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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Stuck Stout (Petr Otahal)
  Malto-dextrin and amylase enzyme (Jacob Jacobsen)
  Aireation with Venturi tube ("Jens P. Maudal")
  Fermenting in Plastic (Ant Hayes)
  Bob's Missed Expectations ("Houseman, David L")
  re: no kraeusen ("Kensler, Paul")
  Re: Frozen Lager? (Jeff Renner)
  Keg cutting ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Re: Frozen Lagers (John Palmer)
  Ahhh, Ambrosia! (Smith Asylum)
  Re: Cleaning CF Chillers ("Martin Brungard")
  Re: Cleaning CF Chillers (Demonick)
  Where to get PBW (Danny Breidenbach)
  chiller (Matt Marino)
  SG to Alcohol (Jeff Lutes)
  Stupid Keg Tricks... ( Dmitry Vosky )
  New club in Adelaide ("Dave Edwards")
  Gleanings from the field on ready to pitch yeasts ("Dan Diana")


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:11:29 +1100
From: Petr Otahal <potahal at utas.edu.au>
Subject: Stuck Stout

Got a bit of problem.

I brewed the following  extract recipe about 12 days ago.

2kg light DME
200g wheat DME
300g Roasted Barley
300g Dextrose
4 tsp CaCO3 (is this too much)
40g (8.9%AAU) NZ Hallertauer Aroms  whole hops (60min boil)

OG: 1.047
Vol: 20L

I steeped the cracked roasted barley in 10L of water in a grain bag for
half an hour, then took it out and added my extracts, dextrose and CaCO3.
I have very soft water with low alkalinity so I didn't think 4 tsp was too
much.

Once boiliing added my hops and boiled for an hour.  Cooled in laundry tub
with fairly frequent water changes.  Got it down to 25C in about 20
minutes. Added this to another 10L of cold water and mixed thoroughly and
whipped a bit of air into it with my brew spoon. 

I then poured the whole lot onto the yeast cake of Wyeast British 1098,
which had just finished fermenting an 1.041 OG batch of Pale Ale, and
proceded to bottle the Pale Ale.

As can be expected it took off like a rocket and was fermenting strongly
within a couple of hours.

The gravity was 1.020 two days later.

Four days after pitching I took another reading expecting it to be finished
and it was at 1.018.  The temperature was 16C which was bad because it
meant that something was wrong with my heater.  I took it inside to warm
up.  I slowly warmed it to 20C in the bath tub thinking it was too cold.

8 days after pitching and the gravity hadn't moved so I rehydrated some
Danstar Notingham yeast and pitched it.

I took a reading today (12 days after pitching) and it is only at 1.017.
The beer is not as dark as I expected, if fact it looks like liquid
chocolate.  It doesn't have that roasted taste I expected, and in fact is
fairly sweetish, but it doesn't have any off flavours.  I doesn't look like
the yeast has settled out very much either.

Does anyone have any ideas as to what happened to my stout???

Cheers
Pete

By the way the Pale Ale tastes alright



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Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 21:23:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Jacob Jacobsen <beermakerdk at yahoo.com>
Subject: Malto-dextrin and amylase enzyme

Can anyone help me with guidelines on the use of
malto-dextrin (for mouthfeel) and amylase enzyme (for
fermentability)?  I understand in layman's terms how
these work but am unable to determine the quantity one
adds to a recipe.

Thanks, 

Jake

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:49:21 +0100
From: "Jens P. Maudal" <Jens.maudal at c2i.net>
Subject: Aireation with Venturi tube

I was wondering if anybody have contsructed a "Venturi tube"
for adding air to the vort.
I don't know an awful lot about it but what i do know is that in
simple words it is a small piece of tube that is used for inline
aireation and fitted to the beerline between the chiller and the
fermenter. It is constructed in such a way that it reduces the 
diameter of the beerline so as to cause an increased vort speed,
here the air is pumped in (or by vacum) to the vort sream with
a following sudden increase of line diameter. This is supposed to 
cause a violent turbulance and consequently mix the air/vort.
Is this system of any use and will it perform almost as well
as an air stone, have anybody tried it?
SKAAL!
Jens

Jens P. Maudal jens.maudal at c2i.net
Greetings from "BottomsUp Brewery"
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Visit my humble RIMS and homebrew page: 
http://home.c2i.net/bottomsup/index.htm

Norbrygg bryggeside: http://www.norbrygg.com
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 12:38:39 +0200
From: Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za>
Subject: Fermenting in Plastic

Clifton Moore stated,

"I have never understood how people can get away with fermenting in 
plastic.  Under magnification the surface looks like a pile of hay."

Having fermented in plastic since mid 1988, my answer is "bleach is cheap".
Between batches, my fermenter sits full to the brim with a strong bleach
solution.

Ant Hayes
Gauteng; South Africa


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:59:56 -0500
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Bob's Missed Expectations

It's too bad that Bob the beer man spent 10 days in Scotland and really only
enjoyed the Irish and English beers.  Perhaps it was luck in not finding the
beers of his expectations.  Rather it was probably the expectations
themselves, for as Bob states "lighter character, and mouth feel than I
supposed they would have. The gravity was lighter, and by and large there
was little hop character at all. The bitters I tasted were bitter only in
comparison to the other ales. In other words not that dry or bitter. There
was no significant hop nose." That pretty much sums up Scottish Ales and
would be what I'd expect.  The challenge is can he take what he learned
about the Scottish Ale styles and replicate them authentically here?

Dave Houseman 



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 09:14:34 -0500
From: "Kensler, Paul" <Paul.Kensler at Cyberstar.com>
Subject: re: no kraeusen

"There is no kraeusen on the surface of the fermenting wort.  <snip> -
everything looks entirely normal yet there is only a thin layer 1/4-1/2" of
large bubbled foam on the surface.  Has anyone else seen this?"

I experienced this once, on a Bavarian wheat beer.  I attributed the problem
to the fact that I screwed up the mash, and it spent WAY too much time
<150F.  The beer turned out very thin and very attenuated - it never could
hold any sort of a head, even thought it was >50% wheat and highly
carbonated.  Think alcoholic wheat pop.  I'm sure the extended time at lower
temperatures over-did proteinase and amylase reactions, leaving nothing to
support a kraeusen or head in the glass.

I'd be curious to hear how your oatmeal stout turns out, and how the mash
went.


Hope this helps,

Paul Kensler
Gaithersburg, MD


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:04:31 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Frozen Lager?

Jim <Hop_Head at webtv.net> is worried
Subject: Frozen Lager?

>I just checked my lager and would you believe it? It was partially
>frozen! Will this hurt it? Do I need to do anything to fix it (Besides
>raise the temp.)?

It won't hurt a thing.  As a matter of fact, it might even help it. 
See the archives for George Fix's postings several years ago on ice 
beer.

Jeff
- -- 
 -=-=-=-=-
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:04:47 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Keg cutting

Rich wrote:

>With Sabco http//:www.kegs.com selling Kegs with perfect tops and drains 
>professionally welded, 
>cleaned and polished for only $121 US. I see no reason to search down clean

>kegs, buy, rent, beg, 
>or steal the tools to hack at the stainless steel and try to drill and weld
a 
>drain coupling. 
>I do not know about the rest of you, but even with finding cheap kegs and 
>tools, the time factor makes 
>the few extra bucks worth the professional job. 

Don't get me wrong - Sabco makes some nice stuff.  But money doesn't grow on
trees.  I'm just starting on a HERMS project.  As I'll be sinking enough
money into this project overall, I'd like to save a few $$$ along the way.
~$120/keg is not bad considering what you'll invest (time & money-wise)
after buying a keg, destroying a few grinding disks or metal blades, hiring
a welder or welding it yourself.  But if you need three of them (for a HERMS
or RIMS), it's at least $360.  I can probably scrounge my 3 kegs and have
'em prepared by a welder for the cost of 1 SABCO keg.

I also think it's a matter of pride.  I can get a while RIMS or HERMS system
with all the bells & whistles delivered to my home for something like $1500
 - but I can't say that I made it.  Hours on end of sweatin', cussin',
spittin' and yes, sometimes bleedin' will give you that feeling of personal
satifaction that can't be had any other way.

So I'd say that it's really what the brewer wants out of their hobby. Some
can't see why you'd want to do it yourself.  Others can see why you'd give
up on the opportunity.  I'm of the latter opinion.


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 08:22:28 -0800
From: John Palmer <jjpalmer at gte.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen Lagers

Jim mentions that his lager has partially frozen and wonders if it creates 
any problems.

Yes, and no. The yeast don't like being partially frozen. So, if you plan 
to prime and bottle you will probably have to use some fresh yeast as well.
If you are going to force carbonate then it is not a problem. How far into 
the lagering cycle were you? Do you think you have achieved the majority of 
your attentuation? If not, you may need to warm it up to normal lagering 
temp and add your fresh yeast now. Keep in mind that you will need to 
attemperate them to that temperature first or they will just go dormant and 
not do anything.
Hope this helps,
John
- --
John Palmer
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy
http://www.realbeer.com/jjpalmer
How To Brew - the online book
http://www.howtobrew.com



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 10:04:09 -0700
From: Smith Asylum <smithly at neta.com>
Subject: Ahhh, Ambrosia!

Well, I put a couple of the Belgium Wits on ice last night and I was
truly amazed at the results of my efforts a month ago.  It's a little
too fizzy if opened cold and doesn't come to full flavor until temp
reaches about 50 deg, but oh, great head retention, mellow and lightly
spiced with the body approaching an all-grain.  Jeff Haines of Brewers
Connection was right.  "The best brew you'll ever taste is the one you
brew yourself."  Or something like that.
Threw together a Hefe-Weizen last night and used my newly fabricated
counter-flow wort chiller.  Worked like a champ!  212 to 80 in 3/5 of a
seconds (you'd have to be an old Jefferson Airplane fan to recognize
that). 
I do have to work on the co-ordination of flow from brew pot to chiller
to carboy.  Siphoning is a big hassle for me.  I think I'll try and
arrange a gravity feed setup to expedite the transfer and chill process.
Many thanks and much credit to Andrew Roberts of,
http://www.trends.net/~aroberts/brewery/chiller.html for his clear and
humorous instructions on the fab of the chiller.
I can't wait to do it again!

Lee Smith
Amateur Brewing
Chandler, AZ


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 13:27:46 EST
From: "Martin Brungard" <mabrungard at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning CF Chillers

Domenick had a good comment regarding sanitizing with bleach, Although I 
think that some of his comments may be troublesome to some brewers. He keeps 
a bleach solution in some of his equipment for long periods of time.

In some parts of the world, water hardness may make that habit more of a 
problem than a solution. Here's the reason why.

A bleach solution raises the pH of the water. Minerals in the water are then 
more likely to precipitate out of the solution and deposit themselves as 
crystal growths on surfaces in the equipment. We don't need anymore hiding 
places for critters. I have found that rinsing out the equipment with water 
does not remove the crystals. A mild acid solution like distilled vinegar 
can be used to dissolve the crystals in that case.

If you're lucky, your water supply will allow you to get away with storing 
your equipment full of bleach solution. If not, you'll get those pesky 
crystal growths. I prefer to limit my bleach solution contact time to a day 
or so to reduce this tendency with the moderately hard (140ppm as 
CaCO3)water I have in Tallahassee.

On this same equipment cleaning subject, I echo others who use PBW to clean 
their equipment. I have one caution, I use PBW in my RIMS and recirculate 
while heating the solution. One time, I let the system run for a while and 
let the solution temp get up to 160F. There was a definite darkening of the 
solution that wasn't present when the solution was around 140F. I can only 
assume that getting the solution this hot is not a good idea. I don't exceed 
140F anymore. Does anyone have a comment on what might have happened to 
darken the solution. By the way, my RIMS piping is all copper. Yes, my 
piping was very clean after that overheating event. Does PBW become more 
aggressive at high temp?

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL

"Meandering to a different drummer"


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 11:19:48 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: Cleaning CF Chillers

On Mon, 30 Oct 2000, Martin Brungard wrote:
>Domenick had a good comment regarding sanitizing with bleach, Although I 
>think that some of his comments may be troublesome to some brewers. He keeps 
>a bleach solution in some of his equipment for long periods of time.
>
>In some parts of the world, water hardness may make that habit more of a 
>problem than a solution. Here's the reason why.
> ...<snip - lots of good information>

Indeed, Seattle city water is nearly distilled.  If you live in 
hard water country take Martin's advice to heart. 

Alkalinity (as CaCO3)         13.0  mg/L
Calcium (as CaCO3)            10.4
Hardness (as CaCO3)           11.7
Magnesium                      0.34
Sodium                         5.47
Chloride                       3.7

Domenick Venezia
Seattle, WA




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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:34:53 -0500
From: Danny Breidenbach <dbreiden at math.purdue.edu>
Subject: Where to get PBW

Hi all,

I'm thinking I want to clean my chiller (a pseudo-counterflow model)
with PBW, since someone recently reported getting all kinds of slime out
of a chiller using it.  Maybe that's the problem with my recent brews.

Where does one get PBW?  I'm supply shop challenged, and Northern Brewer
doesn't show it in their catalog.  Unless PBW goes by another name,
perhaps?

- --Danny in West Lafayette, Indiana.  Go Boilers, indeed.



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:42:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Matt Marino <mattncherie at juno.com>
Subject: chiller

Im thinking about building a new immersion chiller and am wondering if
anyone has had any luck designing a no-stir im.  Ive seen them advertised,
usually all the coils are at the top and convection does the work.  Has
anyone designed one that actualy works without having to stir.  I love
immersion chillers but hate having to stir the whole time. I also used an
Easymasher for the first time today and it worked great! Thanks Jack.
MADMAN





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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:12:46 -0600 (CST)
From: Jeff Lutes <jlutes at osprey.net>
Subject: SG to Alcohol

Brewers,

I am looking for a formula that will use the starting and ending gravity of a 
brew and find the estimated potential alcohol content.  I'm sure it's out there 
somewhere, but I can't find it!

TIA

Gemus Brauen Haus




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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 16:46:03 -0800 (PST)
From: dmitry at quickturn.com ( Dmitry Vosky )
Subject: Stupid Keg Tricks...

I was preparing two stainless 5 gallon kegs two weeks ago, and
after thoroughly cleaning with TSP solution and rinsing clean,
added a cup of baking soda to each keg full of clean tap water.
The intention was to leave this overnight to remove odors from
prior contents.  The kegging session was postponed, and two weeks 
passed before I finally had a chance to attend to these kegs.
Rinsing the kegs I discovered the insides were covered with a
layer of sand-like crystals, like sand paper with mini
stalectites.  These crystals are bonded to the stainless 
surface, but do come off when scratched with a finger nail.
Has anyone out there ever ran across anything like this, in
brewing context; an explanation or a possible fix would be
highly appreciated.  It would be nice to harness chemistry
to remove these crystals, although I'm not above scrubing:
it wouldn't be homebrewing with out it.

- --Dmitry, Spilanking Keg Brewery (was The Rusty Fridge Brewery)


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Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 13:20:37 +1030
From: "Dave Edwards" <eddiedb at senet.com.au>
Subject: New club in Adelaide

G'day,

 Just a notice to any brewers in the northern suburbs of Adelaide (I live in
Modbury, so anywhere from Campbelltown to Salisbury really), I am looking at
starting a club and would like to know if anyone is interested. Novice or
experienced, it doesn't matter.

Cheers,
Dave.







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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 21:02:40 -0800
From: "Dan Diana" <dands at ftconnect.com>
Subject: Gleanings from the field on ready to pitch yeasts

Hi,
    I just wanted to provide an update from the field on my recent
experiences with two ready to pitch liquid yeast cultures.
    In the first case, I had a White Labs WLP830 culture that was well
within its Best Before date of 11/15/00. Given how close I was to this date,
I chose to start the culture in 500g of a 1050 OG wort from a previous batch
that I brewed. In short, the culture was dead even after two days of stand
time at room temperature. Has anyone else had this type of issue? I doubt it
was a procedural issue as this starter technique has been successful on
about 20+ brews.
    Since I wanted to brew, I reformulated the recipe and fell back to a
Wyeast pitchable tube of 1272 American Ale II. With the wort cooled to 72
degrees, I directly pitched the contents of the tube into a 1051 OG wort. It
has taken about 41 hours to reach low krausen and cover the wort surface
with a foam head. The culture was manufactured on 8/16/00 and I pitched
10/29/00 (75 days). This was within the four months after manufacture date
that Wyeast quotes an ale culture should be viable.
    Does anyone have any data on how much additional lag time you incur as
these ready to pitch yeasts age? These excess lag times make me nervous as
they are prime times for infection.
    My take away learning from this experience is that these ready to pitch
liquid yeast cultures reduce the up front time but do not offer the peace of
mind that I get from an active starter.

Dan



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