---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Cut Off In Mid Flight ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Pap Zap Setup (Bill Steadman)
  Re: Where went the Brewery? (Greg Remake)
  hop teas, FWH, and Windsor dry yeast questions ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Zapap, drilling enamel, (Dave Burley)
  RE: help with Full Sail Amber ale recipe ("Pat Galvin")
  Hurrah! (David A Bradley)
  FW: beer song (Ian Smith)
  Brewery (pbabcock)
  mini-kegs vs. soda kegs (MVachow)
  Welcome Back, Thanks  and AHA ("Rick Wood")
  bucket with bazillion holes in it (amgrady)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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JANITORS on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:11:40 +1000
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Cut Off In Mid Flight

     After my last post where I made mention of a hearty and jovial
collection of home brewers who gathered for a weekly get together at Regan's
"Black Hole", I was besieged by email of varied content, some of which was
not encouraging. Though some folk asked for directions to the "Black Hole",
others clearly took umbrage. I was not able to reply publicly to any of this
as Pat called "time out" and the HBD vanished from my screen. For the first
few days I assumed I was being vindictively punished for drinking too much
Mudgee Mud and writing irrelevant posts. But when Steve Alexander contacted
me to say the same had happened to him, I just knew it was more serious.
Thanks Pat and Karl for all your efforts in getting the show back on the
road.
     Now to finish business. Dave Lamotte was outraged that I should suggest
anywhere other than Newcastle could be referred to as the "Black Hole".
Dave, I was not referring to the "Black Hole" of Australia (to which I
totally agree Newcastle holds the title unchallenged) but rather to the
"Black Hole" of the Homebrew universe. This is not so much a place where the
folks meet as it is a place where the spokes meet! The centre of it all! And
as Dave admitted, no finer gathering of homebrewers is likely to be found.

And Doc Pivo is still talking about Gil's Pils, though it was Bavarian, not
Czech. Sorry for my failing memory.

Cheers
Phil Yates.




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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:53:41 -0500 
From: Bill Steadman <Bsteadman at elicheesecake.com>
Subject: Pap Zap Setup

You wrote:
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 16:00:58 EDT
From: JohnT6020 at aol.com
Subject: Perforated sparge bucket

Flossmoor  IL 99-10-03  at  0742 CDT

Fellow Brewers:

I'm looking for one of those primitive sparge buckets that consisted of a 
five-gallon plastic pail with a zillion small holes in the bottom.  They
have 
a nickname but I cannot recall it.  I need one for some experiments.

If anyone has one they are willing to part with for a nominal amount of cash

and the effort to ship it to me, please e-mail me.

73,
JET


Isn't drilling those zillion holes part of some all grain ritual? How could
you insult all your fellow homebrewers by purchasing one of these devices?
bwahahahah.. just kiddin'


Bill



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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 07:56:21 -0600
From: Greg Remake <gremake at gsbalum.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Where went the Brewery?

Pat said:

"The Brewery is part and parcel (though Karl maintains separate rights to
it...) of the Digest server. When the Digest server went belly up, so did
The Brewery. It's back on line now."

I can access the The Brewery page, but none of the links work for me, like
Recipator or HBD.  What gives?

Cheers,

Greg


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 09:44:00 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: hop teas, FWH, and Windsor dry yeast questions

Thanks to the Digest janitors for getting it back online.  Great job guys.

Afternoon folks.

I am considering the use of hop teas and first wort hopping in some test
batchs.  Could you please explain the procedures and rough quantities for
each of these hopping methods.  

Like do you leave FWH hops in the kettle during the boil or do you take out
the hops that were in with the sparging wort and replace with new ones for
the boil.  Do these hops contribute to bitterness and any idea of how much.

Also, how much water and hops is a good place to start for a hop tea?
Should the water be boiling?  And should it be left boiling once hops are
added? How long?  And is it best to use hop teas like dry hops only in the
keg?

How would you explain what these methods add to a brew.  Do they add
different atributes than normal dry hopping and bittering in the kettle? 

Yes, yes, lots of questions on hops.

Now the dry yeast question.

I used Lallemand dry yeast Windsor variety in an ESB style ale with OG at
1.055 or so.  FG was 1.020.

Anybody else experience similar performance?  I used 3 packs of dry for a 4
gall. recipe.

Also, the beer never dropped clear.  Even in the keg.  (Primary for a week,
secondary for a week, and atleast 2 - 3 weeks in the keg now) .Fermentation
temps was about 58 to 64F (I use a basement in an AC house) but don't
normally have problems with liquid yeast atleast (this was my first batch
with dry yeast in about 3 years - since i first started brewing).

Any comments can be posted or send via private email.

Thanks for all the help.  The fall brewing season is soon to be strongly
underway.

Pete Czerpak
Waterford, NY

pete.czerpak at siigroup.com


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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:15:10 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Zapap, drilling enamel,

Brewsters:

JET asks for the name of those funny buckets with holes
in them used for lautering and would like someone to
send him one for an experiment. Rather than asking  for
someone to send you one why not just make it from
local materials.  It is a few minutes' work once you
have the raw materials.

C. Papazian modestly named them "Zapap" tuns in
his first Joy of Homebrewing. I used something
similar before I ever read JOHB, but with not so
many holes or I used a plastic collander and some
nylon  screen wire at various times in my independent
development work of all-grain mashing. His (?) idea to
go to a deli ( no pickles please) and get two identical,
handleless food grade buckets free of charge and
poke holes in one of them  and put a spigot on the
other was a good one and one I used for many years.
 I think the original Zapap just had a hole in the
side with a hose coming out. I put a spigot on mine.
It is so simple it is classic.

One modification I suggest is to lead the spigot out
of the bottom rather than the side so you reduce
the dead volume of the tun. I hang my spigot over
the edge of the sink, you may wish to support it on
a couple of two-by-fours or whatever.  Remember
you have to be able to shut this off occasionally,
but that is not really a problem as the whole
apparatus can be lifted to do it or raising the exit
hose will stop this also. This will definitely lower
dead volume to keep the sparge from "smearing"
and give you a cleaner cutoff volume. If you wish,
a screen wire over the spigot will prevent
plugging of the spigot, if that is a problem.
Sometimes this screen itself is a problem. In
either event, lifting the bucket with the holes into
another container allows you to clean it out.
I think this has happened to me once
or twice in many years, so don't worry, just get a
third bucket with no holes and no spigot as a
backup. This is a good idea anyway to have a
sparge bucket of the correct size handy. as
eventually the inner bucket will croak. I know.
I have even gone so far as to fix the tears in
the bottom with a hot-melt glue gun and
polyethylene/polypropylene sticks when I
discovered the problem as I was getting
ready to lauter.

As far as the hole poking goes, don't bother with
a drill. Go outside ( to avoid the smoke and smell)
use a hot  pencil soldering iron ( being a Ham this
should be no problem for you)  and just poke
away. This is MUCH faster than a drill and the
sides are smooth ( read easily kept clean).

Couter-intuitively, Large holes are OK as the
filtering gets done by the bed.

Smaller holes can be made with a large piece of
copper wire wound around the tip.The only time I
ever had a serious stuck sparge was when I tried
putting a nylon screen mesh in the bottom of this
tun. Don't bother, just plan on recycling a couple
of quarts.

Another modification is to add a  hose from the
spigot to the collecting vessel to prevent mixing
air into the hot wort. Therefore, choose the spigot
with a large internal opening so it will pass bits of
grain at first , but a small enough spout that it will
accept a small hose. These are available from
most home brew shops 


73 and 88 to the XYL,
- -----------------------------------------
Sebastian asks how to drill enamel without
chipping it.  I can suggest putting tape over it
and do a series of ever enlarging holes with
sharp drills as the best possibility. Frankly,
I think you will sacrifice a nice large kettle
for nothing. Why not go out and buy a
couple of those cheap Korean-made thin
SS 4 gallon pots and drill those if you must?
These 4 gallon pots boil much faster and fit on
stove tops, don't chip and don't get iron in your
beer and don't have connections which can
harbor bad guys, depending on how you
use this.


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley
Anderson, SC my new  QTH
KC2LZ

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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 08:01:33 -0700
From: "Pat Galvin" <Pat_Galvin at ermwest.com>
Subject: RE: help with Full Sail Amber ale recipe

In Digest No. 3135, Patrick Finerty asks about bitterness levels in his planned
Full Sail Amber Ale Clone.  Refer to Full Sail's web page at
http://www.fullsailbrewing.com/fsbcbrews2.htm.   Full Sail AmberAle is described
as having 42 IBUs.  The O.G. is 1.058 and the beer is 6% alcohol by volume.  I
made a Full Sail VSP clone a few months ago and emailed the BrewMaster with
questions.  He responded promptly and was very helpful.  Good Luck.
Pat Galvin
Folsom, CA




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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 10:20:37 -0500
From: David A Bradley <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: Hurrah!



Welcome back HBD (thanks Pat, Karl, contributors!).

Have you brewed any style of _beer_ with elderberries?
I found nothing in the archives on this (except wines).
I have an elderberry/ginger brown ale in mind and recipe.

Speaking of archives, those new to HBD should check the
archive search engines (see server info in header) to find
answers to many things.  Its invaluable and offers a wealth
of good information.  Use it in good health!

Dave in Indy
Home of the moved/renamed Naptown Brewing Company, Ltd.




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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 10:09:18 -0600 
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: FW: beer song

Glad the HBD is back!!!



	  >         -(-(--_
	>        / ( (    \       DO-RE-MI  BEER, by Homer J. Simpson.
        >       |     __  __)     DOUGH... the stuff...that buys me beer...
       >       |    /  \/  \     RAY..... the guy that
 >      /\/\ (o   )o  )             sells me beer...
 >      /c    \__/ --.     ME...... the guy...
>     (              )             who drinks the beer,
 >      \_   _-------'     FAR..... the distance to my beer.
     >       |  /         \    SO...... I think I'll have a beer.
      >       | | '\_______)    LA...... La, la la la la beer
     >       |  \_____)        TEA..... no thanks,
   >       |_____ |                   I'm drinking beer...
   >       |______/\/\       That will bring us back to...
 >      /         \        (Looks into an empty glass)
>                              D'OH!




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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:18:42 -0400 (EWT)
From: pbabcock <pbabcock at mail.oeonline.com>
Subject: Brewery


Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

On Mon, 4 Oct 1999 Greg wrote:
 
> I can access the The Brewery page, but none of the links work for me, like
> Recipator or HBD.  What gives?

Well, as with anything the magnitude of which the Digest server just went
through, there's bound to be things that get "broken". Unfortunately, the
Brewery appears to have been one of the casualties. The HBD *M*A*S*H* has
the site in triage at the moment, and expects a successful surgical
operation and quick recovery....

(And we're working on the counters, too...)

 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at oeonline.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org   
The Home Brew Page                 http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
   "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:46:25 -0500 
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject:  mini-kegs vs. soda kegs



> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Vachom 
> Sent:	Thursday, September 30, 1999 8:40 AM
> To:	'post@hbd.org'
> Subject:	mini-kegs vs. soda kegs
> 
> Keith inquires about the relative costs of min-kegs and soda kegs.
> Although getting set up with mini-kegs may be cheaper, the long run costs
> quickly make soda kegs cheaper.  My understanding is that it takes one CO2
> cartridge to carbonate and dispense a 5L mini-keg.  St. Pat's sells a box
> of 10 cartridges for $13.50.  That's about two bucks more than what I pay
> to have my 40 lb. CO2 canister filled at the local industrial gas supply
> place.  I carbonate and dispense about 80-100 gallons of beer before I
> have to go down to the gas supply place again.  The equivalent CO2 cost in
> cartridges to carbonate and dispense 100 gallons of beer would be $102.60
> if you bought them from St. Pat's.  Likewise, it's my understanding that a
> mini-keg has a finite lifetime, usually about 10 fillings.  If you had 5
> mini-kegs, you would have had to replace them at least once during our
> comparative period.  Mini-kegs go for $6.50 at St. Pat's; that's another
> $32.50 for one replacement.  Soda kegs, if they're looked after properly,
> have indefinite lifetimes.  Thus, after the start-up costs, a soda keg
> brewer can carbonate and dispense his 100 gallons of beer for a ten spot,
> a mini-kegger will be $130 bucks in the hole.  After the comparative
> period, the two brewers are even on cost, and the mini-kegger will slip
> behind $120 on each subsequent 100 gallons of beer.  
> 
> Mike
> New Orleans, LA


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Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 09:39:34 +1000
From: "Rick Wood" <thewoods at netpci.com>
Subject: Welcome Back, Thanks  and AHA

Hello All,
I just had to comment regarding the latest difficulties:

1.  It was a very difficult 3 weeks without the HBD.  Welcome back and
thanks to the Janitors for all the hard work required to get the HBD back.
Thanks to all.

2.  Thanks to Ken Schramm for his reasoned approach to the AHA.  He is the
type of person that has the answer to fix the AHA if it is fixable.
Frankly, I think it is fixable, and without too much work.

3.  Also, thanks to Jim Liddil for reiterating his approach.  His approach,
especially when seen next to Ken's, makes the differences seem so stark.  I
personally have no doubt which approach is most likely to succeed.

An example of the Jim Liddil approach can be found in his statement:

>Previously Jim Parker was working on getting student rates for the ASBC
>for AHA members.
>The yeast culturing workshops are also a big hit and go along way towards
>putting Wyeast out of business.

In his crusade against AHA he just couldn't miss an "opportunity" to comment
on his crusade against Wyeast.  Certainly a difficult one for me to
understand as I think the loss of Wyeast would be worse than the loss of
Brewing Techniques.  Perhaps if I were as great as Jim Liddil I would also
crusade against something I no longer need.  However,  I like to think I
would be a little more reasoned than that.

In any case to everyone out there:  We almost all agreed that Brewing
Techniques was the best magazine for our purposes.  I, for one, received my
Zymurgy, my New Brewer and (off subject) my Brew Your Own at their appointed
times.  I also got to read my AHA forum and my IBS forum during the absence
of HBD.  I did not receive my BT.  So I thank the AHA and AOB for the work
they have done and continue to do.  I hope that they improve, and with
people like Ken Schramm and others, I have no doubt that they will.

Perhaps when I personally attain perfection I will start expecting it of
others?

Regards
Rick Wood
"Brewing on Guam and saying YES to AHA, AOB, Wyeast and now Ken Schramm!"







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Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 21:52:39 -0400
From: amgrady at together.net
Subject: bucket with bazillion holes in it

JET (JohnT6020 at aol.com) wrote in looking for someone to part with one of
those "primitive sparge buckets with a zillion holes in the bottom".  He
couldn't recall the nickname.

"Primitive?!?"  Please.*  John, this essential piece of apparatus is
called a "zapap" lauter tun, and it is all I have ever used (for
lautering) to make dozens of 5 gal all-grain batches of homebrew.  My
cost was <$5 at CT Farm and Country, plus a half hour of my time
drilling those bazillion holes you mention.  I doubt anyone could ship
one to you cheaper - I would just make one!

This allows me the opportunity to mention how inexpensively one can go
all-grain; make yourself one of these lauter tuns (you just use your
bottling bucket for the 'outer hull'), get a 2nd 4 gallon pot ($20) for
doing a full boil (you already have <one>, right?), and save a few 2
litre pop bottles for aid in chilling in your bathtub (sanitize and fill
pop bottles with water, freeze, rotate into boiling pots while chilling,
I use 4 total, 20 min to chill to 70F).  Mash in one of your 4 gal. pots
(keep warm in a low oven, or do step mashing, whatever), lauter in your
zapap, boil in your two pots, chill in your tub with pop bottles, and
you are an all-grain expert!  Incremental cost addition to your current
equipment: ~$25.  Additional time per batch: about 2-2.5 hrs. 
Improvement to your beer: immeasurable!  (Well, OK, maybe
measureable...but definitely an improvement!)

(*John, I am just messing with you here...nothing wrong with your
question!  BTW, there was a good Zymurgy article 'road testing' several
lautering setups in the 1995 special issue (Great Grains, vol 18
#4)...written by hbd's Al Korzonas...if that is what your experiment
involves.)

Matt Grady
Burlington, Vermont


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