---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
		Many thanks to the Observer & Eccentric Newspapers of 
		Livonia, Michigan for sponsoring the Homebrew Digest.
				URL: http://www.oeonline.com


Contents:
  Korea, the cultural other, and human rights abuses (Keith Busby)
  Re: Spent Grain Bread (Jeff Renner)
  Outsourcing ("Doug Moyer")
  hop plugs causing cloudy beer? (Teutonic Brewer)
  St. Patrick's Day ("Rob Moline")
  Re: Lommi's Pub in Cologne (Brunnenbraeu)
  SUCCESS!! ("Casey C.")
  Stuff ("Stephen Alexander")
  Spontainous fermentation ("Jens P. Maudal")
  Beer in NYC (Captain)
  Ask Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy - HBD confusion (Jim Adwell)
  High F.G. Barleywine/Czerpak Altbier ("Fred L. Johnson")
  RE: Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing (SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
  Foundation Water Loss (Dan Listermann)
  Re: FW & MASH hopping (Jeff Renner)
  Trip to Scotland (RobertS735)
  HBD Illustrated? ("A. J.")
  Aint Enzymes Wonderful ("Graham Sanders")
  Hops and Dogs Info ("Jeremy Craigs")
  Oat Beer ("Jack Schmidling")
  Bad Beer Blues (category: humor) (Tom Lombardo)
  Pittsburgh Micros ("Rick Jarvis")
  Saflager S-23 dry lager yeast (David Houseman)
  10+g fermentors and stupid fl. beerlaw tricks (Tombrau)
  Basic wine recipe? (Weaver Joseph  39MDG/SGOAM)
  FW: What would you brew? (Weaver Joseph  39MDG/SGOAM)
  Tony reviews my book ("Brian Lundeen")


* 
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 20:17:05 -0500
From: Keith Busby <kbusby at facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Korea, the cultural other, and human rights abuses

Yes, off-topic, but . . .

Marvin's misinformation about Korea is unfortunate and his choice of the
word "slob" inappropriate, but can Ron really mean what he seems to be saying?

If I understand him correctly, under the guise of understanding and
tolerating cultural differences, we should accept human rights abuses.
Child labor, slavery,  etc., are WRONG under any circumstances. Assuming
you accept the existence of basic human rights, that is. Can we tolerate
the practice of female circumcision in certain African countries just
because it has historical and cultural causes? Do we approve of the
Taliban's treatment of women because it hides behind the cloak of Islam? We
disapprove of such abuse because we now know better. The fact that America
had slavery in the past can't excuse its existence today in another
culture. As for the expression "bleeding heart liberals", if it implies
human sympathy with the abused, then some of us must plead guilty; and I
have always found it a mystery how certain segments of the US population
contrive to make the word "liberal" a pejorative.

Ron is right about the origins of long summer holidays, but for
"cotton-picking", read whatever crop was harvested in whatever part of
North America or Europe in the summer. Of course, your kids will browse
porn, smoke, or fornicate in the summer unless they have been brought up to
spend their time in more profitable pastimes. There are other alternatives
to sending them down the saltmines for three months on the trot.

Keith Busby


Professor of French
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Department of French and Italian
618 Van Hise Hall
Madison, WI 53706

(608) 262-3941
(608) 265-3892 (fax)


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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:39:13 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Spent Grain Bread

"Bob Mori" <bob.mori at poboxes.com> asked
> Where can I find a recipe for spent grain bread.

I wrote an article in the infamous "bottle opener" issue of Zymurgy
(Spring, 1997) called "Bread for Brewers."  In it I gave some recipes, and
also described how to use last runnings and your yeast.  There was another
article a year or so later by another author.  Unfortunately, Zymurgy is
not (yet?) online.

Many of my ramblings on the subject are in the archives.  Check for my name
and bread, or spent grain(s).

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 22:15:46 -0400
From: "Doug Moyer" <shyzaboy at yahoo.com>
Subject: Outsourcing

When not cackling maniacally and filling his mash tun with hops, Marc Sedam
<marc_sedam at unc.edu> sez:

<snip>
In general (and please don't beat me over the head
with specifics--I know they exist, but I'm looking at this
on a large scale)--the US produces what we do best
(innovative products) and Korea does what it does best
(produce "stuff" via large, relatively cheap labor force).
</snip>

Here I go with the specifics! <grin> In a recently former life, I outsourced
a fair amount of machined components overseas. Korea is rapidly going the
way of Japan which followed the US and Europe. Laborers are catching on, and
driving up their salaries. Accordingly, Korean parts aren't much cheaper
than those made here. On the flip side, the quality has gone up
substantially in the ROK. Same with Hong Kong, Taiwan and (less so)
Thailand. (Although you have to be careful with Hong Kong--many of the
HK-based companies are actually manufacturing on the mainland.) So, in an
effort to get really cheap, sub-standard parts, you have to go to China.
Even the ones that brag about QS9000 certification can't make a part
consistently. But, they're cheap! (About a third or less of an equivalent
US-made part, including shipping and customs.)

Back to beer. I tried my hardest, and did repeated trials, but never found a
decent beer in Korea. (OB Super Dry--yahoo!)
Brew on!

Doug Moyer
Salem, VA

Star City Brewers Guild: http://hbd.org/starcity

"There is a very fine line between 'hobby' and 'mental illness.'"
     ~ Dave Barry




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Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2000 21:36:24 -0600
From: Teutonic Brewer <claassen at swcp.com>
Subject: hop plugs causing cloudy beer?

I recently started using hop plugs (Saazer and Hersbrucker) instead of hop
pellets, and now I have a problem with my beer coming out very cloudy and
tasting muddled.

The rest of my brewing process hasn't changed much in the last two years.
For the record:
(1) Treat water treatment with calcium chloride and slaked lime to knock
the alkalinity out. Water comes out with a neutral pH.
(2) Step mash (Fix's 40-60-70 regimen using direct heat) with Weissheimer
malts at 1.5 quarts per pound. 5% to 10% of base malt normally
lacto-bacterial sour mashed for 36 hours beforehand. Overall mash pH
usually measures 5.2 to 5.3.
(3) Lauter with a slotted pipe manifold in the bottom of a 7 gallon bucket.
Sparge water volume is equal to mash water. Extraction rate consistently is
about 85%, give or take a point or two.
(4) Top up and boil 7 gallons down to 6 in 75 minutes at 201F (94C). Low
temp is due to 5900 foot altitude.
(5) FWH with T-20 and T-5 additions. I formerly used pellets but now use plugs.
(6) Chill with 2 stage chiller down to 50F.
(7) Oxygenate for 30 minutes or so with pure O2.
(8) Ferment at 50F or 64F depending on beer.
(9) Keg and lager at 34F.

Earlier batches hopped with pellets would enter the lagering with a mild to
moderate chill haze and would clear up after a few weeks in the keg. Two
batches using plugs this spring, a Koelsch and an Altbier, never did clear
up, even after extended lagering. Both batches had a muddled, unclear
flavor, but it wasn't an infection or HSA and CSA. The beer felt slightly
heavy or pasty on the tongue, but I doubt it was unconverted starch since
I'm getting proper extraction and haven't changed my mashing procedure.
Excess protein, perhaps? The German Pils I brewed a couple days ago entered
the chiller nicely clear and came out thoroughly milky with cold break, and
I didn't see much hot break left behind in the kettle with the hops. I
don't seem to get as much hot break with the plugs. 

What's going on here? Do pelletized hops (being shredded as they are)
provide more tannin than whole/plug hops for the heavy protein to combine
with, thereby increasing hot break and final clarity? Anybody else
experienced this problem between hop forms?  I've never had to use Irish
moss or Polyclar(tm) in the past, but would consider it now. Any help is
greatly appreciated. Private email OK. TIA.

Paul Claassen, aka Teutonic Brewer
Albuquerque, Chile Republic of New Mexico




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Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 23:02:36 -0500
From: "Rob Moline" <brewer at isunet.net>
Subject: St. Patrick's Day

Folks,
	Anyone have any credible ideas on the origin of the "Green Beer" thing done
for St. Patrick's Day? Documentation would be a plus.
Thanks,
Rob Moline

 "The More I Know About Beer, The More I Realize I Need To Know More About
Beer!"



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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 00:43:54 EDT
From: Brunnenbraeu at aol.com
Subject: Re: Lommi's Pub in Cologne

Alan McKay tells us in HBD #3417 about the maybe most typical Koelsch Pub in 
Cologne, Lommi's:

>  At Lommis everyone is treated equally,
>  be they black, white, red, yellow, plumber, farmer, executive, politician,
>  whatever ...

To this, I can add, that when American president William Clinton was in 
Cologne some months ago, his folks tried to make a reservation of the whole 
pub for a visit. You know, all that security stuff - no other customers at 
the same time, security check of the personnel, special treatment for 'Mr. 
President', and so on... Usual politician's hysteria...

And Lommi's typical reaction was: 'If he comes to us, he will be treated the 
same as any other customer - I dont make reservations, even if it would be 
the Emperor of China. I don't like to disappoint my regular customers!'

Poor Billy Boy! But it was the best advertisement for Lommi's Pub! And for 
William Clinton a lecture in real basic democracy...

Masses of regular customers - as always - overflooded his pub, and the 
American President's story made Mr. Lommerzheim even more famous among the 
Cologne pub crawlers - much more than a real visit of the American President 
would have done that...

Zum Wohl / Na zdrovie

Volker

Volker R. Quante
Brunnenbraeu Homebrewery

Brewing and working in Warsaw / Poland, but definitely a German Homebrewer


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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 01:00:45 -0700
From: "Casey C." <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: SUCCESS!!

Well,
    I have just made my third batch of beer with my friends (while we
sipped on our first two batches, which just finished) and I would just
like to say how much I love this hobby. We symbolically poured one of
our old budweisers down the drain after we dropped the yeast in our
honey wheat beer and as we took a reaffirming sip of our london porter
we all agreed..."Damn! This is some good shit!!".

Homebrewer forever more,
Casey





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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 05:33:33 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Stuff

Scott Morgan writes ...
>i guess the change of thinking that is needed is to stop that
>bad American habit, of thinking from a USA perspective.

And here I thought it was your bad habit of thinking from a non-US
perspective.  You Aussies really have this tongue-in-cheek humor
nailed.  I'll bet you don't have an accent either  ;^)

==
J. Marvin Campbell says ...

>Nothing against Korea, but [...]
> assembled by some poor
>eleven-year-old slob making $20/week.

Last I checked S.Korean per capita purchasing power was on par w/ Portugal
or 82% of New Zealand's, and they have 9 years of mandatory public
education -  so there aren't any 11yo Korean kids making your beer toys
Marvin.  All of your blather about 3rd world economies, child labor and
oppressed workers has no relevance to modern S.Korea.  Why not check if
there ARE any human rights abuses before you suggest blackballing a
country's products ?  Even if there were, they've had a pretty decently
functioning representative government to correct such ills for the past few
decades.

==

I fear that I kicked-off the whole CP bashing thing when I suggested his
books were read-once fare.   CJoHB and the follow-on N.. are good intro
books, but I don't care for them when it comes to detailed questions.
That's all I meant.   We all owe CharlieP a debt for popularizing HB and so
making HB shops a regular part of the landscape.

==

Charlie Papazian writes of ... Taking a walk on the hotside
and Rob Moline answered the issues better than I could have,
save one.

 >Of course adding a pinch of cinnamon [...].

Cinnamon's primary phenolics are good antioxidants at high pH and relatively
poor at low (mash) pH.  Same with BHA and BHT.  Also malt supplies a lot
more hydroxycinnamic and coumaric acids than would a pinch of cinnamon.  The
resulting oxidized phenolics are exactly what you don't want in beer.
Ascorbic acid in the mash might be a better choice tho' there are problems
there too.

 -S




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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:47:53 +0200
From: "Jens P. Maudal" <Jens.maudal at c2i.net>
Subject: Spontainous fermentation

Hi collective!
I am wondering if anybody have experience with using a sourdough
from bread baking as a starter for eg. a lambic type beer.
As far as i can understand this must be the same type of thing. A doug
or wort..... they where both left out to become enoculated with wild yeast.
I have a sourdough strain that goes all the way back to ca.1850
this we still use for bread baking, is there a grave reason for not using
this in making beer and if i do use it what kind of result could i expect.
Does anybody have an oppinion on this or even better, experiance
with it.
SKAAL!
Jens

Jens P. Maudal jens.maudal at c2i.net
Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Visit my humble RIMS and homebrew page: 
http://home.c2i.net/bottomsup/index.htm

Norbrygg bryggeside: http://www.norbrygg.com
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 07:41:56 -0500
From: Captain <captain at iquest.net>
Subject: Beer in NYC

My wife and I will be visiting NYC around Thanksgiving. Wherever we travel 
we search out breweries, brewpubs, or hangouts that just have great 
selections. Does anyone have any suggestions? One other question, it's a 
little off topic but since I coupled it with a beer request...

I hate the thought of having a car in the city. Does anyone know of a place 
outside the city we can park and ride the train in?
"To do is to be."
 -Descartes
"To be is to do."
 -Voltaire
" Do be do be do."
 -Frank Sinatra

Jim Kirk - captain at iquest.net
http://www.iquest.net/~captain/


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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 08:59:04 -0400
From: Jim Adwell <jimala at apical.com>
Subject: Ask Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy - HBD confusion

After downing a couple of sixers/cartons, Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy is once
again ready to explain things.  This week's edition tackles the confusion
rampant here at the HBD.

Spencer W. Thomas is confused about anti-oxidants:

"And here I thought it was coriander (ref: HBD 1576 and following, Nov,
1994, also Zymurgy Special Issue, 1994, p44).
No, wait!  It's cardamom (ref: HBD 3303, April, 2000).
And now!  It's cinnamon.
Whew.  I can't keep up.  :-)"

Spencer, all ya gotta do is add large amounts of *all* of the 'C' spices,
including Vitamin 'C', in your mash and all the oxygen will instantly be
sucked up and destroyed in the vicinity of your mash tun ( be sure to wear
your scuba gear while brewing) as soon as the mash temp hits 177.359
degrees F.  I know this because it was in a brewing book I found in a
supermarket in Perth while shopping for Vegemite.  And throw in some
aspirin and milk for luck, too.  Hey, it couldn't hurt, right? 

Jack Schmidling is confused, too:

"All the concen for the lost wort under a false bottom may be a great sales
pitch for an  EASYMASHER but in reality, there should be nothing in that
dead space worth worrying about."

Who said anything about false bottoms?  John Palmer was talking about
manifolds.  My elderly aunt has worn a false bottom for years ( the result
of an unfortunate accident involving a toilet seat in the '80s), but so
what?  Once again Jack goes off tangentially to the subject.  

Sometimes late at night Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy worries about dead space, but
a couple of beers fixes that.

Nathaniel P. Lansing is confused about rust:

"  Is this at all like how the steel frame around my brewing burners rust?
I'm sure oxygen is not dissolving into the steel but the areas of highest
heat concentration show increased rusting. The rust *appears* to be
happening at the surface, not starting from the interior of the steel."

Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy's frame is rusty, too, and frankly he's pretty tired
of it.  Maybe if we coated our respective frames with
cinnamom/coriander/cardamom ...? Try it, Nathaniel, and report the results
to Mr. Beer-Drinking Guy for inclusion in a future issue.

"How's that for comparing apples and oranges?"

Not as good as Jack; see above.

Cheers, and mash-hop on, dudes,

Jim


Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/


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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 09:23:12 -0400
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: High F.G. Barleywine/Czerpak Altbier

Steven Schultz has a barleywine that stopped fermenting with an attenuation
of only 57%, even after pitching dry champagne yeast and dry Nottingham when
it initially stopped fermenting.

It seems quite possible that Steven could have a high final gravity for a
couple of reasons, only one of which has he any control of.  Steven's
unspecified "high mash temperature" certainly would contributed to a higher
final gravity.  But in my experience some malts have significant amounts of
unfermentables.  For example, I have made a few  beers that were about 90%
Munich malt mashed at 147 degrees F that simply would not attenuate to below
63%!  In my case it was clearly the malt.  In Steven's case it could be the
mash temperature and the malt.

This post may also pertain to Pete Czerpak's altbier with 100% light Munich
that has probably stopped fermenting at 1.020 (probably about 60%
attenuation.)

Quite frankly, I don't understand how anyone can  make a good alt (including
Al Korzonas), with their characteristic high attenuation levels, using the
high levels of Munich malt I have often seen for this style.  I have simply
quit trying. Suggestions are welcome!
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 07:56:22 -0400
From: "FC1(SW) James Pensinger" <pensinger at deyo.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Star San and keeping my fridge from freezing

>Secondly, my lagering fridge sits on a back patio.  With the coming winter,
I
>need to explore ways of keeping the inside from dipping below freezing
>temperatures.  One solution would be to install a low watt incandescent
light
>bulb to provide a source of internal heat.  However, the fridge often
>contains
>beer in glass carboys, and I worry about the potential detriment of
exposing the
>beer to a continuous light source.  How have others dealt with this issue?

Use a reptile heater.  These are non light producing ceramic heaters.  Rig a
thermostat for it and you are in buisnes

Mike Pensinger
beermaker at mad.scientist.com


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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 11:12:57 -0400
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Foundation Water Loss

<From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Dead Space Momily

The wort under the false bottom has the same gravity as the wort above it
and when sparging is complete, it is, for all practical purposes, water.
You lose nothing but an extra gallon of sparge water.>

Jack is of course correct about this, but he may have missed a siginificant
point he brought up in his last sentence.  A gallon of sparge water is
about 20% of a five gallon batch's water available for the pick up of sugar
that will not be exposed to the grain bed in a proper manner.  False
bottoms should be as close to the bottom of the lauter tun as possible to
minimize the need for foundation water, but not so close as to set up
pressure differences that can cause imbalanced lautering.  Phil's Phalse
Bottoms are only about 5/8 to 3/4 off the bottom.  This is low enough that
I don't usually bother with foundation water and high enough that the
manifold effect keeps lautering even.

Dan Listermann   dan at listermann.com      

Check out our new E-tail site at listermann.com!


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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 10:54:56 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: FW & MASH hopping

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> asks

>I remember reading that FWH was not always a good idea with higher alpha
>hops. I'm wondering how true that is, and does it also apply to mash hopping?
>
>Specifically, I'm interested in trying an APA, mash hopping with Chinook,
>and FWH with Chinook also.  Has anyone tried this? Do Chinook hops lend
>themselves well to these techniques? TIA.

I think there are two caveats with using high alpha hops for FWHing.
First, many/most of them are coarse flavored hops you might not like for
flavor/aroma, and it is this that will come through.  I'm not sure Chinook
would be pleasant, at least for me.  I FWHed once with Cluster and didn't
like the results at all.

Secondly, With high alpha hops, you need to take into account their
contribution to bitterness and cut way back on bittering hops.  This is not
normally done when using low-alpha noble hops for FWH.

I haven't tried Chinook, but I did make an APA with Columbus hops, all as
FWH (no other additions).  It turned out pretty well, with a pretty strong
hop flavor.

I also have tasted a Helles made by Steve Alexander that used all the
(low-alpha noble) hops as FWH.  Too much hop flavor for style, but an
interesting experiment.  I think this would be interesting to try with a
pils.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943. 




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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 12:07:57 EDT
From: RobertS735 at aol.com
Subject: Trip to Scotland

Greeting to beer friends.
Business and pleasure will take me to the far north of Scotland in the 
mid-October time frame, and I would appreciate suggestions for pubs, 
breweries, and other interesting things/places to go.

Our hosts will have the Scotch Whisky travels planned already, but the beer 
interests me greatly.

In addition, on our return to the States, we will have most of a day in or 
near the Gatwick airport. Again recommendation of places to go are welcomed, 
as well as places to avoid.
Thanks in advance- please feel free to use private e-mail if you prefer.
Bob


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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 22:50:23 +0000
From: "A. J." <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: HBD Illustrated?


With the demise of BT the HBD has had to take up the role of a place
where people can exchange techical information though it may frequently
be over the noise of the Luddites often found here. One of the big
problems has been that of communicating graphical information for those
of us who aren't also web masters. The .com types may have solved that
problem for us. There are at least a couple of sites who will post
pictures for users at no cost beyond forcing them to endure an endless
stream of banner ads. In the first case (www.zing.com) images in several

formats are accepted though I have found this system virtually
inaccessible for upload. The other, www.clubphoto.com accepts only JPEGs

but is useable. In either case, after the picture is downloaded an HBDer

needs to extract the URL from the system - this is pretty straightforwar

as it starts with http and ends with .jpg and then put the URL in his
HBD post.  For example, if we were talking about alcohol determination
we might point out that a pycometer is a relatively inexpensive tool for

determining the specific gravity of the distillate from a test beer and
offer a picture of one at:
http://members3.clubphoto.com/aj258779/Demo_Album/photo3.jpg
Similarly, if we want to show the relationship between the specific
gravity of the distillate and its alcohol content graphically we might
post
http://members3.clubphoto.com/aj258779/Demo_Album/photo2.jpg
JPEGs aren't the greatest for graphs which are basically vector in
nature but as you can see from this example if you look at it, the
rendition isn't too bad.
As a third example, those who want to see a dog which has been (thus
far) unharmed by spent hops I can send to:
http://members3.clubphoto.com/aj258779/Demo_Album/photo1.jpg

Clicking on these URL's will bring the image down into your browser/mail
program
which will present it in whatever fashion it is set up to do it. For
example, Netscape on the Mac thinks a pixel is a pixel is a pixel and
that there are 72 to the inch. Period. Thus a 2000 pixel wide  image
will be presented scaled to be 28 inches wide and off the screen if
viewed in-line. Readers may wish, therefore,  to set up to capture JPEGs
directly into PhotoShop,
for example.

In getting these pics to the readership the poster also has the option
of sending the readers to www.clubphoto.com and having them type in the
poster's e-mail address at the home page. This gets them to the poster's

page which may contain several "albums" which when opened present the
images in manageable size which can be expanded if the image is clicked.

Curious to see what the rest of you think of this and wonder of we'll
start to see graphics creep into the stodgy old text only HBD. If
interest is stimulated I suppose we ought to ask the janitors to
recommend one of the multiple options as the standard for the digest.

A.J.





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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:00:34 +1000
From: "Graham Sanders" <craftbrewer at cisnet.COM.AU>
Subject: Aint Enzymes Wonderful

G'day all

Well just about to go out the back (as oppose to outback) to do some work.
But I have to tell. I made my Heffe-Weisen, and as i stated it was a simple
receipe for 38 litres, that is 3.7 kg Pilsner malt and 2.7 kg of PLAIN WHEAT
FLOUR and heaps of rice husks. Now for all who are waiting for the results.
No real problems.  I have a beautiful Heffe in the fermentation fridge
already working like the Ram in the Ewes paddock.  But I can hear the cries
from here "stuck mash, stuck mash. You should have had a stuck mash."

Let me tell you about it.  Quite interesting.  Normally most of us poor
craftbrewers have to take the words of  the wise about the enzymes in malt.
This temp for gelatin, another for acidification, yet another for protein,
and of course scarification.  If we actually do this we see little sign of
much going on, except possibly for scarification, where the wort does become
sweeter.  The rest we just rely on that, yes something is happening there,
don't know what but 'thats the temp they say'.  Well for the first time I
actually saw all a lot of the enzymes work (more correctly the end result),
and it happen before my little Nth Qld eyes.  The day went like this.

Mashed in the normal amount of water at 20c for 7.7 kg of grist.  Left it
sit for
1/2 hour.  Now I can tell you I almost gave up here.  I made a wonderful
paste us older people can remember we made at school for glue.  It was thick
and white and basic crap. The gluten and such was well there.  But in true
spirit of the North I soldered on.  Lifted a small portion of glue and
raised the temp to 70c.  Surprise, surprise, I had thinner glue, but now I
had basically sweet glue.  I didn't boil this first decoct as my enzymic
strength was
overal low so this went back into the mash tun.  At least I knew some
enzymes were there and working.

Ok the glue now at 35c.  Let it rest half an hour, and go for a cuppa. Now
there are enzymes that work at these temps, that I have been told about
(truth is read in Noonan's) But the simple fact (I am a simple person) was
when I returned I still had a milky white mess.  But when I lifted some for
the second decotion, it was incredibly thinner.  the gluten (I'm guessing)
had been broken down.  What-ever it was, it was no longer glue.

Gave a portion a full decoction and boil.  Back into the mash tun. Up to
48c.  Good enough for me, off for a another cuppa.  Half an hour latter yet
another surprise.  Its no longer white (like me when SWMBO wants sex), but a
normal mash colour (now thats real technical for you).  Its also thin like a
normal mash.  Now this must be what the protein rest must actually do I
think, and its still in the range of those other enzymes ( I could name the
buggers out of my Noonan's but I don't understand exactly what they do, and
dont rally care for that matter).

Full of confidence now, set up the HERMS and do my final decoction.  In she
goes. stir in and let it settle.  Perfect about 60 c.  The HERMS will bring
it up to 67c.  Now the test, on goes the pump.  Absolutely NO FLOW.  (is
this the famous stuck mash). Perhaps here I need to explain my system. My
mash tun is xxxx keg( sankey keg I think) and my outlet is right at the
bottom of the curved bottom.  My screen is nothing more than a SS screen
that sits on the curved bottom.

So i disconnect the pump.  Still no flow.  Now although SWMBO is better than
this at me, I give it a good suck. Nothing.  A few more and out comes this
glue.  Now I see the problem.  In the small space between the screen and
bottom some of the earlier glue had settled.  So a few more sucks and out it
comes in globs (oh the boy was worried about the spit, but I told him I was
adding extra emzymes for starch convertion) Thats quite true too by the way.
Anyway after removing a cup of heavy starch and adding it back to the top of
the tun (took 5 minutes), well its Burdekin River (opps Mississippi for you
yanks) in flood.  It flowed.

After that It ran like clockwork.  As to be expected, hugh break material,
foams like buggery, Crystal clear when hot, light cloudiness when cool, but
the biggest surprise is colour.  My is it pale. Out of the boiler it looked
like water.  Its most certainly the lightest coloured beer I have ever made,
and thats including the fact it was 2.5 times decocted.  I'll say it again,
its great to actually see what those little enzymes can actually do.

So whats the conclusion and why did i do it. I can certainly see why you
will get a stuck mash with flour.  Dont use the enzymes right, and yep you
on. Certainly wouldn't recommend it to a beginner.   BUT, there is no reason
it can't be done, if you know what you are
doing.  I personally found it a real education, and will certainly do it
again on my Wit Beer next. I learnt a little bit more about the process.

And why take up the challenge in the first place.  Well I feel a lot of
people will tell you 'their expert opinion' as if its written in stone.  Its
seems a lot of the time it something they have read somewhere, with no
actual experience on the matter.  Now thats all and well in some cases, (who
going to argue about the optium ph of x) (or if you jump out of a moving car
it will hurt), but many make sweeping statements
without first hand experience.

  So when I'm told "you cant use wheat flour
you'll get a stuck sparge"(or any sweeping statement) I always first ask "Is
that your experience", then I ask "why".  We all know "why", but the other
question- well few can answer that.  I could see no reason why it shoudn't
work, and I put it to the test.  IT CAN BE DONE, SUCCESSFULLY. (the final

Food for thought.

Shout

Graham Sanders

Oh

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 16:50:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: My .02$

1.) I enjoy the good natured banter from down-under and if you don't
remember the [page down] key.
4.) We need to remember that this is a hobby and that most of us do it for
the
joy of brewing or building equipment or the fellowship of other brewers or
for the just plain fun of it all.
5.) Personal attacks are just not acceptable! I know I can always [page
down]
but it just doesn't warrant the band-width!  Think before you post! Ask
yourself if your post will help someone brew a better beer or at least
provide
a chuckle or two.
________________

Well put mate.  I'll give you a special discount.  For this month only, its
only half a craton entry fee if you wish to visit Nth Queensland.  will take
you fishing if you like.




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Date: Sat, 02 Sep 2000 20:04:32 EDT
From: "Jeremy Craigs" <kingjeremyis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hops and Dogs Info

http://www.bodensatz.com/homebrew/
I believe he has a section on dogs and hops.
An informative site in general as well.

Jer
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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http://profiles.msn.com.



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Date: Sat, 2 Sep 2000 18:40:38 -0500
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Oat Beer

I have a friend who just combined   (that's accent on the com for the city
folks) his oats so I thought I would try some in a batch of beer.

I substituted 5 lbs of it for 5 lbs of malt in my standard Munich Dark and
the strangest things happened.

First of all, the mash was thick as oatmeal and I was concerned that the
Mixmasher might not make it through the mash schedule.

The mash took about 90 to convert instead of the usual 30 but this did not
surprise me much.

What did bother me was that the gravity was only about 1.038 instead of the
usual 1.050.  This is about what I would have gotten if I just used 10 lbs
of malt in a 10 gallon batch.   What happened to the oats?

What is really strange is the fermentation... bubbles are rising furiously
to the surface but there is not the slightest hint of foam, much less the
usual 6 inches of rocky head.

Guess it will be beer but have no clue what it will taste like.

Anyone out there ever try this?

js

p.s.  Just sampled it and it tastes like nominal beer.

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
Home Page: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf



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Date: Sun, 03 Sep 2000 07:03:16 -0500
From: toml at ednet.rvc.cc.il.us (Tom Lombardo)
Subject: Bad Beer Blues (category: humor)

Check out
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/120/rule_really_underskilled_l.html and
scroll down to the "Bad Beer Blues".  Sound familiar?

Tom (in Rockford, IL)



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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 09:44:44 -0400
From: "Rick Jarvis" <rjarvis at zbzoom.net>
Subject: Pittsburgh Micros

Julio Canseco of Athens wants to visit the 'Burgh and have a brew or two....

Welcome to Pittsburgh!
We have some great micros!

1) Penn Brewery - Troy Hill, on the North Side of Pittsburgh is the
granddaddy of ours. All Rheinheigbrot (sic) German brews & food .

2) Churchworks , Lawrenceville section near Pittsburgh Brewing, home of Iron
City- awesome ales in a restored church, now that's religion, good food &
pizzas too.

3) Foundry - typically 10 on tap & a cask ale!.  Food okay, not great.

4). Valhalla - great looking yuppie place with unique food and ok brews. My
last choice.

All of these are with in 10 minutes of each other. Worth a pubcrawl

Rick Jarvis
Wexford PA



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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 05:59:42 -0400
From: David Houseman <dhousema at cccbi.org>
Subject: Saflager S-23 dry lager yeast

I have used the Saflager S-23 dry lager yeast for several lager styles with
very good sucess.  Oktoberfests, Dunkels and German Pils.  Primary
fermentation was at about 48oF with lagering at about 33oF.  Clean
fermentation.  Some sulfur production that dissipated during lagering.  The
convience of a good dry lager yeast means I get to make the decision to brew
or not, and which style, at the last minute, without having to plan ahead to
grow up starters, which I normally do with both lagers and ales.  But I just
re-hydrated the Saflager and pitched without adverse consequences.  I do
hope that Lallamand does come out with several dry lager yeasts so we have a
wide selection to chose from.  When I have the time to plan ahead, Wyeast is
still my choice of yeasts because of the wide variety and quality of yeasts.

David Houseman  



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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 11:25:41 EDT
From: Tombrau at aol.com
Subject: 10+g fermentors and stupid fl. beerlaw tricks

Hey Ya'll
(regional dialect purposely included)
 
Roger Ayotte mentions sanke fermenting. I have done this in the past and 
didn't like the  interior inaccessability after the ferment.One solution I 
found for that was to get an empty keg from a barkeep friend, ferment in it 
once, and trade it in for another fresh empty for the next batch. I used to 
laugh uncontrolably, thinking of the budmiloors keg washers watching that 
gunk come out of their kegs and the ensuing QC geeks investigation. Well, 
father time grew me a conscience and I have long given up this practice (saw 
some pretty nasty empties too). 
My new conscience friendly design works much better. I intend to cut a 12" 
hole in the top of a 1/2bbl sanke. Then take a 12" ss lid and mount ballock 
fittings in it. The "out" with a downtube for racking and the "in" for 
airlock and co2 to push the rack. To make a seal I will install a gasket 
(likely from a 5g bucket lid) and run a steel bar through the handles of the 
keg overtop the lid. The handle on the lid will make the bar fit tight enough 
for a 5psi rack. Ideally, increased vessel pressure would contribute to 
making a seal, ala cornie keg lid , but I surmise my design will be fine for 
the low pressure racks I will be using it for. This fermentor is my next 
project for Conway Garage and Ale Works. I can't wait to get rid of those 
damn carboys.

Mark Tumarkin mentions Florida's irrational bottle law making beer only 
available in 8,12,16 and 32oz bottles. No 22 oz or metric bottles for us. It 
seems, back in the '50s Florida (gov't) was locked up by one of the mega's 
(B). Another mega (M) was doing quite well with their 7oz bottles up north 
and planned to introduce them in Florida. Good ol' Boy meets Good ol' Boy and 
voila, stupid beer law.
We mounted quite a grassroots movement last year to change this archaic law 
but the politicians we needed were termed out and didn't need our votes any 
more. It seemed like they needed something else that the mega had a lot of 
and we had  very little of ($). But, who knows what goes on behind closed 
doors.

Thanx HBD for the fl/hbd section, we need all the help we can get.

>From the beer wasteland

Tom Moench


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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:46:43 +0200 
From: Weaver Joseph 39MDG/SGOAM <Joseph.Weaver at incirlik.af.mil>
Subject: Basic wine recipe?

Grapes here in Turkey are in season and are selling for 250,000 Turkish Lira
per Kilogram.  That's about 0.40 U.S. cents for 2.2 pounds.  Needless to
say, I have attempted a couple of batches of wine from memory.  I only made
one batch while back in the U.S.  Can't really say that I know what I am
doing.  Would someone give me a basic recipe for guidance until my library
arrives?  

I have access to 5 and 8 liter glass jars with tight fitting plastic lids
that will hold a fermentation lock nicely.  Also found 30 liter large
plastic carboys in a local market.  

Made my one and only batch here in Turkey from yellow cherries while they
were in season and it seems to taste OK.  I used 3 Kilos of cherries for a 4
Liter batch, the OG measured about 1034 after the 24 hr soak with Campden
Tablets, so I added 2 cups of sugar to bring the gravity up to 1082.  Also
added about a teaspoon of acid blend, about a teaspoon of yeast nutrients,
and a package of yeast (can't remember which kind).

I attempted 3 more batches last week.  One red, one white, and one melon.  I
used about 5 or 6 kilos for the white and the OG from the grape juice read
about 1084.  Added a little water to bring it up to volume which dropped the
OG to 1062 so I adjusted with sugar.  Then added nutrients act.  Did roughly
the same with the red.  The mellon OG was around 1034.

How many Kilos of grapes do I need per gallon of finished wine? 

How many Kilos of fruit in general per volume of wine?  (Figs are supposed
to be excellent!) 

When I remove the must, I assume that enough water gets added back to bring
it up to the original volume?

I have on hand acid blend, tannin, pectinase, yeast nutrients, and yeast.

Also, have seen rose petals in recipes.  Can get plenty here.  Fresh or dry?
How much?


J. TODD WEAVER, Capt,USAF,BSC,DVM
Chief, Public Health
39th MDOS Incirlik AB, Turkey 
DSN 676-8613
COM 011-90-322-316-8613 


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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 18:51:56 +0200 
From: Weaver Joseph 39MDG/SGOAM <Joseph.Weaver at incirlik.af.mil>
Subject: FW: What would you brew?



- -----Original Message-----
From: Weaver Joseph 39MDG/SGOAM 
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2000 7:22 PM
To: 'post@hbd.org'
Subject: What would you brew?



I've moved to Turkey for 2 years and my brewing equipment is due in any day
now.  I managed to mail over my left over ingredients and have on hand the
following items.  What would you brew if you had only enough base malt for
one batch, along with the assortment of odds and ends bellow?

8 to 10 # of 2 row Wisconsin Pale Ale Malted Barley
1/2 # 60 L Caramel Malt
1/2 # 80 L Caramel Malt
1 # chocolate Malt
1/4 # roast barley
1/2 # biscuit malt
1/2 # torrefied wheat
1/2 # malted wheat
1/2 # Munich malt
1 # Carapils

1 oz Kent Golding Hop Plugs
1 oz Willamette leaf hops
1 1/2 oz Cascade plugs
1 oz Fuggles plugs

2 packs of Munton's dry yeast

The water here is very hard and comes from a deep artesian well.  When I run
it through my faucet mounted Pure water purifier I notice a big difference
in taste.  Think it will be OK for brewing.

J. TODD WEAVER, Capt,USAF,BSC,DVM
Chief, Public Health
39th MDOS Incirlik AB, Turkey 
DSN 676-8613
COM 011-90-322-316-8613 


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Date: Sun, 3 Sep 2000 12:53:50 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: Tony reviews my book

Tony Clifton says of my "shameless self promotion":
>
> I ran to the book store and found your fricken' book.  One
> question though
> before I buy it.  On what page are the
> BEER recipes on?
>
> With all due respect sir, sorry, Papazian still blows you
> away. But thanks
> for the shameless self-promotion, though.  I'm sure somebody
> out there can
> make great beer with your book.
>

Exactly the response I was expecting, Tony. Let me remind you of your exact
words, cut and pasted from HBD #3412:

"Paul, I'm with you on that one.  Where's the fricken' books written by all
you Charlie bashers?  Come on, where are they, I'd like to go buy one!  Have
you written anything besides your inconsequential banter here on the Digest?
Crybabies all of 'ya!"

Notice that nowhere in there did you say the book HAD to be on brewing. So,
gotcha!

Here's the point, Tony. I think you're wrong in your assertion that only an
author has the right to criticize another author's works. Works of all media
are critically reviewed all the time by the great "unpublished". I don't
recall anyone criticizing Charlie, the person, or making any claims that he
hasn't been good for the hobby. Just that some of his advice may not still
be the best. That doesn't make us crybabies, just critical thinkers.
Published information should be able to be debated without being viewed as
an attack on the author. And I'm sure CP would agree with me on that.

BTW, you are wrong about my posting being self-promoting. The book was a
dud, and I haven't received a royalty check from Prentice-Hall in years. I
am simply one of the legion of authors who has failed in their attempt to
write a book that makes money. I hope that makes your day, Tony.

Brian



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