---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Building Backyard Bathyspheres In Burradoo ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Spanish Moss (happydog)
  Alpha and Beta Amylase and Reverse Mash? (Brad Miller)
  re: spamish noss ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  The words, "Homebrew" and "Yobbo" (Debi Lake)
  Big-flavored mild (Breweler)
  Uh, I got a problem... ("Joe O'Meara")
  Quick-Drafting Bottles? ("Steven J. Owens")
  Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes ("Warren White")
  Bathyspheres and wastefull ozzie posts (David Lamotte)
  Malt Liquor (Rod Prather)
  Malt Liquor ("mike megown")
  re: haze, sorbate ("Nathaniel P. Lansing")
  dry hopping with US hallertauer? (ensmingr)
  Re: Maize malting (Jeff Renner)
  more gelatinization (Marc Sedam)
  Sorbate usage summary ("Paul Kensler")
  A post from a Bruce-come-lately ("Dave Edwards")
  Bitter recipes (Tidmarsh Major)
  Beer glasses and Rennerian posts . . . ("Brett A. Spivy")
  Brewing, drinking, and drunkedness ("Alan Meeker")
  Aussie Posts (being non beer related). ("Leland Heaton")
  Converting Decoction Recipies to Infustion Mashing ("Jay Wirsig")
  Can't we all just get along? ("John Todd Larson")
  RE: An interesting Question (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Intoxication ("Scott Church")
  re: homebrewing and drunkenness ("Brian Lundeen")
  Rainwater (Randy Ricchi)


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 14:06:48 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Building Backyard Bathyspheres In Burradoo

With respect to Phil's beatutifully alliterated subject line...

>Let's say you have gassed your beer up at 30psi, rather overdone to be
sure.
>Sitting in our bathysphere, Jill struggles on the external billows until
Wes
>and I (sitting comfortably in our smoking jackets) are enjoying an
>atmosphere at 30psi.
>What has happened to our beer?

It should still be sitting in your keg a 30 psi waiting for you to drink it.
It should not be flat because your CO2 regulator & gague measure the
pressure with respect to normal atmospheric pressure (which we'll assume to
be 1 ATM = 15 psi).  Now I don't know what your hypothetical bathyshpere is
measuring: pressure with respect to 1 ATM or to vacuum?  If it's calibrated
to a vacuum, 30 psi on the bathy gague would really be 15 psi above
atmospheric, thereby giving you a net of 15 psi on your beer.  So your beer
should be nicely carbonated when you go to dispense it.  If it's calibrated
with respect to normal atmospheric (1 ATM) , sorry, your beer will be at the
same pressure as the bathy and you'll need gravity or a straw to help
dispense your flat beer.

>Conversely, Wes and I enter the chamber with our CO2 regulator carefully
set
>at 15psi. In more predictable fashion, Jill pulls the big lever which
>immediately evacuates all atmosphere from the bathysphere 

>"what is now the reading on the CO2 regulator"?

Well, you ask a loaded question...  It should still read about 15 psi since
the CO2 gague should be calibrated to normal atmospheric pressure, plus you
gave a rigid wall container (also assuming an SS corny keg, here) which
won't expand under the vacuum to equalize the prerssures.  So your beer will
still be 15 psi above atmospheric, which equals 30 psi above vacuum.  Since
the bathy is at vacuum (15 psi below atmospheric) that gives you a net delta
of 30 psi.  Alas, your last beer and it will be all head!  Unless you vent a
little CO2...

Moral of the story:  Don't drink beer in a bathysphere with Jill at the
pressure controls -  and most especially if Phil is wearing her new dress!
Please note: This is just based on my rudimentary knowledge of how pressure
gagues & spring/diaphragm regulators work.  I worked for a welding supply
company for a couple of years, but we were not in the routine of doing
undersea welding or providing O2 gauges to airlines ;-)  Someone's gonna
hate paging down on these threads!


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 18:04:17 GMT
From: happydog at nations.net
Subject: Spanish Moss

>Del Lansing suggests using more Spanish Moss in his brews to reduce the
>haze. Really! Maybe I should just go out and pull some off the trees south
>of here!  {8^)
>
>Of course, Irish Moss, normally used in Britsh ales, isn't moss but
>seaweed.

What !??
I have two LARGE live oaks right in front of my shop covered with
spanish Moss and at all of my brew party's under these oaks I have
done everything I could to keep the spanish moss out of the wort . You
mean to tell me that all this time I could have just let it blow into
the wort and had much clearer beer because of it. DAMM..I leaving the
lid off my boils from now on ;-)
Humm, Spanish Moss IPA has a ring to it;-)




Wil Kolb
Happy Dog Brewing Supplies
401 W.Coleman Blvd
Mt Pleasant SC 29464
843-971-0805
Fax 843-971-3084
1-800-528-9391
happydog at nations.net
www.maltydog.com


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 13:03:50 -0800
From: Brad Miller <millerb at targen.com>
Subject: Alpha and Beta Amylase and Reverse Mash?

	First let me say Big Up's to Dave Burley and John Palmer for 
trying to tackle the questions that I posed a few digests ago.  I 
still think that the questions (or their spirit) has not yet been 
addressed.  Let me try to rephrase them a little better.

	As Dave said "Brad, from your question, I assume you don't 
understand that by-in-large
the beta breaks down the products of the alpha amylase's action on starch.
These are sequential actions. Beta, therefore, produces glucose from the
shorter chain carbohydrates  produced by the alpha acting on the starch."

	Well Dave I did in fact know this and was the basis of my 
question.  Since the optimal range for Beta is 131-150 and and Alpha 
is 154-162 and Beta works off of Alpha's products it seems that this 
reaction is not very efficient in a middle temp range, say 152.  If 
you were mashing to get a more fermentable wort at say 149 or lower 
then you would have limited Alpha activity and since the products of 
an Alpha's reaction is the substrate for the Beta's reaction the it 
would be the limiting factor.  So.... Wouldn't it make more sense if 
you  where trying to make a more fermentable wort to first mash at a 
temp that would favor the activity of Alpha Amylase and then lower 
the temp to reach the level of fermentability with Beta Amylase? 
(but not to high a temp to denature the Beta)  In affect you could do 
a 155-145 or a 155-145-160 to get maximum activity and better 
control.  Who knows, it might even be faster to use the optimal 
ranges for each enzyme than to shoot for the middle and go slower.

	I hope this makes more sense now.  Let me reiterate:  How is 
it that a lower temp rest (145) can be too useful if the substrates 
for it are from a reaction of a higher temp?  (Yes I know that there 
is still some activity at lower temps)

Thanks once again,

Brad


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 21:07:45 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: spamish noss


Daves points out I said,
>>suggests using more Spanish Moss<<
 Did I type that? was probably listening to Zydeco or Beau Soleil at the
time.
Oops.
>> that tannins form hazy complexes with
metal ions like iron, etc. This may also be a factor in your discussion.
Don't know if the heating would improve by precipitating these hazes,<<
  Would the precipitating tannins improve heating by causing more effective
convection in the wort? 

Ahh, the world of typos ;-)
     Del Lansing


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:39:27 -0400
From: Debi Lake <debiL at sunnyorlando.com>
Subject: The words, "Homebrew" and "Yobbo"

Graham Sanders wrote:
>>"I always have a quite shudder everytime I hear the term 'homebrew'.
>>Even people who make wine dont say they home-wine.  The term homebrew
>>will always have that yobbo element attached to it."

Graham provded me a valuable insight regarding the use of the term
"homebrew"  To the un-schooled, the word sounds terrible.  The marketing
department needs to work on it.  Remember that old Saturday Night Live
bit of that played off the Smuckers jelly commercials and went of to say
"with a name like "Monkey Vomit", it has to be good?"  No wonder the
industry is in a downturn.

Pat Babcock made an interesting point regarding the stereotype of beer
drinkers.  Personally, I have a high-brow, condescending, snobby,
anti-"yobbo" (I don't know what it means - but I really like that word)
approach to beer and I get annoyed at people's assumption that because I
brew,  I drink a lot.

However, the stereotype of guzzling beer drinkers is here to stay due to
a fundamental reason that is taught in economics 101 -- low barriers to
entry.  Beer is the cheap swill of the masses (and marketed as such) and
I seriously doubt that anyone can change it.  If wine was as cheap as
Budweiser and marketed as such, it would have an image problem too.
Don Lake

To quote Homer...."To alcohol! The cause of - and solution to - all of
life's problems!"
                                            (Simpson - not the classic
Greek writer)




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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:56:02 EDT
From: Breweler at aol.com
Subject: Big-flavored mild

Stephen Ross asked for a recipe for a flavorful mild.  I designed the 
following recipe after reading Wheeler and Protz's book, Brew Your Own 
British Real Ale.  I determined which ingredients (and amounts) were common 
to all recipes, and which were optional, and devised the following (which 
tastes pretty darn good IMHO):

Mark's Mild (5 gallon all-grain)
5 lb. British pale ale malt
7 oz. crystal malt
3 oz. chocolate malt
2 oz. black malt
1 oz. roasted unmalted barley
3 oz Belgian special B malt
4 oz. wheat flour (torrified wheat would be better)
1 oz. Challenger hops (UK 8.2%)  Boil 90 min.
1/4 oz. Fuggle hops (UK 5.1%)  Boil 90 min.
3/4 oz. Fuggle hops (UK 5.1%)  Boil 15 min.
1 t Irish moss  Boil 15 min.
Wyeast #1098 British Ale

Mash in 3 gal. of 152 degree H2O for 90 min.
Sparge with 4 gal. 170 degree H2O
Boil for 90 min.

O. G. 1.033
F. G. 1.005

This was my first attempt at a mild; my second all-grain beer.  It is easy to 
drink, yet packed with flavor.  The 1098 yeast lends a fruitiness (veddy, 
veddy British).  A crisper version could be made using 1028 or 1056.

Hope this helps.  Enjoy.

Mark Videan
Breweler at aol.com



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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joe O'Meara" <drumthumper_2000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Uh, I got a problem...

Here's a good question for the brewing collective:  I
need to drop a bug bomb in what is currently my
fermentation room (although my roommate insists on
calling it the "living" room for some odd reason). 
Currently, all that is fermenting (well actually,
aging) is this year's 6 gallon batch of mead.  I've
got airlocks (dancing hats) installed, and am
wondering if I'm going to cause any big problems with
my mead?  Private emails ok, but if you wish to make a
fool of me (Yates, Pivo, et al), BY ALL MEANS DO!  

TIA,

Joe O'Meara
resident Mad Dwarf
Mad Dwarf Brewery, Billings MT
ICQ #60722006

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites.
http://invites.yahoo.com/


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Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 23:02:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Steven J. Owens" <puff at netcom.com>
Subject: Quick-Drafting Bottles?

Folks,

     For the first time in a long time I'm bottling instead of
kegging, because I want to give a couple cases of homebrew to a friend
who's going on a trip, to be given out as gifts.  However, this is
complicated by two little details.  

     One, the trip is happening seven days from now (six by the time
this gets posted and I receive replies :-).  As I recall  natrual
carbonating in bottles takes about two weeks to mature.  

     Two, the beer is currently in a ten gallon keg which my brother
quick-drafted with CO2, and apparently he over-carbonated it.  So I'm
faced with the predicament of trying to uncarbonate it so I can
transfer it to bottles and then try to recarbonate it.

     I guess I'm asking, is there any way to 

a) transfer the beer from keg to bottles without giving it a chance to
foam up, and ideally preserve some of the carbonation, or

b) decarbonate the beer quickly (other than by repeatedly venting CO2,
shaking it up, venting more, waiting for the mix to stabilize, etc?) and

c) speed the natural carbonation process?

     I know, I know, it's a messed up situation, but I thought I'd
bounce it off the list and see if anybody knew of any quick & dirtty
tricks to try.

Steven J. Owens
puff at netcom.com

 


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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 18:52:01 EST
From: "Warren White" <warrenlw63 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Wyeast 3522 Belgian Ardennes

Wotcher HBDrs

As a long time HBD lurker I've taken the plunge and decided
I can no longer sit on the sidelines.

I'm very surprised how many of my fellow-countrymen from the
arse-end of the world use this service...

But unlike some of them I don't intend to waste bandwith
with endless diatribe and useless platitudes!
(I don't have the time anyway).

Anyway back to the real reason for this post. I recently
purchased from my brewing supplier a Wyeast XLarge
Smack Pack (3522 Belgian Ardennes).

I was wondering if anybody out there has used this
yeast yet, as I intend to try it in a Trippel....

If so can I get some info. on its characteristics etc.
and is it suitable for a Trippel.

Any help is good help - thanks in advance.

Warren L. White Melbourne, Australia
No! nowhere near Sydney!

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 20:22:24 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Bathyspheres and wastefull ozzie posts

In a single post Jeff Renner has unwittingly unified and solved the two
most pressing issues facing the HBD today ....

> As far as that goes, your body fluids, being at 15
> psi, would also boil at 0 psi ambient, and you would probably explode like
> a hot dog in a microwave.
> 

> the digest has almost never been at its 45K limit this summer, 
> so Aussie nonsense hasn't delayed any important botulism or dui or 
> aluminum posts.  It will all have to end if/when traffic resumes


You see Jim, the volume of posts from down under only ever expand to fill
the available space - much like Phil & Wes at zero pressure in the
Bathysphere.

Someone has to keep you amused and informed during the off season.

BTW, Phil, if you really are out of Beer, I would be happy to pop a few
litres of my latest (the first out of my new 80 litre ball lock fermenter)
for your 'evaluation'.


David Lamotte
Brewing without regard to HBD Bandwidth
In Newcastle N.S.W. Australia


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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 07:08:00 -0300
From: Rod Prather <rodpr at iquest.net>
Subject: Malt Liquor

I believe (not positive) that malt liquor is a derivation of one 
of the alternative names used by German non-beer makers.  

Since beer by Reinheitsgebot can only contain water, hops, malted barley
and yeast, classifications are given for other classes of "beer".  
In Germany, Malt liquor is usually  classified as beers using other grains 
(unmalted) and/or sugar adjunts with barley malt as a basis. These beers 
are typically quite high in alcohol content but the ingredients are what 
makes the rule.  Weiss is another of these altenative names that is a 
result of the beer purity law of 1512.  Since malted wheat is used, beer 
was not an acceptable name.  

In the US, malt liquor is used to define beer above a certain alcolol 
percentage.  Typically this percentage is 8.2% or 9.2%.  Likewise, some 
states used to require beverages containing between 6.2 and 9.2 to be 
labeled as "ales".  I prefer the german classification myself.

- -- 
Rod Prather, PooterDuude
Indianapolis, Indiana


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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:12:10 EDT
From: "mike megown" <megownm at hotmail.com>
Subject: Malt Liquor

From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject:   Re: Malt Liquor???

My neighbor and I was talking about "Malt Liquor" over the weekend.  I 
beleive that it used to be a category in the old BJCP style guidelines; 
however, in the new one it looks like it has been removed.  Does anyone know 
why AHA/BJCP removed it?
  We were talking about what sort of grain bill would compose this style 
i.e. schlitz malt liquor "Bull", or Old English 800, or any style like that.
  Ideas?

   Cheers!
      Mike Megown

"Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net> of Tampa, FL asks about malt liquor:
>At first guess, I would have thought that it was any fermented alcoholic
>beverage that was produced (largely or partially) from a "malted grain".

Brewers sometimes do use it to mean just that, but some state liquor laws
use the term to refer to strong beers, typically over 6% abv or so.  While
some fine beers fall into this category, the typical mega-brewery's malt
liquor will be a cheap, strong, high sugar adjunct/low malt, low hops beer
sold in 40 oz. containers and marketed in what I consider to be a socially
irresponsible manner, despite their "Enjoy our product responsibly" slogans.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943.


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:58:06 -0400
From: "Nathaniel P. Lansing" <delbrew at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: haze, sorbate

Steve said, >>So adding a little tannin to a protein sol'n may cause haze
and
adding a bit more may precipitate that same haze.  <<
   That was pretty much what I was alluding to in one of the earlier posts;
that to inadvertently find that % that would bring out the haze but not
flocculate was the 'fine line' I mentioned.
   I had meant to say Irish Moss, not Spanish Moss.
- ------------------------
On the refermentation after the use of sorbate; it could be that the
Sorbistat was out and out bad. If exposed to sunlight it breaks down
rather quickly, on the order of 6 months. If the store keeps it on the
shelf and not in the cooler this could be the problem. In addition if not
used with metabisulphite the malic acid can go through a
malo-lactic fermentation in the bottle; in the presence of sorbate
a distinctively gross geranium smell/flavor results. If no such smell
happened then the sorbate was probably bad.

N.P. Lansing


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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 09:19:34 -0500
From: ensmingr at twcny.rr.com
Subject: dry hopping with US hallertauer?

I have some U.S. hallertauer (it is labeled "U.S.
Hallertau", but I think the correct terminology is "U.S.
hallertauer", right?) and want to use it for dry hopping.
What kind of aromatic character should I expect?

Just about all the different hop varieties that I have
smelled out of the bag smell pretty good to me. Of course,
that doesn't mean that they will make my beer smell good
when added as dry hops. For example, some people have
claimed that Hallertau hallertauer gives beer a "soapy"
aroma. Anyone have experience dry hopping with U.S.
hallertauer?

TIA for your feedback.

Cheerio!
Peter A. Ensminger
Syracuse, NY
ensmingr at twcny.rr.com



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:06:35 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Maize malting 

"Keith Menefy" <kmenefy at ihug.co.nz> writes:

>Just a short report on my maize malting trial.

This is certainly of interest to me, even if only academic.  Thanks for
posting it.

>2. It was a feed maize, almost certainly a hybrid crop. I don't know if this
>would be a reason or not. I wanted to keep away from a commercial seed
>source.

I think hybrid maize is often sterile.  Why not use seed maize, as long as
it isn't treated with pink mercuric fungicide?  Or find someone who is
growing old fashioned open pollinated maize.

>There was a huge amount of hot break. Like a big oil slick!!

I think of hot break as normally referring to coagulated proteins.  Was
this like that, or was it actually oil?  There certainly could have been a
fair amount of corn (maize) oil.  I think I'd remove it too.

You didn't say what percentage of maize you used.  I assume something like 25%?

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:03:45 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: more gelatinization

Dave B. writes...

"Remember that Bud does a cereal mash to gelatinize the
adjuncts and like
the Germans doing a decoction has starch available at a low
( below 149F)
temperature ( their glucose hold) from the boiling of the
malt. My point
is, if the starch is available  (gelatinized)  it can be
converted at a
lower temperature than 149F. As this was one of my points,
we agree.

I agree starch gelatinization is not a hard fast number, but
I recall
barley starch is most often given as 149F. Now maybe this is
not the starch
in the malt, although I have always assumed so. Amylopectin
and amylose
undoubtedly have different gelatinization temperatures."


Dave is pretty well spot on here but it requires a bit o'
clarification.  Gelatinization does not occur all at once,
it's true.  Starch being loosely crystalline in the granule
it has a melting profile just like most crystalline
structures.  There is a large peak, the center of which is
149F.  So there's melting before and melting after.  Also,
I've mentioned before here that during the swelling (not
melting) of the starch granule that small chain amylose is
"leached" out of the granule and available for enzymic
attack.  Amylose and amylopectin, without any third-order
structure, will not have melting temperatures associated
with them.  They will simply be in solution.

One point Dave hit on that needs to be clarified, and one
that I cannot, is that there's a difference between "barley
starch" and "malted barley starch".  149F might be correct
for barley starch but is probably high for malted barley
starch.  Because the malting process helps make the starch
granule more fragile I'm certain the melting point will be
lower.  Can any of the librarians find the number for malted
barley?

Cheers!
marc

- --
Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC  27599-4105

919.966.3929  (phone)
919.962.0646  (fax)
http://www.research.unc.edu/otd




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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:37:20 -0400
From: "Paul Kensler" <paul.kensler at attglobal.net>
Subject: Sorbate usage summary

For anyone else that is interested, here is the summary of advice I received
on sorbate usage.  Thanks to everyone who replied!

1. Make sure fermentation is stopped before sorbating.  Once fermentation
has stopped, sorbate can prevent new fermentation, but it can't stop
fermentation.
2. Remove as much yeast as possible via natural settling and racking, or
filtration.
3. Use 1/2 tsp per gallon.  Don't boil the sorbate.  Stir the sorbate into
some sanitized water or a small portion of the beverage to dissolve it
before adding it to the whole batch.
4. Use sorbate in conjunction with sulfites.

As far as my particular beverages in question go, I have put the keg of
cider into my beer fridge.  The cold temperatures seem to have put a stop to
the fermentation and I am able to dispense it just fine (using just its own
pressure to push it out - I don't have it hooked up to any CO2).  The mead?
Well, I really wanted a still mead so I will let it ferment out (again),
resweeten as needed, and resorbate properly.


Thanks again,
Paul Kensler
Lansing, MI



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Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:39:03 +0930
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: A post from a Bruce-come-lately

| Get a life mate. Why is it so bad that a few blokes have a few shits and
| giggles in amongst all of the other stuff? The HBD goes further than just
| 'let's talk about homebrew' to more of a chat between people who have a
| mutually strong interest in brewing. I personnally like reading the *crap*
| that Phil, Graham and co. put up. This is probably because I am an Aussie
| (and a bit of a dickhead to boot!)
|
| By the way, if you have a problem with non-beer related posts, why did you
| ask a question relating to those matters?
|
| Cheers,
| Dave.

G'day,
Just as a note, I realised that I am a gimp and included no subject or
reference to what I was dribbling (read: whinging) about yesterday. It is
probably obvious, but it was the post by  another Dave, having a sook about
blokes who talk about non-beer stuff.

Also I know that I am probably regarded as a 'Bruce-come-lately' bloke, but
as you may have guessed, I have strong opinions, and am not afraid to give
them. I am not as elequant, and delicate with the responses I give (too much
beer whilst at the computer is the usual culprit), but I try.

With regard as to the drunkenness issue, it is quite different here in the
great brown land as it is in North Americas.  It is quite common for most
people (the people that I know anyway) to have a beer or two daily, and
public opinion is quite tolerant of such consumption. I am much like Graham,
in that I have one several awards for the consumption of alcohol, and stand
very proud in the fact that the current world record holder for the fastest
drinking of a yard-glass of beer is held by non-other than our former Prime
Minister, Bob Hawke. Yes excess is bad, and regular drunkenness is a problem
for those who encounter it, I don't deny that, but why is getting drunk on
the odd occasion so wrong?  Maybe in the society that I live in, and have
the beliefs of, that I just don't see it.

Cheers,
Bruce-come-lately.



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 09:51:54 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: Tidmarsh Major <ctmajor at samford.edu>
Subject: Bitter recipes

>From _Zymurgy_, vol. 18 no. 2, 1995:

Ordinary Bitter (5gal/19 L)
5 1/2 lb pale ale malt (Hugh Baird, Maris Otter, or DeWolf 
Cosyns) (2.5 kg)
1/2 lb 60L Maris Otter crystal malt (0.2 kg)
1/2 lb corn or cane sugar (0.2 kg)
1 oz DeWolf Cosyns blag malt (28 g)
1 oz Northern Brewer hops, 7% AA (28 g) 60 mins
1/2 East Kent Goldings hops, 5.2 % AA (14 g) 15 mins
1/2 oz Styrian Goldings hops, 5% AA (14 g) 5 mins
Optional: dry-hop with 1/2 to 1 oz of East Kent Goldings or 
Styrian Goldings (14 to 28 g)
Yeast Lab YLA01 liquid Australian ale culture or a 
well-attenuating strain with good fruity notes
OG: About 1.036
IBUs: 33 to 34
Single infusion mash 90 mins at 150 to 151 F (66 C). Raise 
to 168 F (76 C) for mash-out. Sparge with 170 to 175 F (77 
to 79 C) water. Boil 90 mins. Burtonize your water.
Ferment at 65 to 68 F (18 to 20 C). Extract brewers can 
substituttte 3 to 3.5 lbs (1.4 to 1.6 kg) dry malt extract 
for the pale ale malt and steep the specialty grains.

Flossmoor Best Bitter (5 gal/19 L)
7 1/4 lb pale ale malt (3.3 kg)
1/2 lb 60L crystal malt (0.2 kg)
1/4 lb flaked wheat (0.1 kg)
1 1/3 oz Northern Brewer hops, 7.1% AA (38 g) 60 miins
1/2 oz Styrian Goldings hop plug, 5% AA (14g) dry hopped in 
keg
ale yeast (Wyeast 1968 or 1928, Brewer's Resource CL-130, 
CL-160, and Yeast Culture Kit Co. NCYC 1187 are good 
choices)
Same brewing method as previous recipe.
OG: 1.044

Bitter (5 gal/19 L)
5 1/2 lb pale malt
3.4 [3/4?] lb 72L cara-Munich malt (0.3 kg)
1 lb flaked maize (0.5 kg)
2 oz DeWolf Cosyns Special B malt (57 g)
2/3 oz Northern Brewer hops, 7% AA (19 g) [60 mins?]
1/3 oz Fuggles hops, 4% AA (9 g) 60 mins
1/2 oz East Kent Goldings hops, 5% AA (14 g) 10 mins
1/2 oz East Kent Goldings hops, 5% AA (14 g) 2 mins
ale yeast (see Flossmoor Best Bitter examples)

Mash at 152 F (67 C).

Tidmarsh Major
Birmingham, Alabama



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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 10:32:25 -0500
From: "Brett A. Spivy" <baspivy at softdisk.com>
Subject: Beer glasses and Rennerian posts . . .

Jeff wrote (in part):

<snip>
I make my own soap and really like it with my softened water, but I'm
certainly glad for detergents.

For beer glasses, I use hand dishwashing detergent and just rinse really

well.  Seems to work pretty well, but not great.  I know brewers who use

nothing but hot water, but that won't remove lipstick, and it just
leaves
me uncomfortable anyway.

Jeff

<snip>

I too make a lot of our families soap (lucky me, I learned it from my
Great Great Grandmother as a very small child and was made responsible
for it throughout most of my early life).  Since I understand little of
the chemistry or the whys and how's of the process, I really appreciated
Jeff's post.  It has explained several mishaps through the years as my
father moved us from town to town and "things didn't always work out at
the new house".  Apparent differences in water hardness and the use of
"softened" water would explain most every mishap.  There is still one
that I don't understand in Merced, CA when I used the ash of a green
Sweet Gum tree exclusively and ended up with a lye solution so caustic I
could not cut it enough to make it usable, but that is entirely off
topic!

What is on topic is the cleaning of bar glasses.  We in the hospitality
industry (dive bars to the finest private clubs) have been using one
tried and true method for over forty years to ensure a clean, sanitary
glass that doesn't affect head retention ( positively or negatively).
In triple sink cleaning arrangements, the first sink is for detergent
(as opposed to soap) based cleaning, the second is a clean water rinse
of at least 140 degrees F, and the third is for a sanitizer.  While in
kitchens, bleach or chlorine based sanitizer is commonly used at 50 to
100 ppm, in better bars, a special sanitizer is used that contains a
sort of "anti-detergent".  The most common and user friendly is Beer
Clean TM brand.  It comes in individual packets of ~25g which is the
proper amount for a 1.5 gallon sink of water.  I am not at the bar right
now, but tomorrow I will have a packet on my desk if anyone wants more
info on ingredients or manufacturer, just post me.

Brett A. Spivy
Stolen Cactus Brewery
The Pinstripe Lounge
Shreveport, LA



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:18:57 -0400
From: "Alan Meeker" <ameeker at mail.jhmi.edu>
Subject: Brewing, drinking, and drunkedness

In response to Steve's recent post Pat wrote:

>You know: it never ceases to amaze me the direction some people will take
>on a comment or a set thereof.

Pat, if this is true after all this time running the HBD then you must have
an infinite capacity for wonderment!

>How many kids do you have, Steve? I hope to God they are not
>treated to the sight of their Dad wandering about in a drunken stupor
>every time you get the thirst for a beer. It's not a matter of hiding the
>intoxicant. It's a matter of demonstrating that it can be enjoyed -
>flavor, aroma, color and effects - without going over the deep end. It's a
>demonstration that you don't have to turn into a drooling idiot simply
>because you've enjoyed aome alcohol. Not the guise of sainthood, Steve -
>it's the demonstration of RESPONSIBILITY FOR ONES' OWN BEHAVIOR. Something
>we could use a whole lot more of these days...

I don't think this hyperbole is particularly useful and will only serve to
drive the thread further to extremes. I doubt that Steve is saying he
traipses around full tilt drunk every time he drinks beer!  Of course, I
can't really speak for Steve, but as for myself  I do take some issue with
your statements about "not going over the deep end" - who is to define what
the "deep end" is? Where does one draw the line? Personally, I wouldn't want
my kids to see me doubled up over the toilet puking my guts out so, yes, I
drink responsibly enough to avoid this situation (on the other hand,
witnessing the possible negative consequences of too much drinking might
actually be a lesson in itself!). Likewise, I wouldn't want to set an
example of driving after becoming intoxicated but, I also won't deceive my
kids and hide from them the fact that, on occasion, I find drinking past the
point of a light buzz pleasurable.

In my opinion (and it is just and only that) the most important thing when
dealing with kids is honesty. If you try to hide something from a child you
are doing them a disservice, besides, they can smell deception a mile away.
I love beer. I love everything about beer - the aroma, the appearance, the
flavor and, yes, the effect of the alcohol too. Some people have stated that
if they could brew NA beer they would, but to me this would be unacceptable
as it would negatively impact the flavor and remove the intoxicating effect
that I enjoy.  I believe my kids are able to contrast my passion for beer,
the type of passion for all aspects of a fine beer that I imagine all
homebrewers share, with the behavior of others who drink cheap tasteless
mass-marketed beer out of wide-mouthed cans primarily for the effect of the
alcohol. I think my kids are intelligent enough to make the distinction.

>Steve, I do not brew NA beer, I do not "hide my hobby from
>prohibitionists", and I do not brew behind closed doors - unless it is
>convenient (neighbors visiting with beers can sometimes draw the brew day
>out, or cause sparging accidents...). I simply DO NOT want the term "home
>brewer" and "drunk" forever tied together. No matter how you care to
>justify your version of the equation, there is a "does not equal" between
>"drunk" and "home brewer". Any more than is should be there when "home
>brewer" is replaced by "home wine maker". It is not about appeasing PC
>people or prohibitionists. It's about respect and the manner in which the
>most assinine of opinions some how manage to become law. I can't
>understand why that's so hard to get through.

As with children, I think the key to keeping "homebrewer does not equal
drunk" lies in being honest and educating the public. By and large the more
general equation "Beer drinker = drunk" is probably pretty well established
in the public's eye. What they need to realize is that, unlike the drinkers
of cheap and tasteless beer,  getting drunk is not the primary goal of the
homebrewer and, in fact, is often not a goal at all.

_Alan Meeker




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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 08:51:19 PDT
From: "Leland Heaton" <rlheaton at hotmail.com>
Subject: Aussie Posts (being non beer related).

If we had two seperate hbd's.  One for the aussies to have their "non-beer 
related posts" and one for the American's to have their "beer related 
posts", I would want to be an aussie.

When I joined the hbd, I had many beer related questions.  The longest it 
ever took me to get into hbd was 2 days.  I thought it was an important 
question...My beer tasted like vodka.  The next day, I was anxious to see my 
post so I could get responses but low and behold their were funny posts.  
And they made me relax a little bit.  It was good.  I don't want to have a 
stick up my ass and have it rammed in by a hammer every time I don't make a 
beer related post...personally...I think that the people who have fun at 
what they do are 1) fun people, and 2) good at what they do...

Graham, Phil, Jill, Keith, Lyndon, etc...Can I be an Aussie? :)..

P.S.  There would still be non-beer related posts in the american hbd, they 
would all deal with bac though.  Just food for thought...Not to rag on you, 
but I don't think your old.  Just re-learn to have fun at what you do...You 
must have had fun before, or you wouldn't have brewed for so long.

Leland (wannabe aussie)
________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 11:20:29 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Converting Decoction Recipies to Infustion Mashing

There has been a couple of great responses to some mashing questions
recently.  I have a similar question regarding the conversion of Decoction
recipes to Infusion Mashing recipes.  I have just built a RIMs with an
inline heating element as well my tun is a converted keg so external heat
addition is also an option, of course so is infusion of boiling water
giving me three modes of heating for step mashing.  My favorite recipe is
for Weizen from Eric Warner's book involving decoction mashing but it is a
lot of work, I would like to duplicate the end product with my RIMs.  How
should his recipe be converted?  If stepping the mash through a temperature
profile what is the best method for raising the temperature? Does the
dilution effect of adding boiling water affect the end product negatively.
The Rims heating rate is 1 deg C per 1.5 minutes.




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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:57:45 -0700
From: "John Todd Larson" <larson at amazon.com>
Subject: Can't we all just get along?

I agree with Pat's recent comments re/ the desire to not associate
"homebrewing" with "drunk".  "Drunk" is considered by most of the world to
be a derogatory term.

However, I also agree with some of the other posts that getting "drunk" is
not the end of the world.  Yes, I have kids.  No, I do not get "drunk" in
front of them.  However, I do enjoy having more than few beers on the
occasional Saturday night, when the opportunity is right (a designated
driver, good friends, etc.).  Yes, I enjoy the effects of alcohol.  Yes, I
am still a good father.

Hopefully, we can all agree that being "a drunk" is a little different than
occasionally drinking more than one probably should.

J. Todd Larson



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 10:43:07 -0500 
From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald)
Subject: RE: An interesting Question

From: Alan Monaghan <AlanM at Gardnerweb.com>

>....My temps approach 160 degrees (F) by the end of the 45 minutes.
>I also am noticing that I am unable to get the mash temp up to the hi 160's
>to low 170's when I am at the end of the mashing cycle. What is the best
way
>(short of being able to apply heat directly to the vessels) that I can do
>this. Or, how are rest of you doing this?...

It seems to take quite a lot of heating to move the grain temp up to 170's
from mash temps.  I use a HERMS system, and allow circulation and heating,
takes about 15 minutes (Igloo Cooler), and I also noticed that the temp at
the top where the liquor enters is at 170+, but it takes some time for the
temperature at the bottom to reach 170F even during the circulation.

The best thing I have done is to permanently install a dial thermometer near
the bottom of the Igloo mash tun. I need to be patient, for I know the temp
will get there after a time.  Another strange observation, the temps during
mashing 150+F, seem to hold well in the mash tun, but when mashing out and
sparging, the 170+F will not hold without additional heating by sparging.

Ron

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde



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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:33:24 -0700
From: "Scott Church" <schurch at gte.net>
Subject: Intoxication

I apologize to those who have heard enough on this subject.(I know it has
been beat), but...

I find it very hard to believe that there is a "Die Hard" beer brewing
enthusiast out there, that
has never been DRUNK! And if there is.....what the hell are you waiting for?
Look: I don't drink every night, and when I do drink it's usually 1 or 2
beers....but.....there are those times (about once a year) when I "tie one
on".

There are many good things that come from the occasional state of "over
indulgence": for one, you usually end up saying or doing something stupid,
which in retrospect fosters caution and keeps one from repeating the act
anytime soon.(we all need a little kick of
humility from time to time)........Hell, let's face it, half of the
population wouldn't even have been born if it weren't for inebriation.(as
alcohol appears to be the "anti-birth control")
 ...Another bonus is that you won't forget those special times with your
friends, as they will periodically bring up the incident(.....man, you
remember that time.....)   I would like to say that occasional state of OI
is also a way to obtain a new perspective on various things, but the
"revelations" are usually lost by the morning. There is, however, scientific
proof that OI does actually boost energy/productivity level for about 1
week.(after the humility sets in the next day, one usually works real hard
and does all the things that they have been neglecting) Maybe it's the
secret of "youth"......because it usually make you feel like a kid again!
(oooooooooo.....look what we're doing?)

I'm not saying it's O.K. to get trashed and drive, nor am I saying that it's
an excuse to beat your wife, but loosen up folks.......it's just life. I
live a pretty "low key" life, I'm a responsible individual and a role-model
for the children I teach, but once in a while I don't want to be!
On those few occasions when I have been "sauced", it wasn't to hide from
something or mask some deep emotional scar.......it was for a much simpler
reason.....it's fun!!!!    Your hang'n with you friends, your enjoying the
mood, the beers go down REAL easy, you blab a lot of shit(which of course
keeps your thirst up)...and the next thing you know, you've lost
count....(whoooooo cares?!) It really isn't much different from racing dirt
bikes or sky diving. It's a slightly reckless act.

Rule #1 -- Live, Brew, and Drink responsibly
Rule #2 -- Break rule #1 once in a while

Just a regular guy!
(most of the time)

Scott






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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 12:49:56 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: re: homebrewing and drunkenness

Pat Babcock (or perhaps it's his evil twin brother, Skippy) continues his
protestations with:

No matter how you care to
> justify your version of the equation, there is a "does not
> equal" between
> "drunk" and "home brewer".


Pat/Skippy, you have fought the good fight and I commend you for it, but
alas, the battle is lost. On Big Brother, a program watched by millions of
people (yes, I watch it much the same way I gawk at horrific car crashes and
country-western music videos), the house drunkards have been given the
challenge to make drinkable beer in 7 days. Now, we all know what beer is
like at that age. My feeling is they won't even bottle it. Can you imagine
if a still fermenting bottle exploded and injured one of the contestants?
They would get more money than the last person in the house. No, I figure in
7 days time, they'll just start dipping their glasses into the bucket and
within a couple of days, it will be gone. You'll have a half dozen people
sitting around pissed to the gills and farting (oh yea, there gonna learn
about the effects of yeast on the human GI tract, all right), and that is
the image Americanada will be left with of homebrewers. No point in fighting
it. I'm so depressed I think I'll just take off from work early, get good
and pissed at the bar, then steal a motorcycle and drive home drunk without
a helmet.

Brian



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Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 14:05:35 -0400
From: Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Rainwater

In Tuesday's HBD, Jeff Renner was talking about soaps, and the fact that
rainwater was soft. This got me to thinking. Would it be a good idea to
collect rainwater, or snow for that matter, and use it for making
pilseners? Or would there be too big a risk of polutants in the rainwater?

I remember back in the 1980's Mother Earth News did an interview with an
American Indian medicine man named "Rolling Thunder", or some such thing.
In the interview he stated his belief that rain that fell during a
thunderstorm had "power", and so was a good thing to drink. I thought that
was pretty cool, so I used to put all kinds of bowls outside to catch the
"thunder water" and then I would drink it. It really had a strange taste
for water, which I attributed to nitrogen. I don't really know if that was
the reason for the taste, though.

After a while, someone mentioned their may be a lot of pollutants in the
rainwater, and I quit the practice. (Also, I done growed up some ;^) )

Anyway, are there any concerns out there in HBD land about using rainwater
in these modern times? It would be easy to catch the runoff from a roof and
direct it into a plastic barrel or garbage can using a rain gutter.



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