---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Budweiser Engineered Barley (Fred and Sue Nolke)
  re: Hops in the primary ("Doug Moyer")
  RE: Soldering RIMS heater connections (Jonathan Peakall)
  (no subject) (Bob Landry)
  Re:Everything you know is wrong (Jim)
  re-restarting stuck wine ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  Digital Timers ("Jimmy Hughes")
  (no subject) (Joe Kish)
  Re: Soldering RIMS heater connections (Jeff Lutes)
  bitter beer (BUILT RIGHT)
  Is Dave Oxidising? ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Re; Hey Mabel ("Peter J. Calinski")
  Popcorn (DakBrew)
  2nd Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results ("H. Dowda")
  Re: Off-Topic: Vinegar (Scott Murman)
  Soldering RIMS Connections (Mea & Marvin)
  vinegar from beer ("Stephen Alexander")
  re: HSA ("Stephen Alexander")
  attenuation again and again/Thanks ("Stephen Alexander")
  hand-held refractometers (Regan Pallandi)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 22:02:16 -0800
From: Fred and Sue Nolke <fnolke at alaska.net>
Subject: Budweiser Engineered Barley

The April issue of "Wired" has a double page spread of  August Busch III
and a grower standing in a barley field reaching the horizon, with the
leader "getting to the very soul of beer".  It goes on to say "We're
breeding barley varieties that offer the best taste and consistency for
our brewers, and the most versatile growing characteristics for our
dedicated growers.  Of the many varieties of barley that they grow,
there are two basic types.  Two-row is for smoothness and sweetness.
Six-row is for crispness.  Our brewmasters blend them to provide
Budweiser with just the right balance, just as they've done for 123
years....."  The question to you all is; has anyone ever come accross a
factual basis for the statement that "Two-row is for smoothness and
sweetness", or is this a continuation of the 123 year tradition of
letting the Bud marketing boys dream up unrelated words with which to
sell ever more tasteless beer.  And how does "crispness" relate to
six-row?  Or are these perhaps barley characterisics that came from that
nightmare you had where everything went wrong that could, and you ended
up including rice in your grain bill instead of your chinese carry-out.
So maybe it's compared to rice that six-row and two-row taste smooth,
sweet, and crisp.

When first we practice to deceive....

Fred Nolke,   Anchorage



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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 11:56:31 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Hops in the primary

Brewers,
    While discussing Charles Sprigg's concerns about all the stuff in his
fermenter, Jeff Renner sez:

<snip>
>I'm hoping it will settle out and when I rack to my secondary I'll have
nice
>clear beer.  What are the chances of that?

Very good if you used pellets.  Whole hops are probably going to be a bit
more trouble.  It will still be beer, you may just get a little less than
you planned on.  Now you know from experience what not to do.
</snip>

I think Jeff's point is that the whole hops will hold back some of your
precious beer. That isn't really a problem with regard to whether the beer
will drop clear, which might be one interpretation of Jeff's comment.

Some of my clearest beers (I don't filter, and the beers are never colder
than serving temp of ~45F) were dry hopped IPAs, where I used loose whole
hops in the secondary. (Of course, I have had a hop cone make it into the
keg and get stuck in my "out" poppet keeping the elixir from reaching my
glass. Sigh.)

Either way, don't worry. Charlie got that much right.

Brew on!

Ing. Makju
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry






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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:08:31 -0700
From: Jonathan Peakall <jpeakall at mcn.org>
Subject: RE: Soldering RIMS heater connections

Tom and Dee wrote about solder power connections for a RIMS:

>>in a word don't.  Heavy current carrying wires can heat up.  If they
>>heat up to much, the solder may melt and run or fracture and
>>create a bad joint which will heat even more.  If it runs and ends up
>>on some portion of the metal frame and you touch it - crispy critter.

>>So..... even if you think crimp or screw connectors are a pain, for
>>heavy current wire, they are what you should be using.




Now, I'm not claiming to be an electrical engineer. However, I have done
an awful lot of wiring both for myself and for a living, on boats, cars,
airplanes and houses. I find it hard to believe that soldering the
connections for a RIMS heater is a bad idea. Firstly, solder has a
higher point of melting than insulation. If a wire is hot enough to melt
solder, you are going to be melting your insulation. Secondly, if one
has wires that are  getting hot enough to even think about melting
solder, there is a a fundamental problem to the system, perhaps under
gauge wire or poor connections. In any case, there is an underlying
issue that needs to be resolved. In a properly designed system, breakers
or fuses will trip before solder can melt. I can say that in all marine
applications that I have seen, all connections are soldered. Of course,
in marine applications, corrosion of the terminal is an important issue,
and soldered connections are not as prone to degrade. Poor connections
are one of the greatest contributors to overheating wire. I personally
have never seen or heard of a situation where an otherwise correctly
functioning system has failed due to solder melt off. And I find it hard
to see the amount of solder used in a correctly soldered connection
going very far. Perhaps a way over soldered joint on a poorly
designed/built system might have that trouble, but if that is the case,
it is not the practice of soldering connections that led to the failure,
any more than your runny nose is responsible for your cold.

Just my $.02. Any real electrical genius have any words of wisdom?

Jonathan Peakall



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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 13:14:50 -0600
From: Bob Landry <utahbob at jps.net>
Subject: (no subject)

Subject: OG vs. FG: Do I got a problem?

Just bottled a run of a porter that went from an OG of 1.063 to an FG of
1.020. This FG seems kind of high to me, but then I've never done a brew
with that high an OG.
Am I about to experience the exploding bottle syndrome, or is this
difference within reason.

Bob Landry
Utah: where homebrew ingredients are sold as food.


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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 17:02:57 -0400
From: Jim <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Re:Everything you know is wrong

Rick Magnan writes:

"Phil, Jim and Eric have reported how they were led astray by
know-it-alls in books and people and that so much of it was 
complete and utter BS after some experience had been gained."
Being admittedly slow on the uptake, this insight of experience
has yet to reveal itself to me.  Perhaps its that I've only been at 
it 8 years and 70 batches.  Perhaps I'm just overlooking the obvious.
Does this simply mean that you have discovered you can ferment in
an open container OR a closed system?  That you can use a blow off 
tube OR not?  That your secondary does not reek of autolysis "rubber"
stench in a week's time?
Please, share with us these many published and widely held falsehoods 
that have, and continue to mislead so many of us so that we too, may 
be freed from the shackles of unrighteous brewing advice!"

But how would you know if _my_ advice is 'righteous'  or not without
verifying it for yourself?   Have you learned anything from 8 years of
brewing?  Have you never deviated from the 'gospel' in whatever book you
learned to brew from, even accidentally?  Never tried something different
and perhaps even outrageous just to see what would happen?  Never badly
mishandled hot wort and had your beer turn out okay, and even perhaps
great?  Never run out of sanitizer and just rinsed out your fermenter with
tap water and _didn't_ have infected beer as a result? (Lucky me, I don't
seem to have much of a bacterial load in my water system.)  Never run a
'spurment' a la Pivo?  And on and on....
I am NOT suggesting that you or anyone else stop reading beer books or
reading anyone's posts in the HBD or anywhere else, just that you apply
logic, critical thinking and your own empirical knowledge to other's ideas
and pronouncements, and keep in mind that 'authorities' aren't necessarily
right because they sound authoritative.

Dr. Pivo du jour,


Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptdprolog.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 17:15:27 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re-restarting stuck wine

Mike said >>it wouldn't hurt to just toss a packet of K1V in and see
if it fixes the problem before he launches off on a crusade.<<

   Silly me, I thought he'd want a method that would get it going and
finish it
up without any more failures. Didn't know he'd want to try a "let's see
what
happens" approach.

N.P.(Del)Lansing 


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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:20:27 -0400
From: "Jimmy Hughes" <inspector at bmd.clis.com>
Subject: Digital Timers

I have found a neat digital timer for timing my boils.

See below...

Happy trails to you, 'til we meet again..............
Check out the free items, go to,
http://www.ncinspections.com
scroll down, click on the free after rebate link........
Save money, enjoy........
 


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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 19:15:14 -0700
From: Joe Kish <JJKISH at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: (no subject)

If Lou Heavner's grandmother can take a sip of his "Carlings
Red C.A.P.", she will recognize the beer from her youth if he
uses regular corn.
 The only corn that don't need a Cerial Mash is flaked maize,
but that does not give a lot of flavor.   Popcorn has NO flavor.
Go to an Farm animal feed store and buy a bag of 'cracked
corn', also called Albers' Chicken Scratch.  It's not as fine as
corn meal so it won't give a stuck mash.  Mix some six-row
pale with it and hold it at 148 degrees F for 20 minutes, then
simmer for a half hour. Mix it with your main mash.
You won't be sorry.   Grandmother will want another glass!
 So will you and your friends!
       Joe Kish      jjkish at worldnet.att.net









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Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 22:09:19 -0500
From: Jeff Lutes <jlutes at osprey.net>
Subject: Re: Soldering RIMS heater connections

Someone named Tom & Dee McConnell stated:

>in a word don't.  Heavy current carrying wires can heat up.  If they 
>heat up to much, the solder may melt and run or fracture and 
>create a bad joint which will heat even more.  If it runs and ends up 
>on some portion of the metal frame and you touch it - crispy critter.

In a word, B.S.  I have worked on all sizes of large current circuits way
beyond what your going to pull with a RIMS heater and have soldered many of
the connections and never had a problem.  The melting point of a good
electrical solder is quite high...normally higher than the melting point of
the wire insulation (ever noticed that as you solder a wire, if you're not
careful, you'll end up melting some of the insulation close to the joint?).
 My point is, if your drawing enough current to melt your solder, you've
got enough to torch your wire!

As for electrical shock, as I've stated before, I suggest putting your
whole system on a GFI circuit.


Gemus Brauen Haus
  



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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 06:57:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: BUILT-RIGHT at webtv.net (BUILT RIGHT)
Subject: bitter beer

i made a german ale beer from a kit. beer look,s good .and is clear



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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 22:41:18 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Is Dave Oxidising?

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude. In fact it would be unkind of me to make fun
of Dave Burley. Like him or hate him, he is certainly consistent. And whilst
he is giving Phil Wilcox a beating about the ears for using strong language
and failing to boil with the lid half on, well perhaps I had best slip out
the back door.

As for being a saviour of new brewers. Well I don't think that part fits me
well either Dave. If you haven't completely confused them with your science,
I am sure I must have with some of my lunatic stories. But hopefully someone
has had a laugh along the way.


Cheers
Phil (Wilcox? - how did he slip in here?)
Bullshitter Of Burradoo
And User of Strong Language



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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 18:00:34 -0400
From: "Peter J. Calinski" <PCalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re; Hey Mabel

Good luck, I hope you find the recipe.  If you do, please pass it to me.

Black Label was my one and only beer for nearly 30 years.  Then I
discovered homebrewing.  That's why they are almost out of business.  I cut
way back on purchases.  I still try to keep some around as a tradition. 
The last case of cans I bought around Thanksgiving was too far gone. 

It seems I had (have) quite a reputation as a Black Label drinker.  This
past Thursday an old friend that I hadn't seen in over 10 years dropped by.
 After just minutes of "how are the wife and kids etc.", he asked, "Do you
still drink Black Label?"

About 5 years ago, I ran into my old collage roommate that I hadn't seen
since I left school 25 years before.  Same damn story, "Do you still drink
Black Label?"

I guess a guy could be known for worse things.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY



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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:50:08 EDT
From: DakBrew at aol.com
Subject: Popcorn

Lou Heavner asks "any opinions as to whether or not popcorn could be used?  
Would you try to crush the kernals or dry (air) pop it and add to the mash?  
Wish I could brew as many 'spurments as our beloved doc pivo.
     TIA..."

You will get a number of opinions on this one. However I have this experiment 
going right now, a CAPCA (Classic American Popcorn Cream Ale) I decided to go 
with Ale yeast because I am unwilling to wait 2 months for results. 

I will be racking 10 gal to secondary today It tasted good when it went in to 
primary. I hit the target gravity right on the nose. 11gal of beer at 1.054. 
In short Popping the corn with Air seems to have gelatinized the starch in 
the corn. Only time will tell if the beer is any good. 

If you think it will save time over a cereal mash and boiling to gelatinize 
the starch think again. Wile it saved time on brewday, the day before It took 
me 8  1/2 cup batches in the hotair popper to pop 2lb of Popcorn. And then I 
realized it was taking up most of a trashbag in volume so I started to crush 
it by hand to reduce the volume. After that I started crushing each batch 
before adding it to the bag.

The grain bill was
Pilsner malt    10lb
wheat malt      5lb
Popcorn     4lb (weighed before I popped it with a hot air popper)
CaraMunich      2lb  (this was for color mostly I would cut back to . 5 or 
1lb for a closer to style batch)
Cara-pils       1lb

Mash
Strike with 7gl H2O to hit 164F 
The Popcorn took up a lot of volume (one fairly full 13gl trash bag. inspite 
of being crushed by hand after popping) so I added it to my Mashtun 
(converted Keg) with the water. it shrinks up some when it gets wet. I heated 
the water Popcorn mixture to strike temp and added the rest of the grain.
Rest at 164F 30 min
Raise temp with heat to 158F    Rest 60 min
Raise temp to mash out 168F with 2gl of boiling water and direct heat.  Hold 
15 min
Sparge with 170F water 
First Wort Hop with 2 oz Sazz 
Collect 13.5 gl of sweet wort

Hops
FWH 2oz Sazz 3.1 Alpha
60 min 1oz Northern Brewer 7.2 alpha
30 min 1oz Northern Brewer 7.2 alpha

Chill to 64 F and Pitch 4 Packets of Notingham rehydrated yeast.

I will definatly Post actual tasting notes on this beer as soon as they are 
available.

Cheers
Dan K
(Dan Dan The Popcorn Man)


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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 10:14:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "H. Dowda" <hdowda at yahoo.com>
Subject: 2nd Annual Palmetto State Brewers Open Results

http://www.sagecat.com/results.htm

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com


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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Scott Murman <smurman at best.com>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic: Vinegar


regarding making vinegar - i've been doing it with some of my less
spectacular meads and beers.  i've heard that starting a new "ferment"
from a small portion of the mother helps the result.  i.e., instead of
"pitching" onto the complete mother, grab a small culture from a
smaller bottle, etc. and build that up again.  anyone have more than
idle speculation on such?

 -SM-



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Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 12:40:16 -0700
From: Mea & Marvin <mcmc at loop.com>
Subject: Soldering RIMS Connections

RE:
So..... even if you think crimp or screw connectors are a pain, for
heavy current wire, they are what you should be using.

Tom & Dee McConnell (tdmc at bigfoot.com)
Littleport, Ely, Cambs (UK)

Actually before you solder anything a strong physical connection, i.e.,
splice, crimp, clamp, etc., must be made first.

After the strong physical connection is established you can solder to
your heart's content. Done correctly it will only improve the connection
by reducing resistance.

If solder melting from heat ever becomes an issue, you have too much
current draw for the application. A correctly soldered joint will not
have enough excess solder to run or drip anywhere.

Mine is a vast compendium of largely useless knowledge.

Marvin Campbell
Culver City (A small mining community south of Beverly Hills)





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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 00:12:23 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: vinegar from beer

John S Thompson asks ...
>Does anyone know how to make vinegar from old (red or white) wine?

Not exactly.  I've been making vinegar from late runnings after no-sparge
and from starter beer for a couple years now.  I have not had contamination
from either vinegar or sauerkraut making affect my brewing.  After the wort
(preferably ~SG=1.050, unhopped  and with some colored malt) has fully
fermented a starter acetic acid culture is introduced which converts the
alcohol to acetic acid(vinegar) over a period of 4 to 8 weeks.  Air/oxygen
is needed to convert ethanol into acetic acid, but wild airborne bacteria
can result in cultures that continue the oxidation and produce acetone.  I
doubt that dregs from commercial wine vinegar is a good source of a starter
since vinegar is pasteurized, filtered and sugar is added.  It's like trying
to get a yeast culture from a bottle of Bud.

You can buy a clean culture (a 'mother of vinegar') from many HB shops for a
couple dollars.  If your local HB shop doesn't carry this call
http://www.grapeandgranary.com/  800-695-9870.

I am not aware of any good books on the topic, tho' I have a couple awful
ones (pamphlets).  Contact me off-line if you need specific information.
 -S






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Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 23:10:06 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: HSA

Pivo writes that "HSA rides again".  Among the obligatory and now tiresome
personal innuendo against me he says ..

>I might briefly reiterate a little spearmint I did  [...]
>At the end of the boil, I let a portion go flying through the air [...]
>HSA was a "no-show"

I see you still are having problems accurately reading my posts.

I wrote both last year and just recently that the trans-2-nonenal formation
most associated w/ staling is (according to the lit) related to ENZYMIC
OXIDATION IN THE MASH.  Your 'speriment  which gives oxygen access to beer
long after the enzymes are gone, then you taste it at 8 weeks, is nearly
irrelevant to this issue - as I told you last year.

What part of "Your experiment fails to test the hypothesis" are you having
difficulty with ?

 -S





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Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 16:56:34 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: attenuation again and again/Thanks

First ... What is meant by the attenuation of brewing yeast.  The British
'National Collection of Yeast Cultures'(NCYC) categorized their lager and
ale cultures by the following statement.

>Attenuation
>An indirect measurement of the conversion of wort sugars to alcohol.
>The coding relates to the attenuation achieved after 6 days:
>1.006-1.008 : 5,      1.008-1.010 : 4,     1.010-1.012 : 3,
>1.012-1.014 : 2,      1.014-1.016 : 1.
>ie 1 denotes a product which is sweet at the end of fermentation
> with a high S.G. (1.016)  5 denotes a product which is dry at the
>end of fermentation with a low S.G. (1.006)

Sadly I know nothing more about the conditions of this 'test'.  Whether
Wyeast uses the same method is unclear. Also obviously most lager
fermentations are not over after 6 days.

Incidentally - you can get from the UK NCYC website to Jeff Renner's
name/email in three mouse clicks !!!  [take that Kevin Bacon].  Is this guy
connected or what ?
===

Doug Moyer says ...

>All you librarians out there: what does the literature say about variations
>between COMMON strains of yeasts and their ability to process various
>sugars?

There is significant variation among brewing yeast ('Yeast Catalog' lists
some) in the specific sugars they can ferment - *BUT* Doug - the sum of all
of these odd sugars in wort is not sufficient to sustain the argument..  The
NCYC range implies about 8 SG apparent degrees (abt 6.5 real degrees) of
attenuation difference among yeasts.

Consider a wort assay, 1.0430SG. [43 degrees]

  3.6 deg  NON-carbohydrates.
30.1 deg fermentable sugars [sucrose, fructose, glucose, maltose,
               maltotriose]
  7.8 deg dextrins of DP5 or greater
             (not fermentable by brewing yeasts)

Of the remaining 1.5 real degrees we have -

0.46 from isomaltose (not considered fermentable)
0.19 from DP3 other than maltotriose (including any raffinose)
0.81 from DP4 sugars (abt 0.6 deg of this from maltotetraose)

As you can see the last three items add to 1.5 degrees which is far less
than the 6.5 real degrees NCYC ranges - yet these are the only items which
are in serious question.  Even if you threw in *all* of the DP4 thru DP8
saccharides into question it would not  account for even half difference.

===

>Most of the variation that I've seen discussed on the hbd refers only to
>lager yeasts' ability to ferment mannose (or perhaps another dextrin),

I *think* you mean raffinose or melibiose.  As Doug suggests these are not
of concern in wort. There isn't enough to bother with.

>Assuming you had identical wort composition, why would 1056 attenuate
>differently from 1728? Simple question. Anyone have a answer that isn't
>just a WAG?

The answer is obvious by deduction.  As Alan Meeker said,  the difference is
that the *supposedly* fermentable sugars are not always or completely
fermented in time (6 days).  Alan and I differ in our explanation about
which sugars *might* be left over.  I have never heard it suggested
seriously that brewing yeast might lack invertase to consume sucrose (worth
only 0.77deg anyway), but the lit regularly reports incomplete consumption
of maltotriose.  The maltotriose is worth 4.1 deg of real attenuation, which
explains much of the NCYC (~6.5 deg) range.

When yeast reach their growth limits, then as a result their energy use and
fermentation rate drops and also as a result their cell surface properties
change and they (usually) flocc and drop.  I cannot fully explain why yeast
would not continue to ferment at a slow rate after flocculation *IF*
fermentable sugars are left.

The reason why they will bottle ferment is that the priming sugar acts
directly to remove flocculation and restore growth conditions.  Healthy
cell surface properties can be restored and so fermentation continues.
This assumes that sugar was the growth limiting factor.
==
On a more speculative note, DaveB's support of DeClerc could be correct yet
this definition of attenuation differences (6 day limit) still be useful..
I still have doubts but that's a different matter.

It actually makes sense to me that yeast not consume every last molecule of
fermentable sugars.  At some point the concentration drops sufficiently that
their energetic needs cannot be met. At what point is an interesting
question.

=======

Thanks to Hubert Hangofer (via Jeff R) for the insight into FWH.

And thanks again to Lynne at St.Pats for the excellent posts.  I was
especially interested to read what she wrote re Czech mash thickness
(thinness) which supports the content of M&BS, and contradict a BT article
on the topic.

 -S






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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:28:53 +1000
From: Regan Pallandi <regan at esb.net.au>
Subject: hand-held refractometers

Hey all - I have had a request from a customer to locate a hand-held
refractometer. Can anyone provide info on availability/suppliers and prices
for such an instrument? 

thanks, Regan

Eastern Suburbs Brewmaker
149 Clovelly Rd. Randwick, 2031
N.S.W. Australia
ph/fax (02) 9399 8241
mailto:regan at esb.net.au
http://www.esb.net.au


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