HOMEBREW Digest #3332 Tue 23 May 2000

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		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com

  use of polyclar (Regan Pallandi)
  Chill Haze (Alan Davies)
  bland beer? (Booth)
  Zymurgy ("Stephen Alexander")
  Dorm Fridges, Freezing malt Extract and grains (Dave Burley)
  Honey Varieties ("Ken Schramm")
  broken dorm fridge (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com>
  Re:Zymurgy-Honey Issue ("Philip J Wilcox")
  Edward's Biter ("Jeff Beinhaur")
  freezing malt ("Stephen Alexander")
  NHC Results ("Gary Glass")
  Re: freezing malt (Some Guy)
  AC as refrigeration unit ("George de Piro")
  Brix, Balling, and Plato (Frank Tutzauer)
  Re: Beechwood (Spencer W Thomas)
  SG at 68F -- new reference temp (Frank Tutzauer)
  Efficiency Percentage (Dryw Blanchard)
  Swimsuit issue (The Holders)
  re: Grain in Freezer ("Alan McKay")
  Question: What is this wonderful smell? (darrell.leavitt)
  w/ apologies to the pool table ladies (Bret Morrow)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 15:03:35 +1000 From: Regan Pallandi <regan at esb.net.au> Subject: use of polyclar hi all - I just have a Q regarding the use of polyclar. My understanding is, that it binds the polyphenols which react with proteins to throw a chill haze. So, if you are producing a lager, when would you use it? My thinking is, that if you add the stuff when the beer is cold (lager brewing temps), then the protein/tannin interaction is already there (ie the chill haze), and the PVPP couldn't bind and do its stuff. Do you add it after letting the beer warm up? So, any hints on how, when and how much to use? thanks, Regan (Deputy Baron) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:12:47 +1000 From: Alan Davies <afjc at cnl.com.au> Subject: Chill Haze Not really a problem. It does not alter the taste. But in my quest for a perfect beer, it would please me if anyone out there has the answer in getting rid of the chill haze. Being in Australia we drink our beer cold, so drinking the beer warmer is not an option. My brewing is by Rims, Alan Davies Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 22:04:16 -0400 From: Booth <kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us> Subject: bland beer? John Adsit writes..... The last issue of HBD contained questions about why American and Australian beers got to be so bad and about the use of various woods in old beer barrels. I would like to offer some thoughts on both. Both opinions are subject to the vagaries of my memory, and that vagary seems to have increased since I became a home brewer. Jim Booth writes..... Miller advertising may have played a role.....but....tastes in general are lightening up all over the world (TV is worldwide ....I know!). My suggestion is that as people drink their drinks colder, the bite of being ice cold and the carbonation bite of drinking out of the bottle substitutes for the bite of hops. It is not uncommon for people to have ice bathes to keep pitchers of beer ice cold while waiting on the table to be poured, and the frosted mug is de rigour in many pubs. Consider how many people dump beer when it approaches 45F in a pub as flat and warm, the curse American soldiers gave to British beers in the 1940's. Yes, the chilies and garlic are more pervasive in the American culinary arts than in days of yore, but strong flavored items like limburger cheese, liverwurst, garlic flavored sliced meats, blood sausage, souse, etc. are less common than in my youth (1930's & 40's). Even the onions today are the sweet mild varieties. Didn't Coke try to lighten up its bite to match Pepsi? Strong flavored drinks like Vernors Ginger Ale, Nehi Orange and Dr. Pepper seem things of the past. Carbonated water is the drink of the future? I personally blame the refrigerator man of Kalamazoo and his industry for keeping things so cold, people can't taste the flavor much less grow to expect it. I'll bet when he goes to Bells for a quaff or to, he doesn't expect frosted mugs, ice water bathes for the flavorful home town brews. (Please don't take offense and quit giving your most helpful advice's tho). Its not just beer either. Ice cream tastes best at melting temps and fruits and cheeses are better warm...but folks want them cold and crisp. So.....The beer commercials are the best things on TV except for West Wing and NYPD Blue.....from the Hamm's bear in the 50's to the AB Horses, dogs, frogs and lizzards.....to say nothing of the winsome lasses who always drink white wine, Zima or bottled water in real life, but frequent the Miller beer commercials nevertheless. Don't rag on them......its the refrigerator man's fault. cheers jim booth, lansing MI just up the road from Kzoo. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:19:22 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: Zymurgy Glen P writes ... >I'd have to agree that a magazine named "Zymurgy" should not be exclusive to >ONE type of fermented beverage - beer. Beverages-shmeverages, with a name like Zymurgy where is the annual fuel ethanol issue ? -S Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:22:47 -0400 From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com> Subject: Dorm Fridges, Freezing malt Extract and grains Brewsters: I got an e-letter from an overseas buddy of mine who reads the HBD and who said to me "What on earth is a dorm fridge?" He's pretty sophisticated and if he asked it, there must be others out there scratching their collective heads. A dorm fridge is a short ( relative to most US ) version of a refrigerator ("fridge") ( maybe 3 to 8 -cu ft - 25 -100 liters in cooling volume) and less than about 3 ft ( < 1 meter) high. This shorthand "dorm fridge" comes from the use of these small fridges in college dormitory ("dorm") rooms to keep things like Coca-Cola ( "pop" in the midwestern US, "soda" in the upper Northwest and "sodapop" here in the South.) and nowadays, I suspect beer, as well as other necessary snacks for those late night trashes. These fridges are cheap and compact and some brewers may have one already which is now in disuse. Some years ( maybe 20) ago I considered doing this expansion for my lagering, using expanded polystyrene (PS) boards and a normal ( maybe 20 + cu.ft - 160 -200 liters) sized fridge, but the price of used fridges in the US is so cheap or free, I purchased/got two and operated at the upper back hall, garage, etc. until I purchased controllers a few years ago. So I have plenty of chilling volume of high thermal efficiency. I would think that in high humidity areas the expanded fridges would have a moisture problem unless several layers of PS board were used. Anyone experience this? Also available in small are the thermoelectric fridges and portable coolers which can operate off the "cigarette lighter", now PC called "accessory connector" in your car, so you can avoid buying ice. I suppose you could lager while you drive! - -------------------------------------------- Freezing malted grains - there seems to be a difference of opinion on whether it is OK to freeze the base malt grains or not. I suppose due to the danger of denaturing the enzyme from freezing or perhaps freeze drying. Has anyone actually done this ( why?) and found it successful? Any effect on conversion efficiency? Wort quality? It is a good idea to keep the specialty malts cold to preserve their freshness, although I have read that more than a week after roasting many lose their real flavor. As far as freezing malt extract goes, the high sugar content ( at least the ones I used) keeps these from molding or fermenting, in my experience, and no reason to freeze them, just chill in the fridge in a covered plastic or glass container - not the can. But do keep them in the fridge to slow down the browning reaction, even unopened, if you keep them for a long time. - -------------------------------------------- Keep on Brewin' Dave Burley Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:42:42 -0400 From: "Ken Schramm" <schramk at resa.net> Subject: Honey Varieties Gus Rappold asks whether anyone would go the the lengths needed to obtain interesting honey. Nowadays, we can obtain specialty malts and hops in any number of varieties and configurations - plugs, leaf, pellets - that were not available when I started brewing. Same with Belgian and European specialty, lager and smoked malts. If you want quality, you'll be willing to go the extra mile to get it. It took a lot of ferreting and legwork to get those products available to the homebrew market. We wanted and got those brewing products because we could taste the difference. I just got back from North Carolina, where I bought a gallon of sourwood honey at a price many would consider dear, but when you spread it across sixty twelve ounce bottles, it's really pretty insignificant per bottle. Nothing close to what you would pay for commercial mead or wine. I've gone to great lengths to obtain other honeys, and I've found it worthwhile every time, because I can taste the difference. Maybe folks aren't interested in info about mead, but that topic was in the rotation when Ray Daniels inherited the mag. I think he did a much better job of expanding the knowledge base than has been done in the past, by providing the kinds of in-depth analysis of honey and mead that the contibutors here have been crying for. If Ray covers the topic as well when he picks a beer style or area of interest, I'm sure folks will be pleased with the results. The difficulty mead enthusuiats face in gathering high quality info on mead making is that there are no commercial interests with multi-hundred million dollar markets and processes to study. No one big is out there looking to save time ($) on mead fermentations, or to improve conversions or extraction yields. As plagiaristic as it may be, most of what we do in this forum (and in most amatuer brewing rags) is kick around knowledge obtained by well financed beer labs who do the bidding of their corporate bankrollers. Until someone comes up with big dough to do that kind of research about mead, we're left to decipher what's out there and pass along quasi-scientific anecdotal data. The question becomes, should we do that, or just leave the landscape totally barren. At least we tried to differentiate between what we knew and what we have found reasonably consistent through our measly efforts. Dan and I talked about discussing the the importance of lactone to free acid ratos in mead fermentations, but Ray pointed out when we got started that we Zymurgy is a magazine, not a book, and we were a few hundred words and a chart long already. The points on the Pfeiffer commemoration are this: there are still more than twice as many AHA members/Zymurgy readers than there are subscribers to this forum. If you read it twice, then great. Moreover, I find it entirely reasonable to document the contributions of someone as pivotal as Bill in a medium more attractive, dignified and permanent for Bill's relatives, friends and students to have as a reminder of his efforts. I get the impression that there are some folks who want to blast away (Joe Kish: Ray was correcting bad info from previous isues, not printing new erroneous bad recipes. Do we not give him any credit?). I don't tear up Fly Tyer magazine because they do an issue on Saltwater patterns when I am a midwest trout fisherman. Beyond that, when you get to the advanced levels of a hobby, you have to live with the fact that much of what is in the rag may be below you (maybe it's time to start writing, eh?), and that there aren't going to be enough readers at your level to support an entire mag which smacks you in the forehead every issue. One could say put up or shut up, like Ray Daniels and Louis Bonham and others have done, but that might be incendiary, mightn't it? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:55:13 -0400 From: "Sieben, Richard (VS Central)" <SIER1 at Aerial1.com> Subject: broken dorm fridge This would really be a question for the fridge guy, but anyone with knowledge is welcome to answer. I have a dorm fridge that has the evaporator coil punctured by a screwdriver. My question is this worth fixing or would it be cheaper to just toss it out and buy a new one? I ask in this forum because I am sure this has happened to other folks at some point or other. TIA Rich Sieben Island Lake, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 09:55:33 -0400 From: "Philip J Wilcox" <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com> Subject: Re:Zymurgy-Honey Issue Gus, They did that. The single most hated, cried and waste of space issue was the one with Swimsuit Model Kathy Ireland holding a carboy on the beach. I believe it is the only one NOT still in my collection. FWIW, I loved the honey issue. And yes I am a little biased, but so what, its an open forum and on I shall rant. Since I am in the communications side of the business I feel confident about speaking about technical parts of production. and ... Technically, speaking it is the best issue they've put out in a long time. There were no reversed picture's, glaring typo's or pictures of wasp's nests... The content was beefed up considerably from issues past. And the layout was much more friendly for reading vs. looking at adds. Yes, like Gus I would like a thicker Magazine too, I even prefer the Perfect Bound to the current Saddlestitch binding. But more pages cost more money, and Saddlestitching will always be cheaper. More money out means more money in -- How much more are you willing to pay for this magazine? How much more Advertising are you willing to read around? How many more subscribers are you going to recruit??? These are the pressures that that killed BT, and still hang heavily around Zymurgy's neck. I think Ray is doing a great job and I can't wait for more! If you want a say in what appears in Zymurgy, and how the AHA is run, now is the best time you have for making your voice heard. Become a member. Vote! Attend the National Conference and meet the Board of Advisors. You may never have such a good opportunity to help change our organization. They are looking to change. And they are looking at us to help them change. I'll be there--Will you? Phil Wilcox Poison Frog Home Brewer Warden-Prison City Brewers In Jackson, MI 32 Mi. West of Jeff Renner AABG, AHA, BJCP, HBD, MCAB, ETC., ad nausium... See our languishing and outdated website at http://hbd.org/prisoner Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:05:35 -0400 From: "Jeff Beinhaur" <beinhaur at email.msn.com> Subject: Edward's Biter Edward Doernberg wrote about Beer toxicity, Australian breweries and the art or since in the last HBD. I beleve he may hav had one to many emu biters when he wote dat. jus mi toe senc...... Jeff Beinhaur, Camp Hill, PA Home of the "Award Winning" Yellow Breeches Brewery Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 10:09:06 -0400 From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> Subject: freezing malt I wouldn't freeze malt. Shelf life of grains is negatively affected when moisture level is too high or too low (<3%) with about 6% being optimal for wheat, and long term freezing is a recipe for dehydration. ["Shelf Life Dating of Food", T.B.Labuza, Food&Nutrition Press, 1982]. I would also be concerned about flavor consequence from ruptured cells of the germ and acrospire, tho' as JeffR notes the moisture level may be too low for this to occur. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 08:18:09 -0600 From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org> Subject: NHC Results Brewers & Competitors, If you haven't seen the results of the first round of the AHA National Homebrew Competition, you can check them out at: http://www.beertown.org/AHA/NHC/aha2000.htm. Congratulations winners! All score sheets and instructions to advancers will be sent out this week. Thanks to everyone who entered. And a special thanks to the Site Directors, Judge Coordinators, and judges, without whom we would not be able to put on this great event. I hope to see you all at the National Homebrewers Conference in Livonia, MI June 22-24 where final judging and the awards ceremony will be taking place. It's shaping up to be a great time. For more info on the conference see: http://hbd.org/miy2k/. Cheers! Gary - ------------------------- Gary Glass, Administrator American Homebrewers Association 736 Pearl Street PO Box 1679 Boulder, CO 80306-1679 U.S.A. Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121 Fax: (303) 447-2825 Email: gary at aob.org Web: http://www.beertown.org Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:21:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org> Subject: Re: freezing malt Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager... Stephen Alexander writes: > I wouldn't freeze malt. Shelf life of grains is negatively affected when > moisture level is too high or too low (<3%) with about 6% being optimal for > wheat, and long term freezing is a recipe for dehydration. ["Shelf Life > Dating of Food", T.B.Labuza, Food&Nutrition Press, 1982]. I would also be > concerned about flavor consequence from ruptured cells of the germ and > acrospire, tho' as JeffR notes the moisture level may be too low for this to > occur. I had heard that malt shouldn't be frozen for similar reasons. As it was put to me, even if the malt isn't damaged by loss of moisture in freezing, it likely will pick moisture up from condensation during the thaw. Not sure how much of a problem it would be if you go from freezer to mill. Never really paid it no mind. Anecdotally, I store my grains in plastic garbage cans within my Michigan garage. They freeze (Ja! You betcha!) in the winter, and I've never noticed them go from "steely to mealy", nor any detriment to the yield or quality of the resulting wort - in terms of those factors I can readily detect. No lab analysis has been performed to back up my observations... - -- - See ya! Pat Babcock in SE Michigan pbabcock at hbd.com Home Brew Digest Janitor janitor@hbd.org HBD Web Site http://hbd.org The Home Brew Page http://hbd.org/pbabcock "Just a cyber-shadow of his former brewing self..." Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 12:42:48 -0400 From: "George de Piro" <gdepiro at mindspring.com> Subject: AC as refrigeration unit Hi all, Doug asks if anybody has actual experience using an air conditioner to refrigerate beer. I have done this, and wrote about it in Brewing Techniques. The article was on line, so if their website still exists you can find it there (I think it was Dec. of 1998). In short, it does work, but is pretty expensive to run (if you can make a better door than I did, it will probably run more efficiently). The only trick to the project is gently bending the air conditioner's thermoprobe around to the outside of the enclosure so that a separate temperature controller can be used to cycle the AC on and off. The AC's temp controller will only allow you to get the temperature down to about 58F. The box I built holds 10 corny kegs and uses the smallest AC I could find. I could keep the beers at 38-42F, depending on ambient temperatures. Condensation was a very big problem. Make sure there is a way to drain water out of the thing or the bottom will rot (assuming you are using wood). Have fun! George de Piro C.H. Evans Brewing Company at the Albany Pump Station (518)447-9000 http://evansale.com Malted Barley Appreciation Society Homebrew Club http://hbd.org/mbas Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:34:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu> Subject: Brix, Balling, and Plato For our anniversary, my dear wife bought me a refractometer for taking gravities, so I need the low down on Brix, Balling, and Plato. My homebrew books are fairly sketchy on the topic. 1. What the heck are these? The refractometer reads degrees Brix, which the literature that came with the instrument defines as the concentration of sugar. The temperature adjustment chart uses units of g/100G. The second edition of Noonan's lager book defines Balling and Plato similarly. He in fact says that Brix, Balling, and Plato are "interchangeable" but that Plato's computations were more accurate than Balling's. So what *are* the differences amongst these three measures? If my refractometer reads, say, 10.2 Brix, can I just treat it as 10.2 Plato? 2. Converting to specific gravity. I understand that specific gravity is the density compared to water, whereas Brix/Balling/Plato is the percentage of sugar, and that two liquids of similar density might differ in their sugar content. Comparing, oh, motor oil to a wort of the same specific gravity would nonetheless yield different percents of sugar. But...for homebrewing gravities and compositions it's nice to have a conversion. In the past, when people have given me Plato numbers, I've used the rule of thumb "multiply by four"--and in the Balling-SG chart in Noonan Edition 1 and the Plato-SG chart in Noonan Edition 2, it's amazing how closely that works. Can I just take my Brix reading and multiply by four to get SG? 3. Pronunciation. Is it pronounced BREE, as in Grand Prix, or is it BRICKS as in, well, bricks? Thanks! - --frank Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:35:49 -0400 From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Re: Beechwood As the perpetrator of the Wahl & Henius scans, and one who lives about 6 miles from Jeff, I can assure you that he is aware of and uses that resource. What you get when you use the web site is GIF images that are specifically designed for on-screen viewing. I have added a link to a set of PDF files that are better for printing (one file per chapter). These files are quite large, since they incorporate 600 dot-per-inch page image scans. The size of each file is listed next to the download link. =Spencer Thomas in Ann Arbor, MI (spencer at umich.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:37:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu> Subject: SG at 68F -- new reference temp As I've been investigating Brix, Balling, and Plato (see my refractometer questions), I've read Noonan's appendices in a little more detail and I've got some questions about this new standard of 68F temps for specific gravity. It makes sense that 68F rather than 60F should be used because 68F corresponds to a nice even 20C. Unfortunately, I'm seriously confused by his discussion of the matter. I don't know if this is a change in instrumentation (implied by his use of the term "calibration") or a simple change in reference temp. Here's what I mean: Situation 1. Let's say I've got two hydrometers, an old one calibrated to 60F and a new one calibrated to 68F. I've just brewed a wort, the temp of which is exactly 60F. I put the old hydrometer in it, and it reads 1.040. Under the old system, I would have written in my log book, "OG = 1.040." Ok, good. Now I warm the wort to exactly 68F. My old hydrometer of course now reads something different. But if I put the new hydrometer in the 68F wort, it reads 1.040, so again, I write in my log "OG = 1.040." This situation does not make sense to me because if 1.040 means "1.040 times the density of water at 60F" then the wort would also be "1.040 times the density of water at 68F" -- and of course the wort can't be both. Situation 2. I've only got one hydrometer. In the old days, I would have taken a sample of wort at 60F and recorded "0G = 1.040" in my log book. Under the new system, I use the same hydrometer but upon reading the value at 68F I now record "OG = 1.039." In the old days, I would have adjusted that by adding 1; in the new days I leave it as is. Situation 1 is an instance of *calibration* -- the instrument is calibrated to give a certain reading at a certain temp. Situation 2 is just a question of what reference temp we use. Situation 2 seems more justifiable to me, but I wonder.... because using the conversion equations in Noonan's appendix, the only difference in normal gravity worts between SG68 and SG60 is in the ten thousandths place. For example, a 1.040 SG60 wort is, using the conversion equations, 1.0398292, which, at a three decimal place precision used by most brewers, rounds to 1.040. It is not until a gravity of 1.113 that the conversion equations produce a difference. 1.113 SG60 is equivalent to 1.1124993 SG68, or 1.112 rounded off. This argues against Situation 2 as being the correct interpretation. So what's the real scoop? Of course, all the home brewers I know will be using 60F for the foreseeable future! - --frank Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 13:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Dryw Blanchard <dryw9680 at yahoo.com> Subject: Efficiency Percentage Hi all, I have just finished my second all grain batch and both have had an extraction efficiency of about 57%. I tried sparging longer and a little hotter on the second batch (dead on 170F for 90 minutes). Can anyone give me any suggestions for boosting my efficiency rates. Private e-mails are fine. Thanks. Dryw Blanchard Chicken Sh*t Homebrew __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 14:04:19 -0700 From: The Holders <zymie at sprynet.com> Subject: Swimsuit issue Bill says: >I can see it now - 'Celis Blonde'! ; ) NO doubt there would be a rebuttal saying that privy information from Pierre Celis indicates they used the wrong hair coloring. ;) Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 17:05:45 -0400 From: "Alan McKay" <amckay at ottawa.com> Subject: re: Grain in Freezer Yesterday I brewed with grain that was frozen in my shed all winter long (no heat out there, minus 30, you get the picture) and the brew is looking great so far. Everything went as normal as could be expected. I'll keep you posted as things progress ... cheers, -Alan - -- "I can't think of anything witty to say, so please stay tuned ..." - Me http://www.bodensatz.com/ What's a Bodensatz? http://www.bodensatz.com/bodensatz.html Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 18:02:51 -0400 (EDT) From: darrell.leavitt at plattsburgh.edu Subject: Question: What is this wonderful smell? Yesterday I brewed a "Brown Abbey Ale" (3lb Torrified Barley, 4 lb Halcyon, 1 lb Paul's Dark Crystal, 1 lb Belgian Bisuit, 1 cup Special B), and I pitched some slurry from a previous batch that contained BOTH rehydrated Champaign yeast as well as Trappist Ale yeast [wlp500 Whitelabs]....well, it has taken off, and the smell is nothing short of wonderful! Slightly sweet...even floral in character. Is this the Champagne yeast? And, is it advisable to re-pitch dry yeast? The reason the dry yeast was there in the previous batch to begin with was that the Trappist wasn't taking off....after 2 days, and I rehydrated it and pitched just to be safe... I have never experienced such a good smell oming from yeast.... ..Darrell Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 00:32:59 -0400 From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net> Subject: w/ apologies to the pool table ladies Me, a few HBD's ago >that the pool table ladies are all over 90...stones and >years! Jeff Renner---That would explain why they are leaning precipitously, but considering that 90 stones is 1260 lbs, or 573 kilos (did I get these conversions right, Regan?), I don't think it's possible. Talk about weird units, though. Thanks Jeff, I owe an tremendous apology to the pool table ladies. I'm so used to small measurements such microns and not large things. I meant to say 90 kilograms and 90 score old ;-) Bret Morrow, sending lots of support beams for a pool table in ".au" Return to table of contents
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