HOMEBREW Digest #3146 Sat 16 October 1999

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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  Pin-Lock Fittings & Poppets ("Poirier, Bob")
  Re: Cran-Beer ("Kelly")
  Cyser Problem! (Calgarey Penn)
  cloudy? ("Paul Niebergall")
  Re: Starter stepup (Demonick)
  Re: Yeast Starter Step Sizes ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: Convert Sankey to Corny? (phil sides jr)
  re: Starter Step-Up Rates (John_E_Schnupp)
  Conversion of Sankey to Corny... (Badger Roullett)
  smaller co2 tank for kegging (Stuart Ing)
  re sankey to corny (Rick Lassabe)
  Re: stepping-up starters (Bob Sheck)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:00:43 -0500 From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com> Subject: Pin-Lock Fittings & Poppets Greetings! I posted this same question to another forum a few days ago, but received no responses. Maybe I can find some answers here... I'm having trouble getting the old poppet valves (which are very nasty looking) out of the pin lock fittings. They seem to be locked into the fitting - there is a "ridge" (for lack of a better term) around the inside circumference of the fitting, and the legs of the poppet valve are pushing down on to this ridge. I've tried getting the poppets out with a dental-type probe and needle nose pliers - no luck! Is there a simple trick?? And what about cleaning them in place. Is it sufficient to simply run a cleaning solution - followed by hot water - through the fittings? Thanks, Bob P. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:06:22 -0500 From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> Subject: Re: Cran-Beer Actually, I'd love to.....but, it was one of my first batches....and I wasn't in the habit of writing anything down... :-( I am still an extract brewer and this was an extract batch. I remember I used about 6 lbs Alexanders's x-tra light malt extract....and about 3 lbs of Alexanders Wheat extract.....I'm not sure about the hops....it had both a boiling and finishing hops...not too strong....I can't remember what adjunct grains I used.... I used about 3 bags of fresh cranberries that I crushed lightly....I added this to the slightly cooled wort. When the wort was down to yeast temp, I pitched and let ferment. I believe I used a Wyeast Ale yeast. I didn't do a secondary ferment.....just bottled it....and let it bottle condition for about 2-3 weeks. It had a great 'twang' to it....but, not too sweet, and not too sour. I had people who don't like beer as a rule to enjoy this one..... I may try to recreate it and actually write things down this time!! :-D Kelly - -----Original Message----- From: Larry.Leranth at wisconsingas.com <Larry.Leranth at wisconsingas.com> To: kgrigg at diamonddata.com <kgrigg at diamonddata.com> Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:50 AM Subject: Cran-Beer Could you please send me your recipe for your " Cran - Beer " or post in on the HBD for all to enjoy.... TIA Larry Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:21:49 -0500 From: cpenn at interaccess.com (Calgarey Penn) Subject: Cyser Problem! Hi everyone, I have long been interested in making a cyser. (honey and apple juice) I have a lot of experience with mead, sake and lots of different kinds of beers, so I am not new to the brewing world. But, I have run into a problem with this cyser. I used 4 gallons of sweet, freshly squeezed apple juice and 5 pounds of local honey. I used 4 tablets of Campden and waited 18 hours to pitch the yeast. I used a 500 ml starter made with Pasteur Champagne yeast. After 24 hours...no visible sign of fermentation. After and additional 24 hours, still nothing! I added more yeast and throughly areated the must. Anyone have any suggestions? My cellar is at a constant temperature of 64 degrees F. Might this be too cool? Thanks in advance. Calgarey "Whatever you can do, or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it." Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:11:25 -0500 From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com> Subject: cloudy? Dave writes: >Paul Niebengall's philosophy that the sugar >doesn't go away upon boiling is correct. >His explanation is perhaps a little clouded >by skipping to the ratio of volumes before >and after the boil. It is perhaps simpler to say >that the gravity ( the digits after the decimal >point in an SG measurement X 1000) times >the volume is constant during the boil. Its not really a "philosophy", its pretty much a scientific fact. Im not trying to nit pick here, but didnt I post the following?: >Original wort SG = 1.052 >BMUs = .052 >Original Wort Volume = 12 gallons >Final Wort Volume = 10 gallons >Final SG = (12/10 * 0.052) + 1 >Final SG = 1.062 and Dave wrote: >Gi X Vi = Gf X Vf Duh, this is simply a re-arrangement of the equation that I posted. What Dave has posted and what I posted are two forms of the exact same equation. It doesnt seem at all "clouded" to me. Paul Niebergall Burns & McDonnell pnieb at burnsmcd.com "Illegitimis non carborundum" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:14:14 -0700 From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com> Subject: Re: Starter stepup My last post, in effect pooh-poohing step-up ratios may have been misinterpreted. A few individuals that I greatly respect have sent me responses, and it is clear that my opinion needs clarification. I am a BIG believer in large, healthy starters. I invest considerable time and energy in producing the best starters that I can. Healthy yeast stock, fully nutritious wort (use yeast nutrient), constant or periodic aeration, all these lead to healthy starters. (I also let my starters drop clear with a bit of help from the refrigerator, but that's a different controversy.) Obviously, yeast/starter health and management is VERY, VERY important. It is a first order relationship with brew quality, and ranks well above many of the factors that I listed. It's just that IMHO, step up ratio has little or nothing to do with yeast health. Yeast want to live! When dropped into a juicy food source with few friends, they don't turn up their noses and die. They don't defiantly pick and play with their food. They laugh gleefully and scream, "ALL MINE! ALL MINE!". Brewing yeast is not a timid, fragile beast. It's a voracious, wild animal that will exploit any advantage it may find. Some factors are more important than others. Starters absolutely need, sanitation, aeration, FAN, and sugar. They will well-tolerate, large step ups and refrigeration. Cheers! Domenick Venezia Venezia & Company, LLC Maker of PrimeTab (206) 782-1152 phone (206) 782-6766 fax orders demonick at zgi dot com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:49:42 -0400 From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu> Subject: Re: Yeast Starter Step Sizes Hi all. Spencer Thomas and others here have pointed out what sounds to me like a valid reason for limiting step sizes (dilutions) during the process of generating a yeast starter. I saw no need for this from the point of view of the yeast which should care little whether or not they are alone or in a group. I am assuming there is no real effect of dilution on yeast growth rate, though I would love to see any documentation to the contrary. My unspoken (and indeed unconscious) assumption was that the innoculation(s) would be performed under sterile conditions into sterile wort, an assumption that will clearly be invalid in the homebrew setting! Unfortunately, there will be bacteria around and it is apparently for this reason that limited dilutions (4X, 6X, 10X,) be used during the stepping-up process. In the limiting case, one can start a culture from a single yeast cell and grow up as much yeast as one desires (we do it all the time in the lab). However, suppose you started this culture and there was also a single bacterial cell present initially as well. Under optimal conditions the bacteria will be able to reproduce at a much faster ratet than the yeast cell and will take over the culture in short order. This is of course, the extreme case and the more yeast that are present the faster they will dominate the culture and create conditions that suppress bacterial growth (eat up available nutrients, spit out "poisons" like alcohol, lower pH). Therefore, the idea is apparently to start each step with enough yeast such that they will quickly establish themselves and inhibit any bacteria present (or introduced). This sounds to me like a reasonable explaination for keeping the step sizes down while making a starter. However, being skeptical, I'd like to see some data on this, especially on how much you actually can dilute the starter without seeing any problems. Perhaps some experiments are in order here.... "Quick Robin, to the Batcave!" -Alan Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:31:08 -0400 From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net> Subject: Re: Convert Sankey to Corny? Ian Smith writes: >There is a way of making the oval corny opening in a sankey keg. I'm not >sure where I saw it but all you have to do is purchase an extra corny lid >and o-ring and voila! You have the traditional corny opening and an easier >way of cleaning out the keg (by getting your whole arm down in there!). Has >anyone out there seen this type of setup? How difficult is it to cut the >necessary hole? Does it work? I have definitely seen them converted 'the other way' (sankey valves on cornies) and Sabco Industires http://www.kegs.com makes them that way (the usual, no affiliation...). Lots of the brewpubs and micros in my neck of the woods use them. But I have not seen a conversion the other way, although it seems feasible. I would say it would be very difficult to do on your own, because the corny lids fit in a die stamped hole. This is considerably more complicated than using a plasma torch to cut an oval hole in the keg. I have a homebrewing friend that works in a machine shop that can make virtually anything out of stainless, so I am sure it is possible ;-) Maybe Spartanburg would make them special-order too... Anybody ever seen one? Phil Sides, Jr. Concord, NH - -- Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost! Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:27:37 -0700 From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com Subject: re: Starter Step-Up Rates Kyle is asking about starters: >It is time for the HBD to weigh in on this matter, what say yea all? Here's how I typically do my starters. I can wort in both quart jars and 12 oz bottles. My wort is 1# DME in 1 gal water with about 1/4 oz hop pellets and 1/8 tsp yeast nutrient. I fill the bottles to shoulder (where the neck starts) which is around 10 oz. The quarts are filled to the threads. I pre-boil the wort for 15-20 mins and use a boiling water for another 15-20 minutes to can. My starters take a couple days. I add one smack pack of Wyeast to 2 bottles of wort (about 600 ml). I continuously stir and aerate. I aerate by continuously purging the head space of the starter jug with HEPA filtered air from an aquarium pump. I've been told that the stirring action is enough to keep the starter aerated (I do not bubble the air into the wort). I add 1 qt about 24 hours later followed by another 1 qt in another 24 hours, all the while stirring and aerating. After the addition of the final 1 qt I have close to 3L in a 4L wine jug. It doesn't take very long for the final quart to be consumed. After which I stop the stirring but keep the filtered air purging. I like to allow at least 24 hours for the suspended yeast to drop out but sometimes it isn't possible. Putting the starter in the fridge helps. On brew day, I remove the clear liquid and leave the yeast. I've been getting 1/4"-3/8" of yeast. One final quart is added and the stirrer is turned on without aeration. I go about my brewing and 4-5 hours later the yeast is fully active when I'm ready to pitch it. I used to think that lag times of 2-4 hours were a bunch of BS, but since I've started using this starter procedure (for ales) I've been getting, seriously, activity in the blowoff tube within 2 hours. How much yeast am I getting? I don't know. Are my steps optimal? Again, I don't know. Certainly the first step, approx 600 ml is greater than some of the recommended steps. Don't tell my yeast they don't know! But I can tell you that judging by the fermentation I've been getting and the improved quality of my beer, IMO, I'm doing something correctly. I've been thinking of changing my procedure and doing the yeast "refresh" while I'm mashing to somewhat shorten my day but mainly to give me something to do during this otherwise idle time. I also have recently acquired a 6L erlenmeyer flask which I want to start using instead of the 4L wine jug. CD Pritchard got me to try using some foam control in my last starter and I must say that 1 drop per quart per step made a huge difference. I used to have problems with especially active yeast blowing out of the jug but now I get 1/2"-3/4" of foam max, even on the last step (I'm almost tempted to try adding an extra quart of starter in the wine jug). I've not yet made a lager using this procedure but I I use the 6L flask it should be no problem. I also have a 3 gallon carboy that would be great for making REALLY large starters, but I've not been able to adequately keep a stir bar coupled thru the thick bottom of the carboy. John Schnupp, N3CNL Dirty Laundry Brewery Colchester, VT 95 XLH 1200 Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:38:21 -0700 From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com> Subject: Conversion of Sankey to Corny... From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com> Subject: convert sankey to corny? >There is a way of making the oval corny opening in a sankey keg. I'm not >sure where I saw it but all you have to do is purchase an extra corny lid >and o-ring and voila! You have the traditional corny opening and an easier >way of cleaning out the keg (by getting your whole arm down in there!). Has >anyone out there seen this type of setup? How difficult is it to cut the >necessary hole? Does it work? I have heard of this, and would like to see it again. But my question is a little different. Once you replace the lid... Is there a way to add the fittings as well, so I could use my 15 gallon Sankeys as a full fledged Corney? sure it would be interesting to make sure the dip tube is set right, But i would be willing to lose a few inches of beer, to be able to Ferment in one, use CO2 to transfer to another converted sanky/corny keg, and dispense. How does one add fittings to a container (hopefully) without welding. is there a way? badger Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:03:24 -1000 From: Stuart Ing <stuarti at lava.net> Subject: smaller co2 tank for kegging How much co2 is required to carbonate and dispense a 5 gal. batch of beer. I'm looking for a more portable way to carry around my co2 besides my 10# tank. I happen to have smaller co2 tanks 7, 12, and 20 oz. size (they're for paintball). Would any of these tanks be big enough to do the job? - -- Stu stuarti at lava.net penfold314 at hotmail.com ICQ# 37779652 - ------------------------------------------------------------ "This hat's not big enough for both of us" :Guinan - ------------------------------------------------------------ Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:04:28 -0500 From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net> Subject: re sankey to corny Ian Smith asked about converting kegs.... I converted a sankey keg to a corny keg by taking a corny keg, ( one without the rubber around the top) and cutting the top off the corny about 1 1/2 inches down from the top. I then placed this on top of a sankey and traced around the edge, I moved in 1/16 inch a cut out the top of the sankey, after some tedious grinding, sanding and a few cuss words I got what I prefer to call a coal oil joint, ( any old carpenters out there??) I took the kegs to a sheet metal shop and had the two welded. What I ended up with was a great looking sankey keg with ball lock fittings and only a small (1/8 inch) weld around the edge where the corny fit next to the sankey. I have used this keg for a fermented by simply attaching a bubblier (sp) type air lock to the "in" side of the keg. Works great and it cost me about $80.00. I don't mean to make this sound easy; this requires a great deal of work to get the proper fit. If you are adapt with metal cutting tools then you can do it also. You might want to look at the Sabco web page at their fermenters. (Standard disclaimer here) Rick Lassabe Bayrat's Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:06:35 -0400 From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net> Subject: Re: stepping-up starters Bare minimum? Wal- OK- I just throw into my primary fermenter about 2 or 3 packs of DRY yeast and pour the wort onto it from a height of 4 feet or so. Woiks good for me. Generally have bubbles after a couple of hours. So much for science! Go figger: Beer Happens! >I don't see any reason for there to be a limit on the dilution of yeast >cells you can perform in stepping up the yeast. >My advice to you is to decrease the number of steps to a bare >minimum. Ideally, this would mean going right from your 50 ml >smack pack to whatever starter volume you are shooting for. bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at: http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/ (252)830-1833 - ------------- Suppose you were an idiot ... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeat myself. - -- Mark Twain Return to table of contents
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