---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Solder Saga ("Francois Zinserling")
  Chicken Feed (William Frazier)
  Re: RIMS electrical connections & question (Jeff Lutes)
  RIMS ("James Johnson")
  Sorry Phil Wilcox (Dave Burley)
  Hello Fellow Brewers (GarthFanY2k)
  Yeast question for the Guru (Graham Sanders)
  Clayton Cone question ("Micah Millspaw")
  yeast questions on flavor profile ("Czerpak, Pete")
  high hops UK barleywine and water minerals ("Czerpak, Pete")
  Hey Mabel/Popcorn (Richard Foote)
  Re: Infusion Mashing help - Jeremy Arntz ("Sieben, Richard")
  A Poem ("Drew Avis")
  Everything you know is wrong ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Budweiser Engineered Barley (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Hey Mabel... (Jeff Renner)
  infection? (cbuckley)
  Yeast Hydration, Infusion Mashing and England (Dan Listermann)
  RE: Eric Murry - Everything you know is wrong (NYBombersFan)
  Infusion Mashing Help (Lance Levsen)
  Re: soldering connections (Susan/Bill Freeman)
  Hot-Side Aeration ("Michael A Nemier")
  Repost on Lager Yeasts at Ale Temperatures ("Dittmar, Robert D")
  Bob Bratcher Writes ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  RE: Soldering RIMS heater connection (Rod Prather)


* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!

* 18th Annual Oregon Homebrew Festival - entry deadline May 15th
* More info at:  http://www.hotv.org/fest2000

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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:25:04 +0200
From: "Francois Zinserling" <francois at designtech.co.za>
Subject: Solder Saga

Tom and Dee wrote about solder power connections for a RIMS:

>in a word don't.  Heavy current carrying wires can heat up.  If they
>heat up to much, the solder may melt and run or fracture and
>create a bad joint which will heat even more.  If it runs and ends up
>on some portion of the metal frame and you touch it - crispy critter.

>So..... even if you think crimp or screw connectors are a pain, for
>heavy current wire, they are what you should be using.


and they got creamed by just about everybody, for trying to be helpful.

Now, me, I'm still smarting from the wallopping I received on the "water
in the microwave" saga, when I justly had to maneuvre my foot out of
my mouth after being bowled over on a technicality. However, I cannot
leave all of you to kick Tom while he's down, so here's to his defense :

The most widely used solders are those containing about 40 percent
tin and 60 percent lead, sometimes 50/50, with or without small per
centages of antimony.

Some lead alloys, which could easily be mistaken for "the most widely
used solders" contain bismuth, tin. cadmium and mostly lead, to form
a low melting point eutectic. These are typically used for the manufacture
of, wait for it : .... FUSES .. and .. FIRE DETECTION (sprinklers).
Designed to melt quickly, and at relatively low temperatures.

On the other hand tin/lead solders containing 5 percent antimony (or silver)
are preferred for electrical equipment because of their higher electrical
conductivity than high-lead alloys.

It is therefore technically possible for "solder" to melt !before! the
insulation,
given certain circumstances.

However, Tom, in most cases the solder will crack first, when subjected to
excessive physical stresses (ever noticed that the part that's been
soldered just refuses to bend ... !%$! at % and you cannot fit it back into
that little enclosure ?) It is also possible to cause a "dry" joint if you
don't
hold steady while the liquid solder solidifies. A stress crack or dry joint
normally leaves little area for electricity to flow through, forming a high
resistance point, and turns your solder joint into a very effective heater
element, quite capable of self-destructing, or more hazardous events.

Therefore : If your solder melts like butter : you've got the wrong stuff.
If
all your wires are melting : you're overloading your circuit, with little or
no
protection circuitry. If only your solder joint melts : you may have cracked
the
solder connection, or a combination of the above. If you receive a jolt :
you
are playing with the lions' balls! Get a qualified person to check it! (the
wiring,
not the balls)

For permanent connections I prefer to solder, rather than a physical
connection (screw, clamp or splice). I make sure that I use an electric
grade
solder, (hardware stockist knows the difference) a hot enough (and big
enough) solder iron, and a steady hand.

For a good solder connection :
Make sure you get a good overlap of wires (don't solder end to end). A twist
or a splice with solder (if possible) is even better.
When soldering, heat the wires, rather than the solder. Apply a little
solder to
the iron tip to improve heat conductivity. Try to heat up both wires (on the
overlap) simultaneously. Do not heat the solder! Heat the wires!
Apply the solder at the joining area between the overlapped wires
until the heated wire melts the solder. If the wire seems to soak up the
liquid,
then you're doing it right. Apply a generous amount until the whole joint
seems "saturated" with solder. Remove iron and hold steady for a few
seconds. (dry joints are formed, if you shake) Try not to blow it cold
either (except if your fingers are burning !)

BE SAFE

Cheers
ZING (ZA)
Title : ................




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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 21:45:30 +0000
From: William Frazier <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Chicken Feed

First, thank you Jeff Renner for the CAP recipe.  I LOVE THESE BEERS as they
taste like beer did back in my youth and in my father's time.  Excellent!
I've modified Jeff's recipe to use all Saaz leaf hops and my wife (she who
only drinks Schaeffers Light) even likes it.

Joe Kish says "If Lou Heavner's grandmother can take a sip of his "Carlings
Red C.A.P.", she will recognize the beer from her youth if he uses regular corn.
Go to an Farm animal feed store and buy a bag of 'cracked corn'"

Well, today I stopped by the Farmer's Union Coop in Spring Hill, Kansas and
bought a 50 pound bag of Farm Land Cracked Corn for $4.85.  This works out
to 9.7 cents per pound.  This will really put a dent in the price of
homebrew and I expect great things out of this corn.  Why not ~ everything
else I buy from the Coop works great!

The corn is cracked, just like Joe Kish describes it.  Looks like it could
use a pass through my Corona Mill.

If any of you local guys/gals would like some of my 50 pounds get in touch.
At 2 pounds per 6 gallon batch this will last me 25 batches of beer.  Makes
me thirsty.

Regards,

        Bill Frazier
        Olathe, Kansas



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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 17:42:04 -0500
From: Jeff Lutes <jlutes at osprey.net>
Subject: Re: RIMS electrical connections & question

After reading my own reply to this message, I must apologize to
<bigger>Tom and Dee.  It was not my intention to be rude...it was a very
bad day.


I also have a question about soil composition for hops.  I live in an
area that has quite a bit of clay and was wondering if I should add sand,
peat moss, or something else for a decent hops crop.


Gemus Brauen Haus</bigger>


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Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 20:29:58 -0700
From: "James Johnson" <JaScJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RIMS

I have a ten gallon polorware brew pot, false bottom, and temp gauge.  I
also have a magnetic pump.  I use a cajun cooker for a heat source.
Is it possible to use the above as a RIMS with out a hot water heater
element?
Has anyone done this with sucess?
I mostly wonder about mash in.  Do you mash in by stirring with a mash
paddle let the mash set (wording?) and then start the recirculating? Or do
you run the pump while mashing in?
Also, do you recirculate only during temp boosts or do you recirculate the
whole time you are mashing?

Thanks for any advice.

Scott






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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:46:03 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Sorry Phil Wilcox

Brewsters:

Well, I made my one mistrake for the year already.

Calling Phil Yates, Phil Wilcox and blasting him was a looloo. Please
excuuuse me Dr. Wilcox!

Phil Yates, I do find your <obvious> humourous writing to be just that and
have had many smiles at your cleverness as a result.  Unfortunately, as I
have often said, this medium is not a subtle one and I often find that fine
line between humor and insult difficult to see even with my glasses on.
Sitting over a beer and making remarks is one thing, putting it in writing
which is open to imterpretation is entirely another thing.

Facts are that one must try something and do careful experiments or prove
that another researcher has before you declare someone else is full of BS
for commenting or suggestting something.  It is not only impolite it is
misleading or to be blunt, lying unless you say "I have an opinion based on
absolutely no information and that is...."

You will recall that I suggested that others try to understand how
important oxidation was to homebrewed beer by actually trying it on their
<own> system. I have tasted a lot of homebrew and hot wort oxidation is
probably the most prevalent and universal fault.  If you have always made
your beer by open boiling and pouring hot wort through the air then you
would probably not recognize the effect of a minor change in procedure.
Which was my point on Pivo's supposed experiment. If his homebrews are
heavily oxidised already by other practices then he wouldn't recognise any
difference by a minor oxidation.  That was my point that his conclusions
were not necessarily logical, since it assumed his control was not
oxidised.  I don't know that.

Frankly, I will believe  that scientific literature and my own taste buds
that says wort oxidation at high temperatures is not a good thing. Check it
out on your own system.
- --------------------------------------
Regan, Check with the professional wine equipment suppliers in Oz. A hand
held refractometer is a standard piece of equipment.
- --------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 23:03:56 EDT
From: GarthFanY2k at cs.com
Subject: Hello Fellow Brewers

This lowly extract brewer has a question.  I just brewed my third batch ever. 
 When i say JUST i mean JUST.  I brewed a English Brown Ale from a Brewer's 
Best Kit.  My S.G. is too low.  It is supposed to be 1.040-1.047 and it 
started at 1.028 or so.  I think i added too much water.  First question is, 
did I ruin this batch forever?  Second question is, if not how, do i fix it.  
I would appreciate any help the experienced HBD subscribers can give me.  
Thank you.  You guys and gals are a WEALTH of info to a beginner like me.

Brewin in Virginia,

Rick Hyburg

Private E-Mails appreciated!!!!!  


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:35:26 +1000
From: Graham Sanders <GrahamS at bsa.qld.gov.au>
Subject: Yeast question for the Guru


G'day all

Lets set the ball rolling.

I use a counterflow cooler and let the cold break go into the fermenter
through a simple natural airation tube.

Given that this is not the ideal "saturation" of O2 that many say is
necessary, I believe that if you under-airate the wort like this, it is
actually benefical to have the cold break left in, as it allows more O2 to
be diverted to sterol and other essential membrane production, as the yeast
can use the cold break in other areas (yes I'm not THAT technically minded).

If this is true, would it be benefical for most homebrewers, (who dont
airate their beers enough, to leave the cold break in the main wort.

Shout

Graham Sanders


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:39:48 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: Clayton Cone question

Mr. Cone,

I would like to hear your opinion on 
oxygenation vs. aeration of wort for 
the purpose of:
 1. yeast propagation (increasing boimass)
2. normal yeast fermentaion (just making beer)

By aeration I mean the use of atmospheric gases
in the naturally occuring varieties and volumes.
Oxygenation being the use of almost pure oxygen.

Micah Millspaw 



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:12:04 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: yeast questions on flavor profile

A few yeast questions that resulted from some competition comments:

1) Is the Wyeast Fullers strain, 1968, thought to throw off deacetyl type
compounds? Could use of about 10% flaked maize contribute to this taste?

2) What would low temperature conditions do to the flavor profile of the
Wyeast Weihestephen yeast in terms of phenol, clove, banana tastes?  Are
these sensitive greatly to a 62deg F ferment temperature?

Thanks for the help.

Its about time to be brewing again.  

Pete Czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:23:21 -0400
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: high hops UK barleywine and water minerals

Good morning again,

I'm slowly drinking down the results of my double barley wine batch from
early this winter. Not exactly now, but a bit later in the day....  

Does anybody know of or have dranken a UK brewed barley wine that is high in
hops as opposed to more malty?  Does Fullers version taste like this?
Anchors Old Foghorn and G. DePiros Ol'Musty are good examples of american
brewed barley wines that are more malt and less hops.  Do the English ever
overdue the hops and imitate more the american style?

Final question for the day - if my mash water is fine for mashing, can I
just added my minerals (mainly gypsum) at boiling to get my Albany water
closer to UK water to bring out the crispness in my bitters and IPAs? Or
will the mash really benefit as well? 

Thanks.

pete czerpak
Albany, NY


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:13:23 -0400
From: Richard Foote <rfoote at mindspring.com>
Subject: Hey Mabel/Popcorn

Joe Kish <JJKISH at worldnet.att.net> advises:
>Go to an Farm animal feed store and buy a bag of 'cracked
>corn', also called Albers' Chicken Scratch.  It's not as fine as
>corn meal so it won't give a stuck mash.

One concern about using a product produced for livestock would be the
possibility it might have some additives you don't want in your beer.
Being from the self- proclaimed "poultry capital of the world" in
Gainesville, Georgia and working in a building that in a former life was
used for blending pharmaceuticals into chicken feed, I'd caution that one
should check the ingredient content first to be sure.

Jeff Renner writes:
>The problem with cracked corn is that it has the corn germ with all the
corn oil.  >It can easily go rancid.  The old brewing texts are quite
explicit about this,
>but George DePiro and Jack Schmidling have both reported success with
>freshly ground whole corn.  If I were to use cracked corn I think I'd grind
>it myself so it was fresh.  Don't use anything that smells like old oil
>paint.

The point Jeff makes about oil content is well taken.  I remember a tour of
Jack Daniels Distillery I took a few years back (highly recommended BTW).
You could walk on an elevated walkway within an arms length of open top
fermenters full of corn mash.  As I recall, the tour leader encouraged us
to dip a finger in and taste it if we wanted.  Spying a likely looking pool
of liquid, I did just that.  Not what I expected--pure corn oil!

I have brewed sucessfully with popcorn--sort of a cream ale.  It was popped
w/o oil, of course, using a skillet shaken on the stove top so as to
prevent burning.  It was a pain.  An air popper would have been the
equipment of choice, but I did not have one.  It was entered in this "wierd
beer" competition and got a third place overall.  The popped popcorn was
simply added to the grist just prior to mash-in.  Everything seemed to
convert quite well, yielding a clear beer w/o any noticeable starch haze.
The beer had a slight, toasted popcorny aroma when young that faded as it
aged.

Hope this helps,

Rick Foote
Whistle Pig Brewing and Home Remodeling
Murrayville, GA




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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 08:45:31 -0500
From: "Sieben, Richard" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
Subject: Re: Infusion Mashing help - Jeremy Arntz

Jeremy lists equipment and his intended procedure to make 2.5 to 3 gallon
batches.

Sure, you can do this, but it really doesn't take any more time to do a 5
gallon batch.  I would skip the purchase of a 5 gallon stainless pot and
spend the same money for a 33qt enamle pot so you can do full wort boils on
5 gallons.  Also, for the same price you can get a 10 gallon square picnic
cooler as the price you specified for a 5 gallon one.  I prefered this type
of cooler because I could make a pipe manifold for lautering out of pvc
plastic pipe.  As an added bonus, you can mash in the same cooler, and since
you already have the smaller aluminum pot, you could use that for heating
decoctions, should you decide to try your hand at that type of mashing.  (I
did that on my first all grain batch becuase I found I couldn't really do
step mashing in the cooler as it took too much water to raise temps!)  I
would skip the mesh bag idea because, 1)it is just another thing to clean 2)
it will decrease your mash efficiency, thus causing you to need more grain
3) your grain bed in the mash/lauter tun -cooler- will act as a filter
anyway. The cost of the pvc manifold (which I just pieced together, not
glueing any parts so it can be disassembled and cleaned after each use) is
about the same as the mesh bag.

So for no additional cost beyond what you stated, you are now set up for
single, step infusion or decoction mashing!

As to procedure, your mash in temp looks ok, you may need to infuse
additional amounts of boiling water to maintain the 150 degree temp, so have
some on hand.  When  you mash out, start by running off some of the wort
into a small pot and recirculate it through the mash bed until it runs
clear.  Try not to splash too much if you are planning on keeping this beer
for an extended period of time (1 year) to avoid the much dreaded HSA.  (but
if you drink it faster than that, splash with impunity if you so wish).
{another log on the HSA fire, hehehehe}  You add your sparge water as
needed, needed defined as 'don't let the top of the grain bed appear above
the level of liquid in your mash'.  This is to prevent 'setting' the mash
and liquid will not continue to run through it, but rather cracks will
appear in the surface of the bed and will let any additional sparge water
run around it,leaving your sugars trapped in the grain.  

I would have 5 gallons of sparge water on hand, you may not need it all but
you can tell by hydrometer reading when you should stop.  (at sparge temps
the hydrometer should read 1.000, at least it worked well for me).

Grains:  all malt is by definition 'modified', but maybe what you are asking
is which ones have enzymes still availble for the mashing process.
Basically any light malt still has them as they have not been heated to the
point of denatureing the enzymes, 2-row, 6-row, pale malt etc.  Any
specialty malts such as carmel, black patent, chocolate malt do not have
little or no enzymes left to work with so that they will not convert
themselves, which is why you need to use mostly base malt in your recipe.
To answer your question about whether or not the specialty grains are
included in calculating your recipe, yes they are, but the extract yields
are different.  

Finally, get a brewing program like Suds or Promash if you have a computer
(how else did the e-mail get to the HBD?) and it will have the info you need
for calculating your recipes.  Also there are books availble that have this
info as well.  I can recommend many, if you want to drop me a private
e-mail.

Have fun, and hope this helped you out.

Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 06:47:16 PDT
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: A Poem

When I last visited the Royal Ontario Museum, I jotted this verse down as it 
struck me not only as possibly one of the earliest examples of beer 
marketing, but also a beautiful description of what it's like to sip a 
particularly good homebrew on a hot day.  This is from a 13th or 14th 
Century Yuan Dynasty lable (beer / wine / fermented beverage, it was 
unclear):

"Branches coated with a thin, thin ice of spring, a pure fragrance imparted 
by the Goddess of the Moon.  It is suddenly, after the long fading of a hot 
summer, like the white dance of an old snow-ladden pine."

(It was amazing to see an example of a rice wine bottle from 1988 with the 
same form as the 13th century bottle - a form that had lasted 7 centuries or 
more - I wonder if swing tops will last that long?)

Cheers!
Drew AKA Dr. Pivo III
- --
Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario
Visit Strange Brew with Drew:
http://fast.to/strangebrew



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:41:14 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Everything you know is wrong

On Mon, 10 Apr 2000 Eric Murray commented on the following:

>I have not been around the HBD that long, and I do find very helpful and
>insightful information from many of you, including Dr. Pivo. I am grateful
>however that I have been brewing a few years prior to finding the HBD. If I
>would have found it when I started, frankly I would have been scared out of
>brewing. Many of us make it sound so much more complicated in a search for
>that perfect brew than it needs to be.

Eric,

Bravo!  Bravo!  Great point.  

I think that many of those who post here have been brewing for a number of
years and may be looking for that "little extra" which makes their beer seem
(at least to them) so much better than the next guy's.  I'm enthusiastic
about brewing (and I'm sure I'm not alone) so I'll discuss a point until
there is no more left to talk about.  I'll read up on it and use what the
new guy would consider "techno-babble" in my discussions.  I've also been
know to beleaguer a minute point.  It's all either confusing, intimidating
or boring to the new guy.

I'll probably be flamed by the homebrew snobs for saying it, but thank God
for Charlie Papazian!  Charlie gave a talk this past Saturday at our club in
Princeton, NJ.  The subject was "The Future of Homebrewing" but I wanted to
know about the past.  I asked Charlie: "Many of us were introduced to
homebrewing with the help of your books, but what did *YOU* have as a guide
when you first started homebrewing."  In short, Charlie seemed to chalk it
up to first hand experience and experimentation after learning the basics
from an old "moonshiner".  Charlie may write much better than he speaks, but
I'm glad I started with his books.  I think if I had to start here, I run
screaming into the mouth of madness ;-)  And while he still uses that
annoying "Relax. Don't worry.  Have a homebrew." line, there is no advice
which I can find to be of more value.


Glen Pannicke
Merck & Co.
Computer Validation Quality Assurance  
email:  glen_pannicke at merck.com 


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:27:37 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Budweiser Engineered Barley

Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu> wrote:

>Anyway, after the MCAB tour of the research pilot
>plant in St. Louis, I took the public tour.  I made a point
>of comparing Bud to Michelob, since my notes indicated they
>both have about 30% rice but differ in the barley portion of
>the grist: 2/3 6-row and 1/3 2-row for Bud, with 80% 2-row and
>20% 6-row for Michelob.

I didn't take notes, but my recollection is that Steve Michalak said that
Bud was 1/3 rice and the balance was 2/3 6-row and 1/3 2-row.  I didn't
hear what the 2-row:6-row balance was with Michelob, but I remember his
saying it had only 20% rice.

There was an awful lot of information that weekend that pertained to my
interest in CAPs, but I couldn't process it all.  Fortunately, Jethro is
sending me the tape from Steve's and George Fix's talk that I missed due to
judging.  Maybe it will be covered there.  I was able to have lunch with
Steve after the talk and pick his brain about CAPish things.  He was very
open and said that A/B has very few trade secrets.  He said that no one
else can afford to do what A/B does.  He really in single minded about A/B
being the best.  Says that Augie Busch won't hear of problems with cost if
it pertains to the qualilty of the beer.

I did find out a secret - Augie occasionally is found in a St. Louis
brewpub (sorry, I didn't recognize the name), whose beers he admires.
Don't know if he wears a fake mustache, nose and glasses like Charlie P
occasionally dons.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:49:35 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Hey Mabel...

I realize that I forgot to make a yeast suggestion Lou Heavner requested.
I have had good luck with the New Ulm (American Lager?) variety even though
it says it is not a pilsner strain, several German strains (Bavarian. I
think Wyeast calls one, but not Munich), and my favorite, YCKC Ayinger (not
in catalog but available).  I also had good luck with the Danish strain,
which emphasizes hops over malt.  It's been years since I used it, but I've
been wanting to try to make a crisper, drier CAP sometime and think this
would be a good choice for that.  My current ones are richer, which I
generally like, maybe more Bohemian/US than German/US, but change can be
interesting.

I think that the A/B strain (Wyeast Pilsner, I think, also labeled St.
Louis) might be a little lacking in character, but that's not based on
personal brewing experience, just prejudice.  The one CAP I had made with
it was very heavy with diacetyl (I guess that's character!), but that could
be avoided with a rest.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:49:17 -0400
From: cbuckley at newsoft.com
Subject: infection? 



Hello  fellow lovers of good beer.........

I hope this is not bad news....   I have two batches of beer in my basement,
both were bottled on the same day.  One is a lager and one is a regular light
brown ale.  I bottled them about a month ago.   Every week I go grab one (or
two) of each to try.  I want to learn how beer conditions in bottles so I like
to sample them frequently to check for improvement.  Two days ago I noticed that
both batches are developing a ring on the neck (insert - expletive).   Clearly
we all know that could be an infection.   I have made seven batches of beer.
this is my first sign of trouble.
     To my question(s)-   If a bottle has a ring on the neck does that mean
there necessarily is an infection?  Could the ring be caused by something else
from the original wort?  Could it be wild yeast or is it bacteria?  Assuming it
is an infection, is it likely to get worse in these bottles?  What's the best
course of action?  Should I just dump them?   I have two batches fermenting
currently and I am concerned that they too might get the dreaded neck ring after
I bottle them.  How worried should I be?  Clearly I need to do a lot of cleaning
and sanitizing.

thanks folks -  -

 - - The careless cleaner ? - -




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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:04:46 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Yeast Hydration, Infusion Mashing and England

My question to Dr. Cone regards yeast rehydration.  All the packages of
yeast contain instructions for rehydration yet they all ferment just fine
without it.  I have to believe that such a procedure may be theoretically
beneficial, however it would seem to be margionally usefull at least on a
homebrew scale. 

I own a home brew shop and a very common phone call is the " My beer is not
fermenting." problem.  I go through the list of potential causes ( plastic
bucket lid leaks, too cold, ect.)  About twice a week the caller will
indicate that he rehydreated the yeast. This is a strong signal that the
yeast has been damaged and will need to be replaced.  I have come to the
conclusion that, since rehydration is not necessary to ferment beer
properly and there is a strong chance that the yeast will be damaged in a
botched rehydration, it is not desirable to recommend such a proceedure. 
Just how important is rehydration and is it worth the risk?



Jeremy Arntz (arntz at surfree.com) asks about infusion mashing.  Check out
"Wanna Mash?" at listermann.com and relax and have a homebrew.

Dr. Pivo (dp at pivo.w.se )  asks about things to do in England.  Try to take
in the Orange Brewery Brewpub at the corner of St. Barnabus and Pimlico.  
My wife limited me to only one while we were there. :(      

Dan Listermann  dan at listermann.com    72723.1707 at compuserve.com


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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 10:38:59 EDT
From: NYBombersFan at aol.com
Subject: RE: Eric Murry - Everything you know is wrong

Regarding Eric Murray and his comments on Everything You Know is Wrong

You took the words right out of my mouth!  Way to go!  As a relatively new 
brewer, I was beginning to feel (after reading HBD) that I was using 
illiterate brewing practices.  The great equalizer, however, is without a 
doubt, THE TASTE TEST.  If your beer tastes great and is appreciated by 
legions of your friends and family then who gives a crap about 3/4 of the 
dissertations on HBD?  

Recently, I have found HBD to lack, shall we say, fizz?  It seems the board 
is dominated by a few pontiffs each trying to out wit the other regarding 
brewing practices and techniques.  While I view their information as 
extremely valuable and thought-provoking, very little of their ramblings 
actually help me brew better beer.  As a working man with a tie, a wife and a 
12 year old, do I really need to know about how many yeast cells it takes to 
make my wort turn into beer?  Hardly and certainly not on this "amateur" 
forum.

Reading this digest lately has reminded me of the words of French poet and 
critic Paul Valery:

"Science means simply the aggregate of all the recipes that are always 
successful.  The rest is literature."

Great literature this Homebrew Digest.  Let us not forget, however, that beer 
is an ancient drink most likely discovered by accident.  It has been enjoyed 
for centuries by royalty as well as plebeians.  It is a simple drink, 
concocted not by man, but by yeast.  To overly complicate the process is 
folly.  Can you imagine if Michelangelo had to worry about the density and 
porosity of the bristles on his brush or the chemical composition of his 
canvas?   The world may have been spared his great masterpieces.

Each brewer is his own artist.  Your "fabulous" beer may get flushed (gasp!) 
down the sink at my house and/or vice-versa.  Who is really to say?  Taste is 
a fickle and subjective thing.  Brewing beer is as simple as using the 
freshest ingredients and  following basic brewing and sanitation techniques.  
Is there REALLY anything else?  Sure there are a myriad variables and 
unknowns, but like Eric stated in his post, I too, quite frankly, find it 
hard to brew lousy beer. 

I hope that a few of you can come back down and join the rest of us 
unsophisticated brewers once in a while.  But until then,

SHOW ME THE BEER!

ALEX


  













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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:20:36 -0600
From: Lance Levsen <l.levsen at printwest.com>
Subject: Infusion Mashing Help

"Jeremy J. Arntz" <arntz at surfree.com> asked about starting to mash.

You can do any size of mash that you want. 19 l (5 US gal) is a nice size. If 
I'm doing smaller batches it's usually for testing purposes.

Mesh Bag. You can use it, but when I first started it turned into a total 
disaster. Make sure the bag is _plenty_ big enough so that the weight of the 
grains doesn't pull the bag into an inverted cone.

It's much easier to use a slotted manifold. Quite simple to build too.

For you sparge, you'll get better results if you could raise the grain temp up 
to 170 before the sparge. I can't do that so I use boiling water to fill the 
vessel, then let it sit for a while, then sparge.

Collect the runoff and boil as per normal for a full hour, you need the extra 
time compared to extract because there is a lot more protein in the runoff 
from a mash. The boil coagulates the protein and with a little wait after the 
boil (or using irish moss) will settle the proteins to the bottom of the boil 
pot.

I don't know about any grain conversion charts on the 'net, but I use the 
Zymurgy Great Grain Issue, Special Issue '95. It works well enough for me.

Yes the total grist includes the specialty grains.

Good Brewing.
- -- 
Lance Levsen, Programmer
Product Innovation,Web Development
PWGroup - S'toon.
477-3166



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:16:46 -0500
From: Susan/Bill Freeman <potsus at bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: soldering connections

The day that my local power company, the makers of my breaker panels,
the manufacturers of the 7 kilns I use, the water heater manufacturers
and the manufacturers of the solid state relays I use begin to solder or
presolder the connections they make, then will I follow suit.  Without
exception these entities and devices all use screw connections.  In
spite of the fact that there should never be enough heat to actually
melt one of these connections, the addition of solder to the end of a
stranded wire prior to either clamping or crimping is a no no.  There IS
enough heat generated to expand the connection and when it cools the
contact is less than tight, resulting in additional heat being generated
in that connection.  This is the reason that the aluminum wire used in
house wiring during the 60s is now suspect where house fires are
concerned.  This is also why there is a special connection grease is
applied to the connections of drop coming into your house power panel
from the pole outside.

Solder is for radios and copper pipe - not for electrical connections
where the load can generate heat.

Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
KP Brewery - home of "the perfesser"
Birmingham, AL



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:47:59 -0400
From: "Michael A Nemier" <Michael.Nemier at ipaper.com>
Subject: Hot-Side Aeration

Gang:

I'd like to throw a big old can of fuel on the (already raging) HSA fire.
I'll spare you the suspense and tell you that I believe this phenomenon to
be both real and harmful, and that I have experimented (perhaps a stretch
of the term) to a great degree on this very topic.

When I first went to all-grain brewing back in 1994, I designed and built a
custom stainless-steel lauter tun that, with my then-simplistic
understanding of brewing techniques/chemistry, represented the pinnacle of
modern wort production technology.  On the plus side, it had the most
beautiful, geometrically perfect, tightly-packed system of (dual-sized for
tighter packing) hand-drilled holes in the "false bottom".  Still
impressive to look at and fully suitable for framing.  As far as negatives,
this evil piece of chromium-fortified crap featured a six-inch free-fall of
the finely dispersed wort (through all of those little holes) into the bulk
of the wort, with all of the obvious bed-compaction and aeration drawbacks
of such an arrangement.  Naturally, I wasn't successfully lautering
anything with a grain bed thicker than a couple of inches.  Instead of
recirculating the wort through the bed (a tough proposition, as the bed
usually took on the texture of concrete), I ran it through successively
finer strainers (again, spraying wort in free air) between vessels until it
was finished-beer-clear after trickling through the last, very fine (maybe
100 mesh) stainless screen.  This entire process slowly produced
brilliantly clear wort, at good yields (typically 32 SG point/lb/gal),
which was aerated/oxidized within (actually, "beyond") an inch of its life.
By way of background, the grist was Corona milled (another bad one), and
step-infusion mashed at 122/150/156/165 degrees F with lots of stirring
(yet another bad one).  I would describe the rest of the brewing process at
that time (other than wort production) to be up-to-par, as I was sanitizing
well, using liquid cultures with starters, and, by and large, using most of
the other techniques that I know to be "right" today.

Needless to say, the beer produced with this setup was poor-tasting due to
very obtrusive levels of oxidation.  The malty flavors were very "dull" and
"papery", even for styles that should have heavy malt-derived flavors
(Scotch ales, barley wines, brews with high proportions of crystal and/or
Munich).  The "dark grain" flavors were particularly "flat", with none of
the pleasant coffee-like roastiness of chocolate malt or roasted barley
making it through to the finished beer.  The beer was "dead" and
"lifeless", to use some more useless, non-descriptive terms.

I had tasted a lot of stale, oxidized commercial beers up to that point,
and knew from the get-go that oxidation was what was kicking my ass.  It
didn't take a genius to identify the lautering equipment as the bad actor,
particularly after reading some articles by Fix implicating HSA in a host
of beer "crimes".  I quickly built a Zapap (with the same sort of
geometrically perfect drilling) and got unhealthily paranoid about HSA
(from every possible silly source).  The quality of beer produced (from, at
the time, the same milling/mashing/everything regimen) was immediately and
immensely improved, every time, to what I would consider
competition-contender quality.  The obvious change, to any taster, was the
elimination of the potent, unpleasant, oxidized character.

Admittedly, this was an unwitting experiment that tested, essentially, the
extremes (at least on the "bad" end) of the HSA spectrum.  There is a
clearly discernible difference in the quality of beer produced by these two
methods, with all other variables held constant.  I can't comment on the
incremental effect of "just a little more than my current level" of HSA,
but I'm right now clinging to the "if a lot is a lot bad, than a little is
a little bad".  I've tangled with the HSA demon, and it whupped my ass.  I
don't want anything to do with it again.  I suppose that the reason why
there haven't been a lot of good experiments done on this one is that it
takes great nerve to perform such peculiar and ultimately fatal torture on
otherwise lovingly-crafted wort.

Understand that I didn't post this epistle to highlight the stupidity that
is my brewing past (and there's plenty more where this came from).  I
simply wanted to weigh in on a current "hot topic" for which I have some
useful insight, and to perhaps steer folks in what I consider to be the
correct direction.

Mike Nemier - Extreme Suburban Cincinnati



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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 13:18:36 -0500
From: "Dittmar, Robert D" <Robert.D.Dittmar at stls.frb.org>
Subject: Repost on Lager Yeasts at Ale Temperatures

I thought I'd repost a question that I had for the collective last week both
because my post may have been misunderstood, and because a recent post by
Paul Shick dealt with a similar question.

I have tried all the ale yeasts that my homebrew supply shop routinely has
in stock.  They are happy to order any others I would like to try, but
instead of going to all that trouble, I was wondering if I could try out
some of the lager yeasts that they have in stock.  As I previously
mentioned, I can only ferment at ale temperatures (around 60-65 deg. F) so
I'd have to pick one carefully.

I wanted to thank Rick and Charley for telling me about good results with
2112 (California lager).  I had thought originally that that would be my
best bet, and I will probably be giving it a try.

I'd also like to thank J, who recommended trying the Koelsch strain, and Lee
for recommending 1056 as a clean yeast.  However, I think I may have been
misunderstood.  I am not looking to make beers with a clean lager-like
profile.  I'm not really interested in making a California Common beer at
this time either.  I know that any lager yeast used at high temperatures
will produce many ale-like esters, phenolics, and possibly a lot of
diacetyl.  I was wondering if any of the Wyeast lager yeasts would
none-the-less produce a good ale, i.e. American pale ale, British bitter,
porter, etc., when used at higher temperatures, or if, in general, the beer
would be so estery, phenolic, and/or buttery as to be undrinkable.

Sorry about the repost, but I saw Paul Shick's post about using 2206 as a
"steam" yeast, and I was hoping that any information sent to him about this
would be posted to the HBD or sent my way.  Any experiences with any of the
lager yeasts other than 2112 at higher temperatures would also be
appreciated.  Again, a clean lager-like flavor at the higher temperatures is
not what I'm looking for, but I would want the beer to be drinkable before I
took the chance.

Thanks again, 

Rob Dittmar
St. Louis, MO


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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:46:29 +1000
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Bob Bratcher Writes

>I have a
>feeling that if more of us actually knew each other in the flesh >(no
>comments from the Baron or Fouch please) there would be allot >less
bickering
>and name calling.

Now I know I have been asked not to comment here, but I think what Bob has
to say is true. Well I know Bob you are not implying that you would like to
see Fouch in the flesh, nobody wants to see that!! Just in his tutu is quite
far enough. But I often think how fascinating it would be to actually meet
some of the characters of the HBD. I guess it is particularly intriguing for
the likes of me, living so far from the American scene, of which most of you
are a part. On the other hand, it would be a shame to give away all the name
calling and actually have to be nice to each other. I think this would spell
the end of the HBD, certainly as we know it.

One person I would be particularly curious to meet is Steve Alexander. I
can't imagine how a person can consume literature at the rate that Steve
apparently does and still find time to brew beer, make wine and vinegar, and
churn out the occasional piece of Japanese poetry, as the Secret Squirrel
once observed.

By contrast I make beer, drink beer (probably too much), fight ferociously
with Jill and hallucinate over naked deceased film stars knocking on my
bedroom window late at night. Probably most everyone else fits somewhere in
between. Except of course Doc Pivo, he's way out on another limb again. And
don't he and Steve just love each other!!

Yes it would certainly make an interesting party if we all did actually get
together. Well I'll rack up the balls and gas up the rice lager, the
Billiard room is just waiting for a ding dong party. But let me know
approximate numbers so I can round up the appropriate number of scantily
dresses women, looks like it's going to be a wild one!


Cheers
Phil
PS Dave Burley can come along too, providing he gets my name right.








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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 11:47:57 -0400
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: RE: Soldering RIMS heater connection

Ron Laborda pointed out that a solder coated wire which is 
crimped or placed in a screw terminal will overheat and melt 
the solder.  This can result in circuit damage, equipment damage 
or even fires.  

You should never solder the wire prior to putting a 
crimp on.  When you crimp a connector it flattens the stranded 
wire and allows for a large surface area to contact the crimp.  
If you solder the wire first you end up with a small contact 
area with high current going through a poor conduction interface
i.e. copper, solder, solder, copper.  

In any condition the connections must be clean and tight.  I still 
recommend mechanical copper to copper connections for the best
long
reliability.   Since many RIMS systems are used and stored in 
garages or out of doors, you should also consider coating the 
wires with silicon grease to stop any corrosion of the copper
wires.  

If you feel you must use crimped lugs make sure you have terminal 
strips and lugs with a rating large enough for the current.  
- -- 
Rod Prather
Indianapolis, Indiana


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---