HOMEBREW Digest #3253 Sat 19 February 2000

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		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  Counterphil (Aaron Perry)
  re: WYEAST (Dick Dunn)
  Pitching rates: Pivo Vs. Peev'd off (Bret Morrow)
  Ales (William Frazier)
  Temperature control / HBD Server (Terence Tegner)
  Where have You been Ted? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  all-grain brewing video ("Lyga, Daniel M.")
  FAN/amino acids in yeast nutrient ("Fred L. Johnson")
  FW: yeast, honey, scotch ale, tripel, ramblings ("Penn, John")
  liquid yeast in toronto (Rod Kwok)
  even more pitching rates. ("Dr. Pivo")
  Looking for conical bottom plastic fermenters ("Charles R. Stewart")
  Chicago beer ("Whyman Dental Lab, Inc")
  dry lager yeast? ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  On pitching rates ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Pensacola Beer Hunt (RCAYOT)
  Pitching rates (Dave Burley)
  Re: Yeast pitching ("J. Doug Brown")
  Wild Hops ("Acree, Patrick/CVO")
  RE: Creating "off" flavors in good beer (Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products)
  re: Looking for conical bottom plastic fermenters (Rich Lenihan)
  Water question (Jeff Lutes)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 00:08:08 -0400 From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net> Subject: Counterphil Last week or so I made a post in regards to using a counterphil on a keg carbonated with a carbonation stone. BAD MOVE!!! I'm not sure on the specifics of what went on, but the beer was some how pushed backwards??? sort of a reverse loop??? The CO2 usually is pumped into the headspace of the keg, with the stone, it bubbles up through the beer. I can't figure what's happening, all I can say is that it didn't work. I set it up and attempted bottling, failed, then bottled a braggot ( Regularly force carbonated-no stone) without incident. The braggot went so smoothly that I gave the stone carbonated brew a whirl again......Same thing!!! My procedure was Identical with both brews!!!! What went wrong with the stone?? Physics types, I plead to you...find me a solution, please! PS the stone works fine..as well a a 5-10 min shake...sooo....$20 = no leg or arm ache!!?? Return to table of contents
Date: 17 Feb 00 21:52:14 MST (Thu) From: rcd at raven.talisman.com (Dick Dunn) Subject: re: WYEAST Fred Scheer wrote, about Jim Liddil's comments about contamination of Wyeast cultures: > WYEAST produces a long time yeast cultures for any kind of fermentation, > and if there is a problem, one should consider to research the problem before > finger pointing. Liddil is an experienced homebrewer of no mean reputation, and he has written about his concerns in the past, backed up with what appears to be plausible testing. I think it fair to say he has "researched the problem". It really is time for some of the more skilled brewers among the rest of this group to attempt to address the problems he claims. > I don't know Jim Liddle or David Lodgsdon personally, but I believe if both > of them > have a 'cyber'' fight going on, it certainly don't belong in the HBD. On the contrary, if there are significant questions about Wyeast quality, there is hardly a better place to bring them up than right here. Wyeast is probably the most widely used brand of liquid-yeast cultures for homebrewers. We need to know. > It is hearting the business of WYEAST; it is not proven that a problem exist, I cannot tell, but I think you intended "hurting" when you wrote "hearting". I will respond as if you did. It is up to us (the homebrewing collective) to decide whether a problem exists. If Wyeast has a problem and they are not addressing it, then it can only be expected that their business will be hurt. But if there is no problem, then we on the HBD can help demonstrate that, and if anything Wyeast will be helped rather than hurt by the publicity. > so why take it to the extreme? WYEAST has a lot of experts on their stuff, > and as much as I know from past experience and talking with other Brewers, > they are very helpful in > resolving problems. So, please stay to Homebrew discussions, any other stuff > is not good for the small brewers. Discussions of the quality of yeast available to us is a "Homebrew discussion" as much as any topic that appears here. - --- Dick Dunn rcd at talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA ...Simpler is better. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 12:25:14 -0500 From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net> Subject: Pitching rates: Pivo Vs. Peev'd off Greetings, I always enjoy a nice series of keyboard testosterone! Lost in Pivo's post were, I believe, a couple of good points: 1) Yeast pitching rates that get taken as gosple on HBD are industrial-based. The goals of industrial based brewing are different than my own. The rate needed for Bud's daily production may or may not be the best for my 5 gall. of wort. I think a sensible approach would be to start at the "recommended rates" and adjust from there according to your own tastes and needs. Like Pivo, I will "underpitch" and ferment "cooler than recomended" with some beers--I like the results. There are lots of other differences between the techniques that big breweries and home or small scale use--ask George DePiro. On his suggestion, I brew my English bitters with some Munich malt, and love it! Not according to industrial brewing, but great results in my "brewery." 2) "Traditional breweries" do not brew like Bud. They are individual and quirky. Yingling brews a stout with a "lager" yeast--they have been doing it for a LONG time. The techniques these types of breweries use have evolved over many generations of brewmasters. The beer these breweries make can be very unstable over time, inconsistent, but also can be excellent. Their beer also can be "crap" (Pivo's word) at times. These points were, I believe lost in the post due to the massive chip on Pivo's shoulder. I hope he gets over his case of European elitism. Have a nice day, Bret Morrow Hamden, CT Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 06:50:15 +0000 From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Ales The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty writes "As for ales, I really have no idea 'cause I don't brew them -- I believe it was DeClerk who opined, "Generally speaking, ales are for little girls", but I could be wrong... Poe and I would disagree ~ Fill with mingled cream and amber, I will drain that glass again. Such hilarious visions clamber Through the chamber of my brain - Quaintest thoughts - queerest fancies Come to life and fade away; What care I how time advances? I am drinking ale today. (Poe, 1848) Regards from an ale & lager brewer Bill Frazier Olathe, Kansas House Ales -White Dog Ale, Redhawk and Black Crow (all named after favored pets or local critters) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:42:07 +0200 From: Terence Tegner <wheaties at mweb.co.za> Subject: Temperature control / HBD Server Greetings Fellow International Brewing Brethren There has been some traffic recently on the HBD about temperature controllers and there is a fair amount of reference in the various libraries which anyone can refer to but I have a simple solution which I will expound to you at length. BUILD YOUR OWN Having refered to all the above over the last few years, and having a need for a cheap controller in my craft brewery, I developed a unit based on what used to be available from Radioshack et al as a module. These temperature control units are now still available from Maplin mail order in the UK and around the world (hell, we even have a branch in South Africa.). Based on this unit I constructed a controller with the following features.: 1. totally digital with LCD display 2. separate upper and lower temperature settings.(variable delta). 3. built in solid state relay to control 220 volt AC at 8 or 25 amps (120 volt aswell) ability to use 12v DC for remote SSR control. 4. cooling or heating control by the throwing of a switch. 5. battery backup 6. and as a bonus, it displays the time when you switch it off. I have used several of these units over many months and found them to be totally reliable. One of them controls 12 KW heaters in my hot liquor vessel. Having now blatantly advertised the product (for which I have no guilt), let me explain the ultimate plan. I have the wiring diagrams and a drawing of the perf board layout available to anyone who wants it with one condition. You pay a token $5.00 to our HBD server fund. The boss will let me know who you are and I will Email the instructions and drawings to you with a promptness that will stager you. The reason for this plan is that I have been a lurker and sometimes poster to the HBD for many years and for me to send US$ and pay for them with our monopoly money is not a good proposition. If you like the idea and if the janitor / boss is agreable, let's start the ball rolling. Regards to all Terence Tegner (AKA Phail) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 23:31:50 +1100 From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au> Subject: Where have You been Ted? Ted McIrvine writes: >It is a scary concept... personally I prefer people who post using their >real names. Not only may this increase the level of civility, perhaps >posters will take the trouble to spell decently. Assuming a fake title >and then presenting some ideas with substandard literacy is distressing >to me. > > PIVO(S): Nothing to be scared of Ted, you too can be a Pivo if you just take that silly "Mc" out of your name. Ted goes on to say: >Fusel alcohol production is a bigger >danger with lowe pitching rates especially at higher fermentation What's a "lowe pitching" Jeff? Sorry, that was Ted. Don't tell us Ted you too have a propensity for indecent spelling. Stone the crows! How many pivos can we fit into this HBD? This is all too much for me, I'm slipping out the back to flog a wombat! Phil Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 07:45:18 -0500 From: "Lyga, Daniel M." <lygadm at pweh.com> Subject: all-grain brewing video hello. I was wondering if anyone knows of a source for an all-grain hombrewing video. Most of the videos you see advertised deal primarily with extract brewing and are really geared toward the beginner. Thank you in advance for any help. Dan Lyga Harwinton, Ct. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:03:41 -0500 From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net> Subject: FAN/amino acids in yeast nutrient To the yeast culture experts out there: Could someone provide a brief summary of 1) the requirement for free amino nitrogen by yeast for growth, (i.e. is free amino nitrogen "required" for growth or just to prevent fusel alcohol production?) 2) the amino acid requirements by yeast for growth 3) the concentrations of the above that can be expected in all grain worts, and 4) the situations in which supplements to the wort might be required? In regard to the above questions, I have seen diammonium phosphate as a common ingredient in "yeast nutrients". Is this to prevent fusel alcohol production, or is this to enhance yeast growth, or are these issues not related? Protein hydrolysates and peptones are also typcially found in "yeast nutrients". Apparently amino acid concentrations can be deficient at times. I assume these are necessary under conditions in which amino acid concentrations are low (musts?). I also have seen added thiamine in mixtures of "yeast nutrients" or "energizers" for homebrewers. I assume this is an essential amino acid that con be deficient in worts (or perhaps only in musts). I would like to better understand the driving force behind fusel alcohol production (which, of course, can be a flavor problem with beer) versus the limitations on yeast growth. I wish to better understand the issues behind making yeast versus making beer, so that I can control these at the APPROPRIATE TIME during the process. Culturing yeast for brewing is not the same as brewing beer, and the two processes should not be confused. - -- Fred L. Johnson Apex, North Carolina USA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:42:45 -0500 From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu> Subject: FW: yeast, honey, scotch ale, tripel, ramblings My post got deleted somehow, so I am resending. JP > -----Original Message----- > From: Penn, John > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2000 10:34 AM > To: 'post@hbd.org' > Subject: yeast, honey, scotch ale, tripel, ramblings > > 2 lbs of honey would yield about 68 pts or so in that beer and I would > tend to agree that if you pitch enough yeast you should be OK. I've also > read that since honey lacks the nutrients of malt, if you use a large > percentage of honey it may cause longer fermentations. Using Nottingham > yeast I never had a problem with Papazian's Rocky Raccoon beer which is > 1/3 honey but I did have a strange/long fermentation with that same recipe > when I used Wyeast's Bavarian Lager yeast. As for oxygenation, pitching > rates, etc., a lot is yeast dependent. For those who consistently > underpitch and are happy with their results that's fine. But the 10X rule > of thumb (ales) is a good number if you want consistently short lag times > and good results. Short lag times of course are also "qualitative" > depending on temperature, yeast type, sanitation procedures, etc. Some of > you who are underpitching may not realize that you are seeing the results > of underpitching by having beers that continue to carbonate over time > achieving gushers. Gushers can be an indication of infection or tired, > underpitched yeast. And if you ever try to make a strong beer (>7% abv) > you better pitch a lot of yeast! > Finally got around to trying to brew my Scotch Ale that was so good > from a couple of years ago. I was worried about duplicating that > wonderful result because the key was boiling 4# of malt in 1 gallon of > water for 2 hours and just when it had been boiling calmly it was just > about to leap out of the pot as almost all of the water had boiled off and > the carmelized wort was about the consistency of syrup. Charlie Burns on > the HBD recommended this carmelizing of malt for scotch ales and the > result was wonderful. Well I'm happy to say that the other night's scotch > ale also almost overflowed twice as it boiled down. I didn't boil it as > long as last time but it had definately thickened up and darkened in > color. The other shortcut I took, due in part to laziness, was using my > available Nottingham dry yeast (oh, so convenient) in place of Wyeast > Scottish Ale yeast. The rest of the procedure was pretty much the same as > the recipe I posted a couple years ago or so and I'm hopeful that it will > be just as good or at least close. Last time I had two pots on the oven > for the scotch ale, one for the carmelized boil and one for the rest of > the malt, hops, etc. This time I was overambitious and had three pots on > the oven. I was looking at 3 pots at once thinking "what a fool am I?". > But luckily I didn't have any overflowing pots and both beers seem to be > actively fermenting. The scotch ale and a Belgian Tripel. Recipes as > follows (normal extract procedures): > > McPenn Scotch Ale II (4.5 gallons ~1.092 OG est. ~41 IBU est.) > 4# of M&F light extract in 3/4 gallon of water boiled down to syrupy > consistency > 7# M&F light extract plus 1# honey in 2.25 gallon boil > 5 oz Roasted Barley steeped ~160F > 12.5 HBUs Northern Brewer Hops (45-50 mins) > Nottingham Dry Yeast (made ~0.6 gallon starter since I only had 1 pkt) > > Belgian Triple (4 gallons ~1.084 OG est. ~36 IBU est.) > 7# M&F light extract in 2 gallon boil > 0.5# honey in boil > 28 oz glucose at end of boil (2-14 oz boxes from Indian grocery store) > 10 HBUs Northern Brewer Hops (45-50 mins) > 3/4 oz Hallertau Hops (1 min) > Duvel yeast (cultivated starter multiplied up to 2L starter-2nd > generation) > > The duvel yeast had been used previously for a dubbel and had been > in my refrigerator for a couple of months and tasted OK though it gave off > some sulphury smell at one point which was reminscient of some lager > yeasts. Maybe I have some wild yeasts in there which might be a plus for > a belgian style. My exploding stout II seems to taste much better than my > last attempt though my early sample had not carbonated yet. Couldn't > resist. I'll let you know how these turn out. They are happily > fermenting now. > John Penn > Eldersburg, MD > Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:41:59 -0500 (EST) From: Rod Kwok <rdkwok at zoo.utoronto.ca> Subject: liquid yeast in toronto hi, i was hoping that someone on this news group could point me towards a source for liquid yeast in toronto or at least in ontario. i've contacted white labs (a while ago) and their closest source i think was in ohio. i don't think i got and answer from wyeast. my problem with mail order from the states is that the shipping rates are usually double (or more) when the package passes the border. thanks, rod. _______________________________________________________________________ rod kwok department of zoology phone: (416) 978-4602 university of toronto facsimile: (416) 978-3522 25harbord st e-mail: rdkwok at zoo.utoronto.ca toronto, on m5s 1a1 _______________________________________________________________________ Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:03:44 +0100 From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se> Subject: even more pitching rates. I suppose I shouldn't have jumped all over Alan Meeker with my snide remarks.... But really! Phil Yates' wombat is really starting to pong. The cat that he has fashioned with an artificial second anus is truely a gruesome sight. Couple that with a view of the Baron of Burradoo rolling around on his front lawn with a mildewing corpse of Marilyn Monroe, and I JUST HAD TO WRITE IT! I should really address Mister Meeker's comments more seriously ("Meeker?".... isn't that what is known in English as a missnomer or a malapropism? Who could he possibly be "meeker" than?) Mr. M expressed concerns that my observation of a low pitching rate and low temperature regime together was actually two variables did not come as what we call a "great revelation". Since this was 15 years ago, and his mother was quite possibly still wiping the "dooty" from his backside, I didn't feel a need to inform him then. What I did feel a need to do was pick apart these two variables, and by always separating my wort into at least two batches, find out exactly what was going on. I think I have a pretty goods idea now. I've found out a bunch of other stuff too.... f'rinstance: If you treat the wort rough as guts, and run it through a blind tasting alongside one which one has stringantly tried to avoid HSA, no-one can tell the difference. Another good one, is if you put a 500 watt halogen lamp right up to a bottle for 30 minutes, and then cool it back down, it can't be found as "skunkier" by a blind panel from one that is not similarly misshandled. These sort of funny little 'spurnments give me a bit of perspective on what I should and shouldn't worry about. Now here are some things that i think DO have an affect on final flavour. Pitching rates, ammount of oxygen exposure and WHEN it is applied, fermenter geometry, and naturally, fermentation temps. And what are the optimal levels of these things? I can't tell you that. I can tell you what they aren't, and that is the absolutes that are oft cited here. I can also tell you how you can find out. If you believe there is an "optimal pitching rate", split your wort into two exact portions, pitch half at that rate, and the other half at exactly half..... next time you might want to try double-. It won't take you long to have a pretty good idea what is going on. Now if you really want to make sure that you are not just reinforcing your own preconceptions, invite some good beer knowledgable folks over for a blind tasting (why not a "triangle test"). As was mentioned here, you may find you have to walk down entirely different paths with different yeast strains I enjoy reading when ol' AJ DeLange measures something in his lab. Yep, it's always a joy to hear when he's been playing with his test tube (no joke intended, AJ.... well, maybe a little one.... now that particular residue is what i call a "Bodensatz", Alan McKay). But if you aren't just "measuring stuff" but want to make some comments on flavour, you just can't do it on your own. That's what cheeses me so much about the dominant voices on this forum.... they always report from the literature, and then confirm it with a lot of anecdotal reports from serial brewing. I've often wondered why they don't do some controlled testing and then avail themselves of a blind tasting panel. I have two theories: A) their egos are so large that they consider their own opinions infallable. B) They don't have any friends that they can invite to a blind tasting. I'm beginning to suspect the latter. I suppose I could take on this "pitching task" again, but I'm in the middle of some "boiling time" 'spurments. You see, being a cretin and a slob can sometimes be quite usefull. I once got tied up in something and left the kettle on the boil for 4 hours. I had to dilute back the wort, and surprisingly, I got that "tarry, malty" middle ground that i describe the "decoction taste" as. As others have noted, it is quite similar to the melanoidin taste in specialty grains, but not "quite" the same. I haven't done a decoction since, as it sort of dawned on me that maybe these amino acids and sugars will marry anytime in the porocess they are heated up long enough. So now I have about 250 litre merrily bubbling away with different aspects of "pure pilner 4 hour boils" or "pilsner plus muenchner 1 hour boils". I'm sure it will be quite a while before I have anything worthwhile to say about it. And while we are on the subject, another of the Dr. Pivos ( a former student) has begun brewing "concentrates". He mashes out an OG of about 110 and directly after the boil dilutes it to his desired OG with cold water and pitches direct. I suppose there could be a lot of theoretical arguments about why one shouldn't do that, but his beer is just lovely. The real joy, is that he has been giving "stove top lessons", and has introduced three new brewers and revived two flagging ones.... it seems it is popular to double your stove top caapacity and be able to skip the cooling phase. Now, I really like that.... figure something out on your own, work with it until you have a handle on it, and then go and share it with others. It's a pity this forum doesn't work that way. Dr. Pivo (It is becoming increasingly apparent that i need to go work in an English speaking country again, as my syntax, grammar and spelling are getting more and more incomprehensable.... This winter I opted for the North of Africa, and lo and behold, found in a fundamentally Islamic land (in Casa Blanca) a commercial lager superior to the ones I've tasted in the US.... wonder why that is?) Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:02:15 -0500 From: "Charles R. Stewart" <CStewart at dc.bhb.com> Subject: Looking for conical bottom plastic fermenters On Thu, 17 Feb 2000, Joseph Gibbens <jgibbens at umr.edu> asked: > Anyone know where I can find a plastic conical bottom > fermenter that can > handle a 10 gal batch size? The SS conical project is not > looking hopefull. Joseph, although it's smaller than you were looking for, I've been thinking about ordering the affordable conical fermenter at http://members.aol.com/aconical/. I wonder if the manufacturer makes or would consider making a larger unit of there was enough interest? If you want to contact them, you can count me in! Chip Stewart Charles at TheStewarts.com http://Charles.TheStewarts.com Pursuant to United States Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II, Section 227, any and all unsolicited commercial e-mail (spam) sent to this address is subject to a download and archival fee of US$500.00. The sending or forwarding of such e-mail constitutes acceptance of these terms. Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:46:55 -0700 From: "Whyman Dental Lab, Inc" <whymandl at milehigh.net> Subject: Chicago beer I will be in downtown Chicago without a car Feb. 24 - 27. Where are the best brewpubs and tap houses. I read some reviews of RiverWest Brewpub that were not too good. Anyone been there recently? Any homebrew stuff happening on these dates? Thanks, RogerWhyman Englewood, CO Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:51:31 -0500 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: dry lager yeast? I noticed it is often mentioned that, "there are no good dry lager yeasts, none that have true lager characteristics." Does anyone know _what_characteristics are referenced in this *momily* ? Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:51:44 -0500 From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com> Subject: On pitching rates Someone questioned the commonly accepted pitching rates oft quoted. I assume they are referring to the 10e6/ml. Where does this come from they asked? From sterol levels. A good average population for wort at high kraeusen is 100e6/ml. Working with the known fact that yeast are limited by sterol levels to 3 generations before they deplete their sterols levels; 100e6/2=50e6, 50e6/2=25e6, 25e6/2=12.5. There you go, 3 generations must start with 12.5e6 cells. That would be fine if all those 12.5e6 cells were the same generation. But since we must be raising this population from a simgle cell somewhere, the first few generations are scarred from repeated divisions to the point they will not divide further. So counting on the _minimum_ pitching rates to finish the fermentation is dubious at best. Further complications come from that in any population some individuals will succumb to environmental stresses prematurely, this is particularly noticable in high gravity worts where the recommendation is "double the pitching rate". This is to provide for the increased attrition due to alcohol stress and leave an additional generation around to successfully complete the fermentation. So the recommended pitching rates aren't to make the "best beer" they are to make a beer that at least finishes at predicted final gravity; assuming of course you built the starter with enough FAN to have pitching yeast that are saturated with sterols, and also assuming your wort has enough FAN and oxygen to replenish the sterols of the 1/8 of your pitching yeast that already had divided 3 times and can't divide until they rebuild their sterols. Return to table of contents
Date: 18 Feb 2000 09:23:26 -0500 From: RCAYOT at solutia.com Subject: Pensacola Beer Hunt From Richard; Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:09:16 -0500 From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com> Subject: Pensacola Beer Hunting Dear Richard, GOOD LUCK! I have been living in Pensacola for three years now and it is the Sahara Desert of beer! There are no beer/liquor super-stores that I was used to in the norteast. Some of the Delchamps Liquor stores carry a respectible selection of Belgians, Grimberger, a few others. You could usually find a good selection of Unibrue products, some of which are very high in alcohol, and very good I might add. There is a pub or two in town that you should try to visit, the best one I have found is Brews Brothers in Navy Blvd. They have aobut 20 or so taps, and the selection always varies, dectnt bottle selection too. the other place to try is McGuires Irish pub and brewery, they have some good beers there as well. Some of the deli's have imported beers, but my experience is that they are very very old, and not worth the money. Roger Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:48:38 -0500 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Pitching rates Brewsters: Despite his protestations otherwise, George DeP and I agree that there are examples in which underpitching by commercial standards may be beneficial to increasing the "yeast flavor" contribution to beer. George provides his example of a weizen which is "underpitched". As most brewers know, the weizen yeast is a major flavor provider in this style and one of the many parameters including fermentation temperature and wort composition is the pitching rate. To be clear on this, I do not recommend that you go back to pitching a 5 gram packet of dry yeast or a small Wyeast packet, necessarily. These may be the minimum amounts to prevent substantial contamination of a brew. I would not suggest you go below these levels, but you could, obviously. The risk is non-reproducibility, poor taste and contamination. This may a quantification of my "middle position" I was suggesting brewers try. Commercial pitching rates on one hand and the equivalent of a 5 gram dry packet on the other. You will probably brewers do to avoid excessive "off flavors" from yeast growth and contamination. My point, like "Dr. Pivo's", is that slavish adherence to a rule of thumb, "commercial pitching rate", will remove another parameter from your brewing palette. Try brewing the same wort, split into several different fermenters and you will find the taste profile difference which pitching can produce with the yeast and wort of choice.You may even choose to underpitch a small amount of wort and blend this to taste into the larger beer after fermentation to get a consistent contribution of this flavor. As both George and I said, it will depend on the yeast, how strong is this dependence. Once you understand this, then you can adopt the style you choose based on quality, not based on the creativity stifling economic considerations many commercial brewers suffer. I always recommend using a starter and increasing the yeast pitching level above that of the "normal" beginning homebrewer levels and am therefore in agreement with past admonitions to "pitch more yeast". Just be aware that pitching level can have an important contribution to the flavor characteristic and use it to produce unique beers. Using more yeast will reduce this dependency which may or may not be what you want. I think that is what we are all saying. - --------------------------- David Potter asks if anyone is pitching 1.5 gallons of starter into 5 gallons of brew. I suppose some are, but I don't recommend it as it will upset your wort composition and you will incorporate flavors contributed from yeast growth, which you may or may not desire ,especially if you oxygenated the starter continuously by stirring. Chill your starter overnight or longer and pour off the starter beer, taste the starter beer for contamination potential and pitch the slurry if the beer tastes OK. I also suggest you use the HBD archives to help pull together the many thoughts on this subject. - ----------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 12:57:12 -0500 From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at mteer.com> Subject: Re: Yeast pitching Hello, My normal procedures for makeing a starter were to rehydrate 1 pack of EDME dry ale yeast in a 12 fl. oz. starter made using 3 cups water and 1/3 cup Plain Light DME. This yeast growth medium was boiled for 10 min cooled and added to 1 cleaned and sanitized beer bottle. Next the yeast was added and an airlock attached to the top. When I pitch this starter(still active) into my 6.5 gal glass carboy (primary) I normally see airlock activity within 1 - 4 hours. This range of lag times seems to be porpotional to the amount of aereation I expose my cooled wort to. I have noted that lack of aeration seems to cause to yeast to produce CO2 sooner rather than later. I believe this is due to aereated wort allowing the yeast to aerobically grow and reproduce. I have stepped up my starter to 1 gal using the same 3:1/3 ratio as mentioned before. I have let the 1 gal starter grow for 1 day before chilling to concentrate the yeast on the bottom prior to pitching in the primary. I plan on brewing an English Brown Ale tonight. My question are these: If I use a larger starter volume ie 1 gal. instead of 12 fl. oz. should I still aereate my wort in the primary? I am thinking along the lines of less aereation quicker alcohol production and more inhospital environment for the bad stuff. Or should I briefly aereate the primary to allow the yeast to reproduce and form a much larger colony to out compete with the bad guys. When rehydrating a pack of yeast, what volume should we assume the yeast should fill? When following the 10x stepping rule I don't want to drastically under, or over shoot the 10x rule when rehydrating in my starter container. Is a 12 fl. oz. beer bottle a good starting size then step up to 1 gal? I know that a smack pack has a volume and can be easily follow the 10x rule, however the dry yeast are not rehydrated so their volume couldn't be used. I have been using Edme ale dry yeast for all my batches so far. I have heard that Edme was bought out and would no longer be producing yeast. Are there any recommendations for a good English brown ale yeast in dry form? I have thought about using smack packs, however I'm not sure how long they may be kept prior to using. Thanks for your information and experience Doug Brown - -- J. Doug Brown - Fairmont, WV Sr. Software Engineer jbrown at mteer.com jbrown at ewa.com www.labs.net/kbrown www.ewa.com Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:19:31 -0700 From: "Acree, Patrick/CVO" <pacree at ch2m.com> Subject: Wild Hops I made an interesting discovery this past fall while chopping through 10 yards of Blackberry bushes. Hops and lots of them, I was chopping a path though the berries to get to slough to duck hunt and had hop petals raining down on me. Kinda like being in beer heaven, the aroma was amazing. The question I have for you all is when is the best time to dig for rhyzomes, and what the heck does a ryhzome look like other than a root like growth? These hops are growing in the mid Willamette Valley in Oregon if anyone is interested send me an e-mail. Patrick Acree Corvallis, OR N 44035'55.2" W 123016'8.11" When you disarm your subjects you offend them by showing that either from cowardliness or lack of faith, you distrust them; and either conclusion will induce them to hate you. Niccolo Machiavelli "The Prince" Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 13:35:10 -0500 From: Mark_Ohrstrom/Humphrey_Products at humphreypc.com Subject: RE: Creating "off" flavors in good beer Has anyone on the list attended the Budweiser Mobile Beer School? Was it worthwhile? I believe that part of the "curriculum" involves sampling defect-doped beers. Mark in Kalamazoo Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 16:28:31 -0500 From: Rich Lenihan <richX at openadmin.com> Subject: re: Looking for conical bottom plastic fermenters At one time I contemplated just such a beast. The closest thing I could find was an 18 gallon storage tank from U.S. Plastic Corp. in Ohio. The price was a bit high for me at the time ($130) but the tank looked like it would do the job and came with its own stand. You can check it out yourself at http://www.thomasregister.com/olc/usplastic/tanks39.htm I've purchased other products from U.S. Plastic in the past and have been satisfied with their service and prices. They have an excellent selection of tubing and fittings. Good luck. Rich Lenihan Sharon, MA Return to table of contents
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 22:24:16 -0600 From: Jeff Lutes <jlutes at osprey.net> Subject: Water question I have been doing extract brewing for years and am preparing to start grain brewing with a slightly different RIMS system (custom-built...hopefully it'll work, has some new features). I just got a water report from my local util and I wanted to know how it looks. I'm interested in knowing if there's anything I should be adding for all-grain or extract (like gypsum or yeast food) and if there's other things I should remove. Ph = 6.8 Ca = 24 ppm Chlorides = 7 ppm Sulfates = 20 ppm Nickel = 1 ppb Iron = 39 ppb Manganese = 3 ppb Zinc = 7 ppb Thanks in advance, Gemus Brauen Haus...in the middle of it all! Return to table of contents
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