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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Cleaning a CF chiller... (Some Guy)
  How damp is damp? ("Drew Avis")
  re: Ptch Temp for lagers (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
  Honey question, new Wyeast tubes (Chris Cooper)
  Water Floridation ("Jeffry D Luck")
  Re: is Stevia safe, and / or good for brewers? (B.R. Rolya)
  RE: Zymurgy, AHA and its New Board ("Gary Glass")
  Sanke Mash Tun (Chad Petersen)
  Re: Cleaning Counterflow Chiller ("Daniel C Stedman")
  Separate/combined mash/lauter vessels ("Bret Morrow")
  FAQs and FUQs and Mythology ("Stephen Alexander")
  RE: infections and AHA ("Brian Lundeen")
  nonhoppy IPA (Frank Tutzauer)
  Brewer's Spurtle (Todd Goodman)
  chiller (gexpres)
  sake (Jim Liddil)
  Rice Beer ("Mike Pensinger")


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 06:11:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Some Guy <pbabcock at hbd.org>
Subject: Cleaning a CF chiller...

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

I clean my CF chiller simply enough - I run water through it after each
use. If you are using gravity as your means to get the wort through it,
you may need to make hose adapter for the input, but there has been no ill
affects from simply hooking the beast to the tap after each use and
blasting H2O through it. Prior to chilling a batch, I sanitize by allowing
it to recirculate the boiling wort for fifteen minutes prior to turning on
the water to chill it. Been using this beast since '94 or so, and have
kept beers chilled through it for up to six years will no or little sign
of infection.

As always, YMMV, but I'll not be worrying about my counterflow chiller
cleanliness...

- -- 
 -
See ya!

Pat Babcock in SE Michigan         pbabcock at hbd.org
Home Brew Digest Janitor           janitor@hbd.org
HBD Web Site                       http://hbd.org
The Home Brew Page                 http://hbd.org/pbabcock

"The monster's back, isn't it?" - Kim Babcock after I emerged
                                  from my yeast lab Saturday




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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:54:45 GMT
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: How damp is damp?

Thanks to all the responses to my question about where to store my grain.  I 
tried Brian's suggestion to tell SWMBO that "Hugh Baird" is a fancy British 
designer name, and hey look at all our new beanbag chairs, but to no avail.  
She caught on faster than a wombat on fire and insisted that the house 
remain a grain bag-free zone.

I've since settled on the basement, as the garage experiences extremes in 
heat and cold (although Alan McKay down the road assures me his grain is 
fine stored under these conditions).  As you recall, the basement is damp, 
but how damp is damp?  I bought a hygrometer from Home Hardware which tells 
me that yesterday the relative humidity outside was 52%, while in the 
basement it was 72% (at 58 degrees Fahrenheit).  I'm thinking of buying a 
dehumidifier in the spring to keep that number under 100%, but isn't 72% 
still pretty high?  What relative humidity should one aim for when storing 
grain?  This is of pressing concern since I'm picking up 5 new designer bean 
bag chairs this afternoon.

(Note: I'm following the advice of many to buy some of those inexpensive 
Rubbermaid stackable containers to store the grain in, but I've looked at 
the seal and I don't believe they're totally air-tight - perhaps bagging the 
grain in garbage bags would help?).

Thanks in advance for any advice!
Drew Avis in Merrickville Ontario
StrangeBrew Software: http://www.geocities.com/andrew_avis/sb/
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 14:47:15 GMT
From: mikey at swampgas.com (The Artist Formerly Known As Kap'n Salty)
Subject: re: Ptch Temp for lagers

"Jeff Lewis" <jlewis92 at alumni.princeton.edu> wrote:

>I've heard advice to pitch at warmer temps and then lower once it gets
>going.  In anticipation of someone suggesting this, may I throw in a
>question here too?  My question on this is that to the same degree that
>you've allowed the yeast to "get going" at these warmer temps, haven't you
>caused/encouraged the very fermentation by-products that the lower temp is
>supposed to eliminate/reduce?

I'd strongly suggest pitching at appropriate lager temps. I've done
this both ways, and get a much better (cleaner) beer pitching cool.
Some will pitch warm, and claim to get great results, but the
warm-pitched lagers I've had (both my own and other brewers) really
haven't been particularly lager-like -- although at least one example
turned out to be a pretty decent beer. Note that the results of
warm-pitching may vary by yeast strain.

In my own experience, it's best to pitch cool and with a large
starter. The colder the ferment at the beginning, the better off
you'll be. On the other hand, it's fine to let the temp rise as the
ferment progresses. I've actually just removed my fermentor from the
fridge when I'm down to about 2/3rds attenuation and let the beer rise
as high as 68F. This finishes the beer quickly and reduces diacetyl.
Although I've actually had mixed success with the diacetyl reduction
using this technique, the lager characteristics of the beer really
haven't been affected by this practice.

Pitching warm is basically done to allow you to use a smaller starter.
The idea is that the yeast will grow faster when the beer is still
warm, and quickly overwhelm any other organisms. But it is just this
massive growth phase that produces undesirable flavors (in lagers,
anyway). I believe one of the ideas behind pitching high is to
actually minimize the yeast growth phase and the accompanying ale-like
flavors.

Cheers -- M
**************************************
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:16:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>
Subject: Honey question, new Wyeast tubes

Greetings All! 

Yesterday I finally got around to a brew-day ! HUZZAH!
I made 10 gallons of cyser (it's apple cider time in Michigan 8^)
and needed to pick up some yeast for the batch.  My local homebrew
store had a fresh supply of the new Wyeast "pitchable" tubes so 
I decided to give them a try.  I used #1338 (I believe that is London
Ale) and started them just before starting the brew-day, by pitching
time there was activity but by the next morning the airlocks only showed
a slight positive pressure.  I am sure they will pick up today as the 
yeast had to adjust to a much heavier wort than the starter (starter was
1.040 and the cyser was around 1.098).  This is a double batch so I used
two of the tubes.  I will report back on the final results. 

I also racked a 1-year old mild mead into two 3-gallon carboys and added
additional honey and fruit to each (one got wild black rasberries and the 
other got elder berries).  They look great, but it will be a long time before
they are ready.

I also made a simple pale ale as my beer supply was starting to shrink (down
to my last couple of gallons!).  It was great to be back in the brewery again!

I have a quick question, what methodology do you follow to add honey to an 
already going batch? (add cold, heat and add, add a small bit each day, etc.)


Chris Cooper, Pine Haven Brewing (aka. Debbi's Kitchen) 
Commerce, Michigan    Member, Ann Arbor Brewer's Guild
(Approximately 25 miles from 0.0 Renerian)



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:10:47 -0600
From: "Jeffry D Luck" <Jeffry.D.Luck at aexp.com>
Subject: Water Floridation


Hi gang,

The county I'm in will vote is a couple weeks on whether to
add floride to the water system.  Anybody know what this is
going to do to my brew water?  Are there any brewers out
there who have weathered a change from 'basic' to floridated
water, or vise-versa?

Jeff Luck
Salt Lake City, UT   USA
Having a wonderful wine.  Wish you were beer.






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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:27:04 -0400
From: br at triagemusic.com (B.R. Rolya)
Subject: Re: is Stevia safe, and / or good for brewers?

Darrell writes:

>I recently was told of "stevia", a natural sweetner from S.
>America,...is this stuff ok for brewing?  Does is have any
>mono, or other saccharides that can be broken down by
>yeasties, or can it be used (safely?) to increase residual
>sweetness in brews?

A brewery in Belgium, De Proef, uses stevia in a beer they make for
diabetics.  It most definitely increases sweetness!  (It was a little too
sweet for my palate, but interesting nonetheless.  It also had an odd,
undefinable flavor that I can only compare to the bite that one gets out of
diet sodas.)  As I had never heard of the plant before and was not
interested in making beer with stevia, I didn't ask many questions as to
how it was used in the brewing session.  I do know that they used dried
stevia and needed to use a lot of it in order to get the requisite
sweetness (the beer was a tripel-style).  I do recall that they said that
the beer has no residual sugars and has an attenuation of 102%!

This spring, for the first time, I noticed stevia seeds available in my
garden catalogues.  The plant itself looks resembles leafy kale or other
large greens when growing.

- ---------

Maybe it's a regional thing, but wanker is common in the northeastern US...



 - BR Rolya
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
New York
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 11:38:41 -0600
From: "Gary Glass" <gary at aob.org>
Subject: RE: Zymurgy, AHA and its New Board

"FatCat" Writes:

>>AHA.  Hummm...  Ever tried to find out anything on the AHA site?
This day I tried to find a list of the club-only brews.  The
discussion of trhe subject was last updated in March 2000,
at the end of this years competitions.  Is there a list of
styles for this year?  I also wanted information on starting a
club.  Great info telling you the advantages of a club, how to
go non-profit, how to be appropriately touchy-feely
adayadayada...but nowhere could I find a simple list saying
"do this dummy, send us your $X, and we will give you..."

I remember a year or so ago, it seems some then 'outsider' but
 now newly elected members of the AHA Board were demanding
detailed info on AHA 'personal data' like salaries, suggesting
malfeasance etc.  Let's see what is forthcoming.  I wonder if
their skin will be as thick as the Board's was when they were
firing the barbs (heeheehee), we've seen how some react to minor
criticism<<

FatCat,

The Club-Only Competition pages can be found at:
http://www.beertown.org/AHA/clubcomp.htm.  The COC schedule found here
includes styles for Club-Only Competitions through December of 2001.  You
can get to the club-only pages from the AHA homepage
(http://www.beertown.org/AHA/homebrewing.htm) either by clicking on the
Homebrew Clubs link or the Sanctioned Competition Program link.  Both the
Clubs page and the SCP page have links to the Club-Only Competition pages.
I honestly have no idea what you were looking at that hasn't been updated
since March 2000, could you provide me with the URL and/or let me know how
you got there?  I will have it fixed ASAP.  If anyone ever comes across
outdated pages or broken links on the www.beertown.org site, please let us
know.

We do not have an all-in-one starter kit for a new homebrew clubs, although
I think the information on the website should give you a good starting
point.  How one goes about starting a club will vary depending on the local
situation.  We are however, always willing to provide advice to anyone who
asks.  You can call the AHA toll free at 1-888-U-CAN-BREW (1-888-822-6273)
or send an email to me at gary at aob.org or AHA Director Paul Gatza at
paul at aob.org.  You might also try contacting one of the AHA Board of
Advisors members who might be more familiar with your area.  You can find
the email addresses for all of the AHA BOA members on the AHA Board and
Bylaws page of the website: http://www.beertown.org/AHA/ahabylaws.htm.  You
can also find the minutes to the AHA BOA meetings which took place at the
National Homebrewers Conference in Michigan last June on the AHA Board and
Bylaws page.

AHA financial information was posted on page 5 of the September/October
issue of Zymurgy.

We are always looking for ways to improve the AHA and we heartily encourage
AHA members to share their ideas with us because the members are the AHA!
So please feel free to contact the Board of Advisor Members, Paul Gatza, or
me.

Cheers!
Gary Glass
- -------------------------
Gary Glass, Administrator
American Homebrewers Association
Voice: (303) 447-0816 x 121
Fax: (303) 447-2825
Email: gary at aob.org
Web: http://www.beertown.org



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:52:08 -0700
From: Chad Petersen <Chad.Petersen at wwu.edu>
Subject: Sanke Mash Tun

This is an addendum to the man describing his sanke mash tun.  The best one
I have seen was one where they cut out the bottom instead of the top.  Weld
a cap on the spear end after removing the spear of course, and tap a hole
through the side of the neck and run a piece of .5" stainless pipe through a
handle hole into a ball valve.  From the open end (bottom) you go down and
cut a small notch in the hole at the bottom as a key to stick your bit of
barstock through and lock the stainless screen into place with the aid of a
stainless bolt witha wing nut on the end.  After your session dump the
grain, reach in and twist the locking screw and the screen and all just pops
out.  Quite slick really...
Father Chad


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:12:18 -0500
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning Counterflow Chiller

I was having some problems myself before using the following cleaning regiment:

Right after I complete my brewing, I pump a PBW/hot water solution through all
of my hoses and my chiller for 15 minutes, then give it an hour or so soak while
cleaning up other stuff.

Before using my chiller on brew day, I boil it for 15 minutes in my hot liquor
tank/fermenter (since I am already sanitizing my fermenter by boiling water in
it), and then hook up my chiller to the output of the hot liquor tank and drop
all of the hot water through it as a final rinse before using it to chill. I
happen to have an all-copper chiller - you probably wouldn't want to boil the
garden-hose variety for fear of damaging the hose. My beers have been much
cleaner ever since making this change and starting to carbon filter all of my
brewing water.

I know that a lot of people don't have a setup that would enable them to do the
above. At the very least you could make up some cleaner in your boil kettle
immediately after chilling your wort and drop that through your chiller to clean
it before storage. The first time that I ran PBW through my chiller (after
having used it for a few batches without cleaning it with PBW) I had some pretty
nasty looking stuff come out of it, so you will probably want to give it a long
soak the first time. Then  on brew day you could make up a 12.5 ppm iodopher
solution and fill your chiller with that for 20 minutes before running your hot
wort through it, making sure that the chiller is completely full of cleaner
without any air pockets by filling it from the bottom up...

Good luck!

Dan in Minnetonka




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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:26:44 GMT
From: "Bret Morrow" <bretmorrow at hotmail.com>
Subject: Separate/combined mash/lauter vessels

Greetings,

I was reading Ant. Hayes & Chris Farley's commments on separate Vs. combined 
mash and lauter vessels.  I think there is a "best of both worlds" solution. 
  I use a copper manifold that gets placed into the mash vessel (picnic 
cooler) after the mash is over.  The manifold drains through a rigid copper 
line that goes up over top of the side of the picnic cooler.  It does 
require a siphon to start removing the wort out of the mash tun, but there 
is no concern when mashing in, because the manifold is not present then.  It 
works for me.

Cheers,

Bret Morrow
Hamden, CT
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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:18:48 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: FAQs and FUQs and Mythology

Dan Listerman says ...

>It has been my experiance that  "newbe all grainer + poor crush = poor
>extraction."

Good call Dan, another common newbie extraction problem.
Please add this to the FAQ     ;^)

===
Graham Sanders, Brian Lundeen, Keith Busby, Petr Otahal
all remark about honey-like sweet flavors that appear in beers.
This might be considered a frequently unanswered question,
except that =S(pencer) pointed to one source -

2-3 pentane-dione (acetyl-proprionyl) is a di-carbonyl analog of
diacetyl (2,3-butane-dione).  Just as diacetyl is formed from
pyruvate+acetaldehye -> acetolactate -> diacetyl.  For
2,3pentane-dione there is an additional step where oxobutarate
combines with an intermediate to form aceto-hydroxy butarate
(instead of acetolactate). 2,3PD is also produced in small
quantities and reduced by yeast late in the fermentation
(diacetyl rest).

Other honeylike aromas can appear from  ethyl-(E)-cinnamate,
phenethyl acetate, cinnamic acid and 2-phenylethanol.

The phelylethanol is known to appear in beer at 20-60ppm, and
phenethyl acetate is it's ester.   ethyl-cinnamate (if it appears in
beer at all) has a less obvious origin.  Cinnamic acid is a
significant component of malt phenolics of malt.

I also mentioned that there are many reports of overly-sweet
staling aromas developing (particularly in ales).  Honey-like,
molasses-like and caramel are all used descriptively. I don't
know enough about the source but this form of staling is
increased with post fermentation oxygen inclusion and
shows a rather constant increase during aging.

Not an answer but perhaps a beginning.
===


Dave Howell asks ...

>A question for those who 'spurment (Pivos, et. al):  has anyone done single
>vs. double decoctions?  This was a first of any kind of decoction for me
 ...
>Which of the two (three for PU)
>decoctions actually adds the most character and flavor to the finished
>product?  Should I do one preferentially over another?

I've gotta say it (again) the idea that decoction adds some amazing
new bold character to mediocre lager is an HB myth.  If your lagers
are anything short of consistently amazing then there are easier ways
to improve as much without doubling your brew day.   That the
impact is subtle and debatable can be seen in Louis Bonham's
'RIMS vs Decoction' article in BT a couple years back.

I've compared 1/2/3 decoction mashes.  Three seems a waste of time.
You get most of the impact from a single decoction performed after
simple sugars have formed (fm 60C to 72C for example). The method
for other boosts makes little difference.  That said I'd advise keeping the
decoction boil time about constant regardless of the number of decocts.
What little magic comes from decoction seems to come from the thick
sweet boil.

 -S







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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:52:27 -0500
From: "Brian Lundeen" <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca>
Subject: RE: infections and AHA

My brewclub mate Ralph Link writes:

> Our last two batches of all grain have developed an infection.

Ralph, I'll talk to you at the upcoming club meeting but the cause of your
infections seems obvious: brewing invitations! Think about it, first me,
then Don, and both those batches have gone bad. Obviously the other members
of the brew club are upsetting the natural balance that exists at your
place. Our karmas are creating super bugs that sanitizers can't kill!
Perhaps we shouldn't have the upcoming meeting at your place. The half-life
of the karmic imbalance created by that many foreign bodies could leave your
place unbrewable for years! ;-)

Fatcat bemoans the state of the AHA web site with:

>
> AHA.  Hummm...  Ever tried to find out anything on the AHA site?
> This day I tried to find a list of the club-only brews.  The
> discussion of trhe subject was last updated in March 2000,
> at the end of this years competitions.  Is there a list of
> styles for this year?

To answer your questions, yes and yes. The links are there but here's a
shortcut. The club-only competition list is at:

 http://www.beertown.org/AHA/1999_aha_coc.htm

  I also wanted information on starting a
> club.  Great info telling you the advantages of a club, how to
> go non-profit, how to be appropriately touchy-feely
> adayadayada...but nowhere could I find a simple list saying
> "do this dummy, send us your $X, and we will give you..."

I just started a homebrew club and so far things have worked out pretty
well. I took the approach that the best place to look for homebrewers is in
the homebrew supply shops. I got a couple of GOOD shops onside, gave them my
contact sheet, and they passed the word around to their regular customers
that they thought would fit in to the club environment.

The key is the willingness to drive this until it becomes a self-sustaining
entity. Have a clear idea of what you want this club to be, and detail that
in your contact sheet, so at least you are starting with like-minded people.
Get people to contact you through the homebrew shop, setup an initial
meeting somewhere (I just had the guys over to my place), and hope you find
a few people that are willing to contribute to the organization and running
of the club. If the chemistry is there, it should fly. If not, perhaps it
wasn't meant to be.

Cheers,
Brian



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:42:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Frank Tutzauer <comfrank at acsu.buffalo.edu>
Subject: nonhoppy IPA

Cass has an IPA recipe:

> I brewed a 5 gallon
> batch of beer that was supposed to be an IPA.  I used 1 can amber and 1
> can light extract.  I added (steeped) 1 lb.  crystal 20 and 3/4 lb
> specialroast.
> Hops:Full boil  (1 hour)1oz Chinook  at  12% 1oz Galena  at  11.7%
> Half Boil (1/2 hour)1 oz MT. Hood   at  4.1%
> Final 10 minutes (flavor? /aroma?) 2oz SAAZ   at  3.6%

> Is this just not enough hops?   this does not taste very bitter to me.

Yow, I think this should be plenty bitter.  If you do a partial boil,
you'll lose a little efficiency, but geez louise you've got almost 24 AAUs
of bittering hops.  This ought to pucker your mouth.

> should I add more hops at the end of the boil?

It won't affect your bitterness.

> OK... now I have another question.  I thought that the high alpha hops
> would give me higher bitterness.  they were in for an hour so I was
> under the impression that would give me good utilization of the acid. 

They should.  If your beer really is sweet, I would suspect something like
the package was mislabeled, or you thought you added the hops when you
really forgot.

>I also believe
> hops added at the end of the boil do not need to be high alpha because
> most
> of the acid is not utilized anyway.  

You don't get much bitterness from late additions so the alpha is not
critial.  Choose on the basis of taste.

- --frank




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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:22:00 -0400
From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net>
Subject: Brewer's Spurtle

I just wanted to say that I received a Brewer's Spurtle from
SABCO and it is truly a thing of beauty!

It's a short canoe paddle with elongated holes in the paddle part.
Made out of maple and finished beautifully.

I'm sure some people out there could make one themselves, but if
you're not a woodworker (or lazy like me) then this is a nice
strong paddle for stirring the mash.

I'd been looking for a good mash paddle off and on and am real
pleased with this one.

No affiliation with SABCO (aside from happily using a mash/boil
kettle for a few years and just ordering a couple more recently).

Todd

Brewing in Westford, MA


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 10:03:21 -0600
From: gexpres at pvnet.com.mx (gexpres)
Subject: chiller

Do you know if there is any conection with the soldering in my chiller =
and contaminated wort? Because of my layout, the chiller has several =
soldered joints (tin lead soldering) and I suspect this could be the =
answer. I have sanitized my chiller with every procedure available =
 -chlorine, iodofor- and keep brewing foul vinegar instead. Any =
suggestions?

Diego Lemionet



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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:56:06 -0400
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at vms.arizona.edu>
Subject: sake

For those who don't get the sake digest, I'd thought I would let you know
that you can now buy highly polished rice and real sake koji from
Steinbarts.  The rice and koji come form Momokawa.  also fred eckhardt has
a new rvised recipe available.  no affiliation, no freebies, just thought
this info might be helpful.

Jim Liddil
Sake Digest Moderator


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Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:55:31 -0400
From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr at verizon.net>
Subject: Rice Beer

Well I am going to embark on the quest for a rice beer that is drinkable.
My plan involves some 6 row and some rice and some mild hopping levels.

What do you all think about using the boiled rice to bring the mash to
saccarification temps?  I was planning to dough in at about 122 dF and let
thet rest for 20 minutes and add the hot rice to bring the mash to 149 dF or
so.  I have to work out the exect temps to hit my marks but had a couple
questions, the first being has anyone else done this.

The second has to do with the rice.  Should I run it through my mill or
leave it whole.  Also should I boil some grain with it?  I seem to remember
reading something like that in cereal mashes.

Thanks in advance for any hints and tips you may have,

Mike Pensinger
beermkr at verizon.net

Mikes Homebrewery
"Who needs propane when you have a spare dryer outlet"
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~eermkr



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---