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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Perforated Stainless Sheet Search Results ("Dave Howell")
  Re: Repitching (Phil Plumbo)
  storage time (marsh and val)
  re:Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms ("Lee, Brian")
  mystery ingredients ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  hop and extract amounts ("Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies")
  Morland Yeast & slurry pitching (Brad McMahon)
  Supplication And Self Serving Crap ("Phil & Jill Yates")
  Content and lactic acid ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  Jacksonville/Key West  FL good beer request ("Spinelli, Mike")
  piping for burners ("Stephen Lane")
  Beer will not clear ("Hardter")
  Wort Viscosity (Martin_Brungard)
  To De or Not to De (Decoction that is) (cmmundt)
  Educational and Cultural Opportunity (Chris Swersey)
  Moldy Cheese ("Jack Schmidling")


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Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 23:01:45 -0700
From: "Dave Howell" <djhowell at uswest.net>
Subject: Perforated Stainless Sheet Search Results


All:


About two weeks ago I had posted, asking where I could find small quantities
of perforated stainless for false bottoms, hopbacks, etc.

The results, with subjective measures (based on quantitative cost analysis I
can't put my hand on just now) are below.

Note, I have No Affiliation, Yadda, Yadda (NAYY) with any of the
organizations or concerns below.  Dollar amounts in $US.


Small Parts (www.smallparts.com), somewhere in Florida:
    moderately expensive by square foot (~$36),
    will cut small quantities, will ship.
    Had 304, 316 stainless, hole patterns seemed to be metric
    best sounding pattern was 33 holes/in sq, 40% metal.

McNichols (www.micnichols.com), nationwide, in major cities:
    cheapest by square foot (~$8), but had to buy 3'x8' or larger
    sheet.  Had 304, 316, phosphor alloys.  Most 'standard' hole
    patterns and guages

McMaster-Carr (www.mcmaster.com), somewhere in Chicagoland:
    had inexpensive by square foot (~$10-30), could only order
    3'x3'4" sheets, only three types by the linear foot ($33-44/lf 2'
    wide), had 304, 316, and standard hole patterns.

Metal Supermarket (www.metalsupermarket.com), nationwide, in
some cities:
    had low-to-moderate by square foot (~$20), could order by size,
    had many types of stainless and hole patterns.

One I didn't try online (but just found while trying to re-find the url for
the Metal Supermarket) was MetalsDepot.Com.

I also tried local steel suppliers.  They all said they could get what I
wanted, but I had to buy by the sheet (meaning 3'x8' or 4'x10').  This can
work if several people in a club are buying together, but not for the
average individual.

Also, I tried local welders, hoping to find one with some scrap or who had
to buy a whole sheet once.  No dice:  they all wanted me to buy the large
sheet from the distributor first (or have them do it, but me pay for it).

I bought from Metal Supermarket, in Albuquerque, where I was for
Thanksgiving last week.  I bought a 2'x1' rectangle of 1/8" holes on 3/16"
centers, 20 ga, 304 stainless with a #2B finish, for $39.99.  Not an awful
lot cheaper than, say, a Stainless in Seattle or PBS bottom, but one I can
shape and fit, plus I have enough leftover for the boiler bottom (a 9"
plate) and a hopback cage, after I make my 12" convex parabolic false bottom
for my converted Sanke (hint:  it's the same shape/curvature as the top of
the barrel that I cut out of the keg...).

I'll let the collective know how the false bottom(s) turn(s) out after I fab
it next weekend.

The thought occurs to me that this post must be driving those who use the
metric system nuts.



Dave Howell
In the flat, hot, part of Arizona, a place with more contrasts than anywhere
else in the world, very far from the center of the brewing universe.



Costello: You know I'm a catcher too.
Abbott: So they tell me.
Costello: I get behind the plate to do some fancy catching, Tomorrow's
pitching on my team and a heavy hitter gets up. Now the heavy hitter bunts
the ball. When he bunts the ball, me, being a good catcher, I'm gonna throw
the guy out at first. So I pick up the ball and throw it to who?
Abbott: Now that's the first thing you've said right.

Costello: I don't even know what I'm talking about!




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:00:07 -0600
From: psp at printwareinc.com (Phil Plumbo)
Subject: Re: Repitching

Thom Smit asks:

>I then made a batch (grain+extract) of Caledonian 80/- which was pitched
>onto the cake from the Stout...the Caledonian took of like a rocket, 
>the smallish yeast head actually pulsing and attenuated from 1048 to 
>1012 in the space of one day and 2 nights. Is that typical when 
>pitching onto a cake from a previous brew?

I started a 5 USGal Mild last Sunday (1.033 OG) on top of the Wyeast London
Ale (1028) yeast cake from last week's batch of Nut Brown Ale. After 30
hours it was down to gravity of 1.008.

Phil Plumbo
St. Paul, Minnesota USA
On the Mississippi



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:51:57 -0800
From: marsh and val <balistik at digisys.net>
Subject: storage time

I bottled a batch of stout April 15 of this year. The bottles are stored
in cardboard beer boxes in a cool dark room.  It still tastes great, but
was wondering how long before it may start to go bad.  Any information
would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Marsh



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 03:59:42 -0700
From: "Lee, Brian" <Brian.Lee at attcanada.com>
Subject: re:Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms


Regarding John Palmer's post a couple of issues back:

Excellent work! Your experiments answered a lot of questions I'd always had
about my false bottom setup and just how the flow through the grain bed
went. I've also debated in the past if it would not be better to go to a
manifold type setup and scrap the false bottom. Guess I'll stick with what I
know and love...Oh and the links to pictures were a nice touch too - Always
good to be able to visualize and as they say, seeing is believing.

This is the type of information I love to see in the HBD. 

Brian Lee
Dunnville, Ontario
Canada

(I wonder how long it will take before someone who believes they have
superior knowledge points out why the results must be all wrong...that
wouldn't happen in this forum would it??)



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 11:51:52 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: mystery ingredients

A fellow asks about the following:

Mystery Ingredients:
capsicum
Spanish Liquorice
cocculus indicus
slacked lime
Bret Mayden

Capsicum: red pepper, usually hot. Most grocery stores. Important to know
whether itis seeds or flesh, fresh or dried. Best measured by weight.
Varieties differ greatly in strength.

Spanish Licorice: this is just plain old licorice root. Glycyrrhiza glabra.
Info at umpteen websites including
http://search1.healthgate.com/vit/herb107.shtml and carried by umpteen
grocery stores and brewshops.

cocculus indicus: Indian Cockle.  A slightly controversial herbal remedy for
greif, jet lag, anxiety... Description and drawing at
http://www.oakdalepharmacy.com/homeopathy/guide/pages/cocculus_indicus.htm
some pictures can be found at:
http://www.gudjons.com/Mittel/Cocculus-ind.html

Slaked lime -- calcium hydroxide.  It would adjust pH upward, but perhaps
calcium carbonate would be better?  See
http://www.bartelby.com/65/ca/calciumh.html It would seem to me that this
would cause a calcium precipitate when the beer carbonated... chemists?

Bret. Mayden  -- Clearly this is some new strain of the Brettanomyces
bacteria, perhaps best suited for pLambics, and souring beer...  (just
kidding Bret)

cheers,

Stephen
______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:19:02 -0600
From: "Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies" <orders at paddockwood.com>
Subject: hop and extract amounts

"Michael J. Leavitt" <ml65 at mail.csuchico.edu> asks: "the recipe calls for
6.6 lb of John bull light malt syrup and 2.5 lb M&F light DME.	Is it ok to
use only 9 lb of John bull malt syrup and omit the DME? if so what effect
would this change have?"

In general, LME has 20% less sugar than an equal weight of DME. LME is
usually 20% water.  This can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. In our
experience Munton and Fison spraymalt provides decent head retention,
compared with other DMEs. Also, M&F light malt is lighter that John Bull
light LME.

Your change would lead to a slightly lower gravity, and a slightly darker
beer that may have slightly less head retention.

"1 oz east kent goldings at 5 HBU for bittering and 1/2 oz for aroma (I
think this is 5AA for my 5 gal batch?)  im using east kent goldings at
5.7%AA how does this change the measurements?"

aa% x ounces = HBUs for 5 US gallons (19L)
HBUs / aa% = ounces of hop for 5 gals.

5/5.7=8.77

You would want to use .877 or .9 ounces of EKG. In practice, this is pretty
minor, even more so than the extract change.  If you are worried, add the
bittering hops for a 50 minute boil instead of 60, but I would just use the
whole ounce for the whole time.

Welcome to the hobby Michael!

cheers,

Stephen

______________________________________________
Paddock Wood Brewing Supplies, Saskatoon, SK
orders at paddockwood.com   www.paddockwood.com




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:37:32 +1030
From: Brad McMahon <brad at sa.apana.org.au>
Subject: Morland Yeast & slurry pitching

Rick Gontarek <rgontare at bellatlantic.net> wrote:

>I just harvested the yeast sediment from a bottle of Morland's
>Old Speckled hen, and I was wondering if anyone knows anything 
>about this strain.  Have any of you ever brewed with it, or is
>it similar to any commercially- available strain?  Any  info you
> could provide me with would be appreciated.

I used the Morland strain two years ago with good results.
I did a clone that came out very well. It gives a dry almost dusty
note to the beer that I enjoyed in Old Speckled Hen when it
was brewed in Abingdon. I have tried OSH since the merge
with Greene King (I think it was) and I was dissapointed by the
loss in character - although according to their web site they are
still using the same yeast. The unique flavour that the yeast
creates may not be to everyone's taste though. I entered my beer
in a state comp and I was marked down probably because the
judges were not familiar with the unusual taste.

None of the commercial yeast companies sell the Morland strain
as far as I am aware although, I am sure a couple of them 
may have it in their banks. 

Thomas P. Smit said:
>I then made a batch (grain+extract) of Caledonian 80/- which
> was pitched onto the cake from the Stout, despite earnest 
>entreaties from my excellent homebrew supplier, Grumpys Brewhaus.

I can understand why they advise not to. The chance of infection
is increased if you keep re-using the yeast cake and they
do not want you to have a bad batch of beer. 

I don't see a problem with repitching cake a couple of times though,
just be very sure of your sanitation techniques and I would
use the yeast from the secondary rather than the primary.
If you are not sure you can pick up the nose or taste 
of an infection in it's early stages then I would err on the side
of caution and not re-use the yeast from that batch.

>I have read in the HBD that this is done all the time in the USA 
>but not here in Oz.

Not true. Most of the experienced brewers I know do it on
occasion.

> Anyway, the Caledonian took of like a rocket, the smallish yeast
> head actually pulsing and attenuated from 1048 to 1012 in the space
> of one day and 2 nights. Is that typical when pitching onto a cake 
> from a previous brew?

You probably had a LOT of yeast in that cake from brewing your 1100
Imperial Stout. Pitching onto slurry almost always ferments
well and fast becuase the yeast is healthy and active as well
as being orders of magnitude more cells than normal pitching quantities.
This is why many people pitch slurry.

Keep brewing,

Brad McMahon
Aldgate, Sth Australia.


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Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 00:19:06 +1100
From: "Phil & Jill Yates" <yates at acenet.com.au>
Subject: Supplication And Self Serving Crap

There isn't much left for me to comment on regarding the subject matter of
this post.

Supplication has never been my strong point. That I helped Doc Pivo regain
some sense of self confidence after the terrible beating he took in here is
really another matter. That he was to take on an uncontrollable fascination
with my wife (and all along I believed it was the damp towel - not to
mention my rice lager) is also another matter.

But being asked to write pages and pages of self serving crap?

Why should I?

The master of such is alive and well and never never   disappoints us. Mr
S's latest contribution to the HBD has left my head spinning. I can draw no
parallels between what he has to say and my own experiences with brewing
beer.

I certainly hope someone else can, so his massive effort is not entirely
wasted.

I'll stick to dressing up as Jill and applying damp towels to sick Doctors.
It's nice to know at least someone thinks I look cute dressed up as a nurse!

 Doc, I know your eyes aren't the best, but you really are going to have to
lay off from my rice lager.
Next thing you know, Marilyn from the bog will be chasing you all over
Burradoo Estate!

Now if you will all just leave me alone, I might finally manage to produce a
serious post about my peach wheat beer!

Cheers
Phil




 .







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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:18:03 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Content and lactic acid

Dr. Pivo writes of Phil's content-less content:

>Noooooo.  What Mr. Yates does instead, is make the whole very serious
>business of brewing beer seem like it's something "fun".  In almost
>EVERY SINGLE posting, he cannot desist from throwing in something
>humorous, or pleasant, or sometimes just plain silly.

That bastard!  Brewing is a very serious hobby and is not to be trifled
with.  We should have him publically drawn and quartered - then he'll see
how much fun THAT is!  After which we can post his head on a pike pole in
front of Graham's house for all to see (though something makes me think
Graham's lawn is already decorated with things on pike poles - SHUDDER!)

On a serious note...  Two thumbs up to John Palmer for posting his very
serious Fluid Flow Study of False Bottoms which was not boring at all and
also contributes to making brewing fun.  Great info!

Now for the real reason for this post.  I need info from you guys who have
messed with lactic acid additions to your stouts and Berliner weisse beers.
I have a Hefeweizen to which I've added lactic acid to make a
Berlinerweisse.  Designing Great Beers gives some numbers on acid content
with 0.3% being the middle ground of the commercial Berlinerweisse examples
under discussion.  To get 0.3% in my 5 gallon batch with 88% lactic acid,
I'd have to add about 60 ml.  So I tried 30 ml first and let it blend for a
while.  30 ml seems to do me just fine.  It makes my mouth pucker a bit,
adds a whole new spin to the flavor profile and doesn't make me run for the
antacid tablets either.  Is it best that I leave well enough alone and not
add the other 30 ml to hit my target of 0.3%?  I'm thinking 0.15% is OK for
me or maybe I'm just a sourness wimp?

As for stout additions, how much lactic acid would I have to add to 5
gallons of my stout to get the much sought after "Guinness tang".  Going by
the above examples, if 0.3% is considered to be a soured beer, and the
infamous 3% recommendation is followed, that would lead me to believe that
only 2 ml of 88% lactic acid in 5 gallons would be sufficient.  But my gut
tells me more like 1 ml/gal.  Anyone know fer sure?

Oh, Great Brewing Purists, please forgive my transgressions for I have no
time to conduct sour mashes, lactic cultures and blendings before the Holy
Homebrew vessels are emptied!  I must act quickly!  


Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"He was a wise man who invented beer" - Plato





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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:29:49 -0500
From: "Spinelli, Mike" <paa3983 at dscp.dla.mil>
Subject: Jacksonville/Key West  FL good beer request

HBDers,

Going to Jacksonville and Key West for XMAS and New Years respectively and
would appreciate any suggestions for "must see"  places for beer.

TIA

Mike Spinelli
Mikey's Monster Brew
Cherry Hill NJ 


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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:30:45 -0600
From: "Stephen Lane" <stephenl at mailprint.com>
Subject: piping for burners

Would like some input from those that have "permanently" plumbed the gas
lines to their burners on 2 and 3 tier systems.  Specifically, the burners I
have are from turkey cookers and I have been moving the gas line from burner
to burner as I need to heat different vessels.  The orifice is in the end of
the hose coming out of the regulator and I assume I will need 3 seperate
orifices when I plumb the gas lines.
My question is how do I get the orifice in the plumbing and does it have to
be right at the entrance into the burner?  Also, how does one find the
correct size orifice and where do I find them?  The ones I have found are
flared at the end and won't allow me to get them all the way in to a pipe so
that the threads are exposed on the male end of the pipe.



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:44:23 -0500
From: "Hardter" <hardter at rcn.com>
Subject: Beer will not clear

Hi all,

This is my first posting to HBD so forgive me if similar questions have been
asked before.  I've posted the same to rcb but with minimal replies so
please forgive the duplication.

Just bottled 1/2 (5 gal) of my 2nd AG batch (10 gal).  After 12 days in the
primary and 17 days in the secondary this batch would never clear.  That
included about 2 doses of silica gel and 12 days at 55 degrees.  I finally
chose to bottle because there was no change in the appearance and I needed
the carboy for my 3rd AG session.  An effort at an ESB. Here was the recipe:

20# BRIESS PALE ALE
1# Crystal 20
1# Crystal 60
 .5 # Briess Carapils
 .5 # Briess Wheat
2 oz. Fuggles 65 min.
2 oz. Willamette 65 min.
1 oz. Fuggles (steep)

Mash for 75 min. with mash stirrer on constantly. (The crush seemed
OK-little flour)   Boil for 75 min.  Cool with CF chiller and reasonably
clear when going into fermenters.

1/2 batch Danstar Nottingham.  This is the batch that will not clear.  It
was very orange/cloudy in color after the primary ferm.  OG 1.054  FG 1.012

1/2 batch Danstar London. Dry hop .75 oz. Fuggles.  This batch was also very
cloudy after primary but appears to be clearing much better than the
Nottingham.  (Still in secondary)

I've been brewing for about 4 years now and have never had such a cloudy
brew at bottling time.  It tastes fair and again I'm new to AG so perhaps my
procedures aren't up to par yet in that I'm not aware of what I might be
doing to cause  this problem.  Does anyone have any ideas as to why this
brew is so cloudy?  My 1st and 3rd AG brews were clear. (In those I didn't
use pale ale malt, just 2 row brewer's malt)  Thanks.

Steve


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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:00:38 -0500
From: Martin_Brungard at urscorp.com
Subject: Wort Viscosity

I figure that one of you folks could help me with some information on wort
viscosity. I need the info to plug into an equation to determine flowrate
using a plate orifice.

Viscosity is commonly expressed in two forms: viscosity or kinematic
viscosity.

The units for viscosity are Pascal-seconds or Lb-second/sq.foot.

The units for kinematic viscosity are sq.meters/second or sq.feet/second.

I'm sure that some industrial brewing text has got this information. I
figure it is either in graphical or tabular form. Two factors influence the
viscosity, specific gravity of the wort and temperature of the wort. I
figure that info I need will be in the range of 50C to 80C and gravities
between 1.040 and 1.080. I imagine that there are tables or graphs showing
the variation of wort viscosity with respect to varying temperature for a
given SG (or vice versa).

I've looked at the HBD archives and didn't see any definite answers on this
question, just mentions that the viscosity should be close to that of
water. I'm not sure that is good enough for this application. Could someone
point me to the info on the web or send me a copy of the tables or graphs
via fax or email?

When I get this flowmeter going, I'll publish the design, the flow charts,
and how to use it. Thanks for the help!

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL





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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 10:56:28 -0500
From: cmmundt at AircraftBraking.com
Subject: To De or Not to De (Decoction that is)


Hello All,

     I have heeded the advice the HBD readers offered after my first
experience (disaster?) with all-grain brewing.  Since then, I have brewed
four more batches with a lot more ease and improvement in the process.  The
advice I received was so helpful I thought I would ask for some more.  This
weekend I was planning to brew a Boch. I was debating on an infusion mash
with an evaporation rate of 12-15% to form the necessary melanoids for a
boch or doing a single decoction mash with an evaporation of 8-10%.  I have
not done a decoction mash and was wondering if I should and, if so, some
pointers on how to make it go smoothly.

     Time is not a factor as I have all day on Sunday.  SWMBO will be out
of the house at 7 AM and not back until 8 PM.  Lucky me, I get to brew,
drink previous brew, and watch football all day.  I realize it the American
version of football, not the Oz version.  For some reason those 200 pound
guys feel a need for protection from those 320 pound guys.

     While I am asking, and I hope you are answering, what hops would be
better for the style?  I have access to Hallertau, Hersbruck, Hallertau
Mittlefrau, Tettnanger, Brewers Gold, Mt. Hood, Styrian Goldings, and
Lublin at my local shop.

Chad Mundt
cmmundt at aircraftbraking.com




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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 16:52:06 -0700
From: Chris Swersey <cswersey at salmoninternet.com>
Subject: Educational and Cultural Opportunity

I have been posting to, and admiring the level of discussion in, this
forum for only a month now, having recently found out about it and
rediscovering the joy of homebrewing after 9 years of commercial
brewing. I wanted to make the following information available.

Brewlab, at the University of Sunderland in England, offers affordable
courses which are suitable for homebrewers as well as professionals.
2001 courses begin in February, and go through June.

For more information, check out their website at:

 www.brewlab.co.uk

For a personal response, use the following emails-

in US or Canada: cswersey at salmoninternet.com
outside N. America: keith.thomas at sunderland.ac.uk

Thank you and happy brewing!

Chris Swersey



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Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:57:40 -0600
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
Subject: Moldy Cheese

This problem has little to do with beer but I know I can count on this group
to solve the most profound mysteries of life....

Learned something interesting about refirgerators this week.  Some of my
cheeses were starting to get moldy and this seemed to be mold right on top
of the wax.  Seems like a certain amount of fat leaks throught the wax and
provides a nice growth substrate at the right humidity.

I had been sort of ignoring the hygrometer in the fridge even while cleaning
up these cheeses and what do you know?  It was 99% in there when it had been
around 85% for months.

My fridge is in my shop which is not allowed to get below about 45F in
Winter but is only heated up when actually using it.  The mold problem
started about the time the cold weather set in and seemed like a good place
to start hunting for the cause.  Obviously, the fridge does not run much, if
at all, when the ambient is 45F but as the heat exchanger is outside the
box, I do not see how this could have anything to do with things.

Having nowhere else to go, I started experimenting with a light bulb in the
fridge to force it to run now and then.  The smallest bulb I could find was
7.5W and even this drove the humidity down below 60% in addition to the fact
that the temp was no longer uniform in the box.  I ended up with a light
dimmer on it and am still tweeking it but it seems like at about 40volts
(very dim) it holds the humidty around 80%.

So I seem to have solved the problem but would really like to know why it
works.

ASTROPHOTO OF THE WEEK  http://user.mc.net/arf/weekly.htm
Home Page: Beer, Cheese, Astronomy, Videos http://user.mc.net/arf




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