---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Heated Lager fermentation, foamover, cornie tapping,  gelatin (Dave Burley)
  HERMS RIMS Sites. (WayneM38)
  RE: Munton's Wheat LME ("Martin Brungard")
  RE: Aquarium heaters for lagering (LaBorde, Ronald)
  aquarium heater, slow munich, blow-off, cheese ("Sean Richens")
  Blowoff (Eric R Lande)
  Rusty Anchors (ThomasM923)
  RE: Clogged Brewpot Drain ("Sherfey")
  Plenty Of Heat Makes It Ferment Quick ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  Re: Carboy Cleaning (KMacneal)
  Re: Clogged brewpot drain (RobertJ)
  Exploding Bottles? (Ross Reid)
  carboy cleaning (Demonick)
  Kurt's Clog ("Bruce Garner")
  Is Artemisia ever used in Saisons? ("Bruce Garner")
  Egg Drop Soup??? (Kevin Peters)
  Aeration ("Frank J. Russo")
  1999 Spooky Brew Competition results ("Jim Hodge")
  3 Tiered Home brewery (Joe Berlin)
  Lead and Brass ("Jack Schmidling")
  Winemaking ("Jack Schmidling")
  Repitching ale yeast / Non-oxidative staling reactions? ("Dean Fikar")
  Carboy cleaning (Eric R Lande)
  Corney pressure (Eric R Lande)
  Clogged valve (Dave Burley)
  Fermenter temperature control (Dave Burley)
  re: Aquarium heaters (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au>
  Converting Kegs (Brenton Vandepeer)
  Bonafied Styles Page ("Alan McKay")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 13:25:21 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Heated Lager fermentation, foamover, cornie tapping,  gelatin

Brewsters:

Dan Kiplinger say he wants to use an
aquarium heater to heat his lager fermentation
and is concerned because this solution sounds
so easy.

You forgot to tell us where you live. North Pole??
Antarctica??  Lager fermentation should always
be carried out at less than 55F and preferably
in the mid to high 40sF (That's Fahrenheit not
Celsius or Centigrade).  The reason your solution
of using an aquarium heater was so easy that
it was scary to you, was that it was the wrong
solution for most places and days of the year.
- --------------------------------
Ian Smith had a foamover and asks for guidance.

First, I wouldn't bother trying to recycle lost brew.
Why risk 5 gallons for a gallon? Not a good tradeoff.

Secondly, I'd lose the bad idea of doing a primary
fermentation in a carboy.  The result you got is to be
expected at least part of the time  if you use a carboy
no matter how big ( to the point of ridiculousness)
depending on the yeast, the pitching rate, the wort
and the pitching temperature.

I ferment in a 6 gallon plastic garbage can covered
with a plastic sheet held down by a chain of rubber
bands. I have never had a foam over.  The plastic
sheet (which I soak in a strong bleach solution,
shake and dip in boiling water before use) acts as
a physical defoamer and prevents any blowovers
and the like. The sheet can also be easily kept
clean or thrown away, unlike those blowoff tubes.
Normally, my fermentations' foams do not reach
the sheet, but if they do I'm covered, so to speak.
The can is also very easy to keep clean and
removing that ring of goop is a snap, unlike a 

carboy.
- ------------------------------------
Sounds like Conan Barnes married a "keeper"
who bought him a Cornie setup for their 

anniversary. Now that's class!!

To answer your question about the best way
to handle CO2 being inside the refrigerator
( don't - possibility of corrosion of the regulator
as you move it in and out of the fridge over time)
or poke holes thorugh the walls of the
refrigerator to install gas lines?  If this is your
family refrigerator, I would advise against this
or your SO may eventually rebel.

My solution, which I use, even though I have
my own fridge, is to keep the CO2 outside
open the fridge and attach the tank whenever
I want a  brew. I keep the cobra head inside
the fridge, but unattached to prevent leakage
or a potential accident. Remember to
depress the pin on the attachment to purge
the CO2 line of air, if this is the first brew of
the night. After the keg is partly empty
( or partly full depending on your outlook
on life) you can also have a few brews
without doing this, just be sure to recharge
the keg at nights' end.

This system appears more cumbersome,
but I can easily clean the cobra hose,
unlike those bolted in taps. I can have
several brews on tap. I don't have any
problem with leaking tanks or lines or
any drip pans. Although this is not as
classy, perhaps, I find it better overall.

Conan also has used gelatin to fine and 

wonders if the floating bits are gelatin
residues.  


I would suggest you not use any fining
agent with beer, except in extreme cases.
It is just a waste of good hops ( tannins 

from hops and other sources complex with
the gelatin, as with other proteins.) in most
cases and can change the character of
your beer. If you can, wait a week or so 

longer and drop the clarification step.
My beers from my cornies are always
clear after a week or two in the fridge. 


Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley 

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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 14:32:37 EST
From: WayneM38 at aol.com
Subject: HERMS RIMS Sites.

On Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 20:26:55 -0800 The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>  
Wayne writes:
<<Subject: HEaRMS
Jeff asks about Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash Systems and links for
plans. I don't have any plans for mine, but its not so top secret that
you'd have to buy the kit if there were any.
IGOR can be found at http://home.sprynet.com/~zymie/rims.html . You will
want to take a look at Rick Calley's system at
http://www.pressenter.com/~rcalley/index.htm . Also don't forget to
check out Nate Wahls (OOGIE, OOGIE!) system at
http://www.cros.net/cruiser/Brewery/nate_herms.html .
I've seen other Heat exchange systems on the web, but never kept a list
of links. Building one is not that complicated.
BTW, when exactly was the term HERMS coined? I first used the term
HEARMS in HBD 2617 back in January '98. Hmmm....kinda makes me wonder.>>

Wayne:
When doing the research for my HEMan RIMS in 1997-98 there were few Sites 
with links dedicated to Heat Exchange RIMS  other that the ones you listed 
above. I visited many homepages to come up with the final design for my 
system. BTW when friends and family comment on how I went overboard on my 
system, I refer them to your site and explain that I have the 'Chevy' 
homebrewing system compared to your 'Stainless Steel Porsche' homebrewing 
system.....

After I update a few typos and photos on my current RIMS page I will be 
looking for my next WEB project for those weeks when brewing outside in 
Wisconsin becomes too much of a challenge. 

Would a Heat Exchange RIMS links page be worth while? I have 2 megs of unused 
WEB space that could be used for a project like this.

One other note for Wayne, while Rodney Morris is credited with the first 
workable RIMS in 1992, there was a US patent submitted in 1986 for  the 
recirculation of the mash with a pump for homebrewing. 
How does that saying go? Nothing new under the sun.... 

Wayne
AKA Botanist Brewer
Big Fun Brewing RIMS Site


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Date: Fri, 05 Nov 1999 15:19:01 EST
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Munton's Wheat LME

Paul Haaf wrote several days ago:

Lately I've been purchasing Munton's Wheat LME in the 3 gal (33 lb)
'buckets'.  The last batch that I bought was NOT wheat malt.

I have a similar experience involving this product. I recently crafted two 
batches of a wheat beer a few months apart. Both batches were identical in 
all respects...ingredients, amounts, boiling times, methods, yeast, 
fermentation temp, etc.

The first batch was pale gold with the expected wheat crispness. The second 
batch was light brown with great deal more maltiness. The second batch was 
still good, it was just not what it was supposed to be.

The Wheat LME used in both batches was Munton's. I purchased it from my 
local homebrew retailer who I greatly respect. It was supplied by the pound 
from his drum (or bucket?) stock. He said that he hasn't had any complaints 
from any of his other customers, but maybe none of them knew what the 
finished product should have turned out like. I had the first batch to 
compare with, so I know the LME wasn't correct.

I appreciate Paul posting his findings about this Wheat LME because I was 
going crazy trying to figure out why the two batches weren't identical.

Sanity restored (partially at least)

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL

"Meandering to a different drummer"


______________________________________________________


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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 15:28:22 -0600 
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Aquarium heaters for lagering

From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>

>My plan is to get a submersible heater with the wattage recommended for 2
>times the volume that I intend on fermenting (I will be fermenting 20 gal).
>If I remember correctly from my days as an aquarium sales dude in
>highschool, it was 25 to 50 watts per 5 gallons.  This would mean that I
>would be looking to get a heater with a wattage between 200 and 400.  400
>watts seems a bit extreme 

Are you planing to put the heater into the wort? This would cause you to do
more sanitizing steps, and risk infection.  You can purchase heating tapes
from Grainger, in various lengths and wattage's, which can be wrapped around
the outside of your fermenter, then insulated, if desired.

I ferment in 5 gallon glass and use a single heating pad, on low.  I attach
it with a bunge cord around the pad and fermenter.  I then slip the probe of
a Radio Shack  digital thermometer on the side away from the pad and read
the temperature.  This works very well, but it doesn't get very cold here.
I would guess you could easily raise the temperature by 15 degrees F.
without insulation.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu


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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 17:56:36 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: aquarium heater, slow munich, blow-off, cheese

Re. aquarium heater:

You're ahead of the rest of us with your past aquarium experience, but I
would factor in one more thing - the wattage will be more or less
proportional to the delta T between the material to be heated and the
environment (since it's natural convection it's probably a bit more than
proportional).  Take the assumed difference between an aquarium and room
temperature and the actual difference between your desired lager temp and
the icebox (?) where you hold it and apply the ratio.  You really need to
heat a lager???

Good circulation is easy - put the heater way over on one side and
convection takes care of the rest.

Re. slow Munich 
Just ride it out and cross your fingers, if it's started already.  I once
pitched a Pilsener and went out of town for a week.  There was a cold snap
at home and in the end it spent a touch over two weeks fermenting in a
pail.  Another month later I re-pitched the yeast cake out of secondary and
it was fine.  I sure worried though, and I DEFINITELY tasted the hydrometer
sample before committing to re-pitching.

Hey blow-off dude - you try it and tell us if it works!  Har har har.  That
was unkind.  I've done things like that but use a separate gallon jug -
don't waste 5 gallons to save 1.

Cheese, huh?  Tried a really bad kit when I was a kid.  I'm too paranoid
about lactobacillus to do both beer and cheese.  Otherwise I'd be making
sauerkraut & pickles already.  Hey, know of any good sauerkraut sites?

Sean




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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 22:59:36 -0500
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Blowoff

 Ian Smith asked about how to save his beer from blowing off during
fermentation.

You wouldn't catch me draining my blowoff back into the carboy, Ian. 
That just sounds like trouble.  You might try lowering the temp. at which
you ferment.  I just fermented a brown ale at around 66F.  I know that
that is a little low but that is the temp of my basement.  The krausen
never reached the blow off tube and I replaced it with an air lock before
I went away for the weekend.  It took the better part of a week to
ferment, instead of three or four days, but I lost nothing. Lets hope it
tastes worth the wait.  Happy brewing.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 23:31:16 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: Rusty Anchors

One of my most favorite beers is Anchor porter. Not only is it somewhat hard 
to find in these parts, it is very hard to find it in fresh condition. Has 
anyone been able to decode the alphanumeric code on the back into meaningful 
born-on information? The last one I had was in sorry shape and had 9YD 
stamped on the back, perhaps for 9 Years olD.
 
Thanks in advance,
Thomas Murray


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 05:55:34 -0500
From: "Sherfey" <sherf at warwick.net>
Subject: RE: Clogged Brewpot Drain

Kurt-

Two questions.... Are you draining from the center or the side? How is that
scrubber attached?

I use a short piece of copper tubing that just fits into the drain of a 15
gal restaurant pot.  It's bent into a curve and is cut so that the open end
rests against the bottom corner and allows an opening for the drain.  It
kinda wedges in place using pressure between the welded drain and the side
of the brewpot.  The tube opening draws from the side of the pot and avoids
pulling in from the center (without a tube) with a wide open drain valve.

With leaf hops I tie a half choreboy to the end of the tube with solid
copper wire and can tilt the kettle at the end of the drain to get the
liquid out of the hops. With (any) pellet hops I use no choreboy and let the
whirlpool keep stuff away from the bottom corner and avoid the tilt and live
with the glop waste.

All swell and dandy but you're using a sankey....If you are draining from
the center of your sankey, or anywhere near the whirlpool cone, the
whirlpool won't be as effective because stuff will eventually pile on top of
the drain.  If the scrubber is stuffed into the drain, that could limit its
volume.


Cheers!

David Sherfey
Warwick, NY


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 22:15:07 +1100
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Plenty Of Heat Makes It Ferment Quick

Rarely do I take the opportunity to write a post which is anything less than
offensive, or for that matter anywhere near the target regarding subject
matter. But all this discussion on aquarium heaters has me a bit miffed.
Over here in a parched and sunburnt country, aquarium heaters are all the
go.

The idea is to get the less than acceptable 25C ambient temp way up around
the 30C mark and get that beer rolling off the line. Recently in Cairns
which is way north of the Tropic of Capricorn, I asked the local Homebrew
Supplier how the hell did they control their ferment temps. "No worries" he
said, "Up here it rarely gets much below 30C, No need for those fangled
heaters up here"!

Mind you, if you observed the consumption habits of some of the locals, you
might not wonder at the necessity to get that beer brewing fast!  As for
taste? Well no one seems to care.

Now coming from a sophisticated brewing background (read a handful of
books), I of course would not be seen indulging in such outlandish brewing
behaviour.

But the boys up north, well they seem to be enjoying themselves despite all
the rules they fail to heed.

I guess when you lose a mate to a crocodile every other day, brewing that
beer fast and drinking it takes on a sense of urgency!

Phil Yates


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:46:50 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Carboy Cleaning

In a message dated 11/6/1999 12:22:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, "James R M  
Gilson" <JIMKATZOO at email.msn.com> writes:

<< I was having trouble cleaning the trub out of my carboys, even when I would
 start rinsing immediately after transfer into the bottling bucket. Some of
 the crud would always remain and I would put a small scrubby pad in with
 some water and have to hoist and gyrate to swirl the water in the neck to
 get the crud out. >>

I have one of the jet bottle washers and have found it works great for 
blasting the yeast cake off the bottom of the carboy.  For the scum that 
usually accumulates around the neck, I let the fill the carboy with bleach 
water and let it sit over night and then attack it with a carboy brush.



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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 08:27:58 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Clogged brewpot drain

Kurt Kiewel wrote

Brewers,  I can't solve the mystery of clogged brewpot.  I brew in a
converted sankey with a valve installed near the bottom to which a
stainless scrubber is fitted.   After cooling with an immersion chiller,
whirlpooling and waiting for 20min for everything to settle I get about 1/3
cup of wort out of the spout before it clogs.

I have been using pelletized hops.  Is this a mistake? 


In my experience a scrubby will work better with whole leaf hops. The hops
will then filter out the trub.

If you want to use pellets and allow the break to settle just make sure the
drain opening is above the trub. With a keg, to achieve this you will just
need a side drain rather than a drain with pick up tube and scrubby.
Because of the concave bottom of the keg, you will lose a bit more wort.

Bob


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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 15:44:50 GMT
From: mrreid at golden.net (Ross Reid)
Subject: Exploding Bottles?

There's been a lot of discussion in rec.food.preserving over the past
few days regarding the safety of following a posted recipe for
homemade soda pop. 
My contention is that anyone using the recipe is asking for problems,
others say everything will be fine.
What are the chances of exploding bottles if one follows the recipe as
posted?
5 gallons of water
5 pounds of sugar
Stir well 'till sugar is dissolved.
Add 1 packet of yeast, either bread or champagne type.
Mix well.
Immediately pour into used 2 liter soda bottles. Cap tightly and store
in a warm place for 5 days.
After 5 days move to cool place.

What say you?

Cheers,
Ross.

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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 07:45:24 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: carboy cleaning

From: "James R M  Gilson" <JIMKATZOO at email.msn.com>

>I was having trouble cleaning the trub out of my carboys, even when I
>would start rinsing immediately after transfer into the bottling
>bucket. Some of the crud would always remain and I would put a small
>scrubby pad in with some water and have to hoist and gyrate to swirl
>the water in the neck to get the crud out. At the homebrew shop they
>suggested using ammonia. It worked great. Until one sunny afternoon

Jim,

It's even easier.  After immediately rinsing the chunks out of the
fermenter, pour in a cup or two of household bleach and fill the
carboy to the brim.  Cover brim with foil as a safety precaution.  
Let stand for a few days, or a few weeks, or some months.  All the
organic crud will magically disappear.  Rinse.  

Actually, I store my carboys full of 1 cup bleach in 5 gallons.  

Cheers!

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:10:14 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Kurt's Clog

I had the same problem. My Sankey has an L pipe to the bottom which I used
to rotate into position with a donut of SS scrubby around it. I counterflow
chill and the hot break and hops would soon clog the outlet. Whole hops were
better but it was still slow. I got rid of the scrubby and have been using a
nylon sockette which I sterilized in idophor to catch the hot break and hop
bits at the outlet of my chiller. As the cool wort wort runs down the
sockette it picks up a bit of oxygen. The flow is much better. I put the
sockette inside the carboy and it filled like a light bulb. I pulled it out
very slowly when done and wrung out a bit more wort that way. I usually
ferment in an open topped Sankey and then I clip the sockette horizontally
across the opening so that wort drips along its length. The other thing to
consider is having your boil kettle as high as you can and your fermentor
down low. Use a longer hose and you will have a greater head pressure.

Hope this helps
Bruce


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 10:22:04 -0600
From: "Bruce Garner" <bpgarner at mailbag.com>
Subject: Is Artemisia ever used in Saisons?

Body: Is Artemisia ever used in Saisons?



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Date: Sat, 06 Nov 1999 14:49:41 -0800
From: Kevin Peters <kpeters at ptd.net>
Subject: Egg Drop Soup???

I used Weissheimer pilsener malt for the first time and experienced a
form of hot break that is best described as egg drop soup.  This was in
addition to the normal hot break flakes of about 1/8 inch or so in
size.  The recipe was 45% Weissheimer, 45% Weyerman pils, and 10% M&F
carapils.  Has anybody else seen this with the Weissheimer?

Kevin Peters
Mechanicsburg, PA


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 14:54:25 -0500
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Aeration

Greetings Beerlings!

	Bear with me while I get my thoughts down on page here and put together my
question.  Let start with the starter.  If I create a starter 3 days prior
to pitching, one of the things I should be doing is aerating the culture.
So I put my air stone in the culture,  turn on the pump of course, just let
it run for the 3 days.  This helps develop a large, health yeast colony.  So
far so good?

	Now lets go to the Wort.  I put the wort in the primary fermenter and now I
want to aerate the wort well.  There is an awful lot in the archives on
this.  I put my air stone in the wort, turn on the pump and let it run
overnight.  Now I have a well aerated wort.  Problems?

	Okay, I am getting close to my question.  I now pitch the yeast culture
into the primary.  Normally, I now put on the airlock and let it go for 5
days to a week.  What if for a set time X HOURS after pitching, you
continued to aerate the wort?  Yes I know about oxidation etc...  But, is
there a time period after pitching, when continued aeration will be of
benefit to the yeast culture without causing damage to the wort, 4 hours, 8
hours, 12 hours, 24 hours????  Anyone have any answers or ideas here.  If
not I guest I have to create an experiment on my own and report back.

Frank Russo
"There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 16:08:36 -0600
From: "Jim Hodge" <jdhodge at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: 1999 Spooky Brew Competition results

The 1999 Spooky Brew Review Homebrew Competition was held on October 30th at
O'Grady's Pub and Brewery in Arlington Heights, IL.  right now, the results
can be viewed at http://home.att.net/~jdhodge and they will be viewable
shortly at their permanent home at http://www.chibeer.org

Jim Hodge
Chicago Beer Society


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 17:07:11 -0600 (CST)
From: TO1JRB at webtv.net (Joe Berlin)
Subject: 3 Tiered Home brewery

I'm just getting into all grain brewing. I'm going to use a 14in.
diameter x23in. ss pool filter tank as a HLT. I have a ss tank 16in
diameter x 56in. that will be cut into 2 pots for the Mash/Lauter Tun
and the brew Kettle .How tall should I make each of the tank parts to
get the most volume out of what I have? What will the volume of the
Brewing Kettle and MLT be ? At a later day I may make this into a HERMS
or RIMS. Would a plexiglass lid be ok for the HLT and Brewing Kettle?
Thank you good people for your input to a newbie .  From the future home
of the "Hair of the dog Brewery"  Joe Berlin


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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:07:22 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Lead and Brass

Seems like time for my "for what it's worth" posting again.

Back when fears of lead in brass were rampant, I did the knee jerk thing and
designed an all plastic SLEEZYMASHER(r) but before marketing it, I did a bit of
a pseudo scientific investigation to see if the real problem was lead in brass
or the nice folks who make a living scaring people.

I made a batch of beer using Chicago tap water, which was mashed, boiled and
fermented in kettles with brass, off-the-shelf EASYMASHERS (R).

I sent a sample of the beer along with a sample of the same tap water to a
testing lab and the results actually indicated that there was more lead in the
tap water than in the beer.  It was a meaningless factoid as the level was at
the margin of resolution of the test lab.  The most that could really be said
was that there was no measureable amount of lead in the beer.

Needless to say, I quit worrying about it and sent the SLEEZYMASHER off to the
museum of bad ideas.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
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Date: Sat, 6 Nov 1999 19:39:19 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Winemaking

From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>

"  You ought to try the current selection of concentrates. The results far
surpass "jug wines" and numerous customers of mine have quit going to the liquor
stores for $18 and $20
bottles of wine. If you were purchase a _complete_starter wine kit from
me you would be getting 25 bottles of wine for slightly over $3 /bottle

I have a better idea.  Why don't you send me a sample of wine made from your kit
that you feel is equivalent to a $20 wine.  If what you claim is true, I will
appologize profusely and become your strongest supporter.

BTW, jug wine works out to about $2 per bottle and the ones I drink are worth
every penny of it.  It can't compare to European vin ordinare but it is quite
drinkable at the daily table.

> It must have been years since Jack has tried making wine so his results arre
fairly dated;

It has been many years since I quit using concentrate for reasons previously
stated but I do make wine every year now from my own vinyard.

>what he is stating is no more correct than saying, "All dried beer yeasts are
bread yeasts."

I fail to see the anology.  What I thought I said was that, making wine from
concentrates has about the same potential as making beer from extracts.  I am
certainly willing to be proven wrong but the ball in in your hands now.

js

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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 10:56:36 -0600
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Repitching ale yeast / Non-oxidative staling reactions?

Dave says:

"For sure, racking an ale wort onto a
complete yeast cake from a previous
brew is the wrong way to go since you
want some yeast growth for ales."

Is this really true?  I haven't seen this in any of the books I've read.  My
standard repitching procedure is to rack (ales or lagers) onto the entire
yeast cake from the primary (I typically don't use a secondary) and aerate
with pure O2.  Is this wrong?

- -------------------------------------------------------

As we all know, most of the staling reactions we worry about are due to
oxygen left after packaging.  What if you ferment in a keg and are careful
to *completely* purge the receiving keg with CO2 leaving no air?  George Fix
told me once that he has followed similar procedures and has measured no O2
in the receiving keg if it is completely purged and pushed over from the keg
primary with CO2.  I'm sure that even if there is no O2 left there will
still be limits as to how long the beer will keep, especially at higher
temps.  What other types of non-oxidative reactions will take place?  How
much longer will beer keep at a given temperature if completely removed from
oxygen after pitching?  Inquiring minds want to know...


Dean Fikar - Fort Worth, TX


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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:48:58 -0500
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Carboy cleaning

In HBD #3163 Jim Gilson asks about cleaning the growth out of his carboy.
 

Yes, Jim, I get it, Solution.  I had a really nasty carboy before my last
batch - had yeast, trub, etc. in there for months.  I added some dish
washer detergent and filled it up with water and let it sit in the
garage.  After a coupled of days all the crap had not only softened, but
had cleaned itself off the sides and just needed to be dumpe and rinsed. 
I think that I may have read this here on the HBD a couple of months
back.  Good luck.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 09:30:00 -0500
From: Eric R Lande <landeservices at juno.com>
Subject: Corney pressure

In his response to Conan Barnes' question in HBD #3163 about pressure for
his new corney keg/fridge, Darren Robey expresses his view and is worried
about flaming.  Darren, you go boy!  I do exactly the same thing:  Put
pressure on the keg, drink, put more pressure on it when needed.  The
only thing that I may do differently is that when I am done with the keg
for the session, I'll typically add extra pressure - maybe 10 or 15 lbs.
over serving pressure - to make sure the carbonation in the beer will not
come out of solution because of a head pressure that it too low.  This
seems to work very well for me.


Eric Lande
Doylestown, PA


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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:15:00 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Clogged valve

Brewsters:

Kurt gets about a quart of wort out of his whirlpooled
bottom valved brewpot before it clogs.
He asks for suggestions.

Two things spring to mind: 1) Use whole leaf hops
and place a SS choreboy over the inlet to the valve.
This should work fine if you can get the opening of
the valve up into the interior of the choreboy
scrubber.  If not, make an extension which slides
over the valve inlet and into the choreboy 

OR 2) Install a bigger ball valve to let the hop
pieces through.

Even though it isn't as you planned and you
don't want to do it, racking is your back-up
method.  Whole leafs are superior in this
instance also when using a choreboy over
the end of the racking cane.
- --------------------------
Jim that solution of fertilizing ammonia
( farmers use it on their fields all the time)
you put into your carboy and various
proteinaceous gunk in there was probably
just the thing algae and bacteria needed to
grow once you added time and sunlight.
I wouldn't leave it in the carboy for very
long to avoid this problem as other
invisible things also grow in this marvelous
nutrient filled bath.

The real solution ( get it? - solution) is to
use bleach instead of ammonia. A small
amount of straight bleach swirled over the
gunk will loosen it. After 15 minutes a good
hot water addition with swirling will do the
job completely. I often leave a small
amount of dilute bleach solution in the
carboy and cover the top with saran
wrap until next use of bleach before I
use the carboy. 


BTW NEVER use bleach and ammonia
together.  

- ----------------------------
Alan Meeker and I have been discussing
yeast growth habits and contributon to
flavor components of beer.  


I was surprised when Alan commented
that the majority of the fermentation took
place during the  growth phase of the yeast
( I assume you mean the population of
yeast or do you mean the individual cell?),
since I had assumed that all yeast which
are still alive are processing sugar.  As
a percentage, the new yeast is far
outnumbered by the fully grown yeast at
equilibrium. I have never seen a plot of
% sugar consumption versus % of
equilibrium population. Do you have
some kind of numbers to support this?

Alan, do you agree that yeast come to
an equilibrium population value
( regardless of how complex a control
process you believe it is) during and
before the end of a fermentation?
And that this is relatively standard
population value for normal fermentations?
Both lager and ale yeasts?

Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 12:15:48 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Fermenter temperature control

Brewsters:

Dan Kiplinger clarifed his need for a fermentation
temperature control for lagers. The temperature
in his garage will bounce around 40 during the
winter.  Chances are he may not need a heater
for 20 gallons of lager if he insulates the tank
properly and if this is the temperature range.
The danger with temperature for lager yeast in
this range is more due to rapid fluctuations
( rapid fall)  than to actually too cold. Be sure
you have a starter which was started cold and
at or below the temperature of your fermentation.

It would be nice however, to control the
temperature better.  The aquarium heater(s)
should work, but I would suggest you recirculate
water through a separate coil of copper
refrigerator tubing which is placed in the
insulated fermenter, rather than heating the wort
directly. This will be much more sanitary and
easy to keep it that way and it avoids any
potential for charring as others have noted.
The agitation from the fermentation should
stir this adequately to get good heat exchange.

You may even consider using this copper
tubing as a temperature control to avoid too
warm a fermentation also ( if your garage is
that cold) by having a section of the coil
exposed to the cold air to act as a radiator
in the early part of the fermentation.  I
visualize a recirculating system in which a
section of the coil is in the fermenter and
another section of the coil is outside the
fermenter and exposed to the cold air.
The heater must be placed such that the
water from the fermenter passes through the
heater prior to the outside  exposed coil.
If the re-circulating water is over the
desired temperature, the heater will not
be activated. and the  water circulating will
be cooled and cool the fermenter. As the
fermentation cools to below the desired
temperature, the heater will be applied
and the temperature controlled to some 

extent. Early in the fermentation you may
need to put a fan on this coil radiator.

Problem with this suggestion is that the
 water warmed by the heater will be
passing through the exposed coil and
make the heater less efficient. I don't
know if this is a problem or not, but  a
simple valving system could be used
to avoid this problem on extremely cold
nights.
- ----------------------------------------------
SteveA's musings ( welcome back from
your Germany trip) on how to be successful
in a large corporation by mouthing the
currently acceptable mantra, having a
full head of hair and being 6 ft 1" tall reminds
me of two things on which I have privately
mused in the past.

The Japanese have a saying:

"It is the nail that sticks up
that gets hammered down". 


Uniformity is most important in their society.
And this attitude probably reflects their
inability to  invent anything. I once asked one
of my Japanese friends why all of the words
describing things like telephone, computer and
seat belt and such were really english words.
His answer? "because the Japanese never
invented anything!" Turns out he was more
right than wrong. The Japanese are really
excellent at copying and improving things
because they move forward with total
concensus on every front. But any person
who has an idea outside the "norm" is quickly
moved a long way away from the boss at
dinner and his desk moves closer to the
window. Both (not so) subtle indications of group
shame and dislike.

This is the hallmark of any large corporation
( and Japan Inc is one) is a bureaucracy
which is excellent at doing what they do very well
over and over again because everything is
tightly controlled. This is not all bad and the
majority of our efficient society is due to this
idea.The downside of this is that any creativity
or change is squeezed out as are openly creative
people.

American corporations suffer from this same
disease. They buy creations from outside.
Any completely new business has no place
and will likely founder without support.  I know
of a German corporation whose research arm
functions entirely independent of the business
( a good thing, usually) but when it comes time
to take the creations to market, no existing
business will do it. The megabuck research
and patent support just withers away. I used
this basic corporate failure-to-create in a
business I started. I spun off these creations to
other corporations who had a business in the area.
It's called Technology Transfer and critical to
a mega-corporation moving forward, given their
innate inability to create internally.

I also worked for many years for a major US
corporation. How did I achieve a modicum of
creative success in this corporate environment?
I just went out and did what needed doing in
my estimation and picked up the pieces later.
The risk? My job. I never lost one.
And if I couldn't be creative? My sanity.

What's the answer to SteveA's dismal outlook?
I encourage all you creative people (and I
will bet the HBD has a really high percentage
and why I am writing this here) to break the bonds
of control quietly.  Be surreptitiously creative
and then you won't have to regrow hair or
grow a few inches taller.

Nothing succeeds like unexpected ( by your
colleagues) good results. Bigger markets, better
products cannot be denied. Your boss will be
happy he thought of the idea and somewhere
in the organization ( advertise your success
wherever you can) there are other higher
Cloaked Creators who will recognize your
success and promote you.

Have the balls to Be Creative!! You only have
a few years. It is your American Duty and
Duty to Yourself when you will have lost all
your hair and are a few inches shorter.

Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 23:46:16 -0000 
From: "Ackland, Tony (CALNZAS)" <Tony.Ackland at comalco.riotinto.com.au>
Subject: re: Aquarium heaters

Rather than use a submersible heater, i have used the heating element from a
water-bed with quite a bit of sucess.  Nothing to break or burn-out.  With
the decline of water-bed popularity, it is quite cheap and easy to find
these in second-hand goods shops, garage sales, etc, for around $15.  They
are already sealed waterproof, and thus impervious to the occasional splash
or two... I wrap mine around the outside of the fermenter barrel, and tape
the temperature probe to the side of the barrel, up near the top of liquid
level.  Then wrap the whole arrangement with an old blanket.  This then
leaves the thermostat sitting out where you can easily watch it.  The first
run lets ya know the offset involved - eg if i set my thermostat to 21C i
obtain 24C in the fermenter.  It supplies a nice uniform heat to the whole
side of the fermentor, and you get a nice slow circulation in the fermentor
due to convective flow in the liquid.  This then means that when i turn it
off, the yeast all settles in one fell swoop - forming a thinner, more
compact layer on the bottom, less likely to carry over during bottling or
transfering to  a secondary.



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Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 11:07:49 +1030 (CST)
From: Brenton Vandepeer <bvandepe at gsoft.com.au>
Subject: Converting Kegs

I've finally taken the plunge and started the long and
arduous process of converting some kegs into a brewery.
Up 'til now, I've been using a large copper (aka laundry
copper) to mash and boil in, but the constant battle for
sufficient sparge water has forced my hand. I'm not sure
how far I'm going to go with this at this point in time -
a HERMS is not out of the question - but for now the object
of the exercise was to convert a ball-lock SS keg into a
HLT. (As an aside, I'm not sure how this keg relates to what
you North American HBD-ers call Sanke kegs, Corney kegs, etc.
It's a 10 gallon ball lock keg with DAB markings. Apparently,
they were imported to Oz for a large function and, once emptied,
scrapped.)

The point of this post is simply to provide another data point
on the feasibility of opening these kegs up. I've read a fair
bit of the available literature out there on the 'net, and had
gotten the strong impression that a plasma cutter was the only
way to go. Not having access to one of these toys and being a
fairly skeptical Aussie, I decided to have a go at it with the
tools at my disposal - viz, a hand-held jigsaw and an angle
grinder.

First, let me say that the jigsaw was not a viable option. I
found tha tit cut the SS remarkably easily, and would have happily
cut the top out of the keg with it, except that it would go around
corners! Certainly not at the curve radius I wanted to cut at -
around 14 cm, I guess. Bummer.

Second, the angle grinder did a very nice job of it. Contrary
to some of the articles I've read, it did not take any great
effort, and I didn't wear out "several" cutting disks. I guess
I ablated 30-50% of the disk I had in the grinder at the
time - it wasn't a new disk at the start of the process. The
edges of the cut were, obviously, fairly rough, but after
about 20 minutes of grinding, filing and buffing with emery
paper, I had a smooth edge from which not even a 2 year old could
draw blood.

Oh well, now it's off to the welders with fittings in hand...
- ---
Brenton Vandepeer,
Genesis Software, Pty Ltd.   email:  bvandepe at gsoft.com.au


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Date: Sun, 7 Nov 1999 22:04:59 -0500
From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com>
Subject: Bonafied Styles Page

Hi folks,

A while ago I started up a page called "Bonafied Styles"
http://www.bodensatz.com/homebrew/tips/styles/bonafied/index.html

It is meant as a reference for people to know what a particular
style of beer tastes like.  Unfortunately there haven't been a lot of
contributions to it, so I'm sending out the call again.

As I mentioned last time, if you've never been in Cologne, then
I won't consider your opinions on a Bonafied Koelsch.  Similar
goes for any other style.  No offense, but if you haven't had the
real thing, then you can't know the real thing.

cheers,
 -Alan

- --
- --
Alan McKay
amckay at ottawa.com
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html






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---