---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Counter flow chiller! (James Jerome)
  Wink, wink, nudge ,nudge (James Jerome)
  gelatin finings and bottle conditioning (Richard_R_Gontarek)
  FWH ("Alan Meeker")
  Partial mash method. (Edward Doernberg)
  re: mash temperatures and yeast attentuation ("Stephen Alexander")
  no-mashout ("Stephen Alexander")
  Lynne's yeast counts ("Alan Meeker")
  Re: Counterflow chiller (RobertJ)
  wort fermentable sugars ("Alan Meeker")
  yeast counts (Jim Liddil)
  Planning Portland, OR trip (John Baxter Biggins)
  Phil's Philler and Brian Dixon (Dick)
  South Shore Brewoff 2000 Homebrew Competition ("Reed,Randy")
  Bouncing carboys and Bag O'Wort kits (Brian Lundeen)
  sweetness ("Spies, Jay")
  Gourmet Brewer ("Penn, John")
  high gravity and ethanol tollerance ("Alan Meeker")
  De-Leading Brass ("John Palmer")
  Chiller efficiency and metal wetting ability ("J. Doug Brown")
  Canning hops? ("J. Doug Brown")
  Stainless Steel VS copper Coil ("J. Matthew Saunders")
  burner mod.s ("Hull, Ted")
  re:counterflow chiller (J Daoust)
  Legality of distallation ("Doug Moyer")
  (no subject) (Bob Landry)
  phils philler ("Eugene Smith")
  Why boil a cereal mash? ("Michael J. Westcott")
  welding resource (James Jerome)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* Entries for the 18th Annual HOPS competition are due 3/24-4/2/00 
* See http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/ for more information

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:28:04 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Counter flow chiller!

All right, 99% of the posters here are going to chuckle, but if you are
a new homebrewer still using extract brewing (like me)), then I HAVE to
tell you.  Make yourself a counterflow wort-chiller (NOW1).  I just
finished brewing a batch and it shaved a solid hour off my brew time.  
See archives of HBD for more info on how, but do it!. 

For those much more experienced posters out there, just ignore my
enthusiasm...I feel like I found the Holy Grail.  It is neat, cheap
(less than $30 bucks for everything), and easily put together.  I have
been such an idiot.  I started heating water in my brew pot at 9:05 pm
in my kitchen, and and at 12:15Am I am done with everything cleaned, put
away, and my loaded fermenter happily stored in its below stairwell
location.  My wifee thinks I'm still brewing.  

Again, make yourself a wort chiller now, don't delay...It is worth it.

Jett in TN


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:38:24 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Wink, wink, nudge ,nudge

Sorry, I Forgot to mention.  If you go to the hardware store for copper
tubing hose clamps, vinyl tubing etc in Tennessee, the clerk
automaticaly thinks he's helping you to make some sort of still.  They
just don't quite buy the fact that you are a hombrewer.  In TN, Don't
argue.  The hardware stoe guys are like 10 times more helpful if they
think you are up to something.  I plan on surprising them by dropping in
with a few homebrews to prove I wasn't trying to do something Uncle Sam
didn't like.

Jett Jerome in Ooh-ta-waahhH, TN


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:52:56 -0400
From: Richard_R_Gontarek at sbphrd.com
Subject: gelatin finings and bottle conditioning


Hi All,

A few weeks ago a friend and I brewed a ten-gallon batch of a Kolsch,
which we split into two carboys. One will be kegged and one batch will
be bottled (I have a home draft set-up, my buddy does not).  After primary
fermentation ceased, we transferred the beer to clean carboys and began
a three week cold  conditioning. After this time, the beer is still a little
cloudy with yeast (I've read that Wyeast 2565 Kolsh does not floc well).
I sometimes use gelatin finings a few days before kegging to get
clear beer, but I was wondering if it's possible to fine with gelatin
at bottling time. Can my friend add corn sugar and gelatin finings
when he bottles his batch? Will the gelatin impact the ability of the yeast
to carbonate the beer in the bottle? Back in the days when I was bottling
my homebrew, I never fined with gelatin and so I don't know
if this will work.

I'm sure that if we bottled one batch as is and just let it clear naturally, it
will probably take a while. Maybe we should be a little patient?

Thanks for any advice,

Rick Gontarek
Owner/Brewmaster
The Major Groove Picobrewery
Trappe, PA




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:31:32 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: FWH

>>how can hops added before
>>the boil add flavor and aroma?  Help me out here.

>That's the big question that no one on HBD has found the answer to yet,
>either in the literature or otherwise, but it really works.  There is a
>summary of FWH by Dave Draper at hbd.org, I think.

>Jeff

When I first heard of FWH  I too was in the "how can this possibly work,
what with all the lost volatiles..." camp. However, I'm definitely keeping
an open mind as there apparently have been /controlled/ tests done where
tasting panels do in fact find a difference between FWH and non-FWH beers.
There is also at least one study out there which supposedly indicates that
the process of FWH leads to a different  /spectrum/ of  hop-derived
compounds in the final beer and this, I  think, could go a long way towards
explaining any perceived taste differences. I haven't seen either of these
references in print though, anyone have them???

 -Alan Meeker
 Lazy Eight Brewery





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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:19:40 +0800
From: Edward Doernberg <shevedd at q-net.net.au>
Subject: Partial mash method.

i have been lurking on this list for some months now and find between the
flames there is a quantity of useful information. In this portion there is
even some that at my lowly experience level I can use. I was wondering if
you could help a lowly extract brewer of 6 batches move up to partial mash.

I have herd that you can do a partial mash by using a signal infusion and
leaving it in the oven.

3kg light LME or 2.5kg light DME (is that number right)
320g roasted barley
200g crystal malt
100g chocolate malt
1/2 cup brown shoger
15g honey
for hops I an considering tettuanger
28g  at  60min
14g  at  20min 
and 7g dry or as close as I can measure without fancy scales
yeast probably 1048 or 1098

if i do this what temperature should I use and how much water wold be needed
and how long do I need it at this temp and how much base malt should I use

Is this wort the effort, will the bear be better for adding this step.

Any other suggestions more than welcome

Edward Doernberg
in Western Australia



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Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 03:16:23 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: mash temperatures and yeast attentuation

Jerry asks ...

>1.  As I understand it, a higher mash temperature will yield a less
>fermentable wort, will it therefore produce a "sweeter" beer ?

Less fermentable - yes.  But the unfermentable sugars and dextrins
are NOT significantly sweet.

>2.  If I use a yeast which is less attenuative, will it produce a "sweeter"
>beer ?

Generally yes.  The fermentable sugars are sweet.  But I wouldn't
suggest that you can get much sweetness in this way unless you have
a defective fermentation.  You can get a little sweetness this way tho'.

>.  If I use a less attenuative yeast (ie Wyeast 1968) and also raise the
>mash temperature (say from 150 to 155), is it possible that the effects of
>both these changes may overshoot a set goal and cause a beer to be too
>"sweet" ?

Perhaps, but the sweetness in beer is most usually caused by caramel
(crystal or caramel malts) which is unfermentable..

>4.  So, if I were going to attempt a recipe for Bass Ale which called for
>invert sugar, but did not give specifications for mash temp or yeast type,
>would using all three variables be over kill for this particular beer ?

I think you are on the wrong track for a PA.  It  may have a sweet
edge rounding off the dry finish, but the attenuation should be very
high, and the residual sugars fairly low.

English pale ales are  *very* well attenuated mashed at a low temp, with
only a little crystal or caramel malt.  Foster suggests 2 to 6 ounces of 60L
crystal per 5gal. in PAs.

Invert sugar refers to sucrose (table sugar, cane sugar, beet sugar) that
has been broken down into it's component glucose and fructose.  Yeast
perform this breakdown in a matter of minutes. The addition of sucrose or
other sugars increases the attenuation and reduces body.

My opinion is that you should choose the yeast first based on flavor
contribution
and handling issues.  Then modulate the residual sweetness by adjusting the
crystal malt.  Continue to use a mash temp like your 150F for  high
attenuation.
I'd certainly use sugars  or well modified corn syrup  - in moderation.

>Sorry - that was four questions - just trying to put all this together.
HBD is nothing without questions - no apology needed.

 -S





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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:03:41 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: no-mashout

0el posts agreeing with Dave Burley ......

>>1) One is improve the efficiency of the mash by utilizing as much of
>>the available starch [...]
>>2) decrease the lauter viscosity to improve the rate of extraction,
>>3) knock out beta amylase to stabilize the attenuation of the wort

I completely agree with these reasons for mashout.
What we disagree about is the magnitude of these effects and
therefore their relevance to HB.

I've experimented and reported in outline my results.  You  are
just guessing in an area where you haven't read the lit or performed
the experiments   Why not try a Fix 60C-70C mash w/o mashout and
see.

 -S




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:18:21 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: Lynne's yeast counts

A few comments on Lynne O'Conner's yeast data:
- ---------
1. Only viable cells were counted.  Cells were not counted by
microscope--this is typically done only in the dairy industry.  Several
plate dilutions were counted (log 2,4,6,8,9 dilutions for each sample).
- ---------
Unless steps were taken to make sure the yeasts were fully separated (e.g.
EDTA treatment) this could have led to a significant undercount of the total
number of yeasts. Not necessarily the case but something to bear in mind.

- ---------
2.  Contamination testing was done.  No contamination was found, only
product
- ---------
Interesting, given recent discussions here. Of course, their results would
depend upon what they were testing for and how they conducted the test(s)...

- ---------
3.  Regarding 1" thick:

AFL states that Wyeast is at its optimal when its 1" thick because this is
the point at which there is maximum cellular budding of the yeast.  After
this point there is a little more growth of yeast, but the wort (food
source) is being used up and the yeast are starting to give off their waste
products and saturate their system leading to a falling off of viable yeast
until they reach a stationary phase.  Also, alcohol is being given off and
the activity of the yeast starts to decrease.

What is interesting is that the optimum time to pitch does not coincide
with maximum cell counts, which occurs a little later.
- ---------
Hmmmm well, I'm not sure I can agree with this analysis. It sounds like
you're advocating "maximum budding" as the criterion for best time to pitch.
Why?  From your description of their counting technique it doesn't sound
like it would have been sufficiently rigorous to make the distinction
between budding and cell number. If they were counting cfu then the cell
number could easily double or triple without them seeing any increase in
their cell count numbers. Also, the production of waste products isn't
restricted to this late phase of the culture growth (though it does scale to
population size, all other things being equal). While the activity level
will be slowing as they exhaust the nutrients the viability really shouldn't
be decreasing too much, certainly not between the short amount of time
between the pack's swelling from say 1" to 2"  also, the fact that the pack
is still swelling means that there is plenty of yeast activity taking place
(CO2 production). On the other hand, taking the yeast at 1" shouldn't make
too much of a difference. Brerwer's yeast can divide in 2-3 hours under
ideal conditions so the difference between a 1" swelled pack and a 2"
swelled pack may simply amount to another couple of hours lag time. Finally,
if the cells are in fact slowing their growth rate it could due to any
number of reasons - nutrient depletion, ethanol toxicity or perhaps its
because of the inhibitory effect of the CO2 pressure that builds up. This
would be interesting to test.

 -Alan Meeker









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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:41:12 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Counterflow chiller

From: "Steve" <stjones1 at chartertn.net>

I'm planning on making a counterflow wort chiller using 3/4"
ID copper tubing with 3/8" OD copper tubing inside. .....
I was wondering what the minimum overall length of the
tubing should be to be effective at chilling to within 5
degrees of the water. A 25' coil would cost me about $50 to
build, so I'd like to make it smaller if possible.
____

Your's will be similar to the "PhilChiller" except using copper outer tubing. 

Tests were done in Zymurgy about 4 years ago of both a 50' and 25' version.
25' should get you to within 5 degrees of cooling water temperature. It'
just a matter of total cooling time (how fast can you run the wort) and
total volume of cooling water used. Not sure but, I believe their test took
about 15 mins with the 25' version. Not sure if zymurgy articles are
online. Perhaps someone else may know
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:52:51 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: wort fermentable sugars

re attenuation, etc.  I think it is important to keep in mind the fact that,
for typical all grain-derived worts, only about 75 - 80% of the
carbohydrates in solution are actually useable by standard brewer's yeast.
What this means is that one can't expect say a 1.060 wort to go much below
1.015 - 1.012 final gravity. The remaining sugars are maltotetraose and
higher (including dextrins) and won't be eaten by the yeasts...

 -Alan Meeker




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 07:11:42 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: yeast counts

I applaud Lynne for post the following info.  I admit and take full
repsonsiblity for being antagonistic.  And this kind of independent data
goes a long way towards providing much needed inof to the homebrewer.

> 
> 1. Only viable cells were counted.  Cells were not counted by
> microscope--this is typically done only in the dairy industry.  Several
> plate dilutions were counted (log 2,4,6,8,9 dilutions for each sample).
> 
> 2.  Contamination testing was done.  No contamination was found, only product.

I have to aks what kind of testing was done with what medias?  Aerobic and
anaerobic?

> 
> 3.  Regarding 1" thick:
> This issue, i.e., when is the optimal time to pitch Wyeast, was the main
> focus of these tests for me.  In my original post I understated how many
> Wyeast packs were checked and at what thickness.  AFL checked numerous
> packs ranging from immediately smacked to fully risen at a number of
> thicknesses to answer this question. This was an iterative process that
> funneled down to the 1" thick pouch.

Again I think it would be great to see all the raw data.  Any chance of
getting this on your web site?
> 
> 4.  Jim Liddil wonders why Analytical Food Labs data is more or less valid
> than that included in the Zymurgy 1998 special issue.  I will repeat that
> the tests that I reported were done by a professional lab, that the yeast
> suppliers had no knowledge whatsoever that the tests were going to be done,
> the products got to the lab in about as good a condition as possible.
> 
> Here are the facts of which I am certain regarding the Zymurgy article.
> 
> The cell counts, for both White Labs and Wyeast, in the table of the
> Zymurgy special issue were provided to the author by White Labs. This is
> not stated in the article. The White Labs data sheet containing these cell
> counts clearly states the tests on Wyeast were done on 2 week old packs
> obtained secondhand.  This information is not provided in the article.


Thanks for clarifying this.  One can only hope that Zymurgy will begin to
be a better more thorughly editted magazine with Ray in charge.  I think
finding oout info like this just further supports the view of the lack of
credibility at the AHA in the past.


Jim Liddil



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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:38:56 -0500
From: John Baxter Biggins <jbbiggin at med.cornell.edu>
Subject: Planning Portland, OR trip

Will be in Portland, OR next week.  I'm familiar w/ the area but haven't
been there in over a year. As brewpubs tend to change from month to month &
actual brews from week to week, which breweries are currently the best to
hit?

Private email OK:  bignz721 at hotmail.com


- -------------------
John B. Biggins
Cornell University Medical College
Weill Graduate School of Medical Sciences
Student -- Program in Pharmacology

Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center
Laboratory for Biosynthetic Chemistry
Department of Molecular Pharmacology and Therapeutics
lab:(212)693-6405   fax:(212)717-3135
http://www.ski.edu/lab_homepage.cfm?lab=189

	"Science, like Nature, must also be tamed
	   With a view towards its preservation.
	 Given the same state of integrity
	   It will surely serve us well."
	    -- Neil Peart; Natural Science (III) -- Permanent Waves




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:58:26 -0500
From: Dick <dickgl at lek.net>
Subject: Phil's Philler and Brian Dixon

Here is Listermans page and info on Phil's Philler and other products

http://www.listermann.com/



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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:00:23 -0500
From: "Reed,Randy" <rreed at foxboro.com>
Subject: South Shore Brewoff 2000 Homebrew Competition

Everyone,

Just a quick reminder that the deadline for entries in this year's 

South Shore Brewoff Homebrew Competition is April 1st.

There are a number of drop off locations in the Massachusetts / Rhode Island


area. For more information, please surf to:

http://members.aol.com/brewclub

We appreciate your support, and strive to run a BJCP competition that has 

become known for providing quality, objective feedback to our entrants.

Interested in Judging? Use the link above for more information.

Cheers,
Randy Reed
Chief Information Officer
South Shore Brew Club      -   In Search Of The Perfect Pint


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:41:23 -0600
From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at post.rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Bouncing carboys and Bag O'Wort kits

> 
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:59:34 -0800
> From: "Brian Dixon." <briandixon at home.com>
> Subject: Mail order Phil's Philler?
> 
> I asked this once before, but the post didn't go through or 
> something (?),
> so it didn't get answered.  In any case, my wonderful brass 
> Phil's Philler
> broke ... something about a 1/3rd full carboy coming down off 
> a counter and
> bouncing around the kitchen while trying to bottle my latest 
> creation ...
> and now I need a new Philler. 

See now, here is a perfect example of why you should use GLASS carboys. It
would simply have broken neatly into thousands of lethal shards, and your
Philler would have been spared. ;-)


> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 10:01:03 -0500
> From: "Steven Lichtenberg" <slichten at mnsinc.com>
> Subject: Great new product
> This is a product called MicroWorts.  
> The product is about $18.00 and contains 2.5 gallons of wort.

This sounds very similar to the BrewHouse kits. They provide 15 litres of
high gravity wort, which you dilute with water to your desired strength.
Note that this is not concentrate or extract. It is a true ready to ferment
wort produced by mashing, sparging and boiling but at a high gravity. With a
full water addition to yield a normal 4-5% alcohol beer, the kits will make
6 gallons (23 litres, at least the product in Canada does, you folks down
there in the States may get a slightly different product). The product is
very good, and much less expensive than the MicroWorts. With recent price
drops, they should be selling up here for around the $20 mark. That's about
$14 US for twice as much beer. Perhaps, the MicroWorts make much better
beer, and are worth the extra money. That will be up to people to decide for
themselves. Just letting you know about alternatives.

Brian


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:55:36 -0500
From: "Spies, Jay" <Spies at dhcd.state.md.us>
Subject: sweetness

All -

In HBD #3282, Jerry asked for recommendations to control the overall level
of "sweetness" in a beer, esp. a Bass ale clone.

OK, IMO, there are several factors a work which can ultimately affect
fermentability, and hence, final perceived "sweetness" levels.  

He's right in that a higher mash sacc temp (152-156) will promote dextrin
formation and unfermentables, which will leave more residual sugars in the
beer and hence a sweeter taste, while the opposite, a lower mash temp
(146-149) will produce a more fermentable beer and a drier, more noticeably
alcoholic final product.  

However, there are other factors to consider.  For one, oxygenation at
pitching.  More O2 at pitching time will give the yeasts more fuel to build
up their cell structures (...don't know the exact scientific frippery for
this process), and will lead to a more vigorous fermentation and a likely
lower FG.  Underoxygenation will lead to sluggish and possibly stuck
fermentations, and while a "sweeter" beer could lkely be obtained with this
method, I wouldn't recommend it due to the concomitant increase in lag time
and its open window for bacterial contamination.  Also, this is not a really
reliable way to control fermentation level.

Third, control over the pitching rate has a large effect on FG.  Pitch a
large amount of yeast, and depending on the overall attenuation of the
strain, you can reasonably expect that they will ferment out to their
approximate alcohol tolerance, perhaps a bit over.  Underpitching, as has
been discussed ad infinitum here of late, can produce the opposite effect,
with the yeast struggling to just make ends meet, so to speak.

What's the bottom line, here?  If you want to control the FG, and hence, the
sweetness, I'd advise 2 things:  Choose your (liquid) yeast wisely, and use
the mash temp to control the level of attenuation.  This (IMHO) is by far
the most reliable method to gain control over the attenuation.  Notice here
what I did not say:  Nothing about pitching or oxygenation.  Those should
be, for lack of a better term, standard.  Pitch lots of yeast from a
starter, yeast that has been stepped up at least once for ales, 2 or 3 times
for lagers, and oxygenate well.  These 2 things will go miles toward
ensuring healthy and vigorous fermentations, and will also close the purse
strings on that window of opportunity for bacterial infection.  

Your choice of yeast will affect the residual flavors of the final product,
and will determine (roughly) the level of attenuation that you will get
(...given identical worts, a 1056 strain will always ferment down more than
a 1968).  Once you have the yeast for style, use your mash temp to fine tune
the attenuation to your liking.  Vary the grain bill and the hop bill to
fine tune the flavor to your liking.  I happen to like malty, ESB-like IPA's
(oxymoron?), and have spent the last 4 or so years tweaking one recipe to
achieve what I feel to be a good balance of maltiness and hoppiness.  I use
a 1028 strain and a relatively high mash temp (154) to get a FG in the 1.016
 - 1.017 range.  Every time.  I also pitch a load of yeast and add pure O2 to
the wort.  Every time.  Fermentation is usually complete in under 60 hours,
and lag time is usually under 4.  I like it this way. Can you make great
beers using other methods than mine?  Of course you can.  I'm sure scads of
people do.  Mine is but one in a sea of datapoints, but it works for me.
Hopefully it will work for you, or at least give you a jumping off point.

So, if you want a Bass clone, get a recipe from the Gambrinus' Mug or Cat's
Meow sites (if you dont already have one) and start experimenting.  I'd
initially advise using a Burton yeast strain, but don't lock yourself in.
Take careful notes, and repeat until you have a product you like.  Be wary
of folks that say "mash at X temp and pitch X strain and use X recipe and
you'll get Bass", because that doesn't take into account the efficiency or
individuality of your system or your brewing process.  Most of all, have fun
with it, and drink your experiments.  You'll learn from the process.

BTW, invert sugar will make the beer drier and more fermentable because
unlike malt sugars, invert sugars are almost completely fermentable, and
will tend to drag the FG down and give a drier, more alcoholic product, not
the opposite.

hope this helps,

Jay Spies
Wishful Thinking Basement Brewery
Baltimore, MD


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:16:56 -0500
From: "Penn, John" <John.Penn at jhuapl.edu>
Subject: Gourmet Brewer

	Anyone know what happened to the "Gourmet Brewer"?  They used to
have a great deal on bulk hops, like 6 varieties of 1/2# domestic hops for
$20 or 6 varieties of 1/2# imported hops for $30.  Anyone know what happened
to Dave?  Anyone know of another place that deals in bulk hops (#) for a
really good price?  TIA
   John Penn
  Eldersburg, MD

Just opened a bottle of that scotch ale I brewed a couple of months ago.
Pretty good so far but I think I'll try to carmelize the malt more by using
a longer boil.  The aroma on my previous batch and caramel flavor was
tremendous.  Might even up the roasted barley or hops a pinch from the
recipe I posted previously.


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:21:26 -0500
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at welchlink.welch.jhu.edu>
Subject: high gravity and ethanol tollerance

cbuckley asked some questions about high gravity brewing.

There was a very good research paper on this topic that was commented on at
length on the HBD by Rob Moline, Steve Alexander and myself (probably others
too) either in '99 or '98. If you do a search of the archives on "high
gravity" you'll probably run into it pretty quickly.

As to how much ethanol brewer's yeast can tolerate, the paper mentioned
above had standard brewer's yeast fermenting a high gravity wort to
something like 16% final alcohol. Don't remember if this was by weight or by
volume but either way it's pretty impressive.

The take home messages from this study was that nitrogen was a key factor in
getting the yeast to perform well in their high gravity situation. Also,
lipids were important as was cell number and  /actively growing/  cells.
Their results are in keeping with the advice generally given to brewers
attempting a high gravity fermentation - pitch high, pitch healthy yeast,
and oxygenate/aerate the wort well. Their results highlighting the
importance of adequate nitrogen shouldn't be too much of a problem if your
wort is all-grain (or extract from all-grain) based. Looks like the nitrogen
becomes a problem if you've bumped up the gravity by adding a lot of "empty
calories"  ie - added dextrose or sucrose.

Hope this helps

 -Alan Meeker





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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 09:09:30 -0800
From: "John Palmer" <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: De-Leading Brass

Adam asks: What's this (I've seen it mentioned before) about
de-leading brass plumbing
>fittings? Surely fittings supplied for potable water are "unleaded"?

In a word, "No." There is a small (3%) amount of lead in yellow brass
to facilitate machining. Given the small amount, it is not hazardous,
but if you do want to remove it (I do), then do the following. Rick
misquoted the solution, btw. It is supposed to be 2:1 vinegar to H2O2.

Cleaning Brass
Some brewers use brass fittings in conjunction with their wort
chillers or other brewing equipment and are concerned about the lead
that is present in brass alloys. A solution of two parts white vinegar
to one part hydrogen peroxide (common 3% solution) will remove tarnish
and surface lead from brass parts when they are soaked for 5-10
minutes at room temperature. The brass will turn a buttery yellow
color as it is cleaned. If the solution starts to turn green and the
brass darkens, then the parts have been soaking too long and the
copper in the brass is beginning to dissolve, exposing more lead. The
solution has become contaminated and the part should be re-cleaned in
a fresh solution.

John Palmer
metallurgist



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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:21:27 -0500
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at mteer.com>
Subject: Chiller efficiency and metal wetting ability

Hello,
  I was thinking of my counterflow chiller design using all copper when
the following dawned on me.  SS is bad for boiling because it is not
wetted easily by water, or so I heard here.  The effect of this is poor
heat transfer due to the air barrier between SS and water.  Does copper
have this same bad property?  I know copper conducts heat rapidly, but
if there is a barrier to water contact with the copper, that barrier
would restrict heat flow.  If this is a problem with copper are there
any one time copper coating liquids that can be used which transfer heat
effectively and can be wetted by water.  I was thinking maybe a
surfactant type liquid that adheres to copper.  Probably not necessary
for homebrewers, but my curiosity was sparked.

  Thanks for any information
  Doug Brown
- -- 
		     J. Doug Brown - Fairmont, WV
			Sr. Software Engineer
	         jbrown at mteer.com     jbrown at ewa.com
		www.labs.net/kbrown       www.ewa.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:49:47 -0500
From: "J. Doug Brown" <jbrown at mteer.com>
Subject: Canning hops?

Hello,
  What methods do you hops growers use to can hops.  I found a product I
was considering called "Vac-U-Pump" at: http://www.vac-u-pump.com/ ,no
affiliation.  Has anybody used this as part of canning hops?  Has
anybody dealt with this company?  Any Information, or other suggestions
would be helpful.  I was planning on removing the air from a canning jar
filled with hops, then freezing them till I was ready to use them.

  Thanks for the help
   Doug Brown
- -- 
		     J. Doug Brown - Fairmont, WV
			Sr. Software Engineer
	         jbrown at mteer.com     jbrown at ewa.com
		www.labs.net/kbrown       www.ewa.com


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 10:31:38 -0700
From: "J. Matthew Saunders" <matthew-saunders at uswest.net>
Subject: Stainless Steel VS copper Coil


Jerry asks:

>When making a chiller for a jockey box, is it imperative that I use a
>Stainless Coil? I know copper conducts Heat/cold much better, will it
>(copper) give me a metallic taste?  Also, anybody know of a good source
>for Stainless tubing?

I used a new copper fridge coil for my jocky box and it works great.  I
flush all the lines with clean water after each use.  I also flush with
iodophor and let sit for a day or two after the box has been used a fair
bit.  These days I'm not drinking much beer at all (perhaps 3 pints in the
last month) but leaving water in the coil doesn't seem to have caused any
problems.

Good Luck!
Matthew in CO



"We have to work in the theatre of our own time,
with the tools of our own time" --Robert Edmond Jones




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:39:38 -0800
From: "Hull, Ted" <THull at Brwncald.com>
Subject: burner mod.s

Thought I'd chime in on the subject of getting a keg to sit on top of a
Brinkmann or Cajun Cooker.

The solution I use is somewhat similar to John Varady's. And I don't think
that you have to weld, as Paul says.

The outer ring of my burner sits about 1/2" lower than the supports that the
keg actually rests on. I bought a short length of angle iron and cut it into
three pieces, each about 8" long, with a hacksaw.  I then notched each piece
(again with the trusty hacksaw) so that the notch fits over the outer ring
on the burner and about 3" to 4" of the angle sticks outside the burner. I
use one or two of those $1 small C clamps to clamp each section angle to the
support it rests atop.  My burner has three U-shaped supports, where the
bottom of the U is closest to the center of the burner when you look down
from above. All that the added pieces of angle do is extend the supports
outward and underneath the bottom ring of the keg. And I use 3 so that
they're equally spaced around the perimeter.  Here's why I like it:

1) No welding required, which means I can take it apart easily for
transport/storage.
2) My filled keg isn't depending on the friction of a tightened C clamp
alone for support.
3) Nothing is left over the fire, although I have eventually killed a clamp
or two (again, $1 each) after 2+ years of service.

Here's sorta what it looks like from the side:

          **********        <- added angle iron, clamp not shown
          *0
          *0
 00000*0000000000  <- outer ring of the burner
          *

 0000000000000000

Ted Hull
Atlanta, Georgia


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:36:31 -0800
From: J Daoust <thedaousts at ixpres.com>
Subject: re:counterflow chiller

Steve, I have a 50' section of 3/8" copper refrig line running through a
50' 5/8" garden hose. It works awesome and with the use of a pump drops
the temp down as close to the actual water temp as I can imagine
possible. All in all, the pump cuts the time down to ~5 minutes. At the
to cut the hose in half because of the friction. One thing you might try
is pulling the copper instead of pushing it. Maybe use a snake to get a
piece of small rope down the hose. Then pull it through. I was totally
amazed at how good it worked. I made the fittings for the garden hose
from parts at the hardware store for ~$10.00.


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:11:18 -0500
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Legality of distallation

Brewers,
    This past weekend, one of the other attendees of the MCAB2 told me that
it was legal to distill for personal use. Huh? Can this be true?
    Personally, I have no use for hooch, but I think it would be amusing to
set up a mini-still to distill a pint into a shot or two just for
experimental purposes. (I.e., what is left over of the hop flavor of an
American IPA? how about the malt flavors of a Scottish wee heavy?)
    So, what ARE the rules? (The reason I got thinking about this is an ad I
saw in an in-flight "mall" catalog for a tiny still, all glass with a
alcohol flame. Ridiculous price, but cool.)

Brew on!

Doug Moyer (AKA Dr. Pivo 49)
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity



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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:38:11 -0700
From: Bob Landry <utahbob at jps.net>
Subject: (no subject)




> 
> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 04:59:34 -0800
> From: "Brian Dixon." <briandixon at home.com>
> Subject: Mail order Phil's Philler?
> 

> Does anyone know of an online store, or have the phone number of a shop that
> does mail order, that DOES carry the Phil's Philler?  My initial searches
> have turned up zilch ...
> 
> Also, it seems I remember that the Phil's Philler was offered for a time
> with either nickel or chrome plating ... is my imagination going wild, or
> does anyone know anything about this?  If it's true, then is the plated
> version or the plain brass version better?  Why?
> 
> Thx MUCHO Amigo!
> 
> Brian
> 

Did a "Go Express" search using "Phil's Filler" as the identifier and
got 59 hits for retail sites that still sell this item. (One of them
referred to it as "...highly recommended...).
Got some good e-retail sites for my bookmarks at the same time.
So I'd say this is still definitely available, but I only saw it
described in brass. 

Bob 
PS- as an aside, Go Express is the most effective search engine I've
used yet.


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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:23:57 -0800
From: "Eugene Smith" <genonruth at mindspring.com>
Subject: phils philler

For Brian, who is looking for a Phils Philler ;;;;;  They are available from
heartshomebrew.com for a very reasonable price.

Geno




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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:31:03 -0700
From: "Michael J. Westcott" <mikew at sedona.net>
Subject: Why boil a cereal mash?

Somewhere in my reading, I came upon the temperature for 
gelatinization of rice at between 68-75 degrees C.  Is the boiling
of a cereal mash such as one composed of rice and 30% malt (or 
enzymes) for carmelization or flavor enhancement, or is there some
other chemical or physical reason for the boil? I've seen these issues
addressed in other HBD posts and in the archives, I just haven't seen
any definitive reasons. Wouldn't conversion and gelatinization occur 
at the temperatures stated above?  I know that a boil is traditional 
and recommended, I'm just not sure why.  I plan to brew a CAP style 
for one of my summer beers and would like to use rice or corn in a cereal
mash, in the past I have used flaked adjuncts or minute rice mixed 
with the grains and mashed without any pre-cooking.  Any other pointers
would be appreciated.

Thanks, Mike



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Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:49:09 +0000
From: James Jerome <jkjerome at bellsouth.net>
Subject: welding resource

Paul Niebergall recently mentioned in HBD#3285 about his brother-in-law
as a vo-tech trained welder.... 

My suggestion for brewers getting a RIMS together and hoping to keep
costs down is this.  Contact your local Community College or Vocational
Training School (even high school types) and find out who the welding
instructor is.  Generally they are quite amiable to real world projects
to train their students.  They will want to know exactly what needs
welding (metal-types and dimensions) and usually don't charge
anything.  But it may take a few weeks to get it done.  I had a gas
grill frame repaired this way over the Winter and they even sanded &
repainted.  Just ask the instructor...A promise of a few homebrews will
virtually guarantee success.  Students get training, you get your
specifc welding done, instructor has homebrew,...seems a a fairly
balanced equation to me.  Try it.

	 Jett Jerome in Ooh-te-Wahhh, TN


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