---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Pin-Lock Fittings & Poppets ("Poirier, Bob")
  Re: Cran-Beer ("Kelly")
  Cyser Problem! (Calgarey Penn)
  cloudy? ("Paul Niebergall")
  Re: Starter stepup (Demonick)
  Re: Yeast Starter Step Sizes ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: Convert Sankey to Corny? (phil sides jr)
  re: Starter Step-Up Rates (John_E_Schnupp)
  Conversion of Sankey to Corny... (Badger Roullett)
  smaller co2 tank for kegging (Stuart Ing)
  re sankey to corny (Rick Lassabe)
  Re: stepping-up starters (Bob Sheck)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:00:43 -0500
From: "Poirier, Bob" <Bob_Poirier at adc.com>
Subject: Pin-Lock Fittings & Poppets

Greetings!

I posted this same question to another forum a few days ago, but received no 
responses.  Maybe I can find some answers here...

I'm having trouble getting the old poppet valves (which are very nasty 
looking) out of the pin lock fittings. They seem to be locked into the 
fitting - there is a "ridge" (for lack of a better term) around the inside 
circumference of the fitting, and the legs of the poppet valve are pushing 
down on to this ridge. I've tried getting the poppets out with a dental-type 
probe and needle nose pliers - no luck! Is there a simple trick??

And what about cleaning them in place.  Is it sufficient to simply run a 
cleaning solution - followed by hot water - through the fittings?

Thanks,
Bob P.


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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:06:22 -0500
From: "Kelly" <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Subject: Re: Cran-Beer

Actually, I'd love to.....but, it was one of my first batches....and I
wasn't in the habit of writing anything down...
:-(

I am still an extract brewer and this was an extract batch.  I remember I
used about 6 lbs Alexanders's x-tra light malt extract....and about 3 lbs of
Alexanders Wheat extract.....I'm not sure about the hops....it had both a
boiling and finishing hops...not too strong....I can't remember what adjunct
grains I used....

I used about 3 bags of fresh cranberries that I crushed lightly....I added
this to the slightly cooled wort.  When the wort was down to yeast temp, I
pitched and let ferment.  I believe I used a Wyeast Ale yeast.  I didn't do
a secondary ferment.....just bottled it....and let it bottle condition for
about 2-3 weeks.  It had a great 'twang' to it....but, not too sweet, and
not too sour.  I had people who don't like beer as a rule to enjoy this
one.....

I may try to recreate it and actually write things down this time!!
:-D

Kelly
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larry.Leranth at wisconsingas.com <Larry.Leranth at wisconsingas.com>
To: kgrigg at diamonddata.com <kgrigg at diamonddata.com>
Date: Friday, October 15, 1999 7:50 AM
Subject: Cran-Beer




Could you please send me your recipe for your " Cran - Beer "  or post in on
the
HBD for all to enjoy....  TIA     Larry




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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:21:49 -0500
From: cpenn at interaccess.com (Calgarey Penn)
Subject: Cyser Problem!

Hi everyone,

I have long been interested in 
making a cyser. (honey and apple juice)

I have a lot of experience with 
mead, sake and lots of different
kinds of beers, so I am not
new to the brewing world.

But, I have run into a problem
with this cyser.

I used 4 gallons of sweet, freshly
squeezed apple juice and 5 pounds of 
local honey.  I used 4 tablets of 
Campden and waited 18 hours to 
pitch the yeast. I used a 500 ml
starter made with Pasteur
Champagne yeast.

After 24 hours...no visible sign of 
fermentation. After and additional
24 hours, still nothing! I added
more yeast and throughly areated 
the must. 

Anyone have any suggestions? My cellar is 
at a constant temperature
of 64 degrees F. Might this be too cool?

Thanks in advance.

Calgarey
"Whatever you can do, or 
dream you can, begin it.
Boldness has genius, power
and magic in it."



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 10:11:25 -0500
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject:  cloudy?

Dave writes:

>Paul Niebengall's philosophy that the sugar
>doesn't go away upon boiling is correct.
>His explanation is perhaps a little clouded
>by skipping to the ratio of volumes before
>and after the boil. It is perhaps simpler to say
>that the gravity ( the digits after the decimal
>point in an SG measurement X 1000) times
>the volume is constant during the boil.

Its not really a "philosophy", its pretty much a scientific fact.
Im not trying to nit pick here, but didnt I post the following?:

>Original wort SG = 1.052
>BMUs = .052
>Original Wort Volume = 12 gallons
>Final Wort Volume = 10 gallons 

>Final SG = (12/10 * 0.052) + 1 
>Final SG = 1.062

and Dave wrote:

>Gi X Vi  = Gf X Vf

Duh, this is simply a re-arrangement of the equation that I posted.  What 
Dave has posted and what I posted are two forms of the exact same 
equation.  It doesnt seem at all "clouded" to me.


Paul Niebergall
Burns & McDonnell
pnieb at burnsmcd.com
"Illegitimis non carborundum"

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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 08:14:14 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Starter stepup


My last post, in effect pooh-poohing step-up ratios may have been 
misinterpreted.  A few individuals that I greatly respect have
sent me responses, and it is clear that my opinion needs
clarification.

I am a BIG believer in large, healthy starters. 

I invest considerable time and energy in producing the best starters
that I can.  Healthy yeast stock, fully nutritious wort (use yeast
nutrient), constant or periodic aeration, all these lead to healthy
starters.  (I also let my starters drop clear with a bit of help from
the refrigerator, but that's a different controversy.)

Obviously, yeast/starter health and management is VERY, VERY
important. It is a first order relationship with brew quality, and
ranks well above many of the factors that I listed.

It's just that IMHO, step up ratio has little or nothing to do with
yeast health.  

Yeast want to live!  When dropped into a juicy food source with few
friends, they don't turn up their noses and die.  They don't defiantly
pick and play with their food.  They laugh gleefully and scream, "ALL
MINE!  ALL MINE!".

Brewing yeast is not a timid, fragile beast.  It's a voracious, wild
animal that will exploit any advantage it may find.  Some factors are
more important than others.  Starters absolutely need, sanitation,
aeration, FAN, and sugar.  They will well-tolerate, large step ups and
refrigeration.

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:49:42 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Re: Yeast Starter Step Sizes

Hi all.

Spencer Thomas and others here have pointed out what sounds to me like a
valid reason for limiting step sizes  (dilutions) during the process of
generating a yeast starter. I saw no need for this from the point of view of
the yeast which should care little whether or not
they are alone or in a group. I am assuming there is no real effect of
dilution on yeast growth rate, though I would love to see any documentation
to the contrary.

My unspoken (and indeed unconscious) assumption was that the innoculation(s)
would be performed under sterile conditions into sterile wort, an assumption
that will clearly be invalid in the homebrew setting! Unfortunately, there
will be bacteria around and it is apparently for this reason that limited
dilutions (4X, 6X, 10X,) be used during the stepping-up process.

In the limiting case, one can start a culture from a single yeast cell and
grow up as much yeast as one desires (we do it all the time in the lab).
However, suppose you started this culture and there was also a single
bacterial cell present initially as well. Under optimal conditions the
bacteria will be able to reproduce at a much faster ratet than the yeast
cell and will take over the culture in short order. This is of course, the
extreme case and the more yeast that are present the faster they will
dominate the culture and create conditions that suppress bacterial growth
(eat up available nutrients, spit out "poisons" like alcohol, lower pH).
Therefore, the idea is apparently to start each step with enough yeast such
that they will quickly establish themselves and inhibit any bacteria present
(or introduced).

This sounds to me like a reasonable explaination for keeping the step sizes
down while making a starter. However, being skeptical, I'd like to see some
data on this, especially on how much you actually can dilute the starter
without seeing any problems. Perhaps some experiments are in order here....
"Quick Robin, to the Batcave!"


 -Alan



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:31:08 -0400
From: phil sides jr <psides at carl.net>
Subject: Re: Convert Sankey to Corny?

Ian Smith writes:

>There is a way of making the oval corny opening in a sankey keg. I'm
not
>sure where I saw it but all you have to do is purchase an extra corny
lid
>and o-ring and voila! You have the traditional corny opening and an
easier
>way of cleaning out the keg (by getting your whole arm down in there!).
Has
>anyone out there seen this type of setup? How difficult is it to cut
the
>necessary hole? Does it work?

I have definitely seen them converted 'the other way' (sankey valves on
cornies) and Sabco Industires http://www.kegs.com makes them that way
(the usual, no affiliation...).  Lots of the brewpubs and micros in my
neck of the woods use them.  But I have not seen a conversion the other
way, although it seems feasible.  I would say it would be very difficult
to do on your own, because the corny lids fit in a die stamped hole.
This is considerably more complicated than using a plasma torch to cut
an oval hole in the keg.  I have a homebrewing friend that works in a
machine shop that can make virtually anything out of stainless, so I am
sure it is possible ;-)  Maybe Spartanburg would make them special-order
too...  Anybody ever seen one?

Phil Sides, Jr.
Concord, NH
- --
Macht nicht o'zapft ist, Prost!



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:27:37 -0700
From: John_E_Schnupp at amat.com
Subject: re: Starter Step-Up Rates

Kyle is asking about starters:
>It is time for the HBD to weigh in on this matter, what say yea all?

Here's how I typically do my starters.

I can wort in both quart jars and 12 oz bottles.  My wort is 1# DME in
1 gal water with about 1/4 oz hop pellets and 1/8 tsp yeast nutrient.
I fill the bottles to shoulder (where the neck starts) which is around
10 oz.  The quarts are filled to the threads.  I pre-boil the wort for
15-20 mins and use a boiling water for another 15-20 minutes to can.

My starters take a couple days.  I add one smack pack of Wyeast to
2 bottles of wort (about 600 ml).  I continuously stir and aerate.  I
aerate by continuously purging the head space of the starter jug with
HEPA filtered air from an aquarium pump.  I've been told that the
stirring action is enough to keep the starter aerated (I do not bubble
the air into the wort).

I add 1 qt about 24 hours later followed by another 1 qt in another
24 hours, all the while stirring and aerating.  After the addition of
the final 1 qt I have close to 3L in a 4L wine jug.  It doesn't take very
long for the final quart to be consumed.  After which I stop the stirring
but keep the filtered air purging.  I like to allow at least 24 hours for
the suspended yeast to drop out but sometimes it isn't possible.  Putting
the starter in the fridge helps.

On brew day, I remove the clear liquid and leave the yeast.  I've been
getting 1/4"-3/8" of yeast.  One final quart is added and the stirrer is
turned on without aeration.  I go about my brewing and 4-5 hours later
the yeast is fully active when I'm ready to pitch it.

I used to think that lag times of 2-4 hours were a bunch of BS, but since
I've started using this starter procedure (for ales) I've been getting,
seriously, activity in the blowoff tube within 2 hours.

How much yeast am I getting?  I don't know.  Are my steps optimal? Again,
I don't know.  Certainly the first step, approx 600 ml is greater than
some of the recommended steps.  Don't tell my yeast they don't know!
But I can tell you that judging by the fermentation I've
been getting and the improved quality of my beer, IMO, I'm doing
something correctly.  I've been thinking of changing my procedure and doing
the yeast "refresh" while I'm mashing to somewhat shorten my day but
mainly to give me something to do during this otherwise idle time.  I
also have recently acquired a 6L erlenmeyer flask which I want to start
using instead of the 4L wine jug.  CD Pritchard got me to try using some
foam control in my last starter and I must say that 1 drop per quart per
step made a huge  difference.  I used to have problems with especially
active yeast blowing out of the jug but now I get 1/2"-3/4" of foam max,
even on the last step (I'm almost tempted to try adding an extra quart
of starter in the wine jug).  I've not yet made a lager using this
procedure but I I use the 6L flask it should be no problem.  I also have
a 3 gallon carboy that would be great for making REALLY large starters,
but I've not been able to adequately keep a stir bar coupled thru the
thick bottom of the carboy.

John Schnupp, N3CNL
Dirty Laundry Brewery
Colchester, VT
95 XLH 1200



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 12:38:21 -0700
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Conversion of Sankey to Corny...

From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: convert sankey to corny?

>There is a way of making the oval corny opening in a sankey keg. I'm not
>sure where I saw it but all you have to do is purchase an extra corny lid
>and o-ring and voila! You have the traditional corny opening and an easier
>way of cleaning out the keg (by getting your whole arm down in there!). Has
>anyone out there seen this type of setup? How difficult is it to cut the
>necessary hole? Does it work?

	I have heard of this, and would like to see it again.  But my
question is a little different.  Once you replace the lid...  Is there a way
to add the fittings as well, so I could use my 15 gallon Sankeys as a full
fledged Corney?  sure it would be interesting to make sure the dip tube is
set right, But i would be willing to lose a few inches of beer, to be able
to Ferment in one, use CO2 to transfer to another converted sanky/corny keg,
and dispense.
	
	How does one add fittings to a container (hopefully) without
welding.  is there a way?  

badger



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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:03:24 -1000
From: Stuart Ing <stuarti at lava.net>
Subject: smaller co2 tank for kegging

How much co2 is required to carbonate and dispense a 5 gal. batch of
beer.  I'm looking for a more portable way to carry around my co2
besides my 10# tank.  I happen to have smaller co2 tanks 7, 12, and 20
oz. size (they're for paintball).  Would any of these tanks be big
enough to do the job?
- -- 
Stu
stuarti at lava.net
penfold314 at hotmail.com
ICQ# 37779652
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"This hat's not big enough for both of us" :Guinan
- ------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 21:04:28 -0500
From: Rick Lassabe <bayrat at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re sankey to corny

Ian Smith asked about converting kegs....
 I converted a sankey keg to a corny keg by taking a corny keg, ( one
without the rubber around the top) and cutting the top off the corny
about 1 1/2 inches down from the top. I then placed this on top of a
sankey and traced around the edge, I moved in 1/16 inch a cut out the
top of the sankey, after some tedious grinding, sanding and a few cuss
words I got what I prefer to call a coal oil joint, ( any old carpenters
out there??) I took the kegs to a sheet metal shop and had the two
welded. What I ended up with was a great looking sankey keg with ball
lock fittings and only a small (1/8 inch) weld around the edge where the
corny fit next to the sankey.
  I have used this keg for a fermented by simply attaching a bubblier
(sp)  type air lock to the "in" side of the keg. Works great and it cost
me about $80.00. I don't mean to make this sound easy; this requires a
great deal of work to get the proper fit. If you are adapt with metal
cutting tools then you can do it also.
  You might want to look at the Sabco web page at their fermenters.
(Standard disclaimer here)
Rick Lassabe
Bayrat's Brewery


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Date: Fri, 15 Oct 1999 22:06:35 -0400
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: Re: stepping-up starters

Bare minimum? Wal- OK- I just throw into my primary fermenter about
2 or 3 packs of DRY yeast and pour the wort onto it from a height of
4 feet or so. Woiks good for me. Generally have bubbles after
a couple of hours. So much for science! Go figger: Beer Happens!


>I don't see any reason for there to be a limit on the dilution of yeast
>cells you can perform in stepping up the yeast.

>My advice to you is to decrease the number of steps to a bare
>minimum. Ideally, this would mean going right from your 50 ml
>smack pack to whatever starter volume you are shooting for.

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC 
email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/
(252)830-1833
- -------------
Suppose you were an idiot ... 
And suppose you were a member of Congress...

But I repeat myself.
- -- Mark Twain


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---