---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Millennium and mead! (David Johnson)
  Re. Scotch Ale ("Dean Fikar")
  First Wort Hopping (Matthew Arnold)
  BT back issues (Anderson)
  Sierra Nevada Summerfest Recipe (J Daoust)
  A new method of support for the Digest... (Pat Babcock)
  One for the Aussies again ("Darren Robey")
  Benzene, Odd Day, and Dr. Pepper Stout (James Jerome)
  Home Malting/Breadmaking ("Keith Menefy")
  Re: Unmalted wheat (KMacneal)
  BT - Thanks Stephen Mallery ("Rob Jones")
  Question on Welding Aluminum (Alan McKay)
  Rose hips ("Frank J. Russo")
  Benzene and public safety ("Peter J. Calinski")
  BT ... I'll miss it! ("Brian Dixon")
  Re: wheat (Jeff Renner)
  Benzene: "Toxic" or "Non-Toxic"? (Paul Hausman)
  further to open fermentation (Robin Griller)
  decoctions, oops used the wrong word! (Robin Griller)
  Russian Imperial Stout ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Ammonia/Yeast bite (AJ)
  Benzene as a  human carcinogen ("Alan Meeker")
  RE: Hoegaarden gone soft?! ("Houseman, David L")
  dry hopping with pellets ("Houseman, David L")
  Refrigerator Woes ("Luke Van Santen")
  RE: Hoegararden (Pat Babcock)
  Help With Cloning ("Weaver T. Capt - 43MDG/SGOAM")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 15:35:13 -0500 (EST)
From: David Johnson <dmjohnson at pol.net>
Subject: Millennium and mead!

Befor I get into the main part of my post, I am finally caught up with 
the HBD and thus qualified to post again after many months. Not 
wanting to sound more ignorant than I am.

In answer to the post about the stuck mead, I notice that he said he 
had 15lbs of honey in a 5 gal. batch and ended up with an OG of 
1.145-150. This seems a little high to me. He would have gotten about 
50 points of gravity from each pound of honey. I wonder about 
measurement here. That sweet mead yeast is not a great fermenter of 
low nutrient musts. On the Mead lovers digest I have read about a lot 
of stuck fermentations with it. I don't think your experience is that 
much off the usual for that yeast getting about an 80 point gravity 
drop on a low nutrient must seems about right(ABV of 10%?). I do 
wonder about the gravity readings. Either the weight of honey , the 
volume of the must, or the gravity readings you have seem to be off. I 
have taken to using Lalvin yeasts. Lots of beer brewers denigrate 
dried yeasts, but many mead and wine makers find the dried products 
more than adequate for our needs. I am also using Lalvin D-47 for 
cider this year.  

I lend my support to those that realize that the Millennium is not yet 
upon us (good for us procrastinators). On the other hand the meeting 
in Detroit might be a good warm up. When do we start planning the 


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:49:37 -0600
From: "Dean Fikar" <dfikar at flash.net>
Subject: Re. Scotch Ale

Scotch ale/visiting St. Paul ("Russ Hobaugh")
>
>
>
>I am looking for advice on brewing a strong scotch ale.
>I would like it to have some smoky presence through
>the use of peat smoked malt, but don't know how much
>to use.
>
>

Here's a recipe snippet from the first smoked Strong Scotch Ale I brewed
which turned out great (full recipe details are on p. 50 of the current
Zymurgy).  I smoked 4.5 pounds of grain over oak in a dedicated smoker for
about 2 hrs.

One word of caution:  This beer was WAY SMOKY for about 3-4 mos. (I darned
near tossed it!) then it mellowed quite nicely.

Smoked Wee Heavy #1


Batch size:        7 gal.
OG:            1.089
FG:            1.029
Efficiency:       77 %
IBU:              22
Color (SRM):      18

Grain bill:

Belgian CaraVienne                1.00 lbs.
Belgian Aromatic                  1.00 lbs.
Belgian CaraMunich                1.00 lbs.
Belgian Munich                    2.00 lbs.
Smoked Pale Malt                  4.50 lbs.
British Pale                     13.00 lbs.
Roasted Barley                    2.00 oz.
Belgian Special-B                 6.00 oz.

East Kent Goldings                 6.8 %    1.50 oz.      75 min.

Yeast:

Wyeast  1338 (slurry from last batch)

Mash Specifics:

1.)  Infused 6.75 gal. water at 162F for a 20 min. rest at 150F.
2.)  Mash heated by steam to 155F then rested for 70 min.

Boil time: 100 min.


- ---------------------------------------------
Dean Fikar - Ft. Worth, TX (dfikar at flash.net)



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:50:21 -0600
From: Matthew Arnold <revmra at iname.com>
Subject: First Wort Hopping

I've used First Wort Hopping on my IPA. It provides some spectacular hop
flavor, way better than any other method I have tried. Here's the recipe, for
those of you who care:

Lion Fan in Packerland Extremely Bitter IPA
(assumes 70% mash efficiency)
12# Pale Ale malt
 .5# 40L Crystal
 .5# Victory malt
 .5# Carapils malt
2 oz Galena (12% AA--60 minutes)
2 oz Cascade (3.5% AA--1 oz FWH, 1 oz dry hop)
2 oz Northern Brewer (8.5% AA--.5 oz FWH, .5 oz--10 minutes, 1 oz dry hop)
Your favorite English ale yeast (I prefer Whitbread aka Wyeast #1098)

It's the closest I've come to the "wall of hops" beer. Very tasty, IMO. I've
also used Columbus in the place of Galena.

My big question is this: How do people calculate the bitterness contributed
from the first-wort hops? Based on the article Jeff R. quoted, I've always
calculated them as if they were added with 20 minutes left in the boil. I've
seen others who say that you should figure a _greater_ bitterness contribution
than if you added them at the start of the boil!

Obviously, it doesn't matter much with this recipe. The more bitterness with an
IPA, the merrier! But I want to try my hand at a pilsner again this winter.
Such a delicate beer could be thrown way out of whack by over-bittering.
Thoughts? Hearsay? Innuendo?

Thanks!
  Matt
- -----
Webmaster, Green Bay Rackers Homebrewers' Club


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 20:20:21 -0800
From: Anderson <rsda at istar.ca>
Subject: BT back issues

As a Canadian who is long used to sucking at the hind tit when receiving US
periodicals I am obliged to point out that I have in my hot little hand the
back issues from BT in lieu of cash payout.

I also note that Stephen Mallory has posted a credible explanation for the
delay in mailing out the balance of back issues.

I for one will not re-subscribe to Zymurgy. As a matter of fact I gave away
4 years of Zymurgy to a neophyte home-brewer. Which is where that magazine
appears to be happiest - i.e. with the beginner.

But I am quite willing to support a brewing magazine that straddles the
line between serious amateurs and small-scale commercial breweries. I may
never get around to starting my own brewery but this must be one of the few
hobbies that the amateur has a real shot at turning pro.

Dream on,
Stuart


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 21:42:39 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: Sierra Nevada Summerfest Recipe

Would anyone have a S.N  Summerfest recipe floatin' around?????  Thanks,
Jerry Daoust


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 00:57:07 -0800
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: A new method of support for the Digest...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Folks, usually at this time I go begging for donations for some server 
project or other. This year, we're in good shape - mostly because of all 
the help you gave us back in September when the server did a major 
crash-and-burn. We have a new, bigger, faster box for the HBD, plus another 
(believe it or not: the original "Frankenserver" that was constructed when 
we took over the Digest three years ago!) online right alongside it to aid 
in future calamities. We also have one humming alongside me (the one that 
died such a horrible death back in September) which I am preparing to do a 
complete mirror of the main server. And to bone up on my Linux skills.

Our goal this time out is to try and find a "renewable", constant means of 
support for the Digest servers. If we are able to, and the levels are high 
enough, we hope to bring the servers "home" on a DSL line. This will help 
in those instances where we reset the box, and she never comes back online 
 - like a couple of weekends ago (blush). Unfortunately, the times I usually 
think to do such things are the least convenient in terms of when the staff 
at O&E are available to help (There is a method to my madness: it's usually 
Saturday night or Sunday evening. Sunday is a Digest-less day, anyway...).

Anywho, we have stumbled upon this thing called "AllAdvantage" which, 
frankly, pays us to surf the net. Karl and I have both signed on with our 
receipts for participation funding the server. Karl referred me, so he gets 
paid for every minute I spend online, as well as every minute HE spends 
online. If I refer you, I'll get paid for every minute you spend online (so 
will you, and so does Karl). Anyone you refer, they get paid, you get paid, 
and I get paid. Kind of a no-pain MLM. There is a catch, though. There is a 
"bar" that lives in the bottom inch or so of my monitor. This bar gives me 
access to my AllAdvantage account, and gives them access to me. Frankly, 
they SPAM the living hell out of me by pumping adds into their viewbar. 
I've gotten used to it. And I've even "clicked through" a few times as the 
items/services displayed were of interest. The point being, they'll pay you 
for being on the web, and they'll pay me (thus, the HBD) for you being on 
the web, and they'll pay Karl (and thus the HBD) for you being on the web. 
 Or on AOL, or writing a note in Netscape...

If you'd like to participate in this, stop by 
http://hbd.org/alladvantage.html and it will tell you how to join the 
effort. We'd all appreciate your help. If not, please pardon this brief 
intrusion into your daily dose of the Digest!

 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 17:35:45 +1000
From: "Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au>
Subject: One for the Aussies again



OK fellow Aussies,

I'm going to be in Perth in the next few weeks and was wonderingif anyone
knew of any brew pubs or the like worth a visit. Not to sure just how much
time I'll have there but it would be good to find a good watering hole
rather than drink Emu Export at the local (no offence to any fans of the
stuff if they exist)

thanks

Darren



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 01:56:54 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Benzene, Odd Day, and Dr. Pepper Stout

Hi, Ya'll

The comments by Frank Timmons (HBD#3177) about CO2 are seconded by
another industrial chemist (me).  What he said is correct.  When you
have spent the last 3 months grilling suppliers about contaminants at
the ppb level in delivered CO2 and NH3 for pharmaceutical applications,
benzene is TRULY infinitesimal.

Also, thank you Dave Burley for the diatribe (HBD#3177) concerning the
fallacy of benzene toxicity in human subjects.  My former organic
professor washed his hands in copious amonts of benzene to remove the
stench of trace thiols and mercaptans for 30 years before deciding to
teach.  He is retired now happily, cancer-free, at 80+ years old.  Some
studies have shown that Benzene derivatives are powerful intercalating
agents on human DNA, but none of these studies have been done in vitro,
and none implicate simple benzene (Kekule would be happy). 

By the way, I think Dave has performed a test on the Collective with his
Odd Day Proclamation to see who was paying attention.  Or maybe he was
getting a bit chilly in November and  decided to get some flame action
happening just to keep warm.  

For those of you out there thinking of doing a mint stout, I suggest
that you ONLY use peppermint as opposed to spearmint.  I made a 5 gallon
batch of stout and used a bunch of spearmint from my yard to flavor it. 
I called it 4 Nines Mint Chocolate Stout because I brewed it on 9/9/99. 
What I got was a very dark stout from a high malt bill that tastes
exactly like I poured Dr. Pepper into a perfectly good stout.  My wife
says it tastes like medicine( but what does she know, she likes Rolling
Rock).  After two or three decent homebrews, it is drinkable, with a
creamy vigorous head.  Luckily I like Dr. Pepper.  I'm hoping a couple
of months will help, but I doubt it.  At least I'm willing to drink it,
but I learned a lesson.  I'll try to follow the recipe in the future (it
did specify Peppermint, but I ignored that). 

As to Alan Meeker's contemplation about writing a comprehensive book on
the use of yeast in brewing...I'll buy the first copy.  Your advice
about pitching a LOT of yeast has improved my last couple of efforts
tremendously (not including the mint stout-my bad).  I'm almost at the
point where I can intelligently make use of more detailed information. 
Write the book!

I plan on celebrating New Year's with several good homebrews, but at
midnight I crack open my little blue bottle of Samuel Adams Triple Bock
from 1995.  The tag on the bottle requests that I send my comments to
the brewmaster, because they have no idea how it'll turn out.  Can't
wait.

Eat Turkey, Drink Homebrew, Attempt to Watch Football,



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 20:15:27 +1300
From: "Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Home Malting/Breadmaking

G'Day

In HOMEBREW Digest #3167, 11/11/99 Clifton Moore writes:

>I now have tons of good quality barley and a garage full of malting plant.

>It is my hope that this post will stimulate some discussion.
>Have at it.

I'm not really surprised that this article has not generated much
discussion.
I am a wee bit in awe of anyone who can casually talk of homemalting in
terms of tons.

However, same view from a different angle.
Love the idea of a climate controlled germination room.
In my experience the only difference between undermodified  and fully
modified is time. As the grain grows it is using its stored water with no
replenishment and the rate of growth slows down.
With my system I can get 50 percent modified grain in 3 days in the
germination box.
To get the next 30 percent takes 3 more days.

With my steeping process, apart from an initial 4hr soak, the grain is never
left totally immersed in water for more than 5 minutes. The grain gets
covered with fresh water, stirred to float of the debris, and then drained.
The moist grain soaks up the available water and stays a lot healthier than
with continuous steeping. More in line with what the seed gets in natural
conditions. This gets repeated every few hours (or when I remember). The
first rootlets  start to emerge at about 30hrs when it is given a final
drink and then into the germination box.

In 'The Historical Companion to House-Brewing' by Clive La Pensee he
recommends that the germination cycle of the grain be kept in the dark.  He
says it is something to do with photosynthesis, which doesn't make much
sense to me, but it is closer to the natural germination conditions that the
seed is expecting so I do it. It just seems to keep the synchrony of the
germination at a fairly close level.
He also recommends keeping it in the dark for drying and storage.

I have come to prefer my home malted pale malts for flavour to the
commercially available product (Moray Firth). Haven't been able to get the
Munich types right yet.
The only real problem is that with every variation I try, the only way to
find out if it works or not is to brew another beer with it. You really need
to be dedicated to keep going, but I'm working at it.

~~~~
New topic:
Has anyone tried malted barley flour in bread making?

Cheers
Keith Menefy
Hukerenui
New Zealand



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:11:53 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Unmalted wheat

In a message dated 11/24/1999 12:17:09 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high
 proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein
 soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments?
 
 Rgds and thanks again.
 
 Darren Robey >>

Belgian Wit is the only one that I am aware of.  I use whole wheat flour (not 
white) in mine.



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 07:10:00 -0500
From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com>
Subject: BT - Thanks Stephen Mallery

Hi all,

Well, it's not hard to get a lively discussion going on the HBD, that's for
sure.

I'd like to thank Stephen for his prompt reply.

While numerous people have e-mailed me about their BT experience, no word as
yet been given (that I've noticed) on any chance of a BT revival in any
form. Any comments?

It's been a waste land of beer reading these days. I want my, I want my, I
want my old BT. <sob> (Sung to the tune of "Money for Nothing". Sorry about
the irony)

Rob Jones,
Toronto


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:29:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Alan McKay <amckay at magma.ca>
Subject: Question on Welding Aluminum

Hi folks,

I'm posting this for a friend who doesn't have time to scan for answers.
But actually it applies to me as well, since I'm looking for the same thing.

Here's what he wrote :
First question, is: are there any rods that should not be
used to do this if it will be in contact with the wort, i.e. 
what should be used?  

Next question, I will be using a stainless steel ball valve 
screwed on there.  Does this pose a problem for galvanic 
corrosion since the threads will not necessarily be fully 
dried of wort between uses or does a little teflon tape 
suffice?  Should I be unscrewing it every time (or maybe
just at the end of the season for my summer hiatus), and 
if so, will the aluminum hold up?

thanks,
 -Alan

- --

                 "Brewers make wort.  Yeast Makes Beer."
                       - Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide
http://www.bodensatz.com/
What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 08:36:00 -0500
From: "Frank J. Russo" <FJRusso at coastalnet.com>
Subject: Rose hips

Okay, Mike (Bardallis)  now you have my curiosity up.  How does one process
Rose Hips to use in a mead?  You tell us it was a favorite but you failed to
describe it.  Come on you can do better.

Frank Russo
FJRusso at Coastalnet.com
"There is only one aim in life and that is to live it."


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 09:16:56 -0500
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Benzene and public safety

In HBD #3177, Dave Burley wrote:

- ---------------------------------------------------------

Unless I missed something, it has been only
proven so in specially selected, tumor
susceptible mice. But, he is right it is
*legally* a carcinogen.

- ----------------------------------------------------------

Isn't benzene one of those substances that is only a carcinogen in
California?

As in TV commercials that sometimes include the phrase:

"Substance xxx has been shown to be a carcinogen in California."  
 ..
 ..
 ..
 ..
 ..
 ...I not serious, just kidding about the wording used in the commercials.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 06:34:36 -0800
From: "Brian Dixon" <briandixon at home.com>
Subject: BT ... I'll miss it!

I can't say for sure, but I'll bet that the people at BT are probably not
getting much pay for the work they are doing to provide back issues.  The
head guy has already taken a different job at a different magazine.  MY
experience with the rag is that it warms my heart every time I think of it.
Name another magazine that was closer to the real brewing community.  Or
another that was willing to accept and publish articles from brewers at
large rather than just their "chosen few."  Or another that cared more about
the technology rather than sales figures from publishing cheap
attention-getting articles that repeat the same drivel over and over again
because they tend to increase sales from non-serious curious onlookers at
the local magazine stand: "Can you boil water!  You can make beer!" or "Make
your favorite beer cheaper than you can buy it!" etc.  I give BT my
perpetual thumbs-up and figure waiting on a back issue or two is no big deal
 ... how fast would you fill orders _after_ losing your job?  And BTW, before
anyone makes accusations about botched finances or mismanagement and what
not, I'd back it up with facts or don't bother.  The good people at BT don't
need the noise.

Brian



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:26:02 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: wheat

"Darren Robey" <drobey at awb.com.au> asks from down under:

>Next question would be are there any styles of beer that utilise high
>proportions of unmalted wheat. I take it we'd be looking at low protein
>soft white wheats rather than bread wheat. Any comments?

There are several reasons for prefering such wheat in my mind.  Soft wheat
is soft because of their protein - it is less glutenous (bad for bread,
good for cookies, biscuits, pie crusts, etc), which makes it, I feel,
better for brewing, also - less chance of a stuck mash.  It are also easier
to mill soft wheat.  Furthermore, soft wheat is typically lower in protein,
and since this is good in malting barleys, I think it must also be good in
wheat.  White wheat has white bran as opposed to red.  A quirk of wheat
genetics is that the gene for bran color is linked to the gene for bran
tannins and phenols, so white wheat is milder in flavor than red.  (I
understand that Nabisco uses almost entirely white wheat in shredded wheat
becuase of this).  Now I don't know if all of this or even any of this is
important, but I feel than my wits have a nicer character with soft white
winter wheat than with hard red.  This is what Hoegarten uses in Belgium,
but when Hoegarten founder Peter Celis came to the us (Texas) and started
his brewery, he used Texas hard red winter wheat.  Go figure.  I think it
must be a matter of using local produce.  texas hard wheat is lower in
protein and less glutenous than high plains hard spring wheat, however,
which is what is used to a high extent in bread flour.

I have no idea of the availability of any of these kinds of wheat in
Australia.  It seems to me it's all hard red.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:37:51 -0500
From: Paul Hausman <paul at lion.com>
Subject: Benzene: "Toxic" or "Non-Toxic"?

Just one more on the non-brewing topic (I hope).

In HBD # 3177 Dave Burley writes:
 >Page down if you don't want to read about
 >properly describing chemical dangers...
 >...Sorry for the rant...

Dave, it's either one or the other. You can't write
a scientific treatise and rant at the same time.

As a health & safety professional, I share your dislike of
extremist, sensationalist rants about "toxic chemicals".
However, non-specific dismissal of the hazards of materials
is at least as sensationalist and probably more irresponsible.
I've followed your posts in the past with great interest (your
knowledge of brewing and brewing chemistry is impressive),
and this is not your style.

Sorry for the rant.  Here's the data.  It was extracted from
Sax's Dangerous Properties of Industrial Materials.

CARCINOGENICITY?

 >Unless I missed something, it has been only
 >proven so in specially selected, tumor
 >susceptible mice. But, he is right it is
 >*legally* a carcinogen

I guess you must have.  (Unless you use the tobacco industry
definition of "proven".)  All national and international scientific
authorities have labeled benzene as a confirmed human
carcinogen or "sufficient evidence" human carcinogen This
includes the US National Toxicology Program and the
International Agency for Research on Carcinogens These
are scientists, not politicians.  They reach their conclusions
only after reviewing all available research and subjecting their
whole process to peer review. The result is a consensus of
the scientific community. According to them, Long term
chronic inhalation exposure to benzene has been clearly
linked to lymphomas, myeloid leukemia and Hodgkin's
disease.  This is the most serious health hazard benzene
poses.  Not that a single exposure should be feared, or
even multiple low-concentration exposures. (heck, every time
you fill your car with gas you get some minor exposure.)
But anyone using benzene should do so in a well ventilated
area and minimize the vapors he/she breaths.

TOXICITY

Benzene is not "drop dead if you see it" toxic. The lowest
reported LDLo for humans (the lowest dose that has actually
killed the MOST SENSITIVE human) is 50 mg/kg body weight.
This figure was reported in Pharmaceuticals Monthly. That
would be swallowing about 4 grams (a teaspoon or so)
for the average adult. Most people would be expected to have
a significantly higher tolerance than that. Not something to
fear, but don't lick your fingers after using it either, you might
get yourself sick. And certainly don't drink the stuff. But it
is highly volatile and unlikely to end up in your beer unless
you specifically put it there.

The lowest observed LCLo (lethal concentration in air)
for humans is 150 ppm. Again, a modest toxicity, but
not one to be dismissed.

 >This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's
 >stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system
 >of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice),
 >so we know where to spend our resources and
 >of what to be really careful. Let's not mix politics
 >and public safety as now happens - in spades.
 >
 >Every statement about chemical safety should
 >be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and
 >specially selected strains of hairless, poor
 >immune system mice... No studies of humans
 >were carried out".

Unless that's not the fact. In which case putting such
silly disclaimers in front of your warning would be
counterproductive.  I'd rather see a frank discussion
of the LEVEL of hazard rather than either:

    "run! run as fast as you can! Don't stop
                  and don't look back!"

                               or

      "I'm a chemist. I bathed in the stuff daily
   for 40 years and it hasn't effected me one bit."


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:35:28 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: further to open fermentation

Hi all,

Dave B. continues to claim that the problem with really open
fermentation is infection of the yeast. He uses two claims to back his
argument up: surface to volume ratio and the claim that open
fermentation is done in sealed rooms under positive pressure. First,
surface to volume ratio has *absolutely nothing to do* with whether the
*yeast on the surface* can get contaminated. In fact, it is just fog:
regardless of the surface to volume ratio the yeast is on top and
commercial fermenters have a much bigger surface area for contamination
to fall into. The simple fact is that Dave has provided no evidence to
support his claim that yeast heads on top of open fermenters get
contaminated. This seems to be case of common knowledge (protect your
yeast) leading to the assumption that there will be problem, regardless
of whether there is one. On the other hand, the *current* practices of
british and belgian commercial brewers and many homebrewers who open
ferment and top crop (harvest from the yeast head) is plenty of evidence
that he is completely mistaken. Dave goes on about these being
historical practices; this is just not true--many british breweries, for
example, open ferment *and* harvest and repitch the yeast from the yeast
head without contamination. The daily skimming of the yeast head that
some breweries practiced in the past is, by the way, evidence *against*
Dave's argument as by skimming the yeast they were not protecting the
yeast, but *exposing* the beer without harm! (By the way, Dave, if you
want to get some serious information on beer souring, have a look at the
appendix on soured beers in Wheeler and Protz's Brew Classic European
Beers at Home. It has absolutely nothing to do with 'contaminated' yeast
from open ferments.) Which brings me to point two: I've heard north
american homebrewers say many times that to open ferment you need sealed
rooms with positive pressure. Can anyone provide evidence that this is
what british and belgian brewers actually do? From what I've read and
seen they do no such thing. Try looking at some pictures of fermentation
rooms in british breweries. If you want to cover your ferment, by all
means do so, but there is no good reason to tell people their yeast will
be buggered if they don't.



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:42:27 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: decoctions, oops used the wrong word!

Hi all,

Marc's a little annoyed with what I wrote, I guess. I apologize for
sloppily using the wrong word. What I meant to say is to ask whether
decocting might lead to more difficult run offs with a lot of wheat due
to decoctions making the mash more *glutinous*. Sorry for saying
'gelatinising', which is, of course, the wrong word. The reason I asked
the question is having read the following in Wheeler and Protz, Brew
Classic European Beers..., 'Another problem with the decoction mash is
that the boiling can cause a glutinous mash that is difficult to run-off
and sparge, and requires a traditional type of lauter tun with a broad,
shallow grain bed for efficient sparging.'(p. 45)

cheers,



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 10:54:57 -0500
From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Russian Imperial Stout

Hi Everyone!

Does anyone know the russian cyrillic for "Russian Imperial Stout".  I am
currently working on my RIS label and want to use the cyrillic rather than the
English that any brewery producing the stuff would have used.-- Just my twist on
things.  Beer is pronounced Pivo but looks more like IINBO with a backwards N
Use a times roman font to get closer to what it looks like.

there is a web pronounciation guide at
http://www.visi.com/~swithee//dictionary/foods/drink/drink.html
it is interesting but limited.

Phil WIlcox
You can respond over the holidays to ThePFHB at aol.com

Happy Turkey Day!!!!!



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 11:13:42 -0500
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Ammonia/Yeast bite

RE Thomas Murray's comment on HCL: In neutralizing Hydrochloric acid why
fool with ammonia? Grocery store stuff is pretty weak and laboratory
strength is pretty nasty because of the vapor. Sodium bicarbonate
(Baking Soda) alone works just fine producing CO2 gas,  salt (sodium
chloride) and water as products. One pound will neutralize about 600 mL
of typical hardware store strength (8N) HCl. Of course lye (avaiable
from the hardware store) works very well at neutralizing HCL but lye is
pretty nasty too and its hard to tell when enough has been used. With
baking soda, you are finished when it quits fizzing. Another good choice
is chalk (calcium carbonate).

 * * * * * * * * ** * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
RE: Dave B's comment on "Yeast Bite": The last time I brewed I pitched
and went off to the airport expecting to be back in 4 days but didn't
get back for two weeks. During this time the kreuzen collapsed and all
that gradoo which normally gets skimmed fell back through the beer. This
beer definitely tasted funny at first and the funny quality was a sort
of coarse bitterness. The bitterness measured 36 BU. From the taste I
would have guessed it was   in the 50's though I knew this wasn't the
kind of bitterness I'd expect from EKG. The initial tasting samples
were filtered because there were bits of resin floating about in the
beer i.e. the harsh "bite" was present even in the filtered beer so it
can't  be attributed to yeast cells. Ninkasi be praised, this unpleasant
flavor  has evanesced and this ale is quite pleasant. Bottom line is
that I'm a believer - don't let the stuff fall through.


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:30:44 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Benzene as a  human carcinogen


Dave Burley wrote a lengthy post questioning whether benzene is a
carcinogen.

I just can't let this one slip by...

> "Benzene is a carcinogen"
> Unless I missed something, it has been only
> proven so in specially selected, tumor
> susceptible mice. But, he is right it is
> *legally* a carcinogen.

Yes you've apparently missed the vast amount of research done implicating
Benzene as a human carcinogen. Plenty of work has been done on this, very
little having to do with special strains of mice.

I just did a quick search of the research literature through the National
Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) and turned up over 900 papers
going back all the way to the late 60's. Apparently however, benzene was
first implicated as a human carcinogen (acute leukemia) as far back as
1928...

> In my own experience, benzene is not toxic in the
> sense I believe this word should be used. - that is
> poisonous and life threatening.

 There are varying degrees of poisoning, and exposure could be
life-threatening, just not immediately so. You can use these terms whatever
way you see fit but as for me, if something I'm exposed to can initiate a
cancer that will end up killing me in 20 to 30 years, that's still
life-threatening!

>As a chemist, I and
> millions of other chemists used to wash in this stuff
> and breathe it routinely.

But I doubt any reasonable chemists would do so today!
People used to believe smoking cigarrettes was actually good for them too...

>Chemists as a group have
> lower cancer rates than the general population, as
> do chemical workers.

But, this could easily be a red herring - maybe they die of other causes
before they develop cancer. There is also a phenomenon called the "Healthy
worker effect" that may come into play. They may be more closely monitored,
may be more highly educated or health conscious than the population at
large, etc...

Also, there are studies out there showing increased risks of cancer for
chemical workers. One study looking at benzene exposure found an increase in
the incidence of liver cancer, interestingly without any corresponding
increase in the incidence of cirrohsis.

>Maybe epidemiological
> studies on human populations are now available
> demonstrating the clear carcinogenicity of benzene.
> I have never seen them.

If you have access search the literature - they are out there in force.

> Let's clarify the information source and specify the
> effect so we can be better informed and not be
> continually ravaged by the words "toxic chemical"
> which has taken on emotional meanings in the
> media, because of the general non-understanding
> of the reporters and the need to make headlines. And
> their failure to understand what a toxin is.

Yes "let's" as in please give us YOUR sources which indicate that benzene is
not a human carcinogen!
Simply saying things like "Well, I breathed it in and washed in it but I
haven't got cancer" isn't good enough.

> I know of no human example in which cancer was
> caused by benzene.

Again, search the literature

> This doesn't mean we should be sloppy, but let's
> stop crying wolf and supporting a flawed system
> of evaluation of danger ( tumor susceptible mice),

Whoa! I'm the first to admit that the system isn't perfect but it aint that
shabby either. True, causing cancer in mice or rats isn't proof positive
that the same chemical will cause cancer in humans but it certainly raises a
lot of red flags!!

> Every statement about chemical safety should
> be prefaced by "In tumor susceptible mice and
> specially selected strains of hairless, poor
> immune system mice... No studies of humans
> were carried out".

No, because this just isn't true. In the case of benzene for example, there
are neumerous studies using normal mice and rats (and probably othere animal
models as well). In addition, epidemiologic evidence exists for human
exposure. Of course, human studies are difficult if not impossible to do.
However there are cases where people inadvertantly did studies on themselves
(accidental high exposures) and these cases give us information as well...

That rodents treated with benzene get cancer means that  /by definition/  it
is a carcinogen. There is sufficient epidemiological evidence to indicate
that benzene is also a  /human/  carcinogen. Many studies on humans have
shown increased levels of chromosome abnormalities in circulating white
blood cells associated with benzene exposure. Occupational epidemiologic
studies support a link between benzene exposure and certain leukemias as
well as pre-menopausal breast cancer in women.



 -Alan Meeker
 Baltimore,MD









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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:47:00 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Hoegaarden gone soft?!

Pat asks "has the Hoegaarden recipe been tampered 
with to make it sweeter, less acidic?!"

Frankly I've never perceived the level of acidity that has been discussed in
the homebrewing community in all the Hoegaarden I've had in Belgium.  I
wouldn't characterize them as "sweet" but neither would I characterize them
as sour or acidic.  Light, refreshing, some malt graininess.  Very low
hopping but the orange/corriander are not nearly as pronounced as many
homebrewers (and Blue Moon and Wit!) interpret the Wit to have.  Subtlety
would be the key word to describe the spicing.  I've often wondered if the
acidic character attributed to Wit (and often to Guinness) isn't just that
the beers have gone off a bit by the time they reach us locally?  Did this
acidity become a momily?  Hoegaarden in Brussels and Guinness in Dublin were
not, IMHO, acidic or sour at all.  



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:54:27 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: dry hopping with pellets

Actually I dry hop with pellets often.  No problems.  When dry hopping in a
seconday carboy, I just toss them in.  They settle out fine.  If I end up
fining, that just helps the settling.  I do have a fine mess stainless steel
screen on the end of my racking cane so that helps keep lots of stuff out of
the final beer.  I also dry hop in my serving keg.  In this case I made a
hop bag out of very fine "cheese-cloth" - actually it's not cheese-cloth but
some other material that's very fine.  That appears to work great.  



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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 12:14:38 -0600
From: "Luke Van Santen" <Luke.VanSanten at dot.state.mn.us>
Subject: Refrigerator Woes

Reefer dudes and/or dudettes -

I recently procured a refrigerator (a relatively recent model) from a 
neighbor. It worked quite well in his basement - he used it to store beer 
(gasp!) and other carbonated beverages. The freezer portion was used to 
store meat. He decided to get rid of it and asked if I wanted it (for free 
 - gasp! gasp!). So I took it.

While removing it from his basement, it was held nonvertical (from all the 
way on its side to vertical) for approx 1-2 minutes. While placing it in 
my basement, it was once again held nonvertical for approx 1-2 minutes as 
well as being slid on its side down my basement stairs (in a controlled 
manner - no free fall!). Between these nonvertical episodes, it sat 
upright in my garage for a month or so. 

When I plugged it in yesterday with a 14-2 wire extension cord I made 
expressly for this purpose (the refrigerator plug is only 2 prong - no 
ground prong), it coughed a couple of times and then started running The 
freezer got nice and cold within a couple of hours, but the refrigerator 
didn't and a wonderful electrical smell became evident. None of the 
cordage (extension or refrigerator's native) was warm to the touch.

My question (and fear) - did I get oil into the compressor and ruin this 
windfall? Is there something else to worry about from electrical components
 being out of whack from the various relocations?

Thanks for any help - if you don't think the collective will care, private 
reply is fine.

Luke Van Santen
St. Louis Park, MN

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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:28:00 -0800
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Hoegaarden

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Dave Houseman opines:

* Frankly I've never perceived the level of acidity that has been discussed 
in the homebrewing community in all the
* Hoegaarden I've had in Belgium.  I wouldn't characterize them as "sweet" 
but neither would I characterize them as
* sour or acidic.  Light, refreshing, some malt graininess.  Very low 
hopping but the orange/corriander are not nearly as
* pronounced as many homebrewers (and Blue Moon and Wit!) interpret the Wit 
to have.

Dave! I'm offended! Blue Moon and "Wit!"?! Please. No, I base my comments 
on past experience with Hoegaarden - albeit imported lending credence to 
your "perhaps gone off" comment. And if I were to compare it to anything 
domestic, it would be Celis White - theoretically the same beer by the same 
brewer. At least very similar. In comparison to my last Celis White, this 
beer is almost...

 ...insipid. I did not suggest that Hoegaarden was as acidic as, say, a good 
gueuze; however, I've always been able to detect a light, refreshing 
tartness. This tartness was not apparent in this last sample. Depressing. 
Could it have simply been a fresher sample, as Dave suggests? Perhaps. But 
then why wouldn't a fresh Celis White demonstrate the same lack of 
character?

 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.com
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."


- ------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 13:13:16 -0500
From: "Weaver T. Capt - 43MDG/SGOAM" <Todd.Weaver at pope.af.mil>
Subject: Help With Cloning

1.)	I am a fan of Belgian Wits, and have brewed 3 very nice batches.
However, I can not find an ingredient called "grains of paradise."  What is
"grains of paradise", where can I find it, or what substitute can be used?
2.)	While in San Antonio, I was delighted to find Young's Double
Chocolate Oatmeal Stout on tap.  Anyone have a good clone brew recipe?  Does
it call for lactose?  What kind of chocolate?


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