---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  re: The ULTIMATE truth! ("Stephen Alexander")
  RE: Trials & errors of a beginner (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Double Double Day (MVachow)
  Announcing South Shore Brewoff 2000 ("Reed,Randy")
  strange flavor (Marc Sedam)
  High gravity pitching rate (JSTanker)
  re step mashin in a boiler (Robin Griller)
  Thanks Again ("Bill Bunning")
  First Wort Hopping ("Bill Bunning")
  Water analysis (Scott Johnson)
  aerating meads (Aaron Perry)
  Horehound beer. ("Colin Marshall")
  Aluminum Pots ("Tim Green")
  Bill Pfeiffer ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Lactic acid adjustment, sticky in CO (Dave Burley)
  Burnt liquor (OSULLS)
  Re: Enameled Kettle Handles (KMacneal)
  Re: Brew pot construction (KMacneal)
  question: chilling ales in the secondary ? ("Darrell Leavitt")
  Weizen ("A. J. deLange")
  Re: Fruit Beer Sludge ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: lactic acid ("Martin Brungard")
  Enameled Kettle Handles (Jack Baty)
  temperature controllers (Jeremy Bergsman)
  Re: Enameled Kettle Handles (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Re-pitching (Jeff Renner)
  Re: enameled kettle handles ("Sieben, Richard")
  autolysis/musty (Dana Edgell)
  Yeast Growth ("Scholz, Richard")
  Easy Acid Wash Technique? (Kevin Basso)
  false bottoms and mash stirring (Joseph Gibbens)
  Brewtek CL-380 Saison yeast (Randy Ricchi)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 11:36:33 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: The ULTIMATE truth!

Rich Siebel asks ...
>Please leave doc Pivo alone,  I find him a fun part of the HBD.  I don't
>agree with him all the time, but I enjoy his comments just the same.

I enjoy Pivo too, but I refuse to join the cult.  If he wants to spout his
odd views of fermentation they deserve to be examined, same as
anyone else.
- --

Dave Sapsis rambles about me for a bit ...
>Seems to me what he does is offer a current understanding of
>topics as they relate to threads that arise here.  I never once heard him
>say unqualified to "use high pitching rates".  Why others are challenged by
>his research synposes baffles me. [...]

Nice to see that someone 'gets it'.  It baffles me too Dave.  To some
I'm the poster boy for uptight brewing - they are 'reading into' instead
of just reading.  I never have suggested a dogmatic pitching rate nor
much else dogmatic  I am willing to support POVs by citing my
experience or the more qualified experience that appears as journal
experiments. That doesn't make it so - it just makes it true in some
set of experiences.  I don't even reject Pivo's statement, that you
could produce a desirable effects WHILE underpitching.  But I also
have enough experience & reading to know that there is more to it
than just underpitching and getting an improved beer.

> I also dont think I ever heard him reject triangle tests
>as a valid protocol for assessing outcomes.  Steve, whacha think of
>triangle tests?

This is another Pivoly, Dave. I did a triangle test at my club meeting
last month, and another among some friends last week and several
others earlier in the year. It's a great way to get good comparative
results with  some real statistical meaning with a modest number of
samples.

- --

Scott Murman notes ... re: pitching rates, etc.
>there are many beginning brewers who come
>to the HBD for advice, and simply need help with the basics.

I agree Scott, and one of the basics is that a underpitching is
generally a formula for poor beer.  If someone suggests otherwise
lets examine the claim in the light of day. Not hidden among some
mumbo-jumbo.

>it would be nice
>if the more advanced brewers would consider a dialogue of sharing
>different techniques and reasonings, rather than simply critiques of
>others, IMO.  there's more than one way to swing a cat.

Every such post turns into a fight here Scott.  I got a lot of positive
comments re my recent amino/fusels postings, but I also
got a lot of 'anti' posts .  Some made legitimate points,
but some were motivated by personal animus. If you can figure
out how to filter out the name-calling and only permit legitimate
rebuttal I'd love to hear about it.
- --

Speaking of the descent into name-calling ...
Pivo writes ...

>Little Stevie Wonder berates and distrusts my not presenting any
>exact numbers..

Not numbers, and not distrust.  I want a procedure to show the effect
you see - not just a bunch of blather about 'less is better' - 'try it and
see'.  Pivo argues that I am guilty of following preconceptions and
ignoring experience. In fact that is exactly what his followers do when
they ignore the well and publicly executed experiments published in
journals and adhere to vague suggestions from a self-styled guru.

As it turns out, once the details are provided Pivo's claim vanishes.

>[...]
>Thou shall choose the yeast called Edme.  Thou shallt pitch at the rate
>of one half gram per litre.

ONE HALF GRAM PER LITER !!!

I don't know about Edme, but Lallemand suggests 0.512 grams per
liter [60gm/bbl] to commercial brewers.  And Rob Moline suggested
the same rate here to HBers.  I guess Pivo *has* divulged the
"ULTIMATE truth".  He pitches at textbook rates and thinks he is
underpitching.

>You do know Steve that you are absolutley NEVER going to do the above,
[...]

There is no hypothesis worth testing here.  Why didn't you just post
that you underpitch by 2% and like the result ?  What a yawn.
I really thought you were trying to say something interesting.

>I have already surmised why you do not avail yourself of blind tastings.

Apparently Pivo's converted up-the-kilt spy-cam is malfunctioning.
I've performed two blind tastings in the past month - one at my local club.
I've been doing blind 2-way tasting of wine for almost 15 years. I just love
it when someone I've never met tells me what I have or haven't been
doing; it immediately identifies the person as both arrogant and foolish,
and precludes the need for further discussion.

Steve




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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:30:11 -0600
From: rlabor at lsumc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: Trials & errors of a beginner

>From: "Wayne or Cathy Love" <lovews at auracom.com>

>...if some kind soul could take the time to
>prepare a list of the most often used abbrev. and acronyms and what they
stood
>for....

Wayne, I only have one, but it's my favorite: ROFL (Rolling On Floor
Laughing).  I use it often when reading the HBD battles and petty wars some
people get into over silly things.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsumc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 10:58:05 -0600
From: MVachow at newman.k12.la.us
Subject: Double Double Day

This prescription is for those of you who don't have time to belong to a
club, who brew in fits and starts when the time pops up, or who cram brew
sessions into the wee hours of the night or the dim hours of the morning.
For those brewers who have participated in club brew days, page down.
	1--Ask your boss for a day off.
	2--Spend the two weeks before the day off preparing recipes,
starters, assembling gear, etc.  
	3--Clear your day off schedule of all other obligations.  
	4--Get two or more brewers' gear and said brewers in same location
for simultaneous batches.
	5--Spend the day brewing, jawing, enjoying the weather, etc.

This past Friday (76F and sunny), a brewing pal and I hooked up for a double
double.  We mashed in the first two batches at 0830 and put the final two
batches in the carboys at 1900.  Something mighty gratifying about seeing 72
pounds of malt transformed into 40 gallons of beer--edifying too, as little
else in my day-to-day work yields such tangible and immediate rewards.
Gives a guy a little perspective.

Mike
New Orleans, LA


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 12:40:14 -0500
From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
Subject: Announcing South Shore Brewoff 2000

Everyone - 

South Shore Brewoff 2000 
BJCP registered 
Southern Massachusetts
April 8th, 2000 

South Shore Brew Club is proud to present its fifth annual public
competition providing high quality judging. Each year, the club strives to
provide home brewers with constructive, objective feedback on their home
made entries. We also hold the competition to allow more of our members to
get involved with judging and stewarding. The BJCP judging level at this
"boutique" competition has been very high in the past, with many national,
certified, recognized, and even national ranked judges. 


In summary:


Date: April 8th 2000 8AM doors open, 9 AM judging starts 

Beer, Cider and Mead accepted 

BJCP current style guidelines will be used. Please see BJCP Style Guidelines
<http://www.mv.com/ipusers/slack/bjcp/style-index.html>  

Entry deadline is April 1st, 2000. No entries accepted after 4-1-00.
Beers will be accepted between 

March 25 and April 1 during normal store hours. 
BJCP registered, points will be awarded 

Shipping and Drop-off locations: Please see web site below
Cost $5 per entry, $4 each for 5 or more entries 

Please check the club web site for event updates and forms
South Shore Brew Club Website:  http://members.aol.com/brewclub/
<http://members.aol.com/brewclub/>   Organizer:  Francois Espourteille
(francois at ici.net) Judge Coordinator:  Steve Rose 508-821-4152


South Shore Brew Club - In Search of the Perfect Pint.


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 13:37:01 -0500
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: strange flavor

Hey all:

Last week I sampled 4oz of lagering CAP from my chest
freezer, a.k.a. the "fermentation station".  The flavor was
unmistakably *soapy*, i.e. it tasted just like someone put a
few dashes of Palmolive in my beer.  The head was fine, and
since I don't use soap on my equipment, I didn't think it
was a surfactant.  Fearing death of the batch, I let it be
for another week.  The next sample had absolutely no sense
of this flavor--very strange.

I know a soapy flavor can come from ferments which sit on
the hot/cold break for a while, but is there any other
source?  I thought I might have oversparged the batch, but
there was no astringency associated.  Frankly, outside of
the soapiness it tasted fine.  From my readings I couldn't
imagine a scenario where the flavor would disappear but it
has.  Anyone seen this?


 -
Marc Sedam



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:03:14 EST
From: JSTanker at aol.com
Subject: High gravity pitching rate

Sorry to ask a question that may lead to another long list of pitching rate 
discussions, but I a new to all of this and have not been able to find my 
answer in all the archives.

If I am brewing a high gravity beer (ie. dopplebock) with an estimated 
original gravity of 1.080 + and I pitch a Wyeast 2308 stepped to 1 1/2 
gallons of starter, will my final gravity be ok or do I need to supplement it 
with something like Champagne yeast ?    Hope this is not too dumb of a 
question.

Thanks,   Jerry


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 19:35:32 -0500
From: Robin Griller <rgriller at chass.utoronto.ca>
Subject: re step mashin in a boiler

HI,

re step mashing in an electric boiler;

I've step mashed in my bruheat a couple of times without any untoward
incidents. The key, I think, is that you have to raise the temperature
very slowly. A step mash should be increased no more than 1-2C/minute. I
normally go for 1 degree C/minute increase. To do this, you turn the
control so the heat is just pulsing. If you turn the thermostat up so
that it is on continuously it will burn the grain quickly. Hope this
helps.

Robin


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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:42:42 -0600
From: "Bill Bunning" <bunz at pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Thanks Again

Just wanted to post a thanks to the digest manager, Karl Lutzen, for
honoring a promise made quite a while ago.  Around the time Karl and Mark
Stevens were collecting recipes for their collaboration on "More Homebrew
Recipes", I submitted a recipe for an American Wheat.  It had done well in
competitions and I thought it would be a worthwhile addition to the book.
They informed me that if the recipe was included, I would receive a
complimentary copy.  At the time I lived in Virginia.  Since then, I have
moved to Florida.  I didn't think much of it until I ran into the book at a
homebrew supply shop in Tacoma, Washington, a couple of weeks ago, and found
my recipe in the book.  I found Karl's e-mail through the HBD and fired off
a request for the book since I had never received mine.  Karl replied
immediately and informed me a book was on the way.  It is a special person
who honors a promise made around 4 years ago.  Thank you Karl.

Bill Bunning



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 18:42:58 -0600
From: "Bill Bunning" <bunz at pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: First Wort Hopping

I know this has been covered here before many times but I was wondering how
exactly do you "first wort hop"?

Bill Bunning



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:27:00 -0800
From: Scott Johnson <JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Water analysis

I called and had my water company send me an analysis of my local
water.  This is the last six months of 1999 average.
Here are some of the numbers:
pH:  7.77
Total Solids (mg/L):  166
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (ppm):  72
Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm):  94
Sulfate (ppm):  30
Calcium (ppm):  26.5
Magnesium (ppm):  6.4
Sodium (ppm):  12.7

The report does not include carbonate or bicarbonate.
What I would like to know:
1.  Is there a way to find both carbonate and bicarbonate figures with
the numbers above?
2.  What styles of beer are good with the above water?
3.  What is the overall quality of this water?  Good, bad or a little of
both.
4.  Any information on the above water is appreciated.

If you need any more figures I would be glad too send them to you.

Scott
Skyline Brewery



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:20:38 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <vspbcb at earthlink.net>
Subject: aerating meads

Hello all, 
I've made a few meads and never bothered to aerate before pitching.  I heat
the full volume of water with the honey and chill, rather than heating the
honey with some water and adding to more cold water.  So,to aerate or not to
aerate? Any insight would be great.

Thanks 
Aaron Perry


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:18:28 +1100
From: "Colin Marshall" <byoah at argay.com.au>
Subject: Horehound beer.

Could some kind soul please give me a recipe for horehound beer, and one for
old-fashioned, non-alcoholic hop beer (bleeecch - it's not for me). I've
searched the web, but without success. Many thanks in advance .
Colin Marshall.
(From the Land of Oz, where mainstream beer is a lot like making love in a
boat.)



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Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 23:33:40 -0500
From: "Tim Green" <timothygreen at earthlink.net>
Subject: Aluminum Pots

Wayne Love writes:

>I need to purchase a new stock pot. Has anybody had any problems using
>aluminum instead of stainless steel? For about half the cost I can buy 
>a much thicker and sturdier aluminum one.

You will see over and over on the web and from HB shops who have a
vested interest in selling Polarware SS pots that you should never
use aluminum pots.

IMHO that is just not true. Although aluminum is softer that stainless
and you can't use caustic cleaners on it. There is just no proof 
anywhere that I have been able to find, on the net or off, that 
indicates that using an aluminum pot to boil liquids in a health 
hazard or adds odd flavors to anything being cooked in them.

I believe that much of this came from a piece of poorly done 
research where they tried to link aluminum from cooking pots 
to Alzimiers Disease. No apparent actual fact in the study.

I have been using aluminum pots to brew in since I started brewing 
with no problems.

Tim Green
Wine is Great,
Beer is Good,



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 00:56:51 -0500
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <spencer at umich.edu>
Subject: Bill Pfeiffer

If I had to pick a single moment by which to remember Bill Pfeiffer,
it would be my first judging experience.  In early 1992, I believe it
was (might have been '93), the AABG hosted the AHA club-only "Bock is
Best" competition.  I had never formally judged beer before, but I was
encouraged to participate anyway.

To compensate for my inexperience, I was paired with "our National
judge," Bill Pfeiffer.  Bill did not try to lecture me.  He led me
through the judging, guiding gently without ever pushing his opinion.
I learned a lot about judging beer from him that day, but perhaps more
importantly, I learned to trust my senses and my impressions.

Over the years since, I continued to learn from Bill, about brewing,
judging, and just life.  And now he's teaching me that it's possible
to accept the end, to welcome it, and to go out of this world in
dignity, with eyes wide open.

Damn it!  I'll sure miss that guy.

=Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:26:43 -0500
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Lactic acid adjustment, sticky in CO

Brewsters:

Lee Primesberger and Paul Niebergall are
discussing lactic acid addition techniques to
adjust the brewing liquor before mashing. 

I am sure AJ will comment more eloquently
than I on this, BUT adding lactic acid to
your water before mashing to get to a
pH of 6-7 will IN NO WAY guarantee that
your mash pH will be correct. Why?

Because the reason your pH is above
7 has a number of potential causes,
which may be buffers, as are the 
contents of the mash.

The proper way to adjust the pH of the
mash is AFTER you heat it up ( to make sure
all the pH reducing calcium/ phosphorous
reactions are completed). Be sure to cool
your sample to RT and adjust the wort pH
with lactic acid to 5.5 to 5.8 - measured at room
temperature. This will guarantee the desired
pH of  5.2 to 5.4 at mash temperatures.
You may be surprised to find you will
need no adjustment, despite the pH of the 
tap water.

More important is to adjust the pH of
the <sparging> water to a pH of below 5.8
with lactic acid to reduce the extraction 
of phenols and the like from the malt 
husks.
- -------------------------------
To "Sticky in Colorado" : As long as 
you use a carboy for your primary
you will run this risk of splooge on the
ceiling. I have never had such a
problem since I started  using an
"open" fermenter made from a plastic
garbage can and a plastic sheet held
in place with a rubber band. Dropping
one of these in the bathroom would be
just as messy, perhaps, as a carboy,
but no glass shards would be produced.

Try Spic and Span, TSP may lift the
paint.

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley 


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:29:21 +0000
From: OSULLS at uk.ibm.com
Subject: Burnt liquor



Thanks for the replies. I had sat down and posted my entry in HBD while I
was waiting for my second batch(after dumping the first!!) to steep, so I
was still a bit dazed and confused after the burnt liquor trauma!
Having had two days to consider things, I think the problem may have had
nothing to do with protein rests or similar, but was in fact purely
mechanical.
I use a brew bag with a mesh bottom to retrieve the spent grain, the batch
of malted grain that burnt has come from a 56lb sack I had come towards the
particles that were small enough to get through the mesh, meaning that
there was more than normal around the element. Coupled with the fact that I
was using a larger that normal amount of grain, making the grain bag sag
lower, and hence less free space under the bag to move around.....result
burnt element.
Fixes.
1. Mix the grain in your 56lb bag as you use it to avoid settling.
2. Strap your sack higher (ooer missus!)
3. Trust your intuition and look for the simple answer first

PS Dave Burnley, yes I live n Swansea but nothing to do with Swansea
University, cheers

Sean




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:34:00 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Enameled Kettle Handles

In a message dated 2/29/2000 12:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< I boil in an 33 quart enamel canning kettle (probably the standard kettle 
of
 this type obtainable at hardware stores, etc.).  I lift this kettle by the
 handles (carry it from stove to counter) when containing about 6 gallons of
 boiling hot wort.  Has anyone experienced trouble with the handles coming
 off?  This would be severe (I have taken to wearing rubber boots when
 carrying the kettle but that would not protect the house/floor from the hot
 sticky wort). >>

I've been brewing in one for over 5 years.  Handles are still on.  Some of 
the enamel is flaking off on the inside near the handles indicating some 
flexing may be going on.  I am retiring it because it has been dropped a few 
too many times (while empty -- sliding off the dish rack & such) and there 
are a few dents & chips.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:42:42 EST
From: KMacneal at aol.com
Subject: Re: Brew pot construction

In a message dated 2/29/2000 12:17:29 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
homebrew-request@hbd.org writes:

<< >5)  I need to purchase a new stock pot. Has anybody had any problems using
 >aluminum instead of stainless steel? For about half the cost I can buy a 
much
 >thicker and sturdier aluminum one.
  >>

Another inexpensive option to stainless steel pots are enamel on steel pots.  
The large ones (33 qt. or so) are sometimes sold as seafood pots.

Keith MacNeal
Worcester, MA



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:35:34 -0500
From: "Darrell Leavitt" <Darrell_Leavitt at sln.esc.edu>
Subject: question: chilling ales in the secondary ?

In a back room that I use for lagers, I have several containers full of
chilled water.  Well, the other day I decided to place a Burton Ale into
50F water thinking that this might help to clarify the final product....but
I woke up this morning thinking that I had made a mistake; ie, perhaps
there might not be enough yeast left for bottling!
 The ale had been in secondary for just over 1 week....Should I have kept
it around 60F to keep some of the yeasies around ?

 Worried.
 ..Darrell




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:57:14 +0000
From: "A. J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Weizen

For George and Jim: I seem to recall that a good Bruchhefe is preferred
for bottle conditioning of Weizens because, after it has done its work,
it goes to the bottom of the bottle and sticks firmly there thus giving
the drinker the option of  pouring his beer clear or "mit Hefe tru:ben".

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

For Steve: I know one guy who refers to Budweiser as "hangover in a
can", an asessment with which I essentially agree. If I go to an
ordinary bar with normal people and have two 10 Oz Bud's I feel worse
the next morning than after three pints of one of my own creations even
though the latter is more alcoholic. I've always blamed this on the
noticeable levels of acetaldehyde in Bud (gives it that apple-like
aroma) which is, after all, the stuff of hangovers, but I rather doubt
that the small amount that produces the flavor is significant relative
to the amount oxidized from alcohol during metabolism.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

For Lee and Paul: The amount of lactic acid required to bring water to
an appropriate pH is determined by the water's alkalinity. Highly
alkaline water (found in the midwest and some parts of the west) will
require more acid than the relatively less carbonate waters of the
coasts. There is no optimum pH for water treatment in the sense that
there is for the mash. Each milliequivalent of acid you add to the water
before mashing is one milliequivalent that does not have to be supplied
by malt phosphate/calcium reaction or from dark malt organic acids.
There are usually better ways to control mash pH than treatment with
acid such as decarbonating the water (boiling, lime treatment) or
adjusting the dark malt percentage of the grist. The problem with acid
addition is that you have the flavor effects of the acid anion to deal
with. Lactic can be quite tasty in some styles (stouts, wits, Berliner
Weisse etc.) but is not so good in others. Phosphoric is often called
"flavor neutral", hydrochloric can actually add to the sense of
mouthfeel (chloride ion) and sulfuric can be used where augmentation of
hops impression is desired (some ales).

You can find details on how to estimate the amount of each of several
types of acid required to establish a particular water pH  given a
particular alkalinity and starting pH at
http://brewery.org/brewery/library/AcidifWaterAJD0497.html



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:30:43 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: Fruit Beer Sludge

On Mon, 28 Feb 2000 Jeremy J. Arntz wrote about Fruit Beer Sludge:

>After about 5 days of fermentation activity slowed in the airlock of 
>my batch of apple ale. So, I opened the lid to check the S.G. of my 
>brew when I was stunned to see this brownish-green sludge had 
>grown/collected on top of the apples. 

J,

Last year I I tried my hand at fruit beers and brewed a cherry stout and a
cherry ale.  Both of these batches had a good 7 or 8 pounds of sour cherries
added to the secondary and both contained brown sludge at the end of the
ferment.  I assume it is natural decomposition of the cherries as both beers
were a smash after aging for a couple of months.  BTW, to avoid racking
problems I kept the fruit in a nylon mesh bag in the fermenter.  It works
wonders by keeping the brown sludge, pits and skin inside the bag.  .  I now
plan on brewing a "cherry something" every season.

Glen Pannicke
alehouse.homepage.com





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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:36:33 EST
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: lactic acid

I can second the information presented by Paul recently regarding the use of 
Lactic Acid for pH adjustments. I recently did a similar study of Lactic 
Acid additions vs. pH which I wrote up for my homebrew club's newsletter.

This info was created using City of Tallahassee tap water which is actually 
a pretty good brewing water, with just a little too much carbonate in it for 
it to be a perfect starting point for most water styles. The starting pH is 
about 7.9 units.

I agree that a syringe is a good thing to measure the acid additions with, 
but I use a calibrated medicine dropper for my additions. I found that 6 
drops per gallon brings the water to about 7.0 pH, 1/8 tsp per gallon gets 
it to about 6.5 pH, and 3/16 tsp per gallon brings it to about 5.7 pH. I'm 
recalling these results off the top of my head since I don't have the data 
in front of me as I write this, so this might be a little off, but its 
close. By the way, I found that 1/4 tsp was 36 drops with my dropper, your 
results may vary.

Paul's mention of his water supply's very high pH is alarming. The legal 
limits for pH in a drinking water supply are 6.5 to 8.5 pH units. Paul, I 
would either question the pH meter you are using or I would raise an alarm 
with your water provider. Hopefully a smart guy like yourself is using pH 
buffer solutions to check and calibrate your meter, and if that is the case 
then I would alert your water supplier that you are measuring excessive pH 
in their system. They have to correct it ASAP under the requirements of the 
Clear Water Act.

Since I mentioned the newsletter article above, it would be a real service 
to your fellow brewclub members if a few of the beergeek types (like myself) 
in each club would do experiments on your local tap water(s) to establish 
what chemical additions are appropriate for various brewing waters styles. 
You can then publish it in your newsletter or website for all your members 
to use. All you need to do is contact your water utility for the existing 
water quality data.

I used ProMash software to come up with the mineral additions or distilled 
water dilutions for amending City of Tallahassee water into waters like 
Burton-on-Trent, Ideal Pale Ale, Ideal Stout, Ideal Lager, etc. I then 
converted those gram weights to level teaspoon measures since most people 
don't have a gram scale but can cheaply purchase measuring spoons.

For the pH experiment, I used a quart of water and did the measurements 
after each drop of 88 percent Lactic Acid. That gave me data points at 4 
drops per gallon. I was using a pH meter so it was no big deal to do all 
those measurements. If you are going to do the study with pH papers, I would 
suggest doing the test at 2 drops per quart or you are going to go through a 
bunch of pH papers. I drew the graph of pH vs drops per gallon with the 
resulting data to decipher the appropriate acid addition rates for various 
pH points. I provided my clubmates with acid addition rates to hit the 
following points: a 7.0 pH (the least any brewer should do to their water), 
a low 6 pH (probably a good starting point for most mashing water), and a 
5.7 pH (good for sparge water).

I just wrote a short 2 page article for my club newsletter with the 
information I mentioned above. I would be glad to provide it to any 
interested folks for their use as a starting point for their club's article. 
Drop me a note if you want it.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL

"Meandering to a different drummer"


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 09:50:25 -0600
From: Jack Baty <jack at wubios.wustl.edu>
Subject: Enameled Kettle Handles


>From: "Dick & Cecilia Kuzara" <rkuzara at wyoming.com>
>
>I boil in an 33 quart enamel canning kettle (probably the standard kettle of
>this type obtainable at hardware stores, etc.).  I lift this kettle by the
>handles (carry it from stove to counter) when containing about 6 gallons of
>boiling hot wort.  Has anyone experienced trouble with the handles coming
>off?

It happened to me not long after I started using the pot.  I could feel the 
handle coming off so I quickly set the pot on the floor and didn't spill 
anything.  The manufacturer sent me a replacement and I only lift it by the 
rim unless it is empty.  It's tough on the fingers but not as tough as a 
scalding.

Jack Baty
St. Louis MO



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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:50:27 -0800
From: Jeremy Bergsman <jeremybb at stanford.edu>
Subject: temperature controllers

I received a catalog in the mail yesterday which offers what seems to be a
good deal in temp controllers that could be used for a refrigerator or even
possibly a RIMS.  The cheapest is $19.95, goes from 30-110F, is waterproof,
and will switch "16FLA at 120V or 8FLA at 240V".  I don't know what FLA means but
assuming it's amps this sounds good.  They all have analog dial adjustment
with no temp readout and are made by "Durostat".  The catalog is TekSupply,
800-835-7877, http://www.TekSupply.com.  Standard disclaimer applies,
including I've never done business with them.
- -- 
Jeremy Bergsman
jeremybb at stanford.edu
http://www.stanford.edu/~jeremybb


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:31:41 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Enameled Kettle Handles

>"Dick Kuzara" <rkuzara at wyoming.com> writes:
>
>I boil in an 33 quart enamel canning kettle<snip>
>I lift this kettle by the
>handles (carry it from stove to counter) when containing about 6 gallons of
>boiling hot wort.  Has anyone experienced trouble with the handles coming
>off?

I used one of these for probably 15 years before going to aluminum 10
gallon pots and never had a problem beyond a strained back.  Toward the
carrying it for the same fear as you express.  I think they'd have to be
designed to hold a kettle of liquid since that's clearly their intended
purpose.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 12:09:29 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Re-pitching

>"John Todd Larson" <larson at amazon.com> asks about re-pitching
>
>I left
>about 1/2" of beer covering the thin layer of yeast, put on an air lock and
>put the whole carboy in the fridge.  What should I do to use this yeast next
>weekend?

First I'd feed the yeast now with a quart or so of wort.  You could make
some up from extract if you didn't can some from a previous brew as I do
(no botulism warnings, please).  You could do it right in the carboy where
there's plenty of oxygen for growth.  Then dump this into a sanitized
plastic soda bottle or big jar or a gallon jug depending on how much volume
you have (use a big funnel.  It should ferment out in a day or two,
allowing you to refrigerate it and decant the liquid and pitch sedimented
yeast.  I figure about 1/2 oz. yeast paste per gallon for ales, double that
for lagers.  You can keep the extra yeast for a few weeks in the fridge, or
share it with other brewers.  We often have yeast passing around members of
AABG.  Just be sure to practice safe yeast.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 11:31:25 -0600
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Re: enameled kettle handles

I would not carry ANY pot of boiling liquid ANYWHERE!  It's just too
dangerous (ok a 1 or 2 gallon pot may be ok as it is easy to handle).  It
just isn't worth the risk of a burn injury, PLEASE DON'T DO THIS ANYMORE!!!
I don't know how you are chilling your beer, but you can get an immersion
chiller cheaply enough, or build one for about $20 and put hoses on it that
are long enough to reach your kitchen sink.  I really think those pot
handles are only good for moving an empty pot around, not a full pot.
It would be an incredibly bad thing if you bumped the pot on something and
are immersed in boiling wort and you will likely lose all of the skin.  The
rule of thumb in burn injuries is if your age plus the percentage of skin
burns obtained is equal to or over 100, you will not live.  (not that any
burn is fun, it is the most slowly healing injury you can get and hurts all
the while it heals.)  Why am I ranting?  I used to be a firefighter and the
thought of anyone getting a burn actually is painful to me.  So one last
time...DON'T CARRY BOILING LIQUIDS ANYWHERE!!!

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL

(I have seen people in the process of burning and the screams haunt me
still)


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:12:53 -0700
From: Dana Edgell <EdgeAle at cs.com>
Subject: autolysis/musty

Dave Burley sez:

>Wayne Love asks about that "musty"
>taste he gets when he reuses a
>yeast cake from a previous brew and
>about an Aluminum vs SS kettle.
>
>Wayne, it is possible that taste you
>are experiencing is an infection or
>possibly the beginning of yeast
>autolysis if you are keeping the
>yeast around at room temperature
>in beer, although I would not
>descibe either as musty.

I just kegged a beer last night that had a musty taste that wasn't there
when I last tasted it. I was wondering if it was yeast bite as I wasn't
able to keg the beer when I wanted to and it sat on the yeast for much
longer than planned. However, I seem to recall yeast bite descibed as
"meaty" or "rubbery" but this is nothing like that. Has anyone else
encountered a musty taste from yeast autolysis?

If it is yeast bite, is there anything that can be done to reduce it the
flavor?
(cold conditioning etc?)

Thanks
Dana

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Dana Edgell              mailto:EdgeAle at cs.com
Edge Ale Brewery         http://ourworld.cs.com/EdgeAle
San Diego




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 14:36:49 -0500
From: "Scholz, Richard" <RScholz at refco.com>
Subject: Yeast Growth

Stephen Alexander <mailto:steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>  writes in HBD
3261 in response to Roger A 's
>>
Well, if we have 75% new growth, then the 25% reproduced only three times
its original biomass, however if we have 99% new growth, the  result is
about 100X increase in biomass, to me that is significant  yeast growth and
would probably have a perceptible impact on beer  character.
>>
>
Your argument that the underpitched yeast must multiply 99 times versus 3 is
correct but irrelevant. I think you must admit that there is no conceivable
physical mechanism by which creation of flavor chemicals is related to the
amount of multiplication. Do you really believe that single cell that
multiplies ninety-nine-fold somehow creates much more of a flavor impact
than a trillion cells that 'only' double in count ? 
<snip>
Underpitching doesn't damage beer flavor primarily because the amount of
yeast growth is greater, but because the growth conditions differ,
particularly toward the end of fermentation. When the yeast run into
nutritional roadblocks it causes metabolic changes that can result in
relatively large amounts of flavor active by-products. 
>
Now for Me:

So Steve, You're saying that the 9-10 generations of yeast run into
nutritional deficiencies due to the need of these growth constituents, but
not just because they are the late generations. The fermentation flavor
by-products are due to lack of nutrients not the dividing of the available
growth constituents? Yes, if we continually add these things we get great
yeast growth and bad flavors for other reasons, but in "green" beer we are
limited by the original concentrations and too many generations of yeast
will deplete the available nutrients and lead to these fermentation flavor
by-products.

Seem to me just about the same result. I don't think Roger A. was disputing
the mechanism, ( were you Roger?) just the implications that many
generations finally producing these flavor components from the depletion of
available resources.

Just trying to understand the whole process.
- ---
Richard L Scholz. 
Brooklyn, NY


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:42:28 -0500
From: Kevin Basso <KevinB at AWSPERRY.COM>
Subject: Easy Acid Wash Technique?

I typically reuse yeast from a previous batch and I have been able to 
keep most yeast going strong for many batches.  However after a while 
or perhaps after an unusual fruit beer, grain bill or hopping content 
I usually have to discard a slow our soured yeast into my happy septic 
tank.

I currently have a couple of yeasts that I like to run with but I 
would like to keep them in optimal condition.  I can usually store 
them in a sterile capped bottle in between usage when I switch from 
one to another.  Sometimes I may split a batch and use two different 
ones.

I read the post by Dave Burley with the brief description that when 
washing the "yeast cake that you give it a wash with 1% tartaric acid, 
three rinses with boiled cooled water".  What is the easiest way to 
Acid wash yeast at home?  How exactly can I keep my yeast in peak 
condition...

Kevin
Islip Terrace, NY




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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 19:58:28 -0600
From: Joseph Gibbens <jgibbens at umr.edu>
Subject: false bottoms and mash stirring

Hello,

Thanks for all the replies on where I can find false bottoms.

Can anyone tell me what the mash flow pattern should be for a HERMS?  
Will there be any problems with having it flow up the center and down the 
sides?  

Joe


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Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 21:08:03 -0500
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Brewtek CL-380 Saison yeast

I have a saison in secondary that started at 1.062 and fermented fairly
quickly to 1.021, then stopped. It's very clear now, after 2 wks in
secondary, and the gravity hasn't budged. I would have expected it to drop
to 1.015 or 16. The grist was roughly 70% vienna malt, and the balance pils
malt. Mashed at mid 140's for 15 min, then 158 until conversion.

I'm wondering if this yeast acts like a lot of Wit yeasts; Quick start,
then long, slow ferment to completion.  Secondary ambient temp is mid 60's.
I was thinking of bottling it right now with no priming sugar, thinking it
would slowly ferment out and carbonate the beer, but I'm concerned about
how large a drop in gravity I might get.

Anyone have any experience with this yeast? TIA.



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---