---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Yeast storage/culturing ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Re: beer metabolism (Matt Smiley)
  BrewingArtV.Science/Papazian/An idea (Jim Kingsberg)
  Simplified Wort Chilling (Matt Smiley)
  Trials , Tribulations and Finnings ("Darryl Downie")
  homebrew making and the ongoing drought(Bob Fesmire) (Ballsacius)
  Water Re-cycling & corny keg fermenter with immersion chiller ("C.D. Pritchard")
  Barley wines (Dave Burley)
  RE: Steve's Hypo (Mark Dalton)
  Ball Blanket (Dan Listermann)
  Doc Panther Gets Personal ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Inexpensive Vacuum Sealers ("Arthur McGregor")
  Re: over pressure boiling? ("Scholz, Richard")
  Something about the pot calling the kettle black... ("Scott Moore")
  Keg carbonation ("Farrell, Erik")
  sorry... ("Eric Panther")
  Wet Tee-shirt, and Science Beer (RCAYOT)
  RE: Formula for Calculating Expected FG from OG ("Nigel Porter")
  Mini Kegs (JYANDERS)
  SG from OG (Pat Babcock)
  SMM attenuation in p-cooked wort ("Rich, Charles")
  Lagering schedule (Chris Cooper)
  Re: Reynolds Number (Scott Murman)
  Sour mash terminology (Teutonic Brewer)
  But tubing is tubing is tubing (ThomasM923)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:43:04 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Yeast storage/culturing

Brian Lee posted regarding storing yeast for reculturing for starters:

Storing yeast in beer bottles for reculturing is the method I have used to
maintain my cultures for a couple of years. Just for clarifying Brian's
question, I always allow the culture to completely ferment out and
flocculate before storing it in bottles in my refrigerator.  I usually put
up only about only three 12 oz. or 16 oz. bottles of each yeast, since I may
not use more than these three bottles in a reasonable amount of time.
However, I have recultured yeast stored in this manner for over a year
without any noticeably problems.  I probably have lower viability than I
would if the yeast were recultured sooner; but by storing so many cells, I
apparently have enough to get the culture going again.

When I'm ready to brew and I'm have only one bottle of the stored yeast, I
grow up a starter for my next batch of beer (as usual) and pitch all but a
small amount of this starter.  I then step up this remaining yeast just to
refill more beer bottles for storage.  If you intend to reculture the dregs
of the starter in this manner, take special caution to keep the starter
vessel sanitary during pitching so that the culture of the dregs remain
sanitary.  (Long-stemmed butane lighters and all the usual common-sense type
measures pertain here.)  Otherwise you'll be storing contaminated yeast
which will inevitably reveal itself when you try to reculture it after
storage.

I ALWAYS taste the supernatant of my flocculated yeast before pitching,
storing, or reculturing stored yeast.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 21:57:02 -0500
From: msmiley at cardiology.utmb.edu (Matt Smiley)
Subject: Re: beer metabolism

Dear Todd,

Fortunately, I'm at home today recovering from some nasty dental work so I
had some time to do some fact checking.My mind is a little fogged from the
pain medication I've been taking, so I wanted to make sure my facts were
right!

(BTW, I am not a biochemist but I am a medical student and my sources are
recent editions of clinically oriented biochemistry and physiology
textbooks, particularly "Biochemistry with Clinical Correlations, T. Devlin,
ed., 1997)

There are two initial steps used in alcohol catabolism. The first uses an
enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase (EtOH + NAD+ ---> acetaldhyde +NADH).
The second step uses the enzyme aldehyde dehydrogenase (acetaldehyde +
NAD+ ----> acetate + NADH). As you can see, these processes generates an
excess of NADH. Many other liver enzymes, including several of those used in
gluconeogenesis and fatty acid oxidation are sensitive to product inhibition
by excess NADH, which means fasting hypoglycemia (in the absence  of adequte
dietary glucose) and accumulation of hepatic triglycerides (AKA fatty liver)
are the byproducts of even moderate alcohol consumption. All of these things
are better, however, than the accumulation of excess acetaldehyde, which can
be a real unpleasant experience.

Now to address the differences between ketosis and ketoacidosis (usually
called diabetic ketoacidosis or DKA).

DKA is a condition that occurs primarily in younger people with Type I
(insulin-dependent) diabetes where little or no insulin is produced by the
pancreas and the body is forced to produce ALL of its energy in the form of
ketones. Dietary glucose and gluconeogenesis are ineffective (and the
patient's blood is very hyperglycemic) because the lack of insulin prevents
the glucose from getting from the blood into the cells. So the only option
is to for generation of fuel for the body is the massive production of
ketones by the liver. This, unfortunately, shifts the pH of the blood to
dangerously acidic levels, causing all sorts of problems.

Dietary ketosis on the other hand is a natural process associated with the
use of fatty acids for fuel instead of glucose. It occurs in starvation and
in low-carb diets. With the body able to produce its own sugar through
gluconeogenesis and utilize it with adequate insulin levels, the levels of
ketones produced do not cause pathological shifts in pH. And ketones are
readily used as fuel by numerous tissues. In fact, under starvation
conditions, nervous tissue which preferentially uses glucose will adapt to
using ketones over time.

I hope some of you are still conscious after that little dissertation. To
make this a beer related post, I would also be interested in some Strong
Scotch Ale recipies!! (thanks to all for the IPA formulae)!



- ----- Original Message -----
From: t carlson <carlsoto at river.it.gvsu.edu>
To: <msmiley at cardiology.utmb.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:45 PM
Subject: beer metabolism


> Matt
>
> I enjoyed your summary in today's HBD.  Just one thing, I thought that
> NADH stimulated gluconeogenesis.  Do you know the details about the
> inhibition due to ethanol catabolism?
>
> Also, I'm not so sure about your ketone body statement.  Ketoacidosis is
> the result of ketone body production.  I think it is just a matter
> degree.  Normal levels of fat catabolism makes small amounts of ketone
> bodies which can be handled by normal catabolism.  But when it becomes
> excessive, it causes a problem.
>
> todd
> carlsont at gvsu.edu
>




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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:04:59 -0500
From: Jim Kingsberg <fugowee at theramp.net>
Subject: BrewingArtV.Science/Papazian/An idea

Okay, Im guessing this might be a long post, sorry.
Brewing Art Vs Science:
I went to college for Industrial Design(in Chicago).  The argument for art
vs science extends to this area as well and designers are just as dogmatic
in this argument, if not more, than in this forum.  What was applied at my
college, being a direct descendant of the Bauhaus, was that form follows
function.  Many designers go for aetheticism over function.  We were taught
to have the product function as designed and apply aesthetics after
acheiving the functional goals.  The aethestics part really took talent and
intuition.  The functional part took a real hard methodological approach.
However, the dogmatic approach was always controversial to those who took
the opposite.  Secretly, I beleive each side lusted after the other's
results.  The result is that there were many different "solutions" from the
different approaches.  In making this a beer related topic, perhaps the
same types of approaches are applied in our hobby.
(a nice seg way to...)
I always approached homebrewing as hobby.  If a batch was poorly made, I
did not worry and didnt start out with Papazians book with the
admonishments to "dont worry, have a home brew".  True these are fine
sentiments, ones I agree with, but I didnt need to support Charlie by
buying his book and agreeing with what he had to say.  I was much happier
to have Dave Millers book, without the admonishments to not worry, as I
already had the ideal that this is only a hobby and I wont lose sleep over
a batch of beer that didnt work out.  Papazians book is fine.  I like
Miller's better for starting out.  Thats my opinion and it worked out for
me.  YMMV.

Now for something slightly different.  Im starting to get a sense that the
HBD is a something of a homebrew club in itself.  The only thing you need
to do to join is have internet access and maybe e-mail.  Everyone is
welcome and everyone participates as they see fit (and we all do very well
at this.)
My proposal is this:  We, as a collective, select one brew recipe.  Several
 of us, the group, the teeming millions, agree to brew that recipe using
the  local water (or maybe not) and our standard, individual brewing
practices.  The participants would keep a log as to the practices used,
relevant data, etc. and agree to send a sample to the group.  Perhaps we
create "cells" of brewers, hopefully with varying brewing practice styles
and experience, that send the particular batch among the participants in
the group.
Okay, yeah, that seems like a really naive and idealistic idea, but one
that seems like a good one to me.(Ive had a few already.  I can feel the
love of the collective.  sorry, Fred Garvin, Im taken already.)  Anyway,
the obvious points of contention would be what recipe, how to ochestrate
this monstrous idea, and singlehandedly affecting UPS's bottom line in a
positive way.  So its just an idea.  Thought I'd run it up the flag pole
and see who's salute it.
As an aside, I am gettin hitched in October and luckily persuaded the
assistant brewer to have the reception at....a brewpub.  Im lucky indeed.

Jim Kingsberg (Rev. Pivo)
Fugowee Brewery, Evanston IL.
across the pond from Renner



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:18:48 -0500
From: msmiley at cardiology.utmb.edu (Matt Smiley)
Subject: Simplified Wort Chilling

After reading about the various contraptions for chilling hot wort, I wanted
to explain the 'slow cool' technique that I use and solicit comments as to
what the disadvantages might be.

My basic boiler setup consists of a 10 gallon professional S/S kettle with
matched lid. In the lid, I have drilled a very small hole that precisely
accommodates the 12" long probe of a Taylor instruments deep-fry dial
thermometer that extends down  When I near the end of my boil, I simply put
the cover and thermometer assembly on top and continue to boil at >180 for15
minutes or so before cutting the heat. The interior of the pot, lid, and
temp probe should now be entirely sterile so long as the lid is not
disturbed. I set the pot aside and take care of other business until the
dial reads 80-90 degrees, usually about 8 hours. Tranferring into the carboy
at this point cools the wort a little more to the point where the yeast can
be pitched.

So far, this process has produced good beer for me with no funky tastes or
anything, but I've read in some places that slow cooling wort can give you
bad results, particularly with all grain beer. Is this due to chemical
changes or enzymes or is it more a case of contamination that may occur if
the wort is allowed to sit for a long period without perhaps the strictest
sterility measures in place.

Any suggestions from you veteran brewers would be appreciated. Of course,
private e-mail is welcome.

- -----------------
Matt M. Smiley
Smileyvania State Brewery
msmiley at utmb.edu

"Beer - the cause of (and the solution to) most of life's problems" -- Homer
J. Simpson



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:29:36 +0930
From: "Darryl Downie" <dagzy at senet.com.au>
Subject: Trials , Tribulations and Finnings

Hi, this is my first post@ HBD so if I ramble on a bit I will apologize in
advance.

Anyhow, I am a newbie to the wonders of home brew (sort of), well I had a
dabble with kits a few years ago then tried to make some type of all grain
beer and fell flat on my face. It tasted absolutely terrible and smelled
like rotten cardboard. The kids came along and it all sort of came to a
screeching halt. Now a few years later, five to be exact, I have ventured
into this heavenly realm once more to pursue the quest for ultimate
perfection. I am starting of with a new fermenter and a couple of canned kit
beers. And my queries relate to two things, they are:-

A) I stumbled on the HBD by pure chance while searching for instructions on
making equipment for all grain brewing, can anyone point me in the right
direction?

B) Being paranoid about infection (from my previous experience) I
inadvertently over-tightened my fermenter lid. I discovered this when I went
to put in the finnings. After much straining and lack of success I ended up
taking out the airlock and pouring the finnings in through the hole using a
funnel, then I swirled the brew around a bit, yes I did and you can pick
yourself up off the floor now.   Should I expect success from this venture
or be a little less exuberant next time?

Greetings from Adelaide South Australia :)

Darryl



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:01:57 EDT
From: Ballsacius at aol.com
Subject: homebrew making and the ongoing drought(Bob Fesmire)

I live in southeastern Pennsylvania and like most of the east, we are in a 
drought. I have been very good and have not watered the lawn, or washed the 
car, or make beer.
I am very eager to get the boil kettle fired up again. Would this be a 
"waste" of water? What are other hombrewers doing? Private e-mail ok.


Bob Fesmire
Pottstown,PA
Madman Brewery
Ballsacius at aol.com


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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:07:44
From: "C.D. Pritchard" <cdp at chattanooga.net>
Subject: Water Re-cycling & corny keg fermenter with immersion chiller

20 days here w/o rain so discharging waste brewry water on the plants in
the yard is appreciated by them!  Anyway, I use an immersion chiller and
divert the first hot water discharged into an old plastic 7 gal. pail and
use that water for flushing the RIMS the boiler.  I also switch to an
ice/water bath with a pump (I use the HLT) for cooling after the wort temp.
drops to within 10-20 degF of the tap water temp.  I usually recirc. the
water from the chiller back into the HLT abd add more ice as necessary.
The mixing action of the water being recirculated back onto the ice in the
HLT ensures it's well cooled since the Reynolds number is >2000. <g>

Just about finished the primary ferment of the first batch in a corny
fitted with an immersion cooling coil with cold water from an ice/water
bath pumped through it.  I've noticed nothing un-toward in the ferment and
it appears to eat less ice than the old fermenting chamber.  Well, maybe
one un-toward thing: I found by accicent that the pump isn't needed if the
there's not an air break in the cooling flow (i.e. discharge from coil
above the ice/water level).  First night, the fermenter temp. dropped from
the 65 degF setpoint to 61 degF via convection flow of the water from the
cold ice/water bath through the warmer cooling coil.  The yeast didn't seem
to get shocked by the dT- maybe cause the dt was longish.  Next step is to
cool via a heat exchanger in the beer fridge. If there's any interest in
this thing, I'll post the design.


c.d. pritchard cdp at chattanooga.net 
http://chattanooga.net/~cdp/  



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:13:19 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Barley wines

Brewsters:

Eddie Kent asks about barleywine storage and
expects to ferment it in the primary two weeks
and two weeks in the secondary.

Depending on your OG,  temperature, the type
of yeast, pitching level and agitation, your
barleywine can take longer than that to finish out.

I suggest you drop it into your secondary - 

including about 1/4 of the yeast on the bottom,
immediately when the head drops on the
primary ( maybe a week or so).  Then stir
the secondary periodically, but gently to
avoid oxygen entrainment, and measure the
SG or as I prefer, use Clinitest to get to a
constant value on readings three days apart.
Done carefully, this will produce a non-cloying,
stable barleywine Then keg and cool and
carbonate, if you wish. Bottling is also a
viable option as you will likely want to age some
for a few months to a year or so.  Using CP
bottling is the best option vs natural carbonation.

In the case of barleywines it is most important
to keep the yeast in suspension, since
various yeast strains flocc under conditions
in which the sugar is not completely
fermented out. Dropping and stirring are the
ways we have to overcome this. Using all
the yeast from a normal batch of beer is a
good way to get a large healthy population
to start it off.

I suggest you get a copy of the Barleywine
Classic Series from AHA as a good start to
references on barleywine. I assume it is still
avalable.
- --------------------------
On the subject of licorice flavor in beer, I have
often had a hint of licorice in my British -style ales
without the addition of any licorice flavoring.

 I have never studied it very carefully, but
it seemed to be there for OGs on the order of
1.065+ and when using darker crystal malts.
I believe the hobby books took the easy way 

out or assumed the brewers used licorice
flavouring ( anyone have any evidence they
did?) If professionals used the flavouring, perhaps
it was when the brewers lightened up on the 

OG they used licorice to give the impression
of a higher OG beer??
- --------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 08:35:31 -0400
From: Mark Dalton <mdalton at ndr.com>
Subject: RE: Steve's Hypo

I would have to vigorously agree with Tidmarsh Major on the motives
for brewing beer.  To quote Thoreau (poorly): "Many men fish all their
lives without ever realizing that it is not the fish they are after".

So too it is with brewing, IMHO.

Mark Dalton
Red Tide Brewery
Sarasota, FL


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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:35:24 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Ball Blanket

Mark Pensinger (beerlvr at hrfn.net) asks about plastic balls that are meant

to float on the surface of liquids to insulate and reduce surface 
exposure.
 I bought enough to cover the surface of a fermenter to provide surface
area for the collection of kraeusen nasties.  I believe that I read here
about a German brewery that called them "fermentation balls."  The idea 
was
that it would be something like a blow off only no beer would be lost.  
The
balls collected all manner of gunk and the beer was fine, but I haven't
felt a need to use them much lately.

I am sure that they would work very well in a hot liquor tank or even a
mash tun, but for the brief time involved, I doubt that it would make 
much
difference in performance.

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com  ( it works now) 

72723.1707 at compuserve.com

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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:46:56 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at flexgate.infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Doc Panther Gets Personal

Okay Doc,
          I don't know how you did it but obviously you have raided my
personal photo album and blasted it on to the internet. These are pretty old
photos you are using to denigrate my status here on the HBD. And you have
the hide to ask me in private email how much further can this go!! Don't
ever call me a urinal again, you are somewhere below the drain!
     An Aussie tourist came across a Kiwi behaving unnaturally in a paddock
with a sheep and yelled in disgust "Hey mate, in Australia we shear them
things"!!
     The Kiwi replied "Well I ain't shearing this babe with anybody"

That is my last comment on the subject. This is supposed to be a respectable
forum. We are supposed to be talking about beer. Not what you might get up
to when you have had too much!

Pat Babcock, throw this bum out!

Cheers
Phil Yates



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:24:58 -0400
From: "Arthur McGregor" <MCGREGAP at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Inexpensive Vacuum Sealers



Hi Everyone,

There have been questions on HBD for inexpensive vacuum sealers before, so this
may be of interest to some.  There are some inexpensive vacuum sealers available
from a mail order company called DAMARK (1-800-328-3100).  The most recent
catalog I received yesterday has one for sale at $22.99.

The vacuum sealer is listed as a "Freshlock (TM) II Vacuum Sealer," and sells
for $22.99, (item # B-44331-699233 on page 6 of the August 1999 Catalog), with
no S/H charge.  The picture of the vacuum sealer has the Name "Deni" on it.  The
description also says "It's perfect for canning, freezing, or pre-packaging
entire meals," but I don't know if it really works with Mason Jars or such for
canning -- should ask the sales rep if you ordar one.

Danmark also sells a 4-pack replacement rolls (four 33 foot polyethylene rolls)
for $19.99 (Item #B-44331-377991), again, with no S/H fee.  I have no idea if
polyethylene is an are oxygen barrier (for hops).

I have a different vacuum sealer, and I use it to seal grain bags and hops.  I
buy my grains in 10 pound bags and then subdivide into 1-3 lb portions, and buy
my hops by the pound and half pound, and reseal after use or subdivided into 2-4
ounce bags.  The bulk hop dealers (Freshops, Just Hops, F.H. Steinbart, HopTech,
etc) will also sell extra barrier bags when you ask for some.  Often you can use
the bags that other grains and hops came in, although you have to estimate
(experienced guess), based on the texture of the bags, how many seconds to seal
the bag so you don't melt a hole through the bag at the seal.  I often just
press out the air and seal, since the vacuum process wastes the upper few inches
of the bag (the vacuum nozzle has to be in the upper portion of the bag to suck
the air out and the sealing strip is below that).  I've found that after the
first seal, an additional 1-2 seals help to increase the success of a good, long
term seal.

While looking the HopTech site (http://www.hoptech.com/), I saw that they also
sell a heat sealer, the Rival Micro-Seal (formerly called the Dazey
Seal-a-meal), for $21.95.  It's not a vacuum heatsealer, but it does the job.
They also sell a Barrier hop bags.

Standard Disclaimer: Not associated with companies, just a satisfied customer.

Hoppy Brewing,
Art McGregor
Northern Virginia (near Washington, DC)




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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:30:09 -0500
From: "Scholz, Richard" <RScholz at refco.com>
Subject: Re: over pressure boiling? 

Collective Brewing Conscience;

"Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
<mailto:delbrew at compuserve.com> 
writes in HBD 3114:
>
Subject: over pressure boiling? The talk of pressure cooking wort and
over-pressure boiling made me wonder...If a large beer factory has a 30 foot
deep kettle, then wouldn't the beer at the bottom be at 2 atmospheres? Maybe
the wort at the bottom isn't actually boiling but the convecting heat would
boil the top layer of wort as it reaches closer to 1 atmosphere. Is this
over-pressure/over-temperature boil why they get such high hop
utilization's? In a really tall kettle they could be boiling at 3
atmospheres without a pressure system.
>
When I worked at the Rheingold Plant in Orange NJ ( '75-'77 closed Dec '77),
The brew house had 10 foot deep mash tuns, 40ft in diameter and kettles
slightly deeper, maybe 12ft., and about 25ft in diameter. The kettles were
filled about 2/3 full (left lots of room for the hops extract to be added
;^0 ) At ~8 ft deep the wort wasn't under multi-atmospheres of pressure and
as far as I know of other commercial plants, the geometry is about the same.
The place that the big boys use pressure cookers is for cereal cooking. They
used a pcooker to gelatinize the cereal (a mix of corn and rice at
Rheingold). And the hops utilization increase over homebrewing is due to
hooded venting of the kettles and more even heat distribution of large steam
fired kettles. ( I'll leave reference sighting as an exercise for the
student). It's been years since I had to put on the hip waders to shovel out
the grain when the paddles stuck in the mash tun. ;^). 

later,

Richard L Scholz
Bklyn. NY



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 11:54:12 -0400
From: "Scott Moore" <smoore at koyousa.com>
Subject: Something about the pot calling the kettle black...

In 3114 Paul wrote:

Steve Alexander shows his true side and just cant seem to admit that he is
wrong (and can get downright nasty in the process).
- ---------------------------------------------------------

It's nice to see that at least YOU haven't resorted to any nastiness and
kept your recent posts free of sarcasm and snide comments. (Oh, oh.  I think
now I just sunk to the same level...)



Scott Moore
Medina, Ohio



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:24:00 -0700
From: "Farrell, Erik" <erik.farrell at intel.com>
Subject: Keg carbonation



  I recently made the change from bottles to a corni-keg system. I am having
problems with the carbonation level in a stout I made (damm good thing the
foam tastes good because that's mostly what I get) I have my valve set for
14 pounds of pressure. Is this too much? What is an appropriate pressure
level by style? (I mostly make stouts and apa's) Any help would be
appreciated.

 Erik M Farrell
San Jose,Ca

"A hell of a long ways west of Jeff Renner"

All opinions expressed are mine and not my employers


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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 02:23:45 +1000
From: "Eric Panther" <epanther at somelab.com>
Subject: sorry...

Nurse Ratched has caught me using the computer! I am in big trouble!
At least McMurphy has things figured out..

Eric.




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Date: 19 Aug 1999 09:57:44 -0400
From: RCAYOT at solutia.com
Subject: Wet Tee-shirt, and Science Beer

     I did my own calculation about evaporative cooling.  One thing Dave 
     did was to use 28 as the moilecualr weight of water, I think it is 
     closer to 18g/mol, but besides that, the heat of vaporization is very 
     sensitive to the temperature at which the evaporation takes place, os 
     I used tables from the CRC (#52 tells you how old I am)!
     
     the enthalpy of water vapor at 70F is 1054BTU/LB
     The enthalpy of water at 70F is 38BTU/LB
     
     The difference in Enthalpy is the heat required to convert water to 
     vapor, so 
     
     1054btu/lb-38BTU/LB=1016BTU/LB
     Convert oto Joules per gram by multiplying by 2.3(J/g)/(BTU/LB)
     to get 2336J/g for H2Ol->H2Og  at 70F
     
     Now fpor the heat required to cool 20L of bewer 6 deg C
     
     the heat capacity of water at ~70F is 4.2J/g/C
     
     20L*1000g/L*4.2J/g/C*6C=504000J to cool 20L of beer as water 6 C
     
     504000J/2335J/g=215g of water to cool 20L of beer as water 6C.
     
     However, this requires that ALL of the heat of vaporization comes from 
     the beer, which cannot in any way be possible because much of hte heat 
     will come form the air, so we can only say >215mL, how much it 
     actually takes is completely beyond me!
     
     As for SA's hypothetical about super extracts, there is a real problem 
     with that, even assuming it is true.  The first is there would be such 
     a thing as "instant beer" that is you could get a perfectly fresh 
     Pilsner Urquell by just adding water to a concentrate, hey I have no 
     problem with that, I would relish it in fact!  The problem part of 
     that is that a homebrew shop would have to stock a nearly infinite 
     amount of supplies for each beer, that is, each electrolyte, protein 
     molecule, etc, after that, how do you get, mmm say Pilsner Urquell, 
     1992, a week old after a poor hop harvest?  well, you make some 
     adjustments, and even if we knew how, which SA says we do, then it 
     becomes just as challenging in its own way! just different!  
     Personally instead of half a billion or so ingerdients, I would just 
     spend a few hours making beer the old fashioned way, with four:malt, 
     water, hops and yeast, because I may not be able to replicate every 
     beer in the universe perfectly, I can make good beer in an afternoon, 
     but perfect beer will be old before we get all the ingredients mixed!
     
     Roger Ayotte



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:35:58 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Formula for Calculating Expected FG from OG

>Does anyone know of a formula for estimating final gravity from 
>original gravity?  I know there some complicating factors with any 
>such formula.
>However, such a formula would be useful if it exists for formulating
>recipes.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike hanson

Nice simple one that I use to give ABV.   

(OG - FG)/7.45

In the case of the gravities only use the last two digits ie 1048 
becomes 48 etc. I would normally estimate a final gravity based on 
what I would expect to get (usually 1010 - 1012, vary it if aiming for 
something different). This might not be pinpoint accurate, and there 
may be other more complex (but not necessarily accurate) formulae 
out there, but it seems to work.

Nigel
Brewing in Guildford, UK



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:44:19 EDT
From: JYANDERS at aol.com
Subject: Mini Kegs

I was searching e-bay today for things I could use in my home brewery when I 
came across several ads selling Hamms and Falstaff mini kegs. All ads state 
that these are 2.5 gallon aluminum mini kegs with prices ranging from $5-$15. 
I don't have much space for a "kegging operation" and I think that one of 
these would fit nicely in my setup. Has anyone ever used one of these for 
kegging home brew? If so, how difficult was it to modify the keg for home use?

JMA


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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: SG from OG

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager....

>Does anyone know of a formula for estimating final gravity from
>original gravity?  I know there some complicating factors with any
>such formula.
>However, such a formula would be useful if it exists for formulating
>recipes.

FG ~OG/4 (and then Nature has her way with it).

It will, of course, depend on your wort composition, fermentation
conditions, yeast strain, etc, but the above is a pretty good rule of
thumb. I always assume my FG will be one quarter of my OG, and am rarely
disappointed by very much. (Anectdote: I've split identical batches
between two outwardly identical fermenters, and pitched the same yeast
from the same starter. And have come up with an FG in one slightly higher
than 1/4 of the OG, and slightly lower in the other - Nature is variable.) 

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:32:17 -0700
From: "Rich, Charles" <CRich at filenet.com>
Subject: SMM attenuation in p-cooked wort

With the recent conversation between Eric Panther and Steve Alexander
regarding SMM attenuation during the boil, I looked back to George Fix's
graph of the SMM attenation rates depending on temperature.

Just extrapolating by eyeball the rates for a 250F "boil", it looks like
40-minutes at these temps reduces the quantity of SMM to nearly the same
levels as a full ninety minute boil.  That's a pretty decisive reduction.  

After p-cooking wort, a conventional boil is still needed in order to
evacuate the DMS which is formed from SMM in the p-cooker but it's pretty
volatile stuff and blows off quickly.  The boil will also continue to
further reduce SMM.

In the 'Brewing Techniques' article about using pressure cookers, the author
added p-cooked wort at the *end of boil* and found vegetal notes in their
beer.  Brewers, Don't do that!

Cheers,
Charles Rich


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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:37:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Lagering schedule


Greetings all!  Last week I finally added a Johnson Controls controler to my
old beer fridge and I am now ready to try lagering!  I have experimented with
a carboy of water and a thermometer and the controller works great.  A few
days ago I brewed a German pilsen an would appreciate some advice or 
suggestions as to the lagering schedule. I started the  ferment at room 
temperature for about 12 hours then moved the carboy to the fridge when I was
sure fermentationhad started. I initially set the temperature to 56^F and the
carboy showed around 60-62^F, after a couple of days I started dropping the 
controller a degree each day, now the fridge is at 50^F and the carboy 
is setting at 56^F, fermentation is slowing down (I need to take a gravity
reading) and once it is complete what cooling schedule should I use?
My initial thought was to wait for 10-12 days after pitching and then drop the
temperature to 32^F for a couple of weeks, filter into my keg force pressure
and serve.  Your suggestions and comments would be appreciated.

As a side note I used White Labs "pitchable" German Pils. yeast without a 
starter and I had fermentation within 10-12 hours of pitching (I was a bit
worried as I had purchased the yeast 2 months prior to use and had simply
kept it in the family fridge).

Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen)
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:07:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Reynolds Number


> Here is another clue in case you still dont get it.  The RN values
> of 13,500 and 5500 differ by a factor of 2.455.  This factor is
> awfully close to the mass density of water (2.094 lbs s^2 /
> ft^4). As I indicated in my previous post, rho/mu = nu.  Is it
> starting to sink in yet?
> 
> Dr. Beer

<sigh> it's also pretty close to the difference between using water or
wort, as Steve correctly did.  

it's mean-spirited, petty crap like this that keeps a lot of us from
contributing.  

 -SM-


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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:27:26 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: Sour mash terminology

Stephen Alexander replies:

>>> note the difference 
>>>between a (bacterial) acid rest and a sourmash. 
>> 
>>I've always made a concentrated sour mash.
>
>Sourmashing is a method used in whiskey production that adds roughly 25% of 
>fully fermented beer (setback) to fresh wort. This immediately drops the pH 
>and gives an advantage to yeast over certain other bacteria. I don't think 
>anyone sourmashes beer.

I believe I misinterpreted your original observation.  I assumed that by
"acid rest" you were referring to the body (38F) temperature rest used in
traditional decoction mashing.  The mash _could_ be allowed to sit for an
extended period of time at 38-40F while the bacteria lower the pH for you.

I make a bacterial sour mash, not a whiskey sour mash.  I mash in 5-15% of
my pale malt, innoculate it with Lactobacillus, and hold it at 120F for
24-72 hours while the Lactobacillus drops the pH down to 3.5 to 4.0.  I add
the 5-15% to the main mash as I mash in to drop the overall pH and add the
character I want.  By "concentrated", I mean that I sour only a fraction of
the mash ahead of time, and not the whole mash.  

What I'm wondering is if anyone out there allows his/her *whole* mash to
sit, say, overnight at a low temperature to allow the bacteria in the malt
to acidify it.

Paul Claassen (Teutonic Brewer)
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico




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Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:57:38 EDT
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: But tubing is tubing is tubing

Kirk Fleming wrote a while back:

"All that said, my next RIMS system will be based on either diaphragm or
peristaltic pumps, rather than the impeller type.  All the benefits that
peristaltic pumps have for pumping blood, pharmaceuticals, etc., should
apply somewhat to wort as well (sanitizability & no shear)..."

Stephen Alexander replied:

"Turbulent flow in a tube is a Reynolds Number RN >2200 where
RN = rho * vbar * Diam / nu  For 20P maltose solution at 20C, 1/4"ID,
1gal/min the RN is about 5500.  The RN will be even higher at higher temps
(lower viscosity).  The RN will be proportional to the flow rate.  For a
given flow rate, increasing the tubing diameter causes a proportional
decrease in RN..."

Ouch, my head...

"...Unless you are willing to live with less than about 0.4 gal/min  at 1/4"ID, 
or
find a peristaltic pump to handle >1/2" ID tubing, you will have turbulent
flow..."

Now, I have no idea about who's calculations are correct, Paul Niebergall's 
or Stephen's but one thing that is being overlooked is that although there 
may be some turbulence in a peristaltic pump, it seems to me that this type 
of pump adds on very little turbulence to what would already be there in the 
first place. The wort has to flow through tubing no matter what kind of pump 
is being used. 
Having said that, I'd like to point out that peristaltic pumps aren't exactly 
high tech devices. Any handy guy or gal with a drill, band saw and/or a 
router plus a little know-how could make a peristaltic pump out of a gear 
motor and some rollers (perhaps your kid's skateboard wheels?). Then 1/2 inch 
tubing could easily be accommodated. A 7 inch diameter "track" using 5/8 ID 
tubing at 50 RPM would pump ~1 gallon a minute. I don't know if that is 
enough for a RIMS or not...
I swear I saw a homemade peri-pump strapped to the side of a brewing set up 
on somebody's web-site. Anyone know where it is?

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ

"Are we not men? We are Pivo!"




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