Knoll Road
Natick, MA 01760

Please come between 9 and 12 Saturday morning. See www.mapquest.com for
directions.

Thanks,

Rich




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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:45:31 -0400
From: Debi Lake <debiL at sunnyorlando.com>
Subject: CFC in FLA

I too live in hot, balmy Florida and use Heart's counter flow chiller.
My water never gets very cool even the winter.  With my current water
temperature of 80F degrees, my counter flow system needs some serious
help.

During the summer, I have been running the wort from the CF chiller
through a 6ft copper coil buried in a cooler of ice and then into the
carboy.  It's a pain because it's one more thing to sanitize and clean.
Also, with the extra apparatus, it's harder to start the siphon since I
can't increase the height of my kettle.  To solve this problem, I may
have to break down a purchase a pump (damn, now that's two more things I
have to clean).

On the bright side, during the cooler months, I have been able to get
away with burying the CF chiller itself into the cooler full of ice.
Because it was not designed for that purpose, it doesn't drop the wort
temperature but a few degrees -- but for much of the year that's all I
need.  I any of you tropical brewers have other suggestions, I'm open.

Don Lake
Windermere, FL
dlake at amuni.com



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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:55:35 +1000
From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com>
Subject: sure you have Phil!

Phil Yates says:

>Hey Doc, I have been accused of many a thing but I aint never pocked my
>tongue at a sheep!!

Come on Phil, sure you have! All Aussies do, in between sucking on tubes of
VB!  I have photographic evidence!

See:

http://www.321website.com/members/home/data/ericp/

for visual proof.

Eric Panther



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Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:48:32 -0500
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re:  Reynolds numbers in Re; pumps

Steven Alexander writes, in reply to Kirk:

> Kirk writes ...
>>...but I certainly wouldn't expect turbulent flow using a peristaltic
pump,

>You should.   Turbulent flow in a tube is a Reynolds Number RN >2200 where
>RN = rho * vbar * Diam / nu  For 20P maltose solution at 20C, 1/4"ID,
>1gal/min the RN is about 5500. 

Now, this wasn't their topic, to be fair, but if you're trying to achieve
turbulent flow in your immersion or counterflow chiller, beware the dangers
of a little knowledge.  There's a little-known effect by which coiling your
tubing will help maintain laminar flow at Reynolds numbers well into what
should be the transition region.

Just chipping in my 2 cents' worth

Sean



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