---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  tannins/GM food/France/yeast/La Chouffe (B.R. Rolya)
  6th Annual Boston Homebrew Competition!! (Timothy Holland - Supply Program Manager)
  RE:Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging (Bob Sheck)
  makin' hot sauce (Bret Morrow)
  Re:The Valley Mill (Joseph Kish)
  Re; Specific Gravity/Hop Loss (William Frazier)
  He Should Have Been A Homebrewer! ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Hop Bitterness with long CF wait ("Paul Smith")
   ("Denise Walker")
  Re: Beer in the regulator ("Mike Maag")
  Brewing water pH (John Wilkinson)
  beer in co2 regulator ("Charles Walker")
  Re: B Brite (RobertJ)
  Re: Early Racking (KMacneal)
  Re: Hop Loss (KMacneal)
  Re: Munich malt (David Cato)
  Re: how do you measure the last runnings? (Jeff Renner)
  Brewing all-grain after work (Calvin Perilloux)
  Is Propylene Glycol safe to drink? (KKrist)
  Carrot beer, oversparging ("Richard Thomas")
  RE: cleaning regulator (Tidmarsh Major)
  Shipping CO2 tank (AlannnnT)
  barley wine carbonating (AlannnnT)
  Paulner clone (BIL2112L)
  Play nice boys (AlannnnT)
  carl strauss cream ale recipe (J Daoust)
  re: how do you measure the last runnings? (David Lamotte)
  Ozzie Brew Kettles (David Lamotte)
  Points lost to hops ("Fred L. Johnson")
  re: Real CP Fillers vs "El Cheapo" CP Fillers (Mark Tumarkin)
  Canadian Amateur Brewers Association Competition - March In Montreal ("Rob Jones")


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 17:26:33 -0500 (EST)
From: br at interport.net (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: tannins/GM food/France/yeast/La Chouffe


I'm just catching up on several weeks worth of hbds since returning from 2
holiday trips, but thought I'd throw in my proverbial 2 cents on a few
topics (some of which probably have run their course...)

re: tannins
My anecdotal experience supports the already cited sources that say that
wort below 1.010 has increased tannins.  To me, wort that is above 1.010
tastes like sweet wort while wort below that often tastes distinctly like a
tannic tea.  I periodically sample the runoff and sometimes I find that the
wort even at 1.020 is too tannic - IMO - to continue with the runoff while
other times runoff below 1.010 appears somewhat tannic but not heavily so
(although I stop the runoff by that point regardless).  (In my opinion, a
good example of a tannic tea is Tetley's.  Let that sit for 10 minutes and
taste the tannins!  For an even more extreme (or should that be 'x-treme'?)
example, the most tannic tea I have ever tried is Sultane from Mariage
Freres; one minute of steeping provides an incredibly bitter and tannic tea
which tastes like ... a stronger version of diluted wort.)

- ------
re: GM foods
Yes, it's a heated issue.  Yes, everyone has their own reason for accepting
or not choosing GM foods.  And most of the posts against GM foods
illustrate my position and I don't need to reiterate those points.  But,
unknowingly, Dave Burley's support of GM foods by comparing them to bovine
growth hormone illustrates my point exactly of why I would NOT use GM foods
for eating or brewing.  There is already a milk surplus in the US and there
is no need to give cows growth hormone to produce even more.  rBGH has been
proven (don't have sources in front of me, but can get if requested) to
cause irritated and infected udders and other problems in cows which
require antibotics which are passed out of the cow through the milk.  And I
certainly don't want that in my dairy products.  GM foods present the same
problem.  Aside from agro-business, genetic manipulation, and taste issues,
there is the concern that pests will develop resistance to the pesticides
in the plants such as BT,  resulting in the need for even stronger
pesticides which end up in my food, and so the circle continues...

Just because something is naturally occuring doesn't mean that it is safe
at increased levels (think body-builders and steroids).

This is completely anecdotal, but there was an article on GM potatoes in
the "New York Times Magazine" several months (perhaps even a year) ago.
The journalist sat down to lunch with a farmer and his family and asked if
the potatoes he was being served were the GM potatoes that the farmer grew.
The farmer responded that there was absolutely no way that he would feed
them to his family and therefore kept a personal non-GM potato plot for his
own personal use.

- -----
re:  The French
I am not French, nor do I have any affiliations with France (except for a
love for their wines, cheeses, and breads).  But in their defense, I must
say that they make some mighty fine beer.  Saying, as Dave Burley does, "If
you have ever tasted French beer, you may now understand why it tastes like
crap" is akin to saying that all American beer is crap because you've only
tried mass-market mega brews.  Northern France makes some outstanding beers
 - most of which you can't buy outside of the town of origin (yes, it's
close to Belgium, but it's still France) and a friend has brought me back
some interesting and flavorful beers from Corsica.  Just because they've
concentrated on wine doesn't mean that they can't make good beer.

- ------
re: Munich Lager yeast
Darrell asks about a spicy note in a beer fermented with Munich lager yeast
(and AJ confirms a spicy presence).  I use Munich Lager yeast quite
frequently in my biere de garde (hey - that's a french style!), intially
fermenting at 70 degrees for a few days before slowly bringing the
temperature down to lagering temperature.  This gives the beer a nice
fruity/estery character with some spicy undertones, but I wouldn't say it's
"distinctively spicy".  Then again, the additional 10 degrees might bring
out more esters to cover the spiciness.  Perhaps the hop variety is also a
contributing factor?

- -----
re:  Montreal/La Chouffe

I was up in Canada for New Year's and picked up a few bottles of Cheval
Blanc's La Chouffe beer.  The label says that Cheval Blanc has licensed the
beer from Achouffe and I was wondering if anyone knew if this is just a
special/one-time beer or if Cheval Blanc is now producing La Chouffe for
the Canandian (or even North American) market?



 - BR Rolya
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
New York, NY
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2000 18:12:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Timothy Holland - Supply Program Manager <tholland at tunnel.East.Sun.COM>
Subject: 6th Annual Boston Homebrew Competition!!

All,

The Boston Wort Processors are pleased to announce the Sixth Annual
BOSTON HOMEBREW COMPETITION to be held on February 19, 2000 in Boston
Mass!  This competition is sponsored and run by the Boston Wort
Processors.  ALL BJCP STYLES WILL BE JUDGED INCLUDING MEADS AND
CIDERS!  Entry deadline has been set as February 12th and all entries
should be received at the respective dropoff sites or mail-to location
by this date unless alternate arrangements have been made with the
competition organizer.

This competition will again be the northeast region Qualifying Event
for the 3rd year of the Masters Championship of Amateur Brewing (MCAB)
Competition (see http://www.hbd.org/mcab for details and MCAB 3
qualifying sub-styles).  This competition is also part of the New
England Homebrewer of the Year series.  We draw many Master and
National rank BJCP judges to this competition each year and promise a
professionally run competition with feedback for all entries!

All of the information anyone needs to enter the competition or to
judge in the competition can be found at http://www.wort.org,
including entry forms, bottle labels, judge registration forms,
drop-off and mail-to info, etc.  We encourage everyone who is
interested in this competition to obtain information through the
website.  For those of you who don't have web access, e-mail myself
(Tim Holland, tim.holland at east.sun.com) with your e-mail and/or
snail-mail address info and I will get you the required information
ASAP.  Spread the word!!


Cheers and Happy Brewing!!

Tim Holland
Organizer for the 2000 Boston Homebrew Competition (BHC2000)
tim.holland at east.sun.com
781-442-2022 (w), 508-835-2686 (h)
Surf to http://www.wort.org for all details!!





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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 20:42:00 -0500
From: Bob Sheck <bsheck at skantech.net>
Subject: RE:Inconsistent carbonation, Kegging

Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
details his method of priming bottles and kegging
beer- 

I would like to add a few thoughts-

Bottling: if you do use a bottling bucket- boil the sugar/water
(or DME or extract of your choice and water) and pour
this in the bottom of the bottling bucket first. Then
lay your siphoning hose so it will allow the wort to
circulate in a counter-clockwise direction (Unless you're
in Oz or otherwise on the Southern side of the equator).

Now-a-days, I counter-pressure fill off the keg. 

I know several homebrewers who use a corny for a bottling bucket
and use enough CO2 to push the primed beer into the bottle.
This is a method I leaerned form the proprietor of The Flying
Barrel Brew-on-Premises in Frederick MD. No muss-no fuss.

This will perform a good mix of the prime and fermented wort.

Kegging: do as Dave sez- the additional step I use is to
bubble CO2 in through the dispense tube- this helps dissolve
it and also creates lots of foam- which I vent out the safety
valve thus purging as much oxy as I think possible.

A word of warning- Make damn sure you use a hose clamp on the
connections of your gas- Once I forgot and had a stream of
precious homebrew shoot across my kitchen and out into the
dining room! Hahahaha! Lucky I didn't have carpets, and (at the
time) 2 thirsty Great Danes that helped in the cleanup!


Bob Sheck

bsheck, me-sheck, abednigo! Greenville, NC 
email:bsheck at skantech.net or see us at:
http://www.skantech.net/bsheck/
(252)830-1833
- -------------
"Madness takes its toll -- Please have exact change!"
- -------------


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Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:31:36 -0500
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net>
Subject: makin' hot sauce

Greetings,

Since this is now a forum for only non brewing issues.  I thought I'd
ask a question sort of related to brewing.  Among my Christmas presents,
I found a "Hot Sauce Kit."  Since I already brew beer, I am expecting 12
fertilized chicken eggs and an incubator next year!  Has anyone here
tried making hot sauce?  Any info would be helpful--it seems very
straight forward, but if someone has tried it and has any suggestions,
I'm all ears!

TIA

Bret Morrow
Hamden, CT



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Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2000 19:26:14 -0800
From: Joseph Kish <jjkish at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:The Valley Mill

To all the people that responded to my Valley Mill question;
 Thank You All!  That was just what I needed.

 I bought one!  I also bought the 170 RPM GE Gear Motor ($25)
that connects direct to the shaft with a $5.00 rubber coupling
from Surplus Center 1-800-488-3407.   P/N is 5-1098.

 I found out that the Valley Brewers supply Co. has replacement
ball bearing end plates for brewers to modernize older Valley Mills.
 
 I can hardly wait for it to arrive! It will double my brewing
pleasure.  Thanks again.
    Joe Kish


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 07:21:14 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re; Specific Gravity/Hop Loss 

Bryan Gros asks "how do you measure the last runnings?"

I have a hand held refractometer that I originlly bought to measure sugar in
some grapes I grow.  Some time ago I started using it in brewing beer and
did some side-by-side tests using the refractometer and narrow-range
hydrometers to measure specific gravity at various stages in the sparge.
Data correlated quite well so now I take all in-process sparge SG
measurements with the refractometer.  My mash tun has a convenient drip in
the ball valve so when the sparge nears end point I just catch that drip
with the refractometer and take a reading.  Takes about 10 seconds.  I still
use the narrow-range hydrometers for OG and FG readings.

Brian Dixon discusses "hop loss"

Brian had a kettle SG of 1.122 but after racking to the primary and "topping
off to 5 gallons" the SG had dropped to 1.103.  There is no reason to
believe the SG would have been less than 1.122 in the primary if Brian had
not topped off the wort to 5 gallons.  It's a shame to lose wort to hop
dregs but it happens.  In any given recipe the weight of hops depends on the
%AA so from batch to batch, of the same recipe, the weight of hops will
vary.  The volume of wort trapped in the hops will also vary.

I don't top up batches any more.  I calculate a 5 gallon recipe and brew a 6
gallon version of that recipe.  I use a fixed starting volume (sparge plus
extra brewing water as needed) in the kettle so that, after a 75 minute
boil, I end up with 6 gallons.  I run the cooled wort off to a large,
calibrated settling carboy and measure volume.  The wort is aerated in the
settling carboy and is left to settle for several hours.  I squeeze the wort
dregs out of the wet hops and measure this volume.  I add these two volumes
together and compare to the expected 6 gallons.  Results are fairly
consistent (+-1 quart).  In the past I  planned these brews to come up short
on "total boiled volume" and I would top up in the settling carboy with
pre-boiled water to make 6 gallons.  Now days I don't do that, trying to
keep the system as closed as possible.  I brew in the basement and there are
lots of organisms floating around-lost a batch a while back to some stray
bug.  Using this approach the OG is a function of extraction in the mash and
the hop bitterness is based on a known volume.  If hop bitterness is not
what I expect I can make changes knowing the actual volume of boiled wort. 

After the cold break has settled I pump the clear wort into the fermentor
and pitch yeast.  I don't always have the same starting volume in the
primary since the hop dregs and settled trub will vary.  But, since I brew a
6 gallon version of my recipe I always have at least 5 gallons of wort to
ferment.

        Bill Frazier
        Johnson County, Kansas












Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:07:26 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: He Should Have Been A Homebrewer!

I don't wish to bore you all fartless by going on and on about this new big
garage of mine but one thing I forgot to mention was that the guy who built
this place included a bathroom (do motor cars pee in the night?) This serves
as a "wet area" in the brewing process and I have to say I don't know how I
ever did without one. Washing down of most equipment is done in the shower.
I don't want to drive Kyle Druey into a frenzy with visions of me with my
leather apron and rubber boots on standing in the shower but what a boon to
the brew day.

I have to be honest and admit that by the time I mucked about and got
everything cleaned up and neatly packed away, brew day was getting on for
seven hours. Now it takes me less than five! And I am fairly anal retentive.
Regan would suggest compulsive. Any guy who tackles two acres of lawn with
his push mower and finishes after the sun goes down would have to be that!
Sorry, another story completely.

And I am sorry I have upset Eric over the Lake Michigan thing, he won't talk
to me anymore. Upset or shocked I am not sure, hell it sure looked like the
ocean. And Jeff Renner wasn't very happy about it either, thank heavens I
didn't call them Southerners!!

Steve A here is the post you have been waiting for:

     5 hours divided by 7 hours times 100 tells me my pre-wet area time
efficiency was about 71.428%.

In real terms this means I am all finished and washed up and ready to start
mowing the lawn by lunchtime. Hell, Jill has only just got out of bed!

Cheers
Phil




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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 05:11:08 -0600
From: "Paul Smith" <pksmith_morin at msn.com>
Subject: Hop Bitterness with long CF wait

William asks about a perceived hop bitterness from a longer wait in this
kettle due to a slow CF chiller transfer.

I can tell you that at the brewery where I worked (Goose Island) they put the
greatest portion of their hops in the whirlpool, with only a minimal
contribution made at the beginning of the boil (5#/50 bbls at the beginning v.
44# at knockout).  They achieve 22% utilization from the whirlpool alone,
confirmed by spect. analysis.  Thus, their late hops contribute a great deal
of bitterness, and their beers have a tremendous amount of hop character.

William, it seems most likely to me that your late hops are giving you the
additional bitterness.  Great!  Your kettle hops are probably not contributing
much more (the IBU contribution from additions made 30-60 minutes is greater
than from 60-90 minutes; the additional time in the whirlpool is contributing
even incrementally less).  Something you might want to try would be to pull
back on your kettle hops until you are happy with the bitterness, allowing
your late additions to do double duty - contribute IBUs as well as aromatic
oils for flavor and aroma.

BTW, does anyone have any data on isomerization and temperature?  A program I
use and enjoy very much (Promash - standard disclaimers apply, no connections,
etc.) does not account for IBU contributions by hop additions made at
knockout, but the program's author is willing to consider putting in a
time/temp field for post-boil additions, if we could get the data.

Finally, I am glad this is a pluralist and democratic forum.  But let's drop
the crap and get back to the science, practice, and enjoyment  of beer.
Otherwise new folks might just think we're a vitriolic, pugnacious and
generally childish lot more concerned with the sound of our own biting on a
myriad of completely unrelated topics than the propagation of truth.

Which I know we're not.

And I was born Boyer, and French wines are still les plus magnifiques du
monde!...so na-na-na-na-na.

Cheers!
Paul




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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 08:02:35 -0500
From: "Denise Walker" <denise1 at dixie-net.com>
Subject: 

Hi,
Just joined the list and would love to get a few hints for brewing my first
batch. I really want to try a stout first, but am unsure of everything I
need to start, equipment, kits, etc.
Thanks for in help to this newbie.

Denise Walker
denise1 at dixie-net.com
Get paid to surf the Web!!! Click below and then click join!
http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=EEL-575



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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:28:42 -0500
From: "Mike Maag" <maagm at rica.net>
Subject: Re: Beer in the regulator

Gary says:  I was horrified to see the beer go up the gas tube 
and start bubbling out of my regulator.
My question is, is my regulator ruined?  I would assume it would be a
constant source of infections, so I have planned on scrapping it.>>>

Just a data point, I did the same thing about 2 years ago.
I turned up the CO2 flow to about 40 psig and blew out what I could.
I have force carbonated many kegs since then and have had no
noticable infections.  I did install an in-line check valve tho'

Cheers!

Mike Maag, in the Shenanhoah Valley, VA.



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Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 08:53:14 -0600
From: John Wilkinson <jandjwilkins at earthlink.net>
Subject: Brewing water pH

Alan Meeker wrote:

>If your brewing water is close to the
>oft quoted optima of 5.2 - 5.5 then the mash has a great capacity to "set
>itself" into the correct range due primarily to the reaction of  malt
>phosphate compounds and metal ions in the water - especially calcium and
>magnesium.

I guess I am a bit confused here.  I thought optimal MASH pH was
5.2-5.5, not
the brewing water.  My brewing water is <7 and my mash pH is usually on
the low
the
pH up to the minimum recommended.  If the brewing water is 5.2-5.5 won't
the
reactions in the mash bring it below that?

John Wilkinson - Grapevine, Texas


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 09:16:34 -0600
From: "Charles Walker" <charlybill at xpressway.net>
Subject: beer in co2 regulator

**My question is, is my regulator ruined?  I would assume it would be a
constant source of infections, so I have planned on scrapping it.  Is
there anything I can do to clean it?  If not, does anyone have a use
for a contaminated regulator?**
  I too had a homebrew backflow into my co2 regulator without a checkvalve.
I disassembled the regulator, cleaned it with hot soapy water, rinsed and
dryed. Reassembled and it has been working fine for several years since.
Charlie




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Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 10:42:08 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: B Brite

ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com> wrote

I contacted Crosby and Baker just last week about this.  Without
ruffling feathers by posting his response, Seth Schnider
<mailto:CBLtd at att.net> reported to me that B Brite is also a sanitizer
but because of FDA regs. about certification and the cost involved, they
only market it as a cleaner even thought it also has sanitative qualities.
 - -- 

This came up several years ago on HBD.

I appreciate the cost of FDA registration and understand why C&B would not
pursue it, but my understanding from what was on HBD and a microbiolist at
major consumer bacteriacidal company, who is a homebrewer, is "it's a mild
sanitizer".

If it is in fact effective perhaps C&B could run and publish some efficacy
tests. This is not a costly procedure and would clear up any questions as
to efficacy of B-Brite

Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:23:55 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Early Racking

In a message dated 1/8/2000 1:08:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ken Pendergrass 
<kenp794 at earthlink.net>writes:

<>

I thought Miller recommended racking off the break material *before* adding 
the yeast.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA



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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 13:31:16 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Hop Loss

In a message dated 1/8/2000 1:08:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, "Brian Dixon" 
<briandixon at home.com>writes:

<< I guess the moral of the story is that if you
 want to hit a particular OG in the fermenter, then you ought to estimate the
 lost specific gravity due to wet hops hanging on to the wort when you
 siphon.  Am I the only person to figure this stuff out?  I hate giving up
 hard-earned points to the hop slop!
  >>

I guess I haven't thought/worried about that one.  I've adjusted my 
expectations on extraction rates to my process and calculate recipes 
accordingly.  I also take a page out of Papazian when transferring wort from 
the kettle to the fermenter.  After cooling I pour the wort through a large 
strainer and then top off the fermenter by running clean, cold water through 
the hops in the strainer.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA




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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:00:00 -0600
From: David Cato <dcato at neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Munich malt

In HBD 3215, Marc Sedam added to the Munich malt discussion with another data
point supporting higher than expected final gravities from a large proportion
of Munich malt.  I have also made several beers with a large proportion of
Munich malt and have seen often had higher than expected final gravities and/or
stuck fermentations.

I've heard of several individuals (and if the recipe sheets from the Dixie Cup
are to be believed, seen several recipes attesting to such practices) as well
as commercial breweries that use large proportions of Munich malt and don't
have problems with high finishing gravities.  What steps can be taken to
eliminate the high finishing gravities when using large proportions of Munich
malt?

Here's what I've been able to dig out of my archives from the past couple of
years:

1 - brewed 8 Mar 1998
  100% Munich
    Double decoction
    Wyeast 2206
    OG 1.057
      Stuck  at  1.030 - boosting temperature restarted fermentation
    FG 1.015

2 - brewed 15 Nov 1998
  99% DWC Munich / 1% Carafa
    Step infusion  at  40/60/70C
    Wyeast 2206
    OG 1.058
      Stuck  at  1.024 - successive additions of (1) amalyse enzyme,
      (2) yeast nutrient, and (3) temperature, eventaully got the
      gravity down.
    FG 1.017

3 - brewed 5 Jun 1999
  95% DWC Munich / 4% Melanoidin / 1% Carafa
    Step infusion  at  44/60/70C
    Wyeast 2206
    OG 1.063
    FG 1.024

4 - brewed 27 Nov 1999
  94% Munich / 5% Pils / 1% Carafa
    Single infusion  at  67C
    Wyeast 1338    Wyeast 1007
    OG 1.052       OG 1.052
    FG 1.016       FG 1.014

5 - brewed 27 June 1998
  79% Munich / 14% Pils / 7% Crystal
    Triple decoction
    Wyeast 2206
    OG 1.066
    FG 1.015

6 - brewed 1 May 1999
  76% Munich / 14% Pils / 7% Crystal / 3% Melanoidin
    Step infusion  at  40/60/70C
    Wyeast 2206
    OG 1.070
      Stuck  at  1.025 IIRC (I don't have all the notes on this one.
      This was a collaboration with Louis Bonham, and resulted in
      some very nasty stuff, possibly due, at least in part, to
      the extended time it sat in the primary fermenter during
      attempts to restart the fermentation.)

7 - brewed 27 Feb 1999
  32% Munich / 46% Vienna / 20% Pils / 2% Crystal
    Step infusion  at  43/60/70C
    Wyeast 2206    Wyeast 2308
    OG 1.051       OG 1.051
    FG 1.016       FG 1.014

Unfortunately I didn't keep good notes on where the Munich malt came.  The
unidentified Munich malts most likely came from Durst, but there may have been
some recipies that used Weyerman or DWC instead.  However, without the malt
specs for each batch, any attempted correlation with the maltster would
probably be useless (note both positive and negative results with DWC Munich,
although each of the 3 used 3 different mash schedules).

Beer #4 is still lagering, so the final gravity readings are not really final
as they were taken when I racked to secondary.  However, I have never seen
more than a 2 point drop in my beers during the lagering phase.  The important
point is that fermentation did not stick with this beer, if for no other
reason than the vigor of the yeast used.

My general experience with large amounts of Munich malt in lagers has not been
very good.  Beer #1 and #2 may have been underpitched, but even those that
were pitched with large amounts of slurry (in particular #6 which used fresh
slurry from a local brewery) have also had problems.  Oxygen shouldn't be a
problem as I've always aerated with pure O2, sometimes even pumping in more
oxygen than is likely required (when your being fed from a 50 lb. cylinder,
there's no shortage of O2).  I don't have a DO meter though, so I don't have
any way to measure how much O2 I've been putting into the wort.

I included beer #7 because it sits in the middle between large quantities of
Munich malt and large quantities of Vienna malt.  Although I only have 2 data
points so far for large quantities of Vienna malt, I have had no fermentation
problems with them.

On a slight tangent, I had a conversation with George Fix last summer in which
he recommended using Vienna malt instead of Munich malt to improve the
stability of the finished beer.  If George could contribute the info he has
regarding the stability differences in finished beer between Munich and Vienna
malts, I would be very interested to see it.

- -- 
David Cato
Houston, Texas (considerably south of Jeff Renner)



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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 14:17:20 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: how do you measure the last runnings?

Bryan Gros <blgros at yahoo.com> asks:

>Jeff and others, how do
>you measure the gravity of your final runnings?
>Whether you stop at 1.012 or 1.010 or 1.005?

When I am approaching what I know from past experience (volume and from
tasting the runoff) is 1.012-1.015, I take a sample and stop the flow for
the few minutes it takes me to cool the sample in a cold water bath or a
convenient snowbank.  Takes about 4-5 minutes.  I used to do this,
actually.  Now I use a refractometer that takes about 20 seconds - less if
the garage/brewery is a moderate temperature so I can leave the
refractometer there instead of inside.  But the old method didn't seem
onerous.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:49:13 -0500
From: Calvin Perilloux <peril at compuserve.com>
Subject: Brewing all-grain after work

Yes, I do my mash brewing after work, quite often when
I was at my last job, actually, and that was a M-F 8 hour
shift.  When I worked night/mixed shifts, I was too beat
to do any brewing except on off days. (Those were
12- to 13-hour shifts, though.)

Mash brewing after work just takes a bit of preparation:  
The night before, I would filter most of my water and have 
it waiting in stainless pots, ideally all the grain and hops
would be all weighed out and ready, and the recipe there
in front of me, too.

As soon as I got home from work, I'd fire up the burner to
get that water heating while I changed into my ragged brewing
clothes, and from that point on, it would go like clockwork.
Dinner?  Maybe pizza/pasta delivery or sandwiches that I can
wolf down during the mash.   You can't manage any more than
that if you hope to finish at a reasonable hour.  Sacrifices
must be made : ).

Unfortunately, I was seldom allowed to leave cleanup until the
next day, but even that was accomodated without too much of
a problem.  If you forget about resting (yourself, not the mash,
that is) and don't stop moving, you can have almost all your
cleanup done before the wort is even finished chilling.

So starting at 6 PM, I would be completely done between about
midnight and 1 AM, depending on my sparge time.  Quickest time
was 5.5 hours of sheer madness (and a lucky sparge that cleared
early on).  Then on to bed, and the next morning a few minutes
at 7 AM or so to rack and splash the beer from my settling tank
into the primary.  

This will sound blasphemous, but I also found that if I didn't
drink any homebrew (or any brew) while brewing, it seemed to
speed things up.   I'd estimate I need to add about 15-20 minutes
for each beer I drank during the session.  (Relax and don't worry
do not apply to mid-week mashing sessions.)

Calvin Perilloux
Staines, Middlesex, England


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Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 16:33:32 -0500
From: KKrist <kkrist at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Is Propylene Glycol safe to drink?

While reading the carton of "Homebrew Cream Concentrated Extract"
produced by Rainbow Flavors, Inc of Osage Beach, MO, I noticed propylene
glycol as an ingredient.

  Propylene glycol is used in antifreeze and in brake fluids.

  Is the cream extract safe to use and then to drink?

 -- Kraig


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 15:06:00 -0800
From: "Richard Thomas" <whafa at home.com>
Subject: Carrot beer, oversparging

Hi everybody,

This is my first post to hbd, but I've been reading it since they resumed
posting it to the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup.  Sorry this next bit has to
be about this calorie vs. calorie thing, just skip it if you want.

Re: some comments made by Dave Burley:
- -----
So the basic theory of calorie counting
as a dieting method is incorrect in its
strictest definition.
- -----

Having a family member with an eating problem has very few advantages, but
one of them is that you get a unique understanding of how the body interacts
with the food it takes in.  I have been literally dumbfounded at just how
efficient the body can be in digesting food.  This topic is too tired for
details, but my experience has been that the caloric value that they put on
food has almost no real significance.  I have seen someone live on _maybe_
400 Kcal a day for a few years, mostly carbohydrates like bagels and orange
juice.  OTOH I eat almost 2500 a day, I'm lazy as hell, and I still can't
put on a pound.

- -----
That was my point, not that you would
gain 135 pounds or 1200 pounds if you
ate one extra carrot a day beyond your
caloric needs.
- -----

I think everyone will agree that this (and every) forum is most valuable
when every participant is as accurate as reasonably possible.  Assuming Alan
Meeker's calculation is accurate, 1200 is off by almost 900%.  I'm not
trying to say you should look up the caloric content of every carrot you
post about, but you should at least have a valid reference.  "I once read"
isn't very helpful.  Brewing is a science as well as an art, after all.


Re: tannin extraction from oversparging:

For my last two or three batches, I've been running an extremely inefficient
sparge to see what the difference in taste is, if any.  I'm somewhat new to
all-grain so my sparging techniques probably aren't as good as they could
be.  My first few brews didn't turn out so well.  Hazy and astringent.  I
suspected the sparge, so I took a recipe or two and almost doubled the
amount of grain, then used just the first runnings with maybe 3 gallons of
sparge water added just to keep the water level above the grain bed.  The
results have been very good, at least for my taste.  Malty, almost creamy,
thick ales with a light hop character (I wasn't expecting such a high OG).
Of course, now my brewing costs are back up to what they were in the extract
days, but the taste is noticeably better.

Richard



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Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 18:03:17 -0600
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: RE: cleaning regulator

Gary Melton asks if his regulator is ruined.

Your regulator can probably be cleaned.  I rebuilt my regulator not
long ago, and it was fairly simple to take apart.  The body screwed
apart, revealing a spring, an adjustment screw, a metal cup on the end
of the screw, and a rubber diaphragm. Pay attention to the order of
disassembly, and reassembly is easy.  I'd try taking it apart and
cleaning the parts well.  Sanitize (iodophor, maybe?) if you feel
inclined, but since I don't expect that regulators are sanitized at
the factory I wouldn't bother.  If you're really concerned, have your
homebrew shop order a rebuild kit to replace the spring and
diaphragm.  Alabrew (http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew ) ordered one
for me and it was far less expensive than a new regulator or paying a
welding supply house to rebuild it for me.

Regards,
Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:46:52 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Shipping CO2 tank


Peter Santerre asks about shipping a CO2 keg to a new home. 

Wholesalers regularly ship CO2 tanks via ordinary UPS. First discharge the 
tank. When pressurized, the tank requires expensive paperwork, empty it does 
not. 
Remove the gauge. Then box it up in a cardboard box with packing material 
around it.
 ( Don't overwrap the box with paper. The UPS rules require a cardboard box 
without paper overwrap.)
 I suggest you pack the gauge well and ship seperately. 

Alan Talman


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:54:03 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: barley wine carbonating

    

     <<venesms at NU.COM      Asked about getting some bottles of flat Barley 
wine ready for a contest.  Assuming that the bottles were properly primed, 
make up a small yeast starter with the same yeast you made the beer with. 
Open each bottle and eye dropper in one drop of yeast slurry into each 
bottle. Recap the bottle. One week or two weeks at 68 deg F. Done!

Try two bottles first if you are not sure you primed correctly. If they don't 
carbonate, do the same thing but re-prime each bottle at the same time you 
re-yeast.  

Alan Talman




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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 20:56:08 EST
From: BIL2112L at aol.com
Subject: Paulner clone

In reply to the request for a paulner clone, I'll offer this:6 oz munich 
malt,6# wheat dme, 4-5 hbus hops ( tett,hall,or another low alpha hop) for 60 
minutes,wyeast 3056. Should be close.


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Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2000 21:16:00 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: Play nice boys



I really like this forum. Sometimes I read it everyday and sometimes only 
once in a while. So maybe I've missed something here. We talk (write) about 
making beer at home for fun, right? So where in God's name did this come 
from? And what got us to this point? Surely whatever transgressions between 
someone named Alan and someone named Dave can be forgiven and forgotten?  We 
are all going to die one day, and not one of us is going to have his HBD 
posts read as his eulogy. It just isn't that important! 

> - -------------------------
>  I did caution Alan in a private memo
>  to be sure to distinguish between
>  slander and comment when he made
>  threats to me to publish his personal
>  feelings toward me in the HBD, as 
>  though they were truths. Being 
>  forewarned by his threat,  I reminded
>  him that his comments were on file and
>  that he should be careful.
>  
Whew! That's hard, man. 

Alan (not the Alan that Dave referred to) Talman


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Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2000 21:18:11 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: carl strauss cream ale recipe

Still looking for a clone of this easy drinkin' brew. Anyone have one??
Thanks, Jerry Daoust



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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 12:57:39 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: re: how do you measure the last runnings?

Bryan Gros asks "... how do you measure the gravity of your final runnings?

I like to keep an eye on what is happening to the SG & pH by taking 100ml
samples every few minutes towards the business end of the sparge.

I can directly measure the SG (after correcting for the sample
temperature).  But as I do not have a temp compensated pH meter (and do not
want to abuse the probe), I pop every 2nd or 3rd sample into the fridge to
cool before measuring.  Each sample is simply tipped (quietly) into the
boiler.

So I use the SG as an indicator that the buffering capacity of the wort is
changing, then use the pH meter on the cooled sample to keep the runnings
below 6.  

I also keep the last sample and allow it to cool to room temperature for a
more accurate measure of pH and SG for my records.

Hope this helps...

David Lamotte
Brewing in Moderation  (that's the name of my mash tun)
In Newcastle N.S.W. Australia



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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 23:08:30 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Ozzie Brew Kettles

Attention Mashers and Full boilers in Sydney N.S.W.

While scanning yesterday's newspaper, I saw an ad for 50l kegs and
fittings.  More about them later, but it turns out that this guy used to
run a Brew on Premises (Regan, I think that you know him 8-)), and has for
sale a number of 60 litre stainless steel boil kettles.  These have been
professionally manufactured and include stainless legs and lid.  They drain
through a 25mm stainless ball valve and include a natural gas fired ring
burner with electric start.  He has been selling a few for $300, but is
only asking $150 to clear the last few.  This seems like a terrific bargain
as the burner and ball valve would cost this much to buy new.  

Oh, I almost forgot the kegs.  It turns out that they have been custom made
and are the same size as Tooheys, but have the CUB fitting.  They are a
little pricey  at  $150 each but they are legal.  The fittings (same as used
in the pub) are also $150 including the disconnects.

Drop me a line if anyone is interested, I can provide a more detailled
description or perhaps even bring the digital camera home from work.  I
could even deliver them to Sydney next time I visit Regan.

Thanks for the bandwidth...

David

Boiling very cool in Newcastle, N.S.W. Australia



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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 08:34:41 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Points lost to hops

Brian Dixon asks about loss of points to the hops in the kettle and 
asks if others have kept track of this.

I think it is a little confusing or a misunderstanding to think of
loss of points (sugars) to the hops when really all you are talking
about is the loss of wort volume.  I believe it is better to think of
points with regard to extraction efficiencies, which you have a good
handle on by knowing the gravity and volume of the wort in the kettle
(either pre-boil or post-boil, but pre-boil is best).  Said
differently, you aren't losing points to the hops.  You're losing wort
to the hops.

I also don't see the point of diluting the wort in the fermentor just
to get the volume up to 5 gallons. Who wants to have to sanitize extra
water by boiling it and cooling it just to top off the fermentor?  I
only do this if my post-boil gravity is too high, which is rare if you
have determined your typical rate of evaporative losses during the
boil.

If you're concerned with wort loss to the hops, you need to make your
batches a little larger.  My target post-boil volume is typically 5.5
gallons.  And I may adjust the recipe to be yield a post-boil volume
even higher if I intend to have a LOT of hops in the kettle which will
hold up even more wort.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA


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Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2000 09:05:16 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: Real CP Fillers vs "El Cheapo" CP Fillers

Michael Owens asked:  Anyone ever had any experience comparing the
performance of real CP bottle fillers to just jamming a tube onto the
cold beer? I'm considering the purchase of a CP filler, but am wondering
if it's really necessary.

I can't answer that from personal exp as I just used a borrowed CP
filler for the first time this past weekend. However, I have talked to
several people who were less than satisfied with simple homemade CP
fillers. From their remarks I would suspect that the picnic tap & tube
solution might be less than satisfactory. However, it would certainly be
easy to try it and see if it works well, and it wouldn't cost you
anything to see how you liked it.

The type of filler I used is just a basic T-shape with the gas & beer
valves on the top bar of the T, and the bleeder valve midway down the
vertical bar. This worked fairly well but I would have liked a third arm
(is there a GMO that will help with this?). I experienced a little
difficulty with getting good, consistent fills and I also managed to
shower myself with a little beer on one or two bottles, but I think
after using the filler a bit more these problems will go away. I think
building a simple stand to support the filler would help somewhat. I
have seen some more expensive fillers that had a built in stand and also
a bottle holder. Do these high end units have any other advantages
beyond these?

Michael signs his post:
Michael Owings -- Chairman, Allan Meeker Defense Fund
$1.43 and counting

I'm sure we can trust you to handle the contributed funds responsibly
and honestly - it'd be truly disappointing to learn that you had spent
Alan's  money for personal gain - say for a counter-pressure filler.
:>)

Mark Tumarkin
Gainesville, FL



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Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2000 09:27:56 -0500
From: "Rob Jones" <robjones at pathcom.com>
Subject: Canadian Amateur Brewers Association Competition - March In Montreal

> MIM Competition: The entry deadline for this year is Saturday March 4,
> 2000. The drop off will once again be Gordon's Cav a Vin. This year's
> Look-A-Like beer will be Trois Pistoles from Unibroue. Entry forms will
> go in the mail early next week. For those of you who can't wait they
> should be available on CABA's web site as of Monday.
> 
> March In Montreal itself will be held on Saturday March 18, 2000. We
> will start the day at Brutopia, we will then head off to visit Unibroue
> in Chamblay. Afterwards we will end up at Sergent Reucreuter for the
> awards ceremony. Look for more information on CABA's website and in the
> next CABATimes. The registration form for MIM will be with the next
> CABATimes at the end of January.
>
> Richard Oluszak
> realbeer.com/caba
> 
> 



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---