---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  De-ledding brass ("John Stegenga")
  Aquarium heaters for lagering ("Dan Kiplinger")
  Question: Munich Lager ("Darrell Leavitt")
  malting barley (Marc Sedam)
  iodophor question (Demonick)
  Carboy blow-off!! (Ian Smith)
  RE: Iodophor (Robert Arguello)
  Wine making vs beer ("Jack Schmidling")
  Limits to Growth, quality winemaking (Dave Burley)
  Zymurgy Bashing (Jim Cave)
  RIMS design thanks and question ("J. Doug Brown")
  Weizenbock Recipe (KMacneal)
  pressure cooking cereal mashes (Jeff Renner)
  New Market For Homebrew Equipment ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  aha bash-page down now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Jim Liddil)
  HEaRMS (The Holders)
  gelatin finings ("Conan Barnes")


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 00:40:09 -0500
From: "John Stegenga" <bigjohns at mindspring.com>
Subject: De-ledding brass

Peter posted the following:

>Date: Wed, 3 Nov 1999 07:52:50 -0500
>From: "Ratkiewich, Peter" <PRATKIEWICH at ci.westport.ct.us>
>Subject: brownish color on deleaded brass
>
>I was deleading a couple of brass fittings the other day.  Using a solution
>of 1 part Hydrogen Peroxide to two parts white vinegar, as has been
>previously suggested in this forum, I soaked the parts for 24 hours.  Upon
>removing them from solution, portions of the brass parts had a brownish
>coloration to them.  The rest of the surfaces appeared to be normal with a
>dull tinge to the brass color.  Can any of the resident metallurgists out
>there tell me if this is normal, and what the brownish color is? Should I
>worry about removing it? The fittings are off-the-shelf brass compression
>fittings to be used in my heat exchanger, so there will be contact with


You soaked them for 24hours?  I thought you were supposed to soak them for
something like an hour, until the solution was dark blue and the brass was
buttery looking.  At least that's how I did mine.

John Stegenga
(aka Bigjohn)
Atlanta, Ga.





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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 03:20:05 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Aquarium heaters for lagering

Does anyone know if a submersible aquarium heater will work to warm lagers
to the appropriate temperature during fermentation?  I have mulled over this
thought for years and never followed up on it or tried it.  I decided
tonight that I was finally going to give it a go unless I was talked out of
it.

My plan is to get a submersible heater with the wattage recommended for 2
times the volume that I intend on fermenting (I will be fermenting 20 gal).
If I remember correctly from my days as an aquarium sales dude in
highschool, it was 25 to 50 watts per 5 gallons.  This would mean that I
would be looking to get a heater with a wattage between 200 and 400.  400
watts seems a bit extreme and I don' t know if that size of a heater would
be in my $ range.  With some sort of insulation on my stainless fermenter,
this seems to be such a simple solution that I start to get worried.

It seems to me that the amount of electricity that I will use will be no
more than if I went through the trouble and bucks to build and insulated box
to fit over my fermenter and heat the inside of that with a heating pad or
such.

The things that immediately worry me are: off flavors due to the beer
directly exposed to the element, not having enough circulation to have the
heat disperse well enough thus having different temps throughout the
fermenter, and the possibility of other flavor concerns due to the plastic
used in these heater housings.

Well, I guess that I will wait to hear from the collective.

PS.
>>This is how wars between small countries start!<<
I didn't mean to start a war.  In fact, I don't want to see one.  I
just was appalled, that's all.  I usually roll over and let things slide but
this time I wanted to say something.


Dan Kiplinger



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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:30:33 -0400
From: "Darrell Leavitt"<Darrell_Leavitt at sln.suny.edu>
Subject: Question: Munich Lager


I pitched a large Wyeast smack pack, last week, onto a munich lager...and
it took VERY long (6 days) to get going...and it is going very slowly.  I
know that I should have stepped it up prior to pitching, but was
impulsive,,,and didn't plan ahead well.  I am now going to slowly drop the
temp to the high end of its temp range, but I wonder: does it make sense at
this point to pitch more and hope to see it bubbling more, or might this
risk infection..and am I best to leave well enough alone and just let it
ferment out slowly?

 ..Darrell
<Terminally INtermediate Home-brewer>



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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 08:35:37 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: malting barley

Time to thank the University of Wisconsin for their diligent
labor in ensuring malt is all it can be.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/wisweek/view.msql?id=3276

It's a short story on the malting QC lab at UWisc.

 -Marc


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 07:37:02 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: iodophor question

Bob, don't worry about it.  Everything is okay.  Your beer will be
fine.

From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com> 
>Bob Fesmire related a no rinse use of iodophor yesterday and wanted to 
>know if he ruined a batch of beer.  Well, that depends.  It
>sounded like you transferred into the just sanitized carboy before
>letting it dry, that would be bad, especially if you made a lighter
>bodied beer.  Iodophore becomes inactivated when it dries, so you
>should always have your equipment sanitized and dried before you use
>it.  All you need do is turn your carboy upside down a couple days
>before you need to use it to let all the liquid drain out and have
>time to dry, bad stuff won't crawl up into it, bacteria rains down
>into things.  Ok, so did you ruin your beer?  Taste will tell, you
>may get away with it this time.  I have only ruined one batch of beer and
>it was because one of my brew buddies had used iodophor at double the
>recommended rate AND the beer was a very light bodied beer that can
>show every defect. The beer was visually perfect, clear, good
>head....but the taste was IODINE!  YUCK!!!

Iodophor is a no-rinse, no-dry, use-wet sanitizer.  I'm not saying
that you can get away with a pint of iodophor in your brew, but the
flavor threshold is so high that the amount of iodophor, whether
double-strength or not, clinging to the inside of the carboy or hoses
after letting drip a minute or two, will not be perceptible.

Though it was not mentioned, the Band-aid, perhaps iodinish aroma that
some brews exhibit are NOT due to iodophor, but due to the use of
chlorinated water or bleach.  Chlorinated water can produce
chlorophenols in your beer.  These are medicinal smelling/tasting
compounds that are often detectable at parts per BILLION
concentrations.

One of the most useful aspects of iodophor is the use-wet feature.
During brewing sessions I keep a 5 gallon bucket of iodphor around to
toss equipment and gear into so it's sanitized when I need it.  Shake
it off and use it, then throw it back into the solution.  I fill my
CFC and tubing with it.  I siphon it out and start collecting when the
iodophor has run out.  I know that I'm getting some mixing and that
some iodophor is making it into the carboy.  Never had a Band-aid
batch, but then I use very slowly charcoal filtered water.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:56:21 -0700 
From: Ian Smith <isrs at cmed.com>
Subject: Carboy blow-off!!

Maybe I'm greedy but I usually put 6 gallons of wort and yeast into a 6.7
gallon carboy. Last night the fermentation was so violent that I lost at
least a gallon in foamy blow-off! Has anybody out there solved this problem
(apart from using a bigger carboy or less wort to begin with)? Should I boil
the blow-off to sanitize it and return it to the carboy or am I asking for
an infection? Maybe I could pressure cook the stuff or am I being too much
of a tight wad and just throw it out?

Cheers!

Ian Smith
isrs at cmed.com <mailto:isrs at cmed.com> 


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 08:50:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Subject: RE: Iodophor

Some asked about Iodophor and the likelyhood that he ruined a batch of beer
by not air-drying his carboy.

Please see my article on Iodophor at
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac/iodophor.htm

********************************************************************     	
Robert Arguello <robertac at calweb.com>
Corny kegs - ProMash Brewing Software
http://www.calweb.com/~robertac
********************************************************************


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 09:31:15 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Wine making vs beer

As a personal note, I was making wine long before I made beer.  I quit making
wine because I could not produce anything better than what was then $5 jug wine.
Not bad but no reason to make it.  I then started making champaign because the
Then $5 champaign gluted the market and I gave it up.

I quit making beer because it was generally lousy.

I attribute my renaisance to the internet but probably owe more indirectly, to
that guy with the beard that everyone loves to hate.

I have started making wine again but primarily because I now have access to my
own grapes and other home grown fruits, which is the segue to what I feel, is
probably the fundamental difference between making beer and making wine.

Ponder this:  home brewers have easy access to raw materials as good or better
than that used by commercial brewers.  Furthermore, 30 gallons or more can be
made from a sack of grain that will keep for several years in a closet.

Unless one lives in a quality grape growing region or has his own vines, one can
at best buy "fresh" grapes trucked in from out of state and pay through the nose
for them.  More likely, the winemaker is stuck with what ever concentrate his
local wine shop can get and this is even more expensive, difficult to store and
of even more questionable quality.  No doubt the concentrates are better then
those of yesteryear but it is still not much different from making extract beer
and look what happened to that market.

It is unlikely that this sort of wine can ever be much better than jug wine and
will always be more expensive to make.  No offence to retailers but these are
facts of life and I do not think even the man with the beard could have
surmounted them if he had chosen to promote wine making instead of beer.

I am delighted to hear that retailers are finding a surge  in wine making
supplies. I just hope someone comes along to do something clever to make it
permanent other than just relying on the population growth to provide a
continuous supply of novices who quickly lose interest.

It is my humble opinion that retailers (and crafters) looking for an untapped
growth area consider cheesemaking.  It seems about where homebrewing was when I
gave that up.  It's ripe and ready for a man with a beard whereas as winemaking
is looking for Viagra.

You are invited to join the Cheese Makers Digest and get involved.  See header
of HBD for details.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME :    Cheese, Beer, Astronomy   http://user.mc.net/arf


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:02:05 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Limits to Growth, quality winemaking

Brewsters:

I don't believe Alan Meeker and I disagree
on the basic theory of yeast and what limits
their growth.  However, there are <practical>
limits to growth as noted quite often in
brewing texts. Such limits are imposed by
just those sorts of things Alan talks about. 


My answer to Kyle stands:  Expealadocious.

Errr, The idea behind being able to limit the
number of growth cycles depends on the
practical observation that in normal, "typical"
fermentations, the yeast population levels off.
It does this in response to the various limiting
factors commented on by Alan.

So to answer Kyle's question again:

By controlling the pitching rate, one can
control the number of expansions the
population has to go through to reach this
typical maximum population.

Doing this is important to get a consistent
flavor, since many of the co-geners are
produced during the growth phase of the yeast.  


These co-geners being more desirable in
ales than lagers suggests a lower pitching
rate for ales, as is practiced by the brewing
industry.
- ------------------------------------------------
On the subject of quality of home winemaking.
Mine is better than most wines you can buy
in my opinion and that of fellow wine drinkers
and judges..  I do start with grapes from
California, but like homebrewing, I do not
have an accountant staring up my
you-know-what. I am able to make excellent
quality wine at home with about the same
complexity of equipment as homebrewing.

Frankly, I find it difficult to drink most 

commercial wine that I can afford. Grape
wine based on California grapes, new bottles,
best corks money can buy, capsules and labels
still only costs me less than $5 per bottle. If
you recycle your bottles or jug the wine, it
is about $2-3 a bottle. This is for excellent
stuff.  A disadvantage is that we have to
search out restaurants that will let you bring
your own wine or pay a corkage fee, as my
wife will drink no other by choice.

I offer this as proof:

The three bottles of red wine ( Petit Sirah,
Pinot Noir and Cabernet Sauvignon)  I
entered in an American Wine Society
competiton in a ( once only)  weak moment
( at the request of my SO and friends) won
two <national> gold medals ( PS & PN) and one
bronze ( CS).

Medals are only awarded if deemed worthy
and only one is given per year for a given style.
Judges were trained amateurs and
professional winemakers who have to
go through a rigorous three year training
program and pass a final exam that is
incredibly difficult. They do know wines.

Point is not to brag, but to convince you
winemakers and wannabees that it can
and is done all the time at home with an
excellent result.

Interested in making country and fruit wines?
Then get a copy of a hoary book, reprinted
recently, called something like "Practical
Winemaking" by Duncan and Acton.
Should be available at your HB store
or it can be ordered. I cut my winemakling
teeth on this when it was first printed and 

it is still the best book for this purpose.

For those grape wine enthusiasts, a book 

called "Home Winemaking -Step by Step"
by Jon Iverson, Stonemark Publishing was
just published. It is such a good book,
I could have written it.  [8^) and wish I had.
Unlike many other hobby books, Jon and I
agree on nearly every topic.  


Sign up for the Home Vintner's Digest.
send the word "help" less the quotes to
request-hvd at hvd.org


Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 10:21:19 -0800
From: Jim Cave <cave at psc.org>
Subject: Zymurgy Bashing

	Dan Kiplinger indicates that Zymurgy has done wonderful things for 
homebrewing.  I totally agree. However, those of us who have been in the 
hobby for a 10 or so years, will note two things:

		1) Not only Zymurgy is not the magazine that BT was, it isn't the 
magazine that Zymurgy once was.  I thought the special magazine was very 
thin on overall content.  That's not a slight on the contributors, but 
rather the editorial staff.  Perhaps the resources aren't there to pull it 
off.

		2) It is rehashing the same material.  Perhaps it is the nature of the 
hobby, but how many articles can be written at the beginners level on 
mashing?  After a while they read the same.  In technical or scientific 
journals, normally you don't get published unless you have a new 
contribution to the field.

	My main reason for not renewing my membership was the deterioration of 
Zymurgy.

				Just my 2 cents worth.



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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 18:45:19 +0000
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at labyrinth.net>
Subject: RIMS design thanks and question

Hello All,
  I posted a question (almost a duplicate) about the affects of starting
with cold water in a RIMS system, heating it up, and following with a
step mash schedual.  I have received many responses, but none mention
their thoughts on how the beer would turn out.  Has this ever been done
before.  I have placed my design in electronic form so you can see
(hopefully) what I am thinking.  Please see
http://www.labs.net/jbrown/Doug/Brew/index.htm and choose the "Improved
RIMS Design" link.  I have descriptions under each drawing mentioning my
comments about the given stage.  I am really looking for all types of
responses here including but not limited to: the good, the bad, the ugly
(poor joke).  Please send any responses to jbrown at labyrinth.net.  I
really don't wish to build this system if it will produce bad beer.

  Thanks again
  Doug Brown

PS Thanks Rod Prather, Norman L. Brewer, Ian Smith, and Bob White.  For
those who suggested heat controller advice, I believe I added part of
every suggestion to my C++ style pic code, see "C++ code to operate the
RIMS pic controller".

- -- 
       --------------------------------------------------------
      /       J. Doug Brown             Sr. Software Engineer  \
     <     jbrown at labyrinth.net            jbrown at ewa.com       >
      \ http://www.labs.net/jbrown       http://www.ewa.com    /


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 13:58:49 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Weizenbock Recipe

Since I've had a couple of emails requesting a post of the recipe for those 
who don't subscribe to Zymurgy, here you go:

Weizen Christmas
German Style Weizenbock
1999 AHA Hombrew Competition Gold Medal Winner

Ingredients for 5 U.S. gallons

4.75 lb. dark Munich malt
7.5 lb. wheat malt
0.25 oz. Perle hop plug 9.5% AA (120 minutes)
0.125 oz. Perle hop plug 9.5% AA (60 minutes)
0.125 oz. Perle hop plug 9.5% AA (10 minutes)
Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan ale yeast
1.5 qt. gyle to prime

OG = 1.070
FG = 1.012
Boil time 120 minutes
Primary fermentation 1 week (plastic) 68 deg. F
Secondary fermentation 3 weeks (glass) 68 deg. F -- I had the 
primary/secondary times mixed up in Zymurgy

Double decoction mash

Judges Comments
"Roasted malt flavor, some clove, balance toward malt.  Could use more weizen 
phenolic characteristics.  Nice drinkable beer."

"A very nice beer. Quite close to Aventinus.  Warming. Good job."

Keith MacNeal


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 15:14:15 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: pressure cooking cereal mashes

Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
>Maybe we should also ask if anyone's used a pressure cooker too?

It was done 100 years ago commercially.  See Wahl and Henius' _American
Handy-Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxialary Trades_, pp. 718-719.
http://hubris.engin.umich.edu:8080/Wahl/ under the chapter "Brewing
Operations.  This chapter is a must read for those interested in turn of
the century traditional American beers.  There is an interesting technique
about raising the unfermentable extract by temperature manipulation.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 07:35:57 +1100
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: New Market For Homebrew Equipment

Jack reports :
>Of the billions and billions we have shipped, we
>have never had a single return.

>From this I can surmise two possibilities.

1.    Jack is shipping his mill to a much smaller number of people, but they
keep breaking down, and fearing his wrath they keep ordering more.

2.    Jack has found an enormous market about which no one is the wiser.
Perhaps the Chinese have taken up homebrewing, each and every one of them!
Do they like making cheese Jack? I could do with a market like this!

Cheers
Phil





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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 20:59:15 -0500
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: aha bash-page down now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

check out:
http://bd.dowjones.com/showreview.asp?ID=1309&gif=reviews

If this is not hyperbole.  OK those who posted about beginners and Zymurgy
are correct in that there has to be a magazine for intro to the hobby.  But
after one has brewed for 5-6 years where does one go?  Is there an
organization that represents and provides info for the homebrewer who has
most all the technical textbooks and has attended Siebels and is
considering the IOB exam?  
the AOB has little left to offer except their web site. And they can't get
ti updated in a timely fashion.  I am sure this is due to various time and
financial limitations.  Look a the beating Handspring is taking for being
so inept at e-commerce.  I'll continue to sing the praise of pat and karl
(or is it karl and pat) and the volunteer effort they put together.  they
provide a great archive of useful info for FREE.  MAD! magazine has
compiled all their issues on CD.  Find a picture of the devil and then one
of charlie.  I think it is a case of seperated at birth.  And to the guys
in michigan.  Before you agree to anything with the AHA get a contract that
gives yo the upper hand.  Oh and I'll add this to the list fo things to
work on in therapy to let go of.

Jim Liddil



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Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 20:26:55 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: HEaRMS

Jeff asks about Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash Systems and links for
plans. I don't have any plans for mine, but its not so top secret that
you'd have to buy the kit if there were any.

IGOR can be found at http://home.sprynet.com/~zymie/rims.html . You will
want to take a look at Rick Calley's system at
http://www.pressenter.com/~rcalley/index.htm . Also don't forget to
check out Nate Wahls (OOGIE, OOGIE!) system at
http://www.cros.net/cruiser/Brewery/nate_herms.html .

I've seen other Heat exchange systems on the web, but never kept a list
of links. Building one is not that complicated.


BTW, when exactly was the term HERMS coined? I first used the term
HEARMS in HBD 2617 back in January '98. Hmmm....kinda makes me wonder.


Anyway, good luck with your system Jeff, whether its a $20 coil, or a
$120 coil with helical doodads spun from unobtainium.


Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA


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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 1999 23:58:22 -0500
From: "Conan Barnes" <barneco at earthlink.net>
Subject: gelatin finings

quick question for the brew medics,

i have about half a case of a pale ale that i brewed a number of months ago.
i haven't had any of it in a while, and when i went to pour one the other
night, in most of the bottles i noticed a group of small particles floating
just under the shoulder of the bottle, very close to the glass.  my first
thought was that i'm seeing my first infection, but i thought i'd make sure
that it wasn't just yeast in suspension before i tossed it out.  i believe
this was my first batch using a secondary fermenter with gelatin for
finings.  i've heard that if gelatin is used improperly, you can end up with
a gooey mess.  while my beer isn't anywhere close to being jello, i'm
wondering if it's causing my yeast to hang in suspension instead of settle.
of course, maybe it's just an infection :P.  no extreme off flavors that my
uneducated palette can discern.  what do you guys think?

on an unrelated note...  for our first anniversary my wife went all out and
bought me a corny draft system(i'm still in shock about this one).  what's
the general concensus on keeping the co2 cylinder in the fridge vs. running
a gas line from the tank outside to the keg inside?

Thanks!

Conan Barnes
Columbus, GA



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---