---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  WYEAST (TKBFRED)
  figuring out the degrees/gal/min of a herms (J Daoust)
  fermentap (Warandle1)
  Link to RIMS Article? ("Steven J. Owens")
  Cleaning Spent Grains In All-Grain Brewing ("Steven J. Owens")
  Optic Pale Ale Malt (darrell.leavitt)
  Methyl Alcohol ("Les Stoddard")
  How to determine pitching rate? (Tim Sigafoose)
  Re. Sake Yeast ("Sean Richens")
  RIMS etc temperature control options (mteed)
  It's a homebrew; no, it's a navigational aid... (ThomasM923)
  temperature controlled fermentation chamber (Paula & Jim)
  Biere de Garde (RBoland)
  fur orientation (AlannnnT)
  competition rules (AlannnnT)
  kegging system (JSTanker)
  All About Steinbier (The Brews Traveler)
  RE: Foam Stoppers (Pat Babcock)
  Forced Carbonation (Aaron Perry)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entry deadline for the Mayfare Homebrew Competition is 3/15/00 
* See http://www.maltosefalcons.com/ for more information

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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 00:44:09 EST
From: TKBFRED at aol.com
Subject: WYEAST

As the father of the Brewing scene (small) always sais (it's no other than 
Charlie
Papazian): ; RELAX; DON'T WORRY, HAVE A HOMEBREW''
WYEAST produces a long time yeast cultures for any kind of fermentation,
and if there is a problem, one should consider to research the problem before 
finger pointing.
I don't know Jim Liddle or David Lodgsdon personally, but I believe if both 
of them
have a 'cyber'' fight going on, it certainly don't belong in the HBD.
It is hearting the business of WYEAST; it is not proven that a problem exist,
so why take it to the extreme? WYEAST has a lot of experts on their stuff, 
and as much as I know from past experience and talking with other Brewers, 
they are very helpful in
resolving problems. So, please stay to Homebrew discussions, any other stuff 
is not good for
the small brewers.
Only my 2 cents to this ongoing ''stuff''
Fred M. Scheer



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Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 21:43:58 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: figuring out the degrees/gal/min of a herms

I just gave my new herms a try, and I think it did pretty good, I heated
4 gals. of water 35 degrees in 30 min.  I came up with 4.64 degrees
/gal/min.  I divided the 35 by 30 and got 1.16, then, multiplied by 4
for the amount of water.  Is that right?   If it is not, could someone
help me out?
Thanks, Jerry Daoust, e-mail is ok.



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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 02:15:56 EST
From: Warandle1 at aol.com
Subject: fermentap

Mark Vernon,

In addition to Kurt K.'s question, I was wondering how does the CO2 
produced/evolved during fermentation escape from the inverted carboy?

Will Randle
Ashland, MO


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:00:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Link to RIMS Article?

Hey folks,

     I haven't been able to find a good article on the web explaining
the particulars of brewing with a RIMS.  Plenty of "Here's how I built
my RIMS" pages, which I will be revisiting when it comes time to start
welding, but nothing explaining the how and why of it in detail.  I
could have sworn I'd run across a reference to an article in my
previous research (while I was focused on learning about all-grain
brewing and three-tier systems) but now I can't find the URL.

     I really liked the articles at www.brewingtechniques.com.  Well
written, very accessible.  Ideally I'd like to find an article much
like "Do The Mash!", only focusing on RIMS ("Do The Mash!" is at
http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue6.5/depiro.html).
I can't find any article on RIMS in general on the site.  Anybody have
some pointers?

     In my ongoing research into "The Next Step Up" for brewing, I've
been trying to figure out how RIMS affects the picture.  I have
several hardware-savvy friends and I program for a living, so the
potential cost to build my own is reasonable.  Also, a friend who's
slacking off on his brewing has offered me the extended loan of a
heater and pump he obtained for doing his own RIMS.  This all makes
RIMS a practical possibility, if it's worth doing.  The question is,
what does it buy me?

     My primary criterion is making my brewing easier and more
time-effective.  I'm sure that having a pump to move hot liquids
around and an inline heater to heat things and a control circuit to
avoid boilovers will all be a great help.  But using a RIMS approach
supposedly will also save me having to sparge and recirculate.  What
are the upsides?  Are there any downsides?

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 01:19:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Cleaning Spent Grains In All-Grain Brewing

Hi folks,

     Another neurosis from my closet of all-grain brewing is cleaning
up the spent grains.  In the seven years of extract/partial mash
brewing we've done, almost every batch has been done with a grain bag
and hops bag. This simplifies the cleanup tremendously, without any
downside that we've observed.  Reading about the sparging process in
all-grain brewing makes it pretty clear that using a grain bag is not
typically done during the mash.  Is it possible to do so, and if so,
what's the down side? 

     If a grain bag for the mash is not feasible, are there any
alternatives to make cleaning easier?  Particularly with a false
bottom or a manifold for sparging, that part of the process looks like
a big pain in the ass.  Add in the idea of going to much larger
vessels (15 gallon batches?) with various fittings welded in place.
This makes lifting and dumping out the vessels awkward, if not
impossible.  I start to get visions of long hours stooped over hot,
head deep in sticky sanke kegs as I chase elusive bits of grain husk.

     Would it be feasible to have some sort of "lift-out" arrangement,
so the grain bed could be lifted out en-masse (probably built into the
false bottom) and dumped out?

     Or perhaps some sort of extra-large drain (3-4" wide) in the
bottom; after sparging, open the drain and use water to flush the
grains out (through some sort of sieve as a collection point).  Close
it back up and run boiling water through the system to clean the
sticky residue and sanitize.

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:29:50 -0500 (EST)
From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Optic Pale Ale Malt

I just received a bag of "optic" pale ale malt from Fawcett.  I noticed
that the "Extract C.G. Dry Basis" is 83.2....this is higher than any
of the others that I have seen in their list. I am not sure that I am
sophisticated enough to notice ....  but if I do notice anything different
about this malt I wil report it here....

 ..Darrell


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 08:23:52 -0500
From: "Les Stoddard" <wailstail at email.msn.com>
Subject: Methyl Alcohol

Greetings to the collective!
    I am doing a job at a pharmaceutical company and I came across these
1-Gallon brown glass jugs in the trash.  They were formerly filled with
Methyl Alcohol.  Can these be used in Brewing?  I am curious about how to
prepare these to be used.

Private e-mail is ok  wailstail at msn.com

Les Stoddard
Long Island NY






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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:27:48 -0600
From: Tim Sigafoose <mitzmgr at mindspring.com>
Subject: How to determine pitching rate?

There seems to be a lot of discussion about pitching rates. I use the
White Labs Pitchable line and pitch it directly out of the vial. I have
never experienced any
problems that I recognized as such. I always get a strong initial
fermentation which lasts 3-5 days and usually end up with a F.G. of
1.010-1.1012. While this seems perfectly reasonable to me, I can't help
but wonder (what with all discussion) if I may be missing the point. Are
there reasons other than healthy fermentations why one would be
concerned with pitching rates?

Tim Sigafoose
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:06:02 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re. Sake Yeast

Glen Pannicke wrote:

>Fred Eckhardt says under his section dedicated to koji: "There is a Chinese
product called meng or chiu (labeled "dry yeast" in some chinese markets).

>He further defines 'jui men' as "Chinese yeast balls with three types of
fungi described (under the definition of jiu-niang), plus a binder,  which
is rice and wheat flour and vegetable juice, alternately 'jiu ben' or 'jiu
bing'.

Thanks for the name.  I had a Chinese mycologist write it out for me, but
unfortunately it was in "scientificese" and it took a bit of handwaving to
complete the translation.  Are those names Mandarin or Cantonese?

 >...and that it's what
her mom uses to make a sweet, slightly fermented rice dish.
>Has anyone made drinkable sake from these balls?  Keyword: drinkable...
Why do I bother on this seemingly impossible mission?  ;-)

Yes, it works.  What I did was make the "sweet, slightly fermented rice
dish" first.  You steam the rice, 'aseptically' slurry up the seed (about 1
ball per gallon of sake) and stir it in in a sanitized bucket.  Make an
indent in the middle of the rice, allow to ferment 3-5 days in a warm place,
and stir it over once or twice a day to supply oxygen to the mold.  When the
indent in the middle shows liquid, you can call that your 'koji'.

You then add the water and an alcohol-tolerant yeast.   I used the usual
killer champagne yeast.  Ferment another month at lager temperatures, then
strain out any unconverted rice.  I cheated at this point by adding a bit of
amylase to help clear it.  I filtered and bottled.  The results came out
like a standard commercial sake.

If I had ever tried "connoisseur" sakes, I might have been less satisfied
with the results, but the whole complicated back-inoculation scheme strikes
me as the Japanese equivalent of esoteric German mash and lager sequences.
Consider it a back-to-basics homebrew sake and be happy.

Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca



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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 09:04:32 +0000
From: mteed at juno.com
Subject: RIMS etc temperature control options

Greetings to the collective,

	Im a bit slow at posting this info to the group, but here it is.

	Been reading the RIMS/HERMS/HEARMS/ETC temperature control
discussions with interest. The cost for PLC control is too high for my
desires. Straight thermometer modules lack any control, limit or alarm
functions I need. Continuing to search I found these discoveries. 

	The lowest cost method for temp control I have found so far is
using temperature modules with alarm functions. Not too many of these
have high/low limit functions at a price that is affordable, but heres
some that do if you have limited electronic assembly skills. 

	Maplin has 2 modules, one is very similar, possibly identical to
one that Radio Shack used to have. The Maplin modules come assembled, 
you just need to add switches and external sensors. I saw one of these
two modules listed below (Maplin) in either www.grainger.com or 
www.mcmaster.com for an acceptable price also. 

	Heres the specs on the part # FP33. The biggest drawback is a 
maximum high temperature of 159.8 degrees F. 

Features:
          Temperature display in degrees C or F. 
          12-hour clock display. 
          Set minutes and hours of clock. 
          Temperature sampling rate once per second or once per 10 sec. 
          Set high and/or low temperature detector. 
          Output goes high when high temperature set point exceeded. 
          Separate output goes high when below low temperature set point
          Pulse output when either set point reached. 
          4kHz alarm output for 6 seconds after either set point reached.

          Probe type is Thermocouple type, external probe available (J
type?)
          Has serial data output

Specifications
          Range: -19.9 degC to 69.8 degC or O degF to159.8 degF 
          Resolution: 0.1?C, 0.1?F 
          Accuracy: -10 degC to +40 degC - 1 degC at 1.5V 
          -20 degC to -10 degC - 2 degC at 1.5V 
          +40 degC to +70 degC - 2 degC at 1.5V 
          Temperature set points:1 deg steps 
          Display: 31/2-digit 12.7mm high 
          LCD display Clock: 12 hour clock 
          Clock accuracy: ?0.5s/day 
          Working voltage: 1.5V (1.25V to 1.65V) 
          Average current: 15mA approx. 
          Battery life: >1 year 
          Overall size: 68 x 35 x 23mm deep 

For more info    http://www.qkits.com/serv/qkits/maplin/pages/FE33.asp

	Another choice is in the same series, it is capable of higher
temperature use, up to 230 degrees F, with an external high temp sensor. 
No serial data output. No clock function. Has Min / Max function.
I believe this one to be the most appropriate choice for us, primarily
due to the high temperature abilities. 

Features:
     Temperature display in degC or degF. 
     Set high or low temperature detector. 
     Output goes high when set points are exceeded. 
     Display high or low temperature settings. 
     Set sample rate to once every second or once per 15 seconds. 
     Pulse output when either set point is reached. 
     2kHz alarm output for approximately 1 minute when high or low
temperature point is reached. 
     Recall the lowest or highest temperature reached since last reset. 

For more info   http://www.qkits.com/serv/qkits/maplin/pages/FP64.asp

	Personally I would prefer to have LED displays since they are
visible from a distance, but for these prices I decided I would
sacrifice that option. 

 	If you dont wish to sacrifice the LED display, Velleman makes a
K6002 module that is also very capable, similar features to the above
units, but costs about 4x what the 2 above do, and I believe requires
complete assembly. 

	If you are looking for just a basic thermometer, there are 2
modules out there that appear good, one is LED and one is LCD, both are
in the $20 range. THey are based on the 7106/7107 IC and can be found
from most any electrical kit supplier. No limit or alarm functions on
these. There is plenty of engineering information available on this IC. 
For a look try: http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/meas/ck101.htm

	Hope I brought some options to those of you who have lighter
wallets than the PID controller folk. Maybe with what you save you can 
afford some solenoid valves or pumps or whatever you need. 

	Then theres always eBay.... lots of control devices there, search
for 'temperature' or 'thermocouple' and you will find plenty to bid on.

	No affilation yada yada... but Qkits was a pleasure to deal with.


Mike Teed, email at mteed at juno dot com


________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 13:38:12 EST
From: ThomasM923 at aol.com
Subject: It's a homebrew; no, it's a navigational aid...

Dan Listermann wrote recently concerning "bottle fur":

"When I noticed this interesting phenomenon ( pre - kegging days ) I used
mostly amber bottles that were always kept in cardboard cases in a rather
dark basement.  The area where the fur gathered was never exposed to light.
 I didn't have the presence of mind to note the geographic direction of the
fur.  Perhaps magnetism is at play <G>."

I have noticed this phenomenon more than once and always thought it had 
something to do with temperature. I stored my beer in cases against a cold 
cellar wall. The fur would show up on the sides of the bottles that faced 
opposite the wall (i.e., the warmer side). However, now that I think of it, 
that direction just happens to point directly north. Hmmm...;~)

Thomas Murray
Maplewood, NJ



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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 14:09:09 -0500
From: Paula & Jim <jimala at servtech.com>
Subject: temperature controlled fermentation chamber

Several folks  wanted to know about controlled-temperature chambers for
fermentation.
You can see mine  at :

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/

Basically, it's a box with a door. cooled with a hacked dehumidifier, and
heated with a 100 watt light bulb. So far, I have successfully used it with
outside temps in the 20F-95F range with no problem holding a particular
temperature.  Cost, about $50, with some scavenged parts and some bought new.

HTH, Jim

Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 16:12:30 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: Biere de Garde

Just had the opportunity to review several recent hbd's.  A group of us 
consumed about two dozen BDG's in a little cafe in northern France a year 
ago.  Only one had any musty, damp basement, or horse blanket aromas or 
flavors, and we had to stretch our senses to perceive it.  I guess that these 
flavors and aromas are the result of age more than anything else.  As such, 
the cork might be a factor as could something biological.

Bob Boland


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 20:55:39 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: fur orientation

Rick Foote asks - That static electricity thing
is an interesting theory, but what about orientation?  

Triangulate the fur from any three homebrewers' bottles and you'll find 
Jeff's house.

( It's also on your GPS abbreviated as COTHBU.)

Alan Talman
Figet Hut Brewing Company


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Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 21:15:25 EST
From: AlannnnT at aol.com
Subject: competition rules

John asked about entry limits in competitions.

One reason for limits, many homebrewers have a "house beer". I know from 
experience with these contests that one brewer may enter as many as 20 beers, 
all in the same category. 

This screws up the idea of a competition, which is designed around pitting 
your best against someone else's. It also makes it difficult to judge a 
category when this happens,  because of the small size of the judge panels. 
Contests like Brooklyn's bring in around 400 entries. The last thing they 
need is everything a brewer has ever made. They just want the best.  

I was a judging stouts at Best of Brooklyn two years ago. I'll never know for 
sure, but I'll bet that at least 6 of the stouts were from the same brewer. 
All suffered from the same exact flaws, mostly old age and terrible 
oxidation. It seemed that the brewer took all his old beer and entered it. 
This part is just conjecture of course, but you get the point. 

Alan Talman 


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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 12:54:49 EST
From: JSTanker at aol.com
Subject: kegging system

I need some suggestions on what is the best and easiest type of kegging 
system to purchase or put together, also where to get the system or parts

thanks for your help
jerry (personal emails ok)


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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 11:15:34 -0700
From: The Brews Traveler <BrewsTraveler at adamsco-inc.com>
Subject: All About Steinbier

For first time Steinbier brewers, to advance brewers, or anyone
wanting a little more information I have put together "All About
Steinbier" which hopefully you will find useful.

Everything from Steinbier's origins, the type of rocks, to how to
brew your own.  Hopefully this will help you attempt your first
batch or improve upon your next.

http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler/Main/howto/steinbier/

Let me know what you think and feel free to ask any questions.


- --
John Adams
The Brews Traveler
http://www.adamsco-inc.com/BrewsTraveler


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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 16:04:58 -0500
From: Pat Babcock <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: RE: Foam Stoppers

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

> Could you post some more information to the digest about your foam 
stoppers;
> where you got them, how re-usable they are, how easy to clean, etc?

Sure! I got them from William's Brewing, I sanitize them in iodophor 
(though they can be autoclaved). Never had to clean them since I only use 
them in stepping up cultures, and I do that in volumes (and a vessel) that 
(knock on wood) keep the kraeusen well away from the stopper. Based on its 
being autoclavable, I'd imagine you could clean it with any mild detergent, 
rinse thoroughly, then sanitize. They are open-celled foam, so you can 
clean them as you would a sponge - just be sure to get all the cleaners out 
of it, and sanitize afterward.


 -
See ya!
Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock/
"Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..."




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Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 22:48:53 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: Forced Carbonation 

I'm sure this question has been posed before, but I have been having
trouble keeping my kegs carbonated.  I shook them last time under 25 psi
until  i couldn't hear any more gas. The carbonation level was perfect
for a couple days, but when I kept the pressure at serving levels (10
psi is the highest I cat get with my too short 3 ft hose) the
carbonation slowly diminishes to a very low level (great for
Bitters!!)........  Can any one explain how much pressure, at what
temps.& how long ....do you shake or not......??

while I'm at it,  what's the formula to figure out dispensing, hose
length/diameter??

Thanks!
Private E-mails OK too
vspbcb at earthlink.net



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