---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  parenthal guidance ("Sean Richens")
  sour mash and saison (smorgan)
  Keeping a Phalse Bottom down (Ant Hayes)
  re: propane to natural gas (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  e-profits (Ray Kruse)
  Secrets of Fermentation (Mark Tumarkin)
  Saison Recipe (KMacneal)
  re: bottling just a few... ("Curt Speaker")
  Malt Storage, Siebel closure ("Sieben, Richard")
  Burst Sparging? (John_L._Sullivan)
  arrogant bastard ale ("Czerpak, Pete")
  UK Iodophor (andrew.ryan-smith)
  Burst Sparging, RO water pH, Sour beer (Dave Burley)
  Dairy-use iodophor (andrew.ryan-smith)
  brewing chem texts, Kunze ToM&B (steve-alexander)
  Re: leap years and beers (Mark Bunster)
  Guinness souring (Marc Sedam)
  Re: Leap Years (Jeff Renner)
  Best non-auto sparging technique? (Demonick)
  Shipping, motorizing, and drilling (Edward Seymour)
  Re: Best non-auto sparging technique? ("Charles T. Major")
  pH questions with RO water (Demonick)
  Re: Spruce Beer/Brewing Techniques Vol. 4, No. 2 (Spencer W Thomas)
  RE: Best non-auto sparging technique? (Jonathan Peakall)
  Samichlaus (Marc Sedam)
  RE: Measuring SG (Jonathan Peakall)
  munich thanks and hefeweizen/irish moss question and CP fillers ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Re: Jack's mill ("Jack Schmidling")
  Re: Converting Propane Cooker to Gas ("Randy Hall")
  Re: brewing texts ("Randy Hall")
  colanders... (Guy Burgess)
  Keg Q: Converting Pin lock to Ball lock (Badger Roullett)
  RE: Stout/Sour Mash ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: starters--reason for 10X limit?/ new wyeast package (Brian Pickerill)
  Best non-auto sparging technique? ("Paul Campbell")
  Wyeast 1338 (Scott Zimmerle)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 22:46:49 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at mail.sprint.ca>
Subject: parenthal guidance

Pat, you can't have something "in parenthesis" [sic].

To be "in" requires a pair of parentheses.

Semantically yours,
Sean


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 16:52:32 +1000
From: smorgan at expressdata.com.au
Subject: sour mash and saison



afternoon

a zymurgy or two ago had a feature article on saison. read that one.

I did a similar thing with sour mashing- 500gms of pale grain and crystal
in a 4 litre small picnic cooler.

65 C was the strike temp and we left it for 48hrs. It was pretty sour to
taste neat and when added to the other 17 litres added and fermented
there was a slight sort of mellow tang.

the beer is still in the rack but on transfer was fantastic (we also
had peach's in there- a peache attempt of sorts)

I wish we could drink this now...who needs bottling......

subtlety is may be the way to go.

scotty




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:47:34 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Keeping a Phalse Bottom down

I have been using Phil's Phalse Bottom since 97, very happily, except for
its desire to float. This was not a problem until I started using the
floating mash approach in a combined mash/lauter tun. Doughing in is tricky
when the bottom floats, and I struggle to get a clear run off.

I have tried a few things (apart from the obvious of gluing the thing down).
At the moment, I put a tea strainer on top of it - which works okay -
although I keep having to retrieve the strainer from the dustbin after
turfing the spent grains.

Does anyone have any ideas? 

Ant Hayes


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 01:55:55 -0600
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: re: propane to natural gas

The things needed to make the transition from propane to natural gas are
four  fold.  First you need a natural gas orfice for the burner.  This
is a small brass insert in the burner with a tiny hole in it.  One can
be made by drilling the propane orfice out to a larger size.  7/64 inch
is a good place to start but certainly not over 5/32 inch .
The second item needed is a flexible hose WITHOUT a regulator on it that
runs from the gas line to the burner.  The existing propane hose should
be fine for this but if you must buy one get at least 3/8 internal
diameter.
Thirdly is a "needle" type gas valve.  This allows fine control of the
gas flow.  These should be available from the local gas grill store.  By
the same token, all this stuff is available from them in the first
place.
The final piece of the equation is a main shutoff at the gas line.  This
is a master cutoff to be used when the burner is not being fired and as
an emergency cut off if needed for the unexpected and such.
As usual, all connections should be checked for leaks with soapy water
(bubbles mean leaks) and if you are using the thing inside your house,
adequate ventilation is provided.  Be aware that a high BTU burner
output will be seriously reduced if that burner is converted to natural
from propane.
Cheeers, Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat, Birmingham, AL



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 05:43:31 -0500
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at krusecontrols.com>
Subject: e-profits


  > Make up your costs with volume.

 > That sounds like an old joke.  You can not make up in volume what you
lose in
  >profit.


Actually, most non-e-businesses have learned that if you are making no
profit, then lowering your price and increasing your sales just means
that you close up
sooner rather than later.


> The "smart" e-sellers are making zero profit or losing money.  They
also
> manufactur nothing, have no investement in engineering or design and
are simply
> service business.  Different program entirely.


Let's see.  Buy a widget at $5.00, sell a widget at $5.50 (10% markup to
cover all costs of [re]sale), and then pay $3.00 shipping, plus labor,
building, heat, light,
phone, etc.  Sounds pretty good to me.  Anyone want to invest?


>It's insulting to me that stores add a
>handling cost.  I know the boxes cost more-- but this is the way that
>e-business is going to be.....


Has that been legislated nationally, or just in your area?

And just to keep this OT, I brewed a pilsner semi-outdoors on Saturday
in 20F temperatures.  Had a terrible time keeping my mash temperature
up, but the
cleanup was even more fun.

Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at bigfoot.com




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:39:21 -0500
From: Mark Tumarkin <mark_t at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Secrets of Fermentation

Damn, did you know that? I had no idea .......

       SOLUTION OF THE SECRET OF ALCOHOLIC FERMENTATION

                "Beer yeast, when dispersed in water, breaks down into
an infinite number of small spheres. If these spheres are
transferred to an aqueous solution of sugar they develop into small
animals. They
are endowed with a sort of suction trunk with which they gulp up the
sugar from the solution. Digestion is immediately and clearly
recognizable because of the discharge if excrements. These animals
evacuate
ethyl alcohol from  their bowels and carbon dioxide from their urinary
organs. Thus one  can observe how a specifically lighter fluid is exuded

from the anus and rises vertically whereas a stream of carbon dioxide is

ejected at very short intervals from their enormously large genitals."

                             by Fredrich Woehier and Justus Von Liebig
Published in the annals of Chemistry Volume 29, 1839



Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 06:42:17 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Saison Recipe

Brad Leak is looking for a Saison recipe.  Here's my stab at it.  I'm not 
sure how authentic it is, but it was tasty.

Mac's Saison

   Category         :  Belgian Ale              
   Method           :  Full Mash
   Starting Gravity :  1.054
   Ending Gravity   :  1.014
   Alcohol content  :  5.2%
   Recipe Makes     :  5.0 gallons
   Total Grain      : 10.21 lbs.
   Color (srm)      :  8.4
   Efficiency       :  75%
   Hop IBUs         : 20.0

Malts/Sugars:
  9.50  lb. Belgian Pale Ale         
  0.30  oz. Chocolate                
  3.00  oz. Crystal  20L             
  0.50  lb. Wheat                    

Hops:
 1.50   oz. Hallertau Hersb  2.9%   60 min
 0.30   oz. Saaz             3.3%   10 min

Boil temperature of water: 212F
Grain Starting Temperature: 68F
Desired Grain/Water Ratio: 1 quarts/pound
Strike Water:  2.55 gallons of water at 155F
First Mash Temperature: 136F

Water Absorbed by Grain:  1.02 gal
Water Evaporated during boil:  1.50 gal
Wort Left in Brewpot:  0.33 gal
Add  5.30 gal of water to yield  5.0 gal of wort

Notes:
0.5 oz. coriander at knockout
Wyeast Belgian Abbey II


Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:13:09 +0500
From: "Curt Speaker" <SPEAKER at SAFETY-1.SAFETY.PSU.EDU>
Subject: re: bottling just a few...

Since everyone else is chiming in on this one, I will too...

One of the greatest tools that I have found for bottling just a few 
bottles is the Listerman Counter Phil (no affiliation or kickbacks 
from Dan, just a happy customer, yadda yadda...).  It is a 
counterpressure bottle filler that you don't have to be a nuclear 
engineer to operate.  You need only two hands (duh!), and it works 
well.  You need to follow the directions almost exactly about the 
length of time that you force carbonate and chilling the beer very 
well before filling makes the process MUCH easier (and less 
foamy).  With the exception of barleywines and meads, I keg 
almost everything I make anymore, and if I want to pull off a six-
pack of bottles for competitions purposes, the Counter Phil does 
the job very well.

A satisfied owner of a bunch of Listermann products...

Curt 
Treasurer, State College Underground Maltsters (SCUM)


Curt Speaker                         
Biosafety Officer 
Penn State University                
Environmental Health and Safety    
speaker at ehs.psu.edu                   
http://www.ehs.psu.edu
^...^
(O_O)
=(Y)=
 """


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:18:02 -0600
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Malt Storage, Siebel closure

 Sorry for the slow response as I am still catching up on HBD's, (currently
very busy in the hunt for a new job).

Roger Whyman asked how to handle malt on 1/13:  You would like to see it in
sealed bags at your HB shop so it doesn't pick up moisture from the air.
The malt goes 'slack' when it picks up  moisture and you will not get the
extraction efficiency you expect.  I keep my malt in airtight containers  at
home and I also have a vacum sealer to reseal the smaller bags of specialty
malts.  (malt is very hydroscopic - is that the right word?- and 'loves' to
take up water).

It is indeed very sad to hear of the closure of the Sieben Institute.  I do
hope they can reorganize for all our benefit.  I would love to be able to
take classes from them, but they only have day classes, or did
anyway....maybe there are quite a few of us that could work with night
classes or even correspondence courses.  It might be helpful if a lot of us
voiced this opinion to them now that they don't seem to be able to get
enough enrollment to continute operations.  ( I had proposed these ideas
before to Bill Siebel, but he was not receptive to the idea, siting teacher
scheduling as the problem)

back to the job hunt...


Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:20:18 -0600
From: John_L._Sullivan at NOTES.UP.COM
Subject: Burst Sparging?



Are we all starting to make up terms to suit us?  Paul wrote:

burst sparging entails a recirculation and runoff as per normal.  The only
difference is that you allow the runoff to proceed until the sparge water
column on top of the grain bed gets close to the top of the  grain bed
(don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes!), then dump another
2-3 inches on top.  Continuous sparge obviously differs here in
that a constant 1.5-2" water column is maintained above the grain bed.

Paul then goes on to mention how this method has increased his efficiency
to 85% - 95%.

With exception to the amount of sparge water that lies above the grain bed,
this is no different than regular old "continuous" sparging.  Seems to me
that the only difference would be the weight of the sparge water on the
grain bed.  The relative weight of the additional two inches of water as
opposed to 1/4" (I assume that's when you see the whites of their eyes"),
is not significant in a small batch. However, the sparge rate (i.e. a
lengthy sparge) would have an effect.  Even though I find the 95% hard to
believe, I believe Paul would have to have a long slow sparge to have this
kind of effect on his efficiency rate.

If someone can clearly tell me how "burst sparging" is different from
"continuous sparging", perhaps I can be swayed.  I don't think we need new
terms such as this to confuse the issue for newbies however.

John Sullivan
St. Louis, MO




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:21:07 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: arrogant bastard ale

I just tried my first 22 oz. bottle of Arrogant Bastard Ale by Stone Brewing
out near San Diego.  Too bad this had to be imported from CA by my SO.  What
a big IPA!!  All I know is that its (I think I remember this, 6.9 or 7.2%
ABV).  So thats all I know.  Big hop bitterness.  NOt as much hop flavor or
aroma as some others like HopDevil, etc.  Very deep garnet red color and
seemingly lots of crystal malt to give the color and balance the bitterness
with some sweetness.

Anybody ever had this brew or tried to replicate it. Any help or thoughts
are appreciated with malt %, hops, or yeast.  Thanks.

The hoppier, the better.....

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY 

Private reply is okay as well


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:33:20 +0000
From: andrew.ryan-smith at ind.alstom.com
Subject: UK Iodophor



Catching up . . ..

Adam Funk asks if there is an outlet for Iodophor in the UK.

None that I know of - I have asked colleagues of mine visiting the US to bring
some back for me.

There is a forum for UK based homebrewers - send an e-mail to list at ale.co.uk,
with no subject header, and

join uk-homebrew

in the body of the mesage.  Articles/comments etc should then be sent to
uk-homebrew at ale.co.uk

Cheers

Rhyno




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:40:56 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Burst Sparging, RO water pH, Sour beer

Brewsters:

>From Paul's definition of "burst" sparging
( a new one on me) , I've always been
doing it that way to maximize the plug flow
characteristics, but don't understand how
it can inprove the effciency of the sparge
from 85% to 95%.
- ---------------------------------
Chris Beadle's RO water has a low pH 
on the order of 4.5-5. If this is from a well,
likely this is dissolved CO2. Try boiling
some  water and measuring the pH. Or
maybe you  can pour the water
through the air to decarbonate it.

An air pump with an aquarium aerator 
while heating would probably automate
this task.

I definately wouldn't add calcium carbonate
to this unless you are using a very high
concentration of roasted malts.

I also wonder if you are measuring the pH
of the mash using a cooled to RT sample.
I don't know how accurate the pH paper
would read at a higher temperature.
- --------------------------------
Rich, I suggest you check out the archives for 
information on how to prepare a sour beer for
Guinness. Charlie's method is fine,but I 
just mash a small amount of malt in a pot on
the stove, cool to 100-110F and add some
dry malt as a starter.

Use a thermos bottle to keep the temperature
up.  Also my electric oven with the light on
and door closed is about this temp. I put
the thermo in there.

I also did a titration and seem to recall
it will produce about 0.1% lactic acid,
but check the archives.
- --------------------------
Keep on Brewin'


Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:34:48 +0000
From: andrew.ryan-smith at ind.alstom.com
Subject: Dairy-use iodophor



Still catching up . . . . .

Dairy use iodophor (in the UK anyway) has lanolin in it, apparently,
to stop the cows' teats getting sore from the milking machines.

Cheers

Rhyno




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:56:08 +0000
From: steve-alexander at att.net
Subject: brewing chem texts, Kunze ToM&B

I discussed this issue in some depth a couple years back 
as I'm sure Alan Meeker remembers ;^). [Older but no
wiser Alan ?]

My only added comment re the current discussion is that
I think Paul Smith mischaracterizes Kunze
> Wolfgang Kunze's "Technology Malting and Brewing"
>is also excellent, but I would hold off if all you
>wanted was chemistry.  While chemistry and
>biochemistry and  thoroughly discussed,

W.Kunze's book is an English translation of a highly re-
editted undergrad textbook.  It covers practical aspects 
of brewing in great detail BUT it does not provide the
background info, just the practical results.

Chemistry and biochemistry are not thoroughly discussed
in Kunze - just a very light pass at the major issues.

In all it is a great book, and condenses the practical
results of much important research but it is flawed in
several ways.  The English translation is marginal and
includes several errors that I suspect are directly
due to translation, the index is very lacking by
modern standards (my copy is full of yellow stickies
since the index is so useless), and the references to
advanced literature are very limited in number.

If you can get a copy of PoBS on the cheap - use the
excellent reference citations to track down the original
books and journal papers.

Even if your library doesn't contain brewing journals -
check outtexts on flavor chemistry, food science,
fermentation science, etc. - even ag journals!

 -S



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:01:28 -0500
From: Mark Bunster <mbunster at saturn.vcu.edu>
Subject: Re: leap years and beers


Thanks to all who replied publically and privately.
Yes, I misspoke--first leap year in a year with TWO zeros. We knew that.

Also, when I asked for beers "brewed essentially as they were 400 years ago,"
I neglected to consider the specific gravity (pun intended) of that
statement. Since I knew it was unlikely to find a keg of  framboise sitting
on the shelf at Total Beverage, I meant more simply "what are some beers from
breweries more than 400 years old, that can be found with some effort
in the Mid-Atlantic? Are any of them available by the keg?"

And perhaps I've answered my friend's question for him: go to Total Bev
and see what you find.
Thanks,
M




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:14:03 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Guinness souring

There's an easier way.  20oz is approximately 3% of a 5
gallon batch.  I buy a couple of cans of Guinness Pub
Draught a few days before brew day.  Place 1.5 cans in a
pyrex measuring cup, throw a handful of grain in the bottom,
and cover the top with cheesecloth.  In a few days you'll
get a nasty funk on the top.  Strain the sour beer through a
coffee filter and boil for 20 minutes to sterilize (I
pressure-can it, YMMV).  Add to the boil (or secondary,
whichever you prefer).  This gives a great "twang" and helps
approach the real thing.

I've done it Charlie's way.  It works but is way too much of
a hassle for me.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:20:53 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Leap Years

"Paul Ward" <paulw at doc.state.vt.us> asked about skipping leap years every
400 years:

>O.K. - I guess I was skipped school that day.
>Who made up these goofy rules.

This old history teacher (and science and English - watch those question
marks, Paul) will now give a make-up lesson.

Pope Gregory XII in 1582 did it (actually, I'm sure it was his advisors,
but he had the clout), to make up for the 11 minute per year error of the
Julian calendar (named after Julius Caesar), which had accumulated to ten
days by that time.  To make a one-time correction, Gregory ordered ten days
eliminated from the calendar that year, so October 4 was followed by
October 15 in Catholic countries.  Apparently there was great distress in
1582 as people thought they were being robbed of ten days of their lives.

Various German countries waited until 1700 to adopt the Gregorian calendar.
England and America waited until 1752 [George Washington was not born on
Feb. 22, but rather Feb. 11, 1732 [George brewed porter - now we're
on-topic!]).  Russia adopted it in 1918 and Turkey in 1927, but the Eastern
Orthodox churches never have, which is why they just celebrated Christmas.

This tweak of the calendar makes a calendar year accurate to with 26
seconds of the solar year, an error which is decreasing 0.53 seconds per
century as the solar year gradually shortens.

You're now excused from missing that day of school.  But there will be a quiz!

Jeff


 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:37:24 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Best non-auto sparging technique?

"Brian D." <briandixon at home.com> asks: 

> Q) I pour hot sparge water through a SS colander with a 2-cup
> Pyrex measuring cup so that the sparge water forms little streams
> and drops and doesn't cause channeling ... what's the best
> non-hand-holding answer to the colander?  I don't mind pouring
> water in to keep the sparge water from 0" to 1 1/2" deep on the
> grain bed, but I hate holding the colander

Just lay a soup bowl, non-perforated, on top of the grain bed.  Pour
the sparge water into the soup bowl and let it overflow onto the grain
bed.  You may get some local scouring of the top of the grain bed
near the bowl, but it's irrelevant.  Keep a few inches of water on
top of the grain bed.

Also, buy yourself a 5 gallon Gott cooler.  Use it as your sparge
water reservoir and adjust for continuous sparge.  After holding
the colander by hand for a few years you deserve to get yourself 
a present!

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or 
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't 
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:47:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Edward Seymour <eseymour at yahoo.com>
Subject: Shipping, motorizing, and drilling

Hay, I know this one. 

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:33:06 -0500
 "Matthew A. Cosenza" MCosenza at KAPLAW.com wrote the
following on the subject of Shipping and Handling

"All this Shipping and Handling stuff has gotten me
irritated."
     I think it's gotten a lot of us irritated,
Specially those of us who majored in business and know
a little about  the costs of buying and selling
products.

"I realize that there is extra cost in "handling" an
item to be shipped-- "
     And Jack is nice enough to let you know the price
of this cost. He could have burred this cost into the
price of the product, but then he would be accused of
price gouging his customers. 

"But there's an added benefit in that you are
increasing your target customer base by millions!"
     HELLO, reality check here. I don't think that
there are millions of homebrewers out there, let alone
ones that are all grain brewers and do not already
have a way of milling their grains.  It would be nice
for all of us if there were though. 

"It's the Wal Mart theory-- sell more stuff at cheaper
prices.  Every cent does not need to be passed on. 
The smart e-sellers will offer NO shipping or handling
costs for sales over a certain price limit in an
effort to gain a larger customer base.  It's insulting
to me that stores add a handling cost.  I know the
boxes cost more-- but this is the way that e-business
is going to be.  Make up your costs with volume."
     Ouch, shouldn't of used Wal-Mart in this
argument.  A simple trip to Wal-Mart's web site
http://www.wal-mart.com shows that 'yes' they do
charge shipping and handling on their products. They
either charge you a "fixed shipping" price, or they
charge a set price and a price per item such as "
Standard (5-8 business days) $4.00 + $0.97 per item,
Premium (3-5 business days) $6.00 + $2.47 per item,
Express (2-3 business days) $12.00 + $5.97 per item"
(pulled from their web site). 

     One way to get around this is to purchase your
MALTMILL from your local retailer.  I did this and
paid the same price as most of the mail order houses
were charging BEFORE shipping and handling (even $4.00
cheaper than Jack sells them for on his web site). I
hope this doesn't void my lifetime warrantee. 
Supporting your local retailer will help to ensure
that they are still there when you need them.  I had a
homebrew shop that was 10 minutes away close its doors
this summer.  Now I have to drive 45 minutes to visit
the closest one. 

     Let's stop flaming someone who had the vision to
see a need for a product and be innovative enough to
make a product to fill that void.  I thought about
making my own mill, but after some thoughtful
consideration (cost, time, machinery to produce one of
a kind) I decided that is was cheaper to purchase one
already made. Jack makes an excellent product at a
reasonable price. It seems that the old proverb is
true, "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, whine
about those who do".  What we need are more
visionaries and less moaners. 
* * * * * * * * * * 
     Sometimes we overlook the obvious.  I was looking
for a way to motorize my MALTMILL this past weekend
and was disturbed about the 3/8 shaft on the end. I
had the meat slicer motor in my hand and was trying to
figure a way to mount it on the mill.  My wife looks,
and said "Why don't you just use your drill to
motorize that thingie?  While you're at it, drill a
hole in the base and hang it on the wall when your
done. 
	Jack, Can I drill a hole in the base, or will this
void my warrantee?  

Edward Seymour
Sr. Procurement Analyst
Sikorsky A/C
Hamden CT.
"At  -23 deg.(with windchill) outside I feel that I'm
in Jeff's back yard" 
www.geocities.com/eseymour/brewery
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:53:32 -0600 (Central Standard Time)
From: "Charles T. Major" <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Re: Best non-auto sparging technique?


Brian Dixon asks about sparging gadgets.  I wnaully sparge 
(w/ 2-liter Pyrex measuring cup) my 5-gal Igollo 
cylindrical cooler.  I used to use a colander until I found 
that the stainless steamer basket insert for our 1-gal 
stockpot fit just inside the coller with a lip that rests 
on the rim off the cooler to hold it in place.  I add water 
until the cooler's full and then put the lid back on upside 
down and let it drain for awhile (sound like burst sparging 
to me) before refilling.


Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 07:53:32 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: pH questions with RO water

"Chris Beadle" <cbeadle at fischerUS.com> asks why his RO water has such
a low pH (4.7).  Carbonic acid.  Water has air dissolved in it. Air
has CO2 in it.  CO2 plus water equals carbonic acid.  I'm not sure
that you need to worry too much about the pH of your RO water. pH per
se is not the issue, but buffering ability is.  pH is just a measure
of hydrogen ion concentration and in pure water a little excess H+ can
greatly effect the pH yet has very little buffering potential.  
Buffering potential is the ability of the solution to resist changes
in pH.  This means that your RO water at pH 4.7 will have very little
effect on the actual mash pH.  Calcium carbonate is a salt and as such
added to the water alone is not basic and will do little to adjust pH.  
Added to the mash it will increase the buffering potential and help
keep the pH in the right range.

I suggest ignoring pH for a batch or two and just brew with your RO
water and NO water treatment at all.  See what happens and adjust
accordingly.  I've brewed with filtered Seattle water which is pretty
close to RO water and found no problems whatsoever.  I do generally
use 1 gram/gallon of gypsum (calcium sulfate) in my mash water.

You may also try boiling your RO water to drive out all the air, then
cooling it to mash and sparge temperatures. 

Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152  phone
(206) 782-6766  fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com

FREE PrimeTab SAMPLES! Enough for three 5 gallon batches. Fax, phone, or 
email: name, shipping address (no P.O.B.) and phone number. (I won't 
call. It's for UPS in case of delivery problems). Sorry, lower 48 only.



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:55:49 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Spruce Beer/Brewing Techniques Vol. 4, No. 2 

Not the BT article, but a friend recently made spruce beer during a
local "heritage festival".  Mashed in a half-barrel and the works.
The beer was awful (because of lots of nasty wild yeast and who knows
what getting into it) but he did learn something from it.  For the
spruce beer, they used spruce branches (maybe just the tips) as the
*filter bed* in the mash tun.

He showed up at the brewclub on Friday with a new spruce beer, made
using modern sanitation practices, but with the spruce added *in the
mash* instead of in the boil.  Wonderful!  It had a subtle spruce
flavor, not at all overwhelming.  And it's probably much closer to the
way such beers were made "in the old days."  Even now, farmhouse
brewers in Norway (and other countries, I'm sure -- no flames please)
use juniper branches to help filter the mash, following an age-old
tradition.

I'm not sure how much he used, but his wife complained about the
"naked" spruce trees in their front yard.  I'm sure he'd be happy to
give you details.  I don't think he's on the HBD, but I can pass on
requests to him if he's not.

=Spencer


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:23:27 -0800
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Best non-auto sparging technique?

>I most of all want to hear from those who have come up with something
that
>you can pour in to and are now currently using that method ... and love
it.

I mash in a 10 gal. Gott coooler, and use the lid eof a 5 gal. bucket
with holes drilled in it. Upped my efficiacy by 3-5% over pouring. Not
as good as the spinning arm sprinkler I made (copied from Phil's
design), but now I use a RIMS and the bits of grain in the wort clogged
it up all the time.




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:44:28 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: Samichlaus

Has anyone successfully cultured yeast from a bottle of
Samichlaus?  I have a few bottles (among the last, it turns
out) and want to culture up the yeast to brew a strong
lager.  I just plan to drain the bottle, pour some wort in
it, cap with an airlock, and hope for the best.

Even though Hurliman don't make this anymore, can anyone
recall whether the yeast in the bottle is the fermenting
yeast?  I'll guess that it is.

Cheers!
Marc



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 08:42:16 -0800
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Measuring SG

>Some folks seem to go to take some very elaborate steps to measure SG
of
>final runnings or hot wort.

>I take a sample, measure its temperature, and add the appropriate
amount of
>orrection from a table I have photocopied and keep in my brewing space.

>No snow banks, water baths or  mini chillers.

I'm even less elaborate. I just taste the runnings, and if they ain't
sweet no more, I'ze cuts em off. Mind you, I'm so lazy I rarely caculate
my efficiency (only if I have added new equip. or technique) and often
dont even take a SG. If I need to know the alcohol content, I drink a
few ;-P!!



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:51:15 -0500
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: munich thanks and hefeweizen/irish moss question and CP fillers

Thanks for all the info related to my Munich malt and low extraction
question of about a week ago. It sounds like dark Weyermanns munich malt has
the potential for lowered OG and higher FG.  It also sounds like decoction
mashing can help with low extractions.  Increasing temperature of
fermentation may help also if the gravity is stuck high.  When infusion
mashing, I'll just have to buy a pound or 2 extra I guess.

Now for a new question.

I pretty much always use irish moss in all my beers as force of habit.
Should this help or hinder the cloudy heifeweizen look?  Has anybody done a
control experiment with looking at this idea?  I am not opposed to a weizen
eventually dropping clear especially since some German ones are clear but
prefer the hazy look for some reason.

For CP fillers (I only use this for competition bottling and not to bring
growlers to parties), I use a Phils filler.  It works very good and only
foams a tiny bit (maybe 1/4" to 1/2" once the beer is up to the neck area of
the bottle).  The foam amount can be limited by how slow you fill the bottle
 - mine tend to take about 30 - 45 seconds each). I have noticed the beer is
less oxidized tasting after multiple months with this type of treatment as
opposed to the normal bottling bucket method we all used early in our
homebrewing days or the homemade tube and cobra handle. This filler is easy
to use by yourself.  I tend to wash and sanitize my bottles and throw them
in the freezer for atleast an hour to chill them.  I also tend to throw the
filler also in the freezer to chill it also to help in the antifoaming
efforts. The beer is carbonated to its normal level at about 12 -15 psi in
the keg and I fill using the same pressure or maybe slightly less.  I blow
out the bottles with CO2 using the filler for maybe 10 seconds and then seat
the stopper on the bottle and fill it pretty slowly.  Usually a minimal
amount of mess unless I manage to turn the beer flow on rather than the
purge CO2. 

By the way, its nice to see the flame level at a low setting this week.

Post your thoughts,

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY

Ps. As to brewing music, I tend to listen to alot of progrssive rock -
mainly Rush. A bit of Phish, Midnight Oil, and some other pretty varied
stuff gets thrown in the disk changer as well.



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:44:33 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Re: Jack's mill

From: ALABREW <alabrew at mindspring.com>

>My malt mill did self-destruct
(personal use only). The (small) hopper came apart and the base broke.
It does make a nice, though expensive door stop. That's why we have used
a PhilMill here at the shop for the past three years.

I have been driving a VW for 3 years because every time I let my 3 year old
grandson drive my Rolls Royce, he made a mess of it.  The (small) ash try got
filled with mashed Twinkies,  all the cocktail glasses broke when he hammered on
them, and the Grey Pupon was smeared all over the windows.

BTW, my old PM does not even make a good doorstop; it's not heavy enough.

js

PHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
HOME: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos  http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 09:42:04 -0800
From: "Randy Hall" <rhall at corpdemo.com>
Subject: Re: Converting Propane Cooker to Gas

Frank Timmons wrote:

	I have a Cache Cooker (high pressure jet-type propane cooker made in
Utah) that I want to convert to Natural Gas.
<snip>
	Has anyone ever successfully converted one of these things? Or does
anybody have a contact at the company that made it? I have done a web search
with no success, and can't find a phone listing either.

- ----

I found the following while poking around looking for Camp Chef stuff:

http://wwv.budbaily.com/cc/

If you look under the "Contact Us" button, you find the following contact
info:

Phone: 1-800-650-CHEF (CHEF=2433)
Email: info at campchef.com
Fax:   1-435-752-1592
Mail:  Camp Chef
       P.O. Box 4057
       Logan, UT 84323-4057

As to whether they have info on adapting the stove for natural gas, I have
no idea.

Good luck,

Randy



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:48:50 -0800
From: "Randy Hall" <randy_hall at earthling.net>
Subject: Re: brewing texts

Am I missing something regarding "The Practical Brewer"? I hear that it is
available for download (free) from MBAA, but when I go to www.mbaa.com, I am
unable to find a link to the pdf file. Is this a membership issue? If it is,
I don't meet the qualifications for any level of membership (i.e. I am a
freakin' newbie at this, and it's a hobby for me, but I'm educated enough to
appreciate the organic chemistry involved in brewing).

Is there any way to have someone post a link to the PDF?

Cheers,

Randy



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 14:08:46 -0500
From: Guy Burgess <orientalwok at fuse.net>
Subject: colanders...

"Brian D." <briandixon at home.com> asks:

"what's the best non-hand-holding answer to the
colander?"

Why over-engineer a suspended wire wrapped
colander, drilled cake pan, or floating gizmo?

Save yourself some time and hassle & look at
Listermann's Sparge Arm. It's inexpensive and
with a simple hose clamp you can adjust the flow
rate such that you can cook dinner while you
sparge, really! Sometimes I use it, and sometimes
I just dump the water right on the grains. I feel that
my time is worth more the cost of the sparge arm.

Guy



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 11:11:28 -0800
From: Badger Roullett <branderr at microsoft.com>
Subject: Keg Q: Converting Pin lock to Ball lock 

I have a simple question I could not find an answer on the net for...

I found a 10 gallon keg for a pretty good price, but it is PIN lock.  I have
a setup that is all BALL lock.  

How can I convert the PIN lock to Ball lock?  is it easy?  is it a matter of
switching the fittings, or do they not interchange?  I have a couple of pin
lock couplings that I can use if I have to, but I would prefer to use all
the same rather than having to switch out my hoses on the regulator every
time.

badger


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:23:15 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Stout/Sour Mash

Does Guinness in fact own up and describe the use of soured beer in their
stouts?  While I have heard this as a momily for a long time, I've never
actually seen this documented.  Rather, Jackson and others have stated that
Guinness draught has three grain components, pale malt, roasted barley and
flaked barley.  I've been to Dublin and had many pints of Guinness there in
pubs and at the brewery and frankly do not taste any "tang" as Rich and
others have described it.  I have had Guinness in the USA that was off and
it was in fact soured so I wonder if what is being described is really a
representation of beer that hasn't traveled or been handled well and not an
intended aspect of the beer?  I've found that recipes using just the three
grains, mashed at 150oF with sufficient boiling hops to hit about 40 IBU is
pretty much dead on draught Guinness.  I'd appreciate specific references to
sources for this soured beer addition other than the "he said" momily.

David Houseman


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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:38:59 -0500
From: Brian Pickerill <bpickerill at mac.com>
Subject: RE: starters--reason for 10X limit?/ new wyeast package

>George,
>
> Why "should you never increase the volume of wort the yeast are in by more
> than a factor of ten?" I've seen this advice elsewhere and have never
> understood why you can't just pitch the Wyeast package into 1000 mL of
>wort.
> Thanks.

OK, I'm not George, but since there was nothing in #3225, let try my luck
at this one. I have seen this advice many times and was surprised when the
subject of making starters came up recently and nobody mentioned it.
Everybody who posted at the time said they they just do one large starter.
I think the reasoning for 10x step up is that even after boiling there are
going to be some bacteria present, but if the wort volume is small enough,
relative to the population of yeast you are pitching, then they will be
able to take hold quickly enough to  outpace the growth of the bacteria.
This then creates conditions that make bacterial growth difficult (or eat
up most of the sugars that make the wort so attractive.)

After recently suffering my first bad batch, I feel there could be a bigger
threat of infection in stepping up many times.  My SOP is now to pitch a
wyeast pack into 800ml in an erlenmyer flask.  I'm going to go with this
for awhile and see how it works out.  I personaly think that pitching a
smack pack into a liter is pretty safe.  I certainly would not want to try
to pitch a slant scraping into that much wort though!

- ----

Have you noticed the new wyeast packages?  Do they hold more, or is the
packaging just different?  (There is now a foil bottom built in.)  They can
be stood up on the counter when they are swelled.  This is not the "xl"
pack is it?  (I didn't see that on the label--mine was WY1056--not an XL
yeast I don't believe...

- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie, Indiana




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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 20:48:45 +0800
From: "Paul Campbell" <p.r.campbell at tesco.net>
Subject: Best non-auto sparging technique?

In  HBD #3225 Brian asks about pragmatic kitchen equipment brewing
techniques:

I'm currently using a (thick) squat plastic bucket with custom insulation
added to retain an approximate mashing temperature (single infusion ale
brewing mostly). I've installed a slotted 15mm copper square manifold with a
washing machine tap through the side as close to the bottom as possible. I
to use a colander to distribute sparge water (large stainless steel version
with holes in the bottom, solid sides). Mine rests happily on the edges of
the bucket allowing me to scoop sparge water in at whatever rate I desire. I
find that if I keep the water level in the mash tun deep i.e. around 2"
(added in mini-batches at approximately 10 minute intervals), splashing is
minimised; although I do usually move the colander around a bit as it
doesn't sit exactly centered. The colander is shaped like a small pan, about
1.5" deep.

I overshoot my pre-boil target gravity slightly (by 3-4 points), based on
the default 75% efficiency in ProMash; taking around 45 minutes to collect
27 litres. I'm not too concerned with the small amount (1" drop) of
splashing sparge water causing HSA; I'm fairly careful otherwise and always
wear rubber gloves to go pee-pee after handling hot chillies :^) If you have
a tall mash/lauter tun, the large droplets of water may have a bit too far
to travel and cause quite a bit of splashing..... I figure that as long as
I'm not hammering away at the top of the grain bed I should be OK.

The one extra thing I do from habit is cut the grain bed (both directions)
with a knife during the sparge by an inch or so; which *I* think wards off
the channeling pixies... but then, what do I know.

It's simple and works for me; I'm not sure about its claim as the best
though...

As with everything, YMMV.

Paul.
Edzell,
Scotland.



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Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:23:55 -0600
From: Scott Zimmerle <szimmerle at mediaone.net>
Subject: Wyeast 1338

hbd,

Has anyone in this group ever done a pseudo-dopplebock with Wyeast 1338?
The primary ferment would be at ale temps and I could cold condition it
at about 50F for a few months.  If so, how did it turn out? I will have
a yeast-cake of 1338 and am considering various uses for it. Also, what
would be the best temperature to attempt this at (I'm assuming 60 F)?
The primary ferment would be at ale temps and I could cold condition it
at about 50F for a few months.

TIA,

scott zimmerle



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---