---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  #1-Ammonia vs. baking soda #2-Holy misinformation, Batman (ThomasM923)
  same jerk, different attitude (re BT) (Dick Dunn)
  Re: RIMS overheat fail-safe (The Holders)
  An elementary but important yeast question... ("Aaron Gallaway")
  Difco Bacto-Agar ("Dan Kiplinger")
  Brew Pubs In Perth ("Phil and Jill Yates")
  wyeast 1214 vs 1762 (Kevin TenBrink)
  Yes,yes, yes it's all true, Barley malt bread, Al (Dave Burley)
  Boilover prevention (Demonick)
  Reducing Beer: an OChem Question (Kevin Riutort)
  Re Water Treatment (JohnT6020)
  re: RIMS fail-safe (The Holders)
  Dave's Benzene Habit (Bob Sutton)
  Pete's Winter Brew (Clark)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 00:09:35 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: #1-Ammonia vs. baking soda #2-Holy misinformation, Batman

#1-
A. J. deLange questioned my choice of ammonia over baking soda for 
neutralizing acidic solutions. I have a number of reasons. They are as 
follows:
1) Add baking soda, watch solution foam up, wait for foam to subside.
2) Add baking soda, watch solution foam up, wait for foam to subside.
3) Add baking soda, watch solution foam up, wait for foam to subside.
4) Add baking soda, watch solution foam up, wait for foam to subside...;~)

Ammonia, even the grocery store stuff, is very basic. It will neutralize an 
acidic solution very quickly, while baking soda in a solution is fairly 
neutral so it takes a lot more patience to arrive at the same result. And 
everybody has some some ammonia hanging around. It's there, under your sink, 
right next to the Drano and the Bon Ami.

#2-
Having said that, I have to admit that I should check out my claims 
- ---before--- I post to the HBD. I stated in my last post that once an acidic 
solution is neutralized with ammonia, it will turn a bluish color. Well, that 
is what happens with nitric acid, but I found that hydrochloric acid does not 
undergo a color change. 

Yours, somewhat humbled,


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Date: 25 Nov 99 22:28:05 MST (Thu)
From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: same jerk, different attitude (re BT)

I apologize for my outburst about Brewing Techniques in HBD 3176.  Regard-
less of how strongly I felt and/or whether there was any justification for
being angry, it was an unacceptable display of temper.  By way of terse ex-
planation (but *not* thereby attempting to defend my posting) I will say
that once in a while, a problem in one part of one's life spills over into
another part.

Let me say that I now accept that the BT folks *are* trying to do The Right
Thing.  The emotion in my posting was out of line.  I had some reasons for
concern, which I will try to explain here.

It was over two and a half months from when BT announced its shut-down and
had offered subscribers compensation, to when people started asking, "Ummm,
hey, I haven't heard anything...have you?"  Yes, I realize that it takes
time to shut down a business, and it is usually a tangled, complicated,
gut-wrenching experience (all the more so if--as with BT--the people have
a personal interest in the nature of the business).  No, I would not expect
a business to be wrapped up in under three months.  But I *would* expect
some communication during the process...if for no other reason than that if
it gets quiet for an extended period of time, people start to think the
worst.  We heard that BT was going under; we heard about possibilities that
it would be acquired, or part of it would go electronic, or whatever...and
then...*nothing* for over two months and even then only in reply to a query.
BT had an easy way to reach a lot of people to tell them what was going
on, via the HBD.  A simple "hey, we're working on it" or "we've hit a
snag..." would have done wonders.

I'm glad to see that some folks *are* getting their back issues.  I'd read
and heard from folks who weren't.  I heard from someone who was entitled to
eight but got two with no other explanation.  But if the process is still
under way, that's good, and I will believe that it's working.

Virtually everybody who dealt with BT respected the magazine they put out.
However, if you weren't close to the people involved, you couldn't judge
anything about the business side of it.  What I saw was that a good maga-
zine went along for about six years (very respectable duration), but there
were a couple of hiccups in publication, and the last issue was produced in
full slick-color-cover style.  This wasn't consistent with a magazine in a
long slow decline, where you would have expected measures to reduce costs
while maintaining content.  But here I'm only expressing serious puzzlement.
I'd be out of place to second-guess Mallery on what he was dealing with,
and he owes us no explanation!...he's got enough to deal with.  I just
don't understand how the magazine keeps coming out until it hits a brick
wall, instead of trying to ramp down and adapt.

I watched the American Mead Association, and its publication _Inside_Mead_,
fail.  Now, it went in a very different way--its preceptor died in a car
crash and her successor drained off all the money and vanished.  But the
consequences of that failure are that the mead-making community *still*
doesn't have either an organization or a hard-copy publication, nearly four
years after the demise of the AMA.  I am [over]sensitive to the effect of
a failing publication on the community it serves, and I am concerned that
the demise of BT is going to have a serious adverse effect on homebrewing.

BT offered its subscribers 3 options:  take back issues, forgive the debt,
or hold out for some refund.  This set me on edge from the first day I saw
it.  Obviously the best deal is the back issues, but that's the least
interesting to a charter subscriber--i.e., the person who supported them
right from the start, when they were the biggest risk.  Forgiving the debt
is an act of charity, but charity and business don't mix well in this way.
(I have business losses too, but I don't get to ask anybody else to help
pay them.  One wrong weather guess in '96 cost me $3000+ on a crop.  So
it's not that I couldn't afford $45 to BT; it's that I can't see why I have
to pay for my own risk-losses *and* somebody else's as well.)  I wonder if
the "forgive the debt" option was worth, in $, what it may have cost, in
good will.
- ---
Dick Dunn          rcd at talisman.com          Hygiene, Colorado  USA


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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 22:43:42 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS overheat fail-safe

Jonathan asks about RIMS overheat failsafes.

Most PID controllers have built in alarms. Depending on the location of
your probe, you could use a high limit N.C. (Normally closed) to drive a
secondary switching device. Run your control circuit in series through
the secondary switching device, and then to the primary switching
device.

Ideally you would latch in the alarm condition, otherwise you would only
oscillate the condition.

I would think that having the probe in the wort stream on the chamber
outflow, and also having the exit lower than the entrance should work. 

Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA


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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:25:24 PST
From: "Aaron Gallaway" <baseball_junkie at hotmail.com>
Subject: An elementary but important yeast question...

Dear fellow beerians,


     Despite having subscribed and read avidly for the past 4 months, this 
is my first post. I am an Enlgish teacher in Japan and have been all-grain 
brewing for about a year now. I read voraciously and have learned nearly 
everything I know about brewing(which I have learned over the last 4 months 
of reading HBD is NOT very much) from the books and internet articles I have 
read. I have nothing but success with culturing Wyeast in Test tubes. I have 
settled for for steeping them up only one in 500 ml of wort in 100 ml 
flasks. I generally do two at the same time and have had very low lag 
times(never more than 8-12 hrs from pitching.)
     As I am a bit of a perfectionist I was hoping that someone could stoop 
down to my lowly brewing level and take a few minutes to explain in detail 
their procedure from Test tube to pitching, of stepping up their cultures. I 
am interested in starter wort recipes, sterility procedures, wort amounts, 
and length of time between step ups and so on. Thankyou very for time and 
efforts. Please feel free to mail me personally at 
baseball_junkie at hotmail.com




Thanks for all your help everyone, and beery Christams and a hoppy 
holidays:)

                                    the man from Japan
                                    Aaron

______________________________________________________


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 06:16:58 -0500
From: "Dan Kiplinger" <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Difco Bacto-Agar

Question to the collective:

I have some Difco Bacto-Agar that is from 1981.  Is it worth using or should
I trash it and buy some new agar.

Also, I am using Difco "Bacto - Fluid Sabouraud Medium (Dehydrated)" as my
cultivating medium for yeast.  I have read that people are using plain-old
DME.  Is the FSM better (or worse)?

Dan, half-way between Chicago and Difco Laboratories, Detroit MI



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Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 00:07:59 +1100
From: "Phil and Jill Yates" <yates at infoflex.com.au>
Subject: Brew Pubs In Perth

Darren Robey asks the question

>I'm going to be in Perth in the next few weeks and was >wonderingif anyone
>knew of any brew pubs or the like worth a visit.

Darren,
Try the "Sail and Anchor" in Fremantle. Peter Nolan is the head brewer there
and a few of his brews are well worth trying.

And he doesn't use a Valley Mill
And he doesn't use a JS Mill either

But he makes good beer anyway.

Cheers
Phil


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 06:07:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin TenBrink <zzymurgist at yahoo.com>
Subject: wyeast 1214 vs 1762

Greetings-

I recently brewed a batch of beer using Belgian Abbey
Ale yeast.  My problem is in my notes I forgot to
indicate which one it was.  Are there specific
fermentation characteristics or flavor components that
I could look for in the fermenting beer to help
identify which strain I used?

Thanks for any help!
Kevin
Elkhart IN

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:15:39 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yes,yes, yes it's all true, Barley malt bread, Al

Brewsters:

I knew that!

It's November 19 th, November 19th,
November 19th...

As James Jerome and others have 

indicated, I was just testing to see if HBDers
were paying attention on the Odd Day comment.  


Or maybe it was a trypo. Naaaah.

Thanks for all your e-mail! {8^)
- ------------------------------------------
Keith Menfy asks if anyone has tried
malted barley flour in bread making.
Barley malt extract and malted barley
is a common addition to bread, but
only in small quantities.

I would imagine if you made bread 

with pure malted barley flour as the only
ingredient it wouldn't rise, as it has no
gluten and since the enzymes would
liquefy the barley  starch, you would
As did the Egyptians. Thank goodness!
- -----------------------------------------
Alan is concerned about galvanic
corrosion and wonders if he should
unscrew the SS valve he has tapped
into his Aluminum piece.

I'd be more concerned about biological
contamination, depending on where this
ball valve is located and unscrew and
clean and dry it. Threads and washers 

make a great hiding place for microbiologicals.
I would guess this could be a glavanic
problem as well, since they are
dissimilar metals, at least theoretically,
John W. probably actually knows the
answer to this corrosion question.
- ----------------------------------------
C. Moore resident Alaskan Maltster
determines his moisture content by
classical means of weighing and
drying a sample of malt, adn asks for
comments on his procedure. My first 

comment is that you should dry this
sample at nearer boiling to avoid 

any decomposition. Secondly,
I would compare a long ( say overnight)
drying with your 90 minute one. I 

will bet 90 minutes is not enough.

Perhaps more importantly, when I
malt, I tie up some grain in a cheesecloth
bag and weigh it. This goes through the 

entire process in this bag which is mixed
with the rest of the barley and gets
weighed periodically. Since you
know the original weight, you can
quickly and easily calculate water
content. Fast and with no drying. You
can even use multiple bags if you
want to see dispersion of your results and
to crosscheck your current technique.
- ---------------------------------------------
Regarding the inquiry as to AlK's silence.
I had an e-mail chat with Al Korzonas the 

other day, inquiring into what was going 

on in his life besides changing diapers
on his tripplets (sic).  Briefly, his comment
was that his kids were more work than either
he or his wife ever imagined, but they
wouldn't change their minds. Clearly, he
has been nearly overwhelmed with start-up
efforts, but I'm sure his load is easing.

He hopes to begin brewing again in early 

December. Hope we hear from him around
then.

Keep on Brewin'



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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 07:39:42 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Boilover prevention

Like "Humphrey,Patrick" <patrick.humphrey at abbott.com> and his brewing 
stones, I have posted this in the past.

Rip the plastic liners out of 5 or 6 used bottle caps and use them as
boiling stones.

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 10:46:12 -0500
From: Kevin Riutort <kevin at veng.com>
Subject: Reducing Beer: an OChem Question

In organic chemistry one learns that alcohols are readily oxidized into
aldehydes, ketones and carboxylic acids (all things that give off
flavors to beer).  Aldehydes, and carboxylic acids can be reduced back
into primary alcohols using a reducing agent such as NaBH4
(sodiumborohydride) or LiAlH4 (Lithiumaluminumhydride).

Does anyone know of any research into "treating" a bad batch of beer
with a reducing agent in an attempt fix off flavors (NB: I'm not
suggesting that this is a substitute for good brewing technique, I'm
just curious about the chemistry).

I don't think that NaBH4 or LiAlH4 would be good things to injest but
there are probably some other reducing agents/hydrogen nucleophiles that
are not toxic.

- --
***************************
Kevin Riutort




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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 12:04:28 EST
From: JohnT6020 at aol.com
Subject: Re Water Treatment

Flossmoor  IL  99-11-26  at  1037 CST

Mike asked how to treat water with Mn and Fe:

<< 
 Help, my well water has Iron and Manganese. My few brewing books say these
 are both bad for brewing, but don't describe a way to clean them up. Anyone
 out there have a good reference or a specific remedy? Meanwhile, I'm brewing
 with jug water. >>

I can vouch for the iron making bad tasting water and bum beer.  Iron can be 
eliminated with Potassium Permanganate.  Make a solution of this and keep it 
in a dropper bottle.  It will be an intense purple.  Add this drop by drop to 
your water to be treated until a faint pink color remains.  The iron compound 
will precipitate.  Let it settle and decant the clear water or filter to 
remove the precipitate.

Good luck.

73,


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:35:07 -0800
From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com>
Subject: re: RIMS fail-safe

My last post should have read: Run your *power* (not control) circuit in
series through
the secondary switching device, and then to the primary switching
device.

Secondary switching of the power circuit would be needed if the overheat
is caused by the primary control failing to open.



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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:01:59 GMT
From: Bob.Sutton at Fluor.com (Bob Sutton)
Subject: Dave's Benzene Habit

While benzene may not be immediately "life threatening and poisonous",
you're ignoring the long-term risks. I too, used benzene and
acrylonitrile to wash tools and clean out carburetors (ok - that dates
me pretty well), and I'm still alive - YMMV - but I recognized the
potential hazard, and reduced my exposure accordingly.

Dave, it's not worth the risk... when you're gone who will be around
to champion garbage pail fermentation and Clinit*st ;-)

I'll bet you smoke too... hey... I've never seen anyone keel over from
a drag...

Bob
Fruit Fly Brewhaus
Yesterdays' Technology Today

PS: in any case benzene is not present in dry ice to any greater
extent than it is in the air we breathe.

>Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 14:32:47 -0500
>From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
>Subject: Benzene and public safety
>
>In my own experience, benzene is not toxic in the
>sense I believe this word should be used. - that is
>poisonous and life threatening. 


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Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 23:48:05 -0500
From: Clark <clark at capital.net>
Subject: Pete's Winter Brew

	
Hi List,

Does anyone out there have an extract clone recipe for Pete's Winter Brew?
It is an amber ale with raspberry and nutmeg.  Very tasty and a beer that
my wife enjoys drinking.  TIA.

Dave Clark


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