---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Jack And I Retired At Forty ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  I ain't Brenda, my brother was trying to be funny ("Dan Kiplinger")
  Jack ("Dan Kiplinger")
  RE: The Flavor ("Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A")
  AHA, BATF and Eisbock (Dan Cole)
  plambics??? (Rod Prather)
  Idophor troubles (Ballsacius)
  Dry Hops & Heat (John Varady)
  10 gallon Cornies ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  RIMS question ("J. Doug Brown")
  Zymurgy Criticisms ("Foster Jason")
  Lager Aroma ("Houseman, David L")
  Pellet Hops / mash thickness (Nathan Kanous)
  The Microwave? (Nathan Kanous)
  Aventinus clone ("Mercer, David")
  homebrew happy hour (Jeff Hall)
  re: Old Ale Fetsival ("Nigel Porter")
  first wort hopping (alone) (C Epp)
  beer vs. wine making ("Curt Speaker")
  Muntons Wheat Malt (Liz Blades)
  plambic,sake, sanitation (Jim Liddil)
  nosey hops, acidic sparge, limits to growth (Dave Burley)
  Primary Seal, Vanilla Porter ("Jeffry D Luck")
  Translation URL - sorry! ("Sean Richens")
  TRUB XI Competition Results ("Gary Clayton")
  first pilsner ("scott")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 19:18:39 +1100
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Jack And I Retired At Forty

Well this isn't quite true. I must have failed the course also. It was my
plan to produce vast amounts of homebrew and make a fortune. I have produced
vast amounts of homebrew but am still working at well over forty. What is
your secret Jack?

I wonder if there is a market for this really flash cheese mill I am working
on. That is, if Jack doesn't beat me to it!

Cheers
Phil


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:51:18 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: I ain't Brenda, my brother was trying to be funny

 I apologize for the "Brenda(get used to the new name)" on my address.  My
 brother seemed to think it was hilarious to come to town and change my name
in my prefrences.

 I am still interested in any info in used 10 gal. corneys.

 Also, (to all of you metallurgists out there) what is the best way to make
those ugly corney exteriors look new?

 Dan Kiplinger (not Brenda)



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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 03:54:42 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Jack

 I am relatively new to the post but I am confused.  Is Jack Schmidling that
much of a defensive prick or am I missing something.  I know that "flaming"
is both common and acceptable but golly!  The few posts from him sound like
he is trying to make up for something that he doesn't have.  What's up with
the bragging about being retired?  He obviously is not retired if has his
name on what the neighbor kids are producing.  Who's in charge of
quality??!!

 Hey, the Easymasher is a cool invention to get people into all-grain with a
minimal investment.  I am all for that and I respect it also.  But "the
better mouse trap" is (I think) going a bit too far.  (ask Mike Zindler)

Dan Kiplinger





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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 11:14:16 +0100 
From: "Campbell, Paul R SSI-TSEA-A" <Paul.R.Campbell at is.shell.com>
Subject: RE: The Flavor 

>But that's not what I said.  Or at least it's not what I meant to say!

Agreed ;->

>What I meant to say was that perhaps the diacetyl in combination with
>the caramel-like flavors from the malt give the caramel flavor he's
>looking for.  I would never suggest that diacetyl by itself smells
>like caramel.  But aromas combine synergistically sometimes, and this
>might be one of those times.

I'm with you on this, honest. Crystal malt (at least the stuff I can 
get hold of) is more nutty than caramel to my taste buds. Now, 
diacetyl may "influence" my perception of this nuttiness (sp?) towards
a more caramel flavour (the buttery taste rounding off the nutty).

>For example, at least to my nose, the combination of East Kent
>Goldings hops with high diacetyl ends up smelling like rancid butter.
>Separately, they're nice (or at least tolerable in the case of the
>diacetyl) but together.... YUK!

Does that mean you don't like Fuller's ESB? Or do I infer you don't
think that diacetyl is a huge factor in this beer (at least not
enough for the YUK effect!) On second thoughts, perhaps we 
shouldn't go there........ :^)

Hoppy brewing,
Paul.

Aberdeen


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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 05:40:32 -0500
From: Dan Cole <dcole at roanoke.infi.net>
Subject: AHA, BATF and Eisbock

Those of you who have been around for a while remember the "legality of
Eisbock production thread" of 1996 and 1997. Well, in digging through the
archives one of the last messages on that thread was one by Oliver
Weatherbee on Aug 15, 1997 indicating that he had contacted Jim Parker of
the AHA re: this thread and Jim had agreed that this is something that the
AHA should be involved in (confirming the legality of Eisbock production
with the BATF).

I've searched the archives for the AHA's posting, and haven't found
anything. Did the AHA contact the BATF and get us an official ruling and I
just missed it?

Dan Cole


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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 06:16:47 -0500
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: plambics???

Can anyone give a good example of a Plambic in a commercial bottle.  I
have never tasted one and I would like to get a feel (or a taste) for
this mysterious Belgian brew.


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 06:57:36 EST
From: Ballsacius at aol.com
Subject: Idophor troubles

I have a concern. I recently transferred idophor(iodine) out of a carboy and 
transferred beer from the primary carboy into this carboy. I did not rinse 
the carboy containing the idophor, or the siphon hoses before i transferred. 
I usually use bleach and rinse evrything, but i was under the impression that 
idophor was more effective and did not need to be rinsed. Now I am 
concerened, should I have rinsed? Is my first all-grain of the new brewing 
season down the tubes? Will I have to dump this batch? Any help would be 
appreciated . Thank You!

Bob Fesmire
Madman Brewery
Pottstown, PA


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:41:36 -0500 (EST)
From: John Varady <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: Dry Hops & Heat

Alan writes:
> Jeff, it sounds like you want more hop FLAVOR not bitterness. If so, you
> should MINIMIZE the time you steep the hops to make a hop tea. Unlike the
> alpha acids, many of the flavor compounds are volatile (will be driven off
> and lost with increased time) and heat-labile (destroyed be heating). If I
> were you, I'd take my cue from the best advice of tea afficionados - steep
> the tea in water that is less than boiling, and not too long.

George Fix recommends steaming dry hops for 10-15 mins before introducing
them to the beer. He suggests this not to sanitize the hops but says that it
produces a "rounder" and more preferable hop character. This information can
be found in his book "An Analysis of Brewing Techniques".

John
John Varady                     The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Boneyard Brewing                Custom Neon Beer Signs For Home Brewers
Glenside, PA                            Get More Information At:
rust1d at usa.net                  http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady 


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 07:14:17 -0700
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <matthew-saunders at uswest.net>
Subject: 10 gallon Cornies

Brenda asks where she can find 10 gallon cornies.  I used to work at a
homebrew shop in VA that mail orders used 10 gal cornies.  They have a web
presence at www.vintagecellar.com and you can email them at
sales at vintagecellar.com.

Hope this helps,
Matthew in CO.



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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 08:49:45 -0500
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: RIMS question

Hello All,
  I saw the question posted a day or two back about starting a session
out with cold water and then using the RIMS to heat the water to mashing
temperatures.  If a second thermocouple is downstream of the heating
element then excess wort temperatures could be avoided and also
scorching could be reduced.  If this type of scheme using two
thermocouples were used, one upstream and one downstream in a RIMS with
a custom pic controller, can anybody provide input as to problems, or
ideas to improve this idea.  What I had in mind in with the custom
temperature controller is this:
	while ((upstream_temp < desired_temp) &&
	        ((downstream_temp - upstream_temp) < delta_max)) &&
		(downstream_temp < (desired_temp + max_overshoot))) {
	  heat_it()
	}
  Sorry for the syntax, however it is how I think.  In this scenario
delta_max could be adjusted to prevent schorching and max_overshoot
could be adjusted to prevent excess temperatures entering the wort and
causing unwanted reactions.

  From start (cold water ie 60F) to mash temp, would a time of 20
minutes to achieve the mash temp cause any adverse affects to the wort? 
When heating the wort in a RIMS system how much would one recommend the
heated outflow from the heat chamber be above the desired mashing
temperature?  Is delta 5F enough is delta 10F too much?  My intuition is
that the heated outflow has to be a few degrees warmer than the desired
temperature to be able to quickly heat up the grain bed and wort.  Any
advice would be greatly appreciated.  If this system works it would be a
2 keg system, 1 for the RIMS, 1 for the brewpot.

  Thanks for the advice and suggestions
    Doug Brown
- -- 
       --------------------------------------------------------
      /       J. Doug Brown             Sr. Software Engineer  \
     <     jbrown at labyrinth.net            jbrown at ewa.com       >
      \ http://www.labs.net/jbrown       http://www.ewa.com    /


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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:52:35 PST
From: "Foster Jason" <jasfoster at hotmail.com>
Subject: Zymurgy Criticisms

I feel I need to respond to Donald Lake's post in HBD #3157 criticizing the 
latest issue of Zymurgy. I have not yet received my copy (as a Canadian, I 
tend to be delayed a few days waiting for the American publication to work 
its way northward), but I know Donald's criticisms are common to every 
issue.

As near as I can tell, his main criticism is as follows:

snip
>>there were absolutely no articles that anyone would classify as even 
>>slightly advanced or technical in regard to homebrewing. <<

Now, this is clearly a factually accurate statement. However, it misses the 
point. Zymurgy is not intended as an "advanced or technical" magazine. It 
does not bill itself to be one and does not promise to satisfy the advanced 
homebrewers needs.

To be clear, Zymurgy is aimed at the novice and intermediate brewer. It is 
tailoring its articles to a broader cross-section of homebrewers.

If you don't like the articles, it probably has more to do with where you 
are at as a brewer than with the magazine. I wish those who criticize would 
recognize this important difference. Put another way, Donald and others, you 
have outgrown Zymurgy. Which is okay. Just don't trash the magazine for your 
growth.

I, too, lament its shrunken size of late, but again that is not their fault. 
It is the hard, cold realities of economics. Would you rather they do three 
more big issues and then go bankrupt?

As a final note, I personally have been enjoying the addition of articles 
highlighting "classic" commercial beers and on other "non-brewing" aspects 
of beer. I am a homebrewer, but I am also a fan of beer. I want to read 
about the different aspects of beer, not just the technical debates. 
However, that is 100% personal opinion and I in no way intend it as a 
judgement or criticism of anyone else.

I think we all need to relax and recognize that there is room for all of us 
- -- and all levels -- in the hobby.

Yours in good beer,

Jason Foster
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada

______________________________________________________


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 10:58:00 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Lager Aroma

Dave Burley says "I disagree with many BJCP judges and
others who say a good lager should not
have a hop aroma.  I agree with Dr. Pivo,
Roger Ayotte and other rebels who say
 they should."  

Which lager would that be?  Given the broad range of lager styles, it's
natural that some, Pilsners, Bohemian and German, would have a hop aroma.
Other lagers should not, and don't.  Of course you could dry hop a bock with
Cascades and have an interesting new style, er beer since a style is a
collection of characteristics that have developed over time or been adopted
and accepted as defining a particular type of beer, not a one off.  



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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 09:59:08 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: Pellet Hops / mash thickness

Paul,
You mentioned that you use pelletized English hops.  I was under the 
impression that in Europe they make plugs to "preserve" hops and in the US 
we make pellets.  That being said, English hops would have to travel from 
Europe to the US to be pelletized.  Lots of time in transit could lead to 
oxidation problems with the finished pellets.  Your experience suggests 
otherwise.  I don't recall where I got the idea that "plugs are European 
and pellets are American" and I'd readily accept someone with more 
knowledge telling me I'm nuts....that way, I'd start using more pelletized 
European hops.  However, as you suggest, regardless of how / when they got 
pelletized, if they work, who cares?

Regarding PU and the mash thickness / alpha amylase stability, yada, yada, 
yada, don't forget that PU undergoes an extensive decoction mash which 
could provide for the "rich dextrinous wort" rather than a "thin mash at 
146 deg F."  I tend to believe that it's the decoction that leads to the 
final result, not the "stability of alpha amylase at 146 degF."  Just my 
opinion.



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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 10:10:31 -0600
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: The Microwave?

Dave Burley inspired me to ask this one.  Has anybody ever used the 
microwave to conduct a cereal mash?  I could easily handle a 15 minute 
saccharification rest and then just microwave the rest for the previously 
mentioned 45 minutes (corn grits).  This should avoid any problems with 
scorching, shouldn't it?  I guess it may just be time to give it a 
shot.   I wouldn't expect quite the same flavor, as some level of 
melanoidin development would occur in the "pot on the stove" but stirring 
for 45 minutes doesn't sound like fun, either.  Any thoughs?


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 08:44:48 -0800 
From: "Mercer, David" <dmercer at path.org>
Subject: Aventinus clone

Dan asked about making an Aventinus-type weizenbock.

First, get Eric Warner's book, if you can find it. 

I've brewed several batches of this beer, and each time I pare back the
complexity of the recipe, with little or no paring back of the complexity of
flavor. The basic recipe is simple: Use ~60% German wheat (I use Weyermann
wheat malt, which looks almost red) and the rest dark Munich malt, in
quantities sufficient to produce a 1.075 o.g. wort. To be authentic, you
need to do a double decoction. But I have found that cheating, using a step
infusion and adding a few ounces of chocolate malt (about 1.5% of the total
grain bill) saves time and still produces an excellent beer. Keep mashout
and sparge temperatures high to avoid a stuck runoff. Hop to about 17 IBU's
with a little hop flavor (I use Mt. Hood, because I have a bunch in the
freezer, but I think Liberty is more authentic. Add about 1/4 of the hops in
the final 20 minutes of the boil.) Boil for 90 minutes. Pitch a lot of
Weihenstephan yeast and aerate well. Watch the fermentation temperature. I
think I remember Warner writing that Aventinus is fermented around 60F, but
I can't get Weihenstephan yeast to work at that temperature (they must pitch
a LOT of yeast) so I try to keep it around 68F. High kreuzen is explosive
(make sure you have a lot of headspace in your fermenter or use a blow-off
tube with a draining vessel that can hold a lot of spooge) and produces a
lot of heat. My fermenters are usually about 5F above ambient temperatures.
If things get too hot, it doesn't ruin the beer. It just means a bit more
banana and fusels. Both abate with time. Hope this works.



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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 09:28:58 -0800
From: Jeff Hall <hallj at targen.com>
Subject: homebrew happy hour

Greetings and Salutations,
My company is about to sponsor our second annual homebrew happyhour.
Employees are invited to submit some homebrew for an afternoon of tasting
and judging.  Prizes are awarded to winners and losers, and everyone gets to
sample some homebrew.  It's a lot of fun, and it gives the homebrewers here
a chance to show off, gets the occasional or former brewers brewing again,
and gets some first time brewers started.  Last years entries ranged from
some decent kit beers to one entry made from melted snow to one carbonated
using dry ice (yuck!).  It's a great way to get people into homebrewing, and if
they don't stick with it, it's a great way to get cheap slightly used
equipment..
Any Social Activities Committee members out there take note!
On a different note, I recently made a 3 gallon batch of porter.  I did a
partial
mash using almost 2# 2 Row and some additional grains at 150 (plus or minus,
I have an electric stove) degrees for 90 minutes.  For no reason in particular,
I put my bittering hops into the minimash at about halfway through.  I finished
the minimash, added extract etc. as usual.  I just racked to a secondary, and
the beer looked cloudier than the last time I did this recipe minus the early
hops.  I used Irish moss to clarify, and I'm not concerned about it yet.  Any
opinions about hopping during a partial mash?  I think I was trying to imitate
first wort hopping on the stove top.

Jeff Hall, Seattle



"Good. Tell him he's Wayne Gretzky."

- -- Ted Green, Edmonton Oilers coach, when told that center Shaun Van
Allen had suffered a concussion and didn't know who he was



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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:19:38 -0000
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: re: Old Ale Fetsival

Gordon Strong wrote:

>Does anyone know when the Old Ale Festival will be held this 
>year?  I'm not talking about the Real Ale Festival in Chicago; I'm 
>interested in the one
>held at the White Horse in London usually around Thanksgiving.

Not sure when the festival is (I seem to remember it was late 
November/early December time last year). The White Horse has 
been closed for refurbishment recently, but AFAIK it will be going 
ahead, as I helped deliver a firkin from a US Brewery from Great 
British Beer Festival to the loving care of the White Horse cellar 
back in August.

I'll post details to list when I know a firm date.

Nigel Porter


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Date: Tue, 02 Nov 1999 12:53:01 -0600
From: C Epp <chuckepp at ukans.edu>
Subject: first wort hopping (alone)

Hi, all.  Has anybody tried using first wort hopping alone in a pale ale
- -- no additional bittering hops, no finishing hops, just the whole hop
load (of noble hops) as first wort hops?  I would expect a fair deal of
bitterness, but also a clean, full hop character. Anybody have
experience with this? Private responses are fine. Thanks, and happy


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 14:15:00 +0500
From: "Curt Speaker" <SPEAKER at SAFETY-1.SAFETY.PSU.EDU>
Subject: beer vs. wine making

Just had to add my $0.02 on this:

I have been having this discussion with several folks here in central 
PA regarding the increased interest in home winemaking versus 
homebrewing.  I honestly think that winemaking ingredients have 
gotten significantly better in the past few years.  The end result of 
this is that you can make pretty damn good wine at home now.  It 
is no longer a couple cans of Welsh's grape juice, half-a-cake of 
Fleishmann's bread yeast and a couple pounds of sugar (just like 
homebrewing is no longer a can of Blue Ribbon syrup, a couple #s 
of sugar and the same Fleishmann's yeast).  

Wine kits contain better grape juice concentrate, better water 
treatment chemicals, better fining agents and [much] better yeast.  
With all of those items and a better knowledge of sanitation, the 
quality of your finished product should certainly improve.

The argument to this (as a winemaking & homebrewing friend of 
mine pointed out) is that a novice brewer, with a bit of time and 
patience, can make beer that is just about as good as a 
commercial microbrew.  A novice winemaker, on the other hand, 
cannot make wine as good as a small winery.  Homemade wine is 
better, but still pales in comparison to commercial stuff.

All of this, coupled with what is likely a higher mark-up on 
winemaking kits (yuppies have more $$ and will likely pay more for 
wine kits), and it is only natural that homebrew stores are catering 
more to the home winemakers.  It would be interesting to hear from 
some homebrew store proprietors to see if this is true...anyone???

As I said, these are my opinions only.  MYYV

later 

Curt

Curt Speaker                         
Biosafety Officer 
Penn State University                
Environmental Health and Safety    
speaker at ehs.psu.edu                   
http://www.ehs.psu.edu
^...^
(O_O)
=(Y)=


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:28:17 GMT
From: blades at airtime.co.uk (Liz Blades)
Subject: Muntons Wheat Malt

In HBD#3157
Paul Haaf wrote

"Lately I've been purchasing Munton's Wheat LME in the 3 gal (33 lb)
'buckets'.  The last batch that I bought was NOT wheat malt.  I made two
batches from it, both using 1/2 gal (5 1/2 lbs).  It was either light or
amber LME.  When I complained about this to the homebrew store, they said
that they are aware of the problem, but Munton's refuses to acknowledge
the error."

I have passed the message on to Muntons (email andy at muntons.com),and asked 
Paul to provide them with a batch #,oh and the name of the store would not 
be a bad idea.

HTH

Liz


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Date:  2 Nov 99 13:41:35 MST
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at netscape.net>
Subject: plambic,sake, sanitation

> From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
> Subject: [p]Lambics - Autolysis & Retaining Microbes
> 

> I recently brewed up my first ever lambic/plambic.  And, have the
> following
> questions...
> 

> 1) I've read that autolysis in a young, fermenting lambic is OK ->
> preferable.
> The idea being that the autolyzing yeast provide nutrients for all
> the other
> microfauna.  Has that worked for others?  Should I rack off the
> yeast, or
> let nature run its course?
> 


Do what ever you want.  but in the "traditional" process the beer stays 
in the
same cask for a long time.  


> 2) Matt Arnold wrote about an approach for pitching a new batch of
> lambic
> into a used, uncleaned carboy from which he had just bottled.  Any
> comments
> on that approach?  Have you used it successfully?
> 


You can do this also.  At the same time you end up with a bunch of excess

stuff in the carboys.  


In the past I have said it and I'll reiterate that I brew all my beers in
 the
same equipment.  I'll again stress the importance of keeping things clean
 and
sanitary.  You CANNOT sanitize dirty equipment.  Be sure to scrub 
everything
well.  If you keep things clean you won't run itno problems.  I've had to

double my efforts since moving to CT, where it seems that any organic 
matter
turns to mold within hours if left at room temp. I recommend the 
sanitation
article at www.liddil.com for a review.

One usually does not keg plambics.  But if you do then just clean it when
 you
are done. This requires usnscrewing all  the fittings and poppets. A 
tooth
brush wirks well for this.  



> From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
> Subject: Sanitizing my stir bar
> 

> Can I sanitize my stir bar properly but just cleaning it and leaving
> it in 

> a small jar of vodka?  I suspect it would be in the vodka a couple
> weeks at 

> a time, if not more.  Anybody got any ideas how virulent pediococcus
> and 

> such are when exposed to 50% ethanol solutions?  Just trying to make
> it simple.
> nathan in madison, wi
> 


How can you be in pharmacy and not know the answer?  Oh that right you 
only
have to count to 100 by fives and type the label straight.  (major joke, 
I
used to work for a pharmacist/pharmacologist). At any rate 70% ethanol is
 the
most effective conc. for sanitizng with EtOH.  I always scrub my stir 
bars
with a toothbrush and automatic dishwasher detergent. Then after you 
rinse it
thoroughly you can store it in 70% EtOH.  This should keep the pedio at 
bay.


> From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
> Subject: pLambic "disinfecting"
> 

> At the risk of being proven wrong, I'll speak.  Matt recommended that
> we 

> can use a strong bleach solution in a nice long soak to avoid cross 

> contamination from pLambic into our other beers.  I'll go out on a
> limb and 

> say he's half right.  The long soak part.  I've recently re-opened
> Fix's 

> Analysis of Brewing Techniques and I believe he mentioned that bleach
> is 

> not very good for pediococcus.  However, you could use your iodophor
> or a 

> nice quaternary ammonium compound or whatever.  Just don't expect the
> 

> bleach to do the trick.  Always open minded, open mouthed, and
> willing to 

> be proven wrong...
> 


And again I'll say, you must be sure the surface is CLEAN before 
sanitizing.
This may mean using a brush but you have to get rid of all the organic
material before you sanitize and expect it to be effective.

> 

> I went nuts trying to find stuff on the web in Spanish (Yahoo
> Espan~ol,
> etc.) where I could find words not in my dictionary, like carboy,
> racking,
> etc.
You might try http://babelfish.altavista.com/


So does anyone know a good website on sake' other than what has been 
mnetioned
so far?

Jim Liddil
reply to jliddil at vms.arizona.edu
www.liddil.com

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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 16:01:29 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: nosey hops, acidic sparge, limits to growth

Brewsters:

Nathan Kanous asked me politely
and privately what I meant by
 "adding hops at the nose":

I had said in the HBD #3159 :

"Rather than a hop tea added to the
secondary, I routinely add hops at the
nose for lagers."

I said to him and to all curious HBDers:

"Good Question!  A brain fart, I guess
or else an editorial error on my part.

Should read "I routinely add some
aroma hops at the end of the boil to
improve the hop nose for lagers."
- ---------------------------------------------------------
Paul Kensler's pH dropped into the 4's
at the end of his sparge and he asks for 

speculations on why.

I can only think of two explanations

pH meter drift due to battery or temperature
but since he used pH strips, batteries do not
explain it. Some strips are only useful at
room temperature so maybe you should
cool the sample first. I use a metal jigger
or spoon to cool all my samples first.

If these strips are those horrible brown strips
that were ubiquitous at brew shops for years,
throw them out!  Get some real pH strips,
from a chemical supply house, which are
multicolored strips and read in 0.2 or 0.1
pH units. Small pH meters are pretty
inexpensive and I don't know, but I'll
bet not much more than these strips.

I would not, as you suggest, add carbonate to 

adjust the sparge pH as this will likely dissolve
tannins from the husks and other phenols and
produce a rough tasting beer.  Adding it to
your wort could produce similar results in terms of 

taste. I'd do nothing, except try to understand it
for future batches.
- ---------------------------------------------------------
I think Alan Meeeker misunderstood Kyle's 

question about how one limits the number
of growth cycles of yeast.  


The answer is that yeast reach a certain 

concentration and level off in all cases at
about the same value.  By starting with a
certain size starter you can limit the number
of growth cycles the yeast have to go through
to reach this number.  Larger starter, fewer
growth cycles.

Ales typically have a smaller starter, since the
by-products of the growth are the various
sensory agents like esters, aldehydes and
ketones which we expect in British Ales.
Lagers, on the other hand are expected
to be cleaner, so we start with a larger starter
to limit the number of growth cycles.

This larger starter is also good, since we
typically ferment the lagers cooler for the
same reason of cleaness in taste. This
larger starter allows a faster fermentation.

As Alan points out, poor quality starter
in which the yeast do not have a good supply
of sterols to begin with or lacking oxygen
will mean a continual sharing of the sterols
by mother and daughter to build new cell
walls and membranes. This can eventually
lead to poor yeast growth and even weird
biochemical pathways which can lead to
unwanted tastes.

Likewise, too small a starter of even healthy
yeast can lead to this lower level of sterols
in the yeast in the anerobic fermentation
of your beer with the same outcome of
undesired tastes and perhaps a poor
or incomplete fermentation.

Solution? healthy yeast by using a starter
which has been well oxygenated and
grown in a wort with sufficient FAN by using 

a pure malt starter. Discard the starter beer
and pitch enough yeast to meet the
guidelines Kyle noted.

As an aside, racking a new brew directly
onto the primary yeast cake of a prior brew
has been recommended from time to time
and is perhaps better than starting with a
small starter.

I typically recover the yeast
I get from the secondary. I rack just as,
the primary fermentation finishes its
rip-roaring. This produces a clean yeast,
which I can preserve under distilled water
after washing or use in the next brew. In the
case of lagers, this seems to be about the
right amount. Less can be used for ales.
I always re-start any yeast for at least a
few hours before I use it.

For sure, racking an ale wort onto a
complete yeast cake from a previous
brew is the wrong way to go since you
want some yeast growth for ales.

With ale yeasts it is important that the
racking to the secondary take place while
the  fermentation is still active to avoid
segregation of powdery yeast from
flocculent yeast. This is especially true
with some of the London yeasts, which I
understand may consist of both types of
yeast.
- --------------------------------------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley

 

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Date: 02 Nov 1999 14:56:47 -0700
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Primary Seal, Vanilla Porter

Two questions for the collective:

I have a 7 gallon primary, one of those white plastic 
food storage bins.  But in my last batch the fermentation
lock never bubbled -- I think the seal between the 
bucket and the lid is bad.  Is there a way to fix this, other
than buying a new bucket?

I'm also looking to add some vanilla flavor to a porter
I'm making.  I've heard that extract will impart a bad 
flavor, and that I should use whole beans.  True?  And
how much vanilla bean (or extract) should I add for a 
5 gallon batch of porter.  I'm looking for a discernable
hint of vanilla but nothing overpowering.

Thanks all.

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 18:08:11 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Translation URL - sorry!

Re. the lexicon web site I posted in hbd 3159, I goofed by assuming there
was a "www".

Thanks to Randy for pointing it out.  It's:

http://eurodic.echo.lu

i.e. no www.

Sean


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 23:51:32 -0500
From: "Gary Clayton" <garyclayton at mindspring.com>
Subject: TRUB XI Competition Results

Results of the TRUB XI Homebrew Competition, 10/30/99 in Raleigh NC, can be
found at http://trub11.home.mindspring.com.
Congratulations to Best Of Show winner Jay Adams.


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Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1999 20:59:46 -0800
From: "scott" <Cuckold at cornerpub.com>
Subject: first pilsner

Been brewing 10 gal. Hefe's with very good luck.  Haven't done the water
analysis yet, as we just bought our house and insufficient funds.  Did
install a charcoal filter, however.

My first Pilsner.  With the old adage, KISS, I set out on my project.  20
lbs of Vienna malt, 31/2 oz of domestic Saaz hops (boil/aroma) and irish
moss.

didn't think I needed a rice hull bed like with wheat.  WRONG!  My mash
stuck bigtime as soon as I hit 140 deg.  Live and learn.

I ended up doing two decoctions.  This was on the fly compromising to get my
mash temperature up.  Have never done one before, but was surprisingingly
easy.
Hope it doesn't make too dark of a beer.

Munich lager yeast (all the brew store had).  I had never done lager yeasts,
and it was so exciting to watch it work, and work well, at 45-50 deg. temps.
The smell is a little more wild than the clover/banana smells I am used to.

Should I worry about diacetyl rest?  I plan on letting this sit for 2-3
months at 35 deg. temps.
Can I bottle with corn sugar?  Will there be enough suspended yeast cells,
or should I save some secondary trub for this?

Thanks so much.
Scott
 www.geocities.com/Paris/Salon/3768/Brewery.html


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