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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Kettle Drain with Pellet Hops (Kevin Peters)
  re:beerstone (Sharon/Dan Ritter)
  Lager, Nature, and Temperature (Greg Owen)
  Gypsum and Headaches ("Abby, Ellen and Alan")
  Axial dispersion in flow through beds ("Sean Richens")
  dry cinnamon-ing...? (leavitdg)
  Cultural Differences-"When in Rome..." ("Fred L. Johnson")
  Jet Dry and Beer Glasses ("Rick Theiner          ")
  Re: Dogfish Head Immort Ale (mchahn)
  Are you there Brian ? (David Lamotte)
  I will be back (craftbrewer)
  EasYeast??? (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  Old Grains OK? (Kimball Morgan)
  Re: beerstone ("Kurt Schweter")
  more "chilling" thoughts about my inability to communicate ("Dr. Pivo")
  Re: Cultures Rubbing ("Adrian Levi")
  Extraction (kbooth)
  Using Karo Syrup instead of Corn Sugar for Priming ("Chris Strickland")
  Before or After? (Bill Tobler)


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 08:40:48 -0500
From: Kevin Peters <kpeters at ptd.net>
Subject: Kettle Drain with Pellet Hops

I've been thinking about adding a drain to my boiling kettle, but in
searching the archives, the posts I found said this works only with
leaf hops.  No pellets, since the screen will be clogged.  Is anyone
out there using a kettle drain who brews with only pellets?  What
arrangement works?  A screen such as an easymasher?  Along the sides
of the kettle?  A full false bottom?

Kevin Peters
Mechanicsburg, PA


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 07:06:23 -0700
From: Sharon/Dan Ritter <ritter7 at mail.montana.com>
Subject: re:beerstone

Regarding the recent discussions about cleaning beerstone from 
brewing equipment... Conventional wisdom seems to favor a caustic 
based product followed by an acid rinse but can anyone tell me where 
a homebrewer can purchase these products (mail order)? I don't recall 
seeing any of these cleaning products in the major homebrewing supply 
catalogs other than PBW.

Dan Ritter
Hamilton, Montana


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 10:32:43 -0500
From: Greg Owen <gowen at digitalgoods.com>
Subject: Lager, Nature, and Temperature


	Hello, all.  After a 4-year brewing hiatus, I'm brewing again.  I've
got a Stout in secondary a few feet from me, and I'm thinking about my first
lager.

	You see, I've moved into an actual house, as opposed to the
apartment.  One of the things the house has is an unheated garage.  As I
live in New England, this means I've got another 4 months of generally low
temperatures to look forward to.

	Over the last two days, I've been monitoring the temperature in
there.  The range runs from 38 to 48, and I bet if I move my thermometer
away from the basement door it'll drop and get a little more regular.  I'll
be experimenting to see what sort of temperature range and regularity I can
find in there.  I've got the capability to log temperature from up to 3
locations to my computer as often as I want.

	I have a few questions, both about lager brewing and about
temperature control, that I'd like to throw out for your consideration.

	1) What temperature range and variability can lager yeast stand?
Papazian basically says 40-50 degrees F for 4-6 day primary, then <40 F for
3 weeks to 3 months of secondary.  Is the range that broad, or do I need to
dial in more exact temperatures?  If the temp is in  a given range but
varies 5 degrees (say, 43 to 48) over a 24-hour period will that discourage
the yeast?  Is secondary less particular than primary in this regard?  At
what temperature does beer in secondary freeze, and what does that do to the
yeast?

	2) Would immersing the carboy in a bucket of water increase the
temperature stability?  When the garage door opens, cold air sweeps in, the
temperature drops.  But I would think that water will require more than a
quick blow of cold air to change temperature much.  How about a blanket?

	3) I've got a temperature probe that talks to the computer - if I
had a way to use my computer to make small temperature adjustments (like
flicking an aquarium heater on or off) then I could keep the temperature
where I want it.  Is anybody familiar with a cheap way to do that?  Remote
reboot devices tend to come in groups of 8 or more outlets and cost $500,
but there must be a simpler way.

	Any helpful hints you have are greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

- -- 
	gowen -- Greg Owen -- gowen at DigitalGoods.com


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:31:57 -0400
From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Gypsum and Headaches

A question about a potential allergy.

Recently I made a nice basic session bitter and for the first time I
added gypsum to one  of my brews.   I usually stick to brown ales and
stouts from personal perference so this was a new effort for me.   
Unlike anyone else who tries the beer, two hours after even a sip I get
a screaming mid forehead pain like steel wool on the inside of my skull.
It is not a hangover as the ale barely makes 2%.   I am allergic to
sodium metabisulfate and can tell when, like with our local micro
brewery here on PEI, it is used as the cleaning agent.

Has anyone else noted such a reaction to gypsum?   Is there a substitute
additive to get the long hoppy finish to a bitter?   SHould I just notch
up the hops a bit to compensate.    By the way, we have very neutral
water here on PEI being a glorified sandbar.

Alan McLeod in PEI


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Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2000 17:03:06 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Axial dispersion in flow through beds

Paul & John:

You might want to look at a simple function which matches the residence time
distribution in many packed beds (e.g. lauter tuns) very well, especially
when the particles are themselves pourous.  The Gumbel distribution:

G(t) = exp ( - exp (-a*(t-b)))

where "a" describes the amount of dispersion and "b" the delay between the
pulse entering the bed and leaving the bed.

When applied to a lauter tun, of course, one would use the integral of the
function for the step change.

I've never been able to figure out a mechanistic model for why this equation
works, but it does,

Sean Richens
srichens at sprint.ca




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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 11:29:15 -0500 (EST)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: dry cinnamon-ing...?


I have dry hopped...several pale ales, and have found, as reported by
most here, that it really helps in developing a wonderful hop aroma.

However, I have never used cinnamon sticks in the keg...for a winter
warmer.  Has anyone ever dry cinnamoned?  I suppose that the sticks
should be boiled....then added, to the keg?  How about the oil that
they might impart?

 .Darrell


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 12:11:55 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Cultural Differences-"When in Rome..."

I read with interest Graham Sanders treatise on the cross-cultural
phenomenon going on in the HBD posts.  He has described the classic
situation in which a given cultures' habits are perceived in a manner by the
second culture in a way that is not intended.  The result is that such
behavior within the second culture is offensive, etc. and the reaction of
that second culture is consistent with such offensive intent.  (I think this
all began many years ago with the incident at the tower of Babel and
consequent curse.)

It is apparent to me that many in the HBD, including Australians and
Americans alike, may have not learned an important lesson when tring to
effectively communicate with individuals from other cultures.
(Alternatively, they may not care, which is sad.) In the cross-cultural
world of business, governments, and politics, one's own habits are willingly
self-suppressed in deference to the habits of the other culture with which
one is trying to communicate and do business with.  (I would add that the
HBD is such a common ground on which folks of various cultures are
attempting to communicate and actually accomplish something substantive,
i.e. making and enjoying better beer.)  If one is knowledgable of the habits
of the other culture (as one should be if one intends to actually do any
business and communicate with the other culture), one goes to all means
possible to avoid being misunderstood.  Such is also the case within any
polite society.  That is, one defers to the other, which is recognized and
appreciated by the other party, who then reciprocates whenever possible.
Besides, it is in one's own interest (if not in the interest of the other
party), to communicate in such a way that one is NOT misunderstood.

Graham Sanders uses an example of how a person from another culture/language
unintentionally mispronounces or misuses a word  (or makes some other
mistake). Graham rightly says that this person would be forgiven such an
innocent mistake, and that it would be rude for one to do make fun or
harshly criticize for such a mistake.  I am quite dismayed that, according
to Graham Sanders, some Australians, AS A CULTURE, delight in making
statements intended to be offensive to Americans, just so that they can have
a hearty laugh at the Americans' reactions.  In other words, the INTENT of
such individuals is to offend.  Such individuals KNOW better and simply
don't care--a selfish (and self-destructive) attitude and counterproductive
to a communication forum such as the HBD.

To the Australians: Is it any wonder that "cultures" clash when an
individual's intent toward the other culture is to make fun of it?

I also understand that this type of behavior among some Australians is at
least partly the result of the narrow-minded, provincial attitude of so many
Americans.  Many Americans ARE guilty of seeing the world only as Americans
see it and expecting the rest of the world to "follow suit"--another selfish
attitude.  In such cases, the American deserves the ridicule for which some
Australians have a creative skill for delivering.

To all of us: (paraphrasing) "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
you, and do it in the manner in which the others would do it."
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:17:47 -0500
From: "Rick Theiner " <Logic at mail.skantech.com>
Subject: Jet Dry and Beer Glasses

Dave Howell asks about Jet Dry bringing about problems with beer.
As someone who has been formulating rinse aids for almost 10 years
(finally got a question in my peculiar area of expertise!!), I can 
tell him that Jet Dry will indeed kill the head of a beer.  How much]
depends on the injector in his machine and the type of beer.

I was involved in setting up the initial cleaning and sanitizing 
systems in the kitchen of Dave Miller's place in Nashville 
(Blackstone's), and having just started into homebrewing, I really 
wasn't sure of the effect of rinse aids.  Dave set us straight pretty 
quickly, and the only thing touching his glasses during the final rinse 
is an iodophor type sanitizer (unneeded in the home, but necessary for 
the health code).

(BTW, Dave is a great guy, and I highly recommend saying hi if you 
ever make it there.)

Rick Theiner


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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:24:21 -0500
From: mchahn at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: Dogfish Head Immort Ale

>Is there a recipe out there yet for this great beer? If so, using a standard
>ale yeast would bring down the alcohol but would it change the taste?

There is a recipe in the new book NORTH AMERICAN CLONE BREWS that can be
used as a starting point. It doesn't include the maple syrup, vanilla, etc.
that Dogfish Head puts in this beer. I believe those ingredients are listed
on the bottle. In the book, he uses 1728 yeast and says he gets 11% ABV.
Certainly the alcohol is an important part of the flavor profile, but even
if you didn't get that high an alcohol content, this should be a tasty brew.


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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:40:37 +1100
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Are you there Brian ?

Pat is correct (of course) when he advises for you to check with your ISP
about the missing issues.  Is your email address correct as I too cannot
see rrc.mb.ca - you simply don't exist.

Before the move my copy of the HBD mysteriously stopped.  Pat confirmed
that the HBD servers had sent it.  My ISP denied any filtering etc was
going on, but as email is often relayed from one server to another (take a
look at your full email header to see) there was obviously someone,
somewhere stopping the digest getting through.

Well after a couple of weeks, and a number of test messages received from
unkown people it suddenly sprang into life.

So, go get em boy....

David


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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 10:23:48 +1100
From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: I will be back


G'day All

Well a quick note here (for a change)

I will be back.  I have to reply to all you buggers 
who have written to me (my there's a lot of you).

So be patient

In the meantime

Shout someone over the break

Graham Sanders

Oh - getting on my good side does not mean that 
my carton import duty doesn't apply. 
Nice try!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 15:32:57 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: EasYeast???

Hiya, 

I went to my new local homebrew store (StoutBillys) and was surprised
to see no familiar liquid strains... 

Just some brand called "EasYeast" 

The Store clerk made the yeast out to sound fantastic. 

What's the scoop? 

Anybody know? 

 -Scott 

=====
"Life without Plaid sucks"

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:21:15 -0800
From: Kimball Morgan <km11 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Old Grains OK?

Hello,

A question for the all-grainers:

I'm just getting back into brewing after a three-year hiatus.

Spent part of this afternoon going through my equipment and supplies.  I've
got 100 pounds+ of various grains, all of which are ~3 years old.  They have
been stored in almost-airtight containers during that period.  I went
through each bin and smelled, tasted, looked for unusual things, etc.; it
all seems OK.

Does anyone have any idea what the shelf-life on malted barley is?  Perhaps
what to look for in analyzing same?

I'd hate to toss it to the deer if I can use it in my comeback-brew, which
will probably be a strong Belgian-style.

All thoughts and comments appreciated,

(and, Cheers!)

Kimball Morgan



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Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2000 16:25:35 -0500
From: "Kurt Schweter" <KSchweter at smgfoodlb.com>
Subject: Re: beerstone

just great,
something else to be paranoid about !!!!
how long and how often does this accure in
homebrewing
I've been an happy stainless man for 3 years 
scrubbing and sanitizing
before and after brewing
guess I need to start reading !



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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 09:19:19 +0100
From: "Dr. Pivo" <docpivo at hotmail.com>
Subject: more "chilling" thoughts about my inability to communicate

David Lamotte summarised my posting as:

" My reading is
that you use your counterflow chiller as normal, but you direct the warm
'exhaust' water through your imersion cooler prior to disposal.  As this is
'immersed' in your kettle, it helps to reduce the temperature of the wort
entering the counterflow cooler by dropping the temperature of the uncooled
wort still in the kettle"

Which is EXACTLY what I meant, and I wonder why couldn't I put it so 
clearly.

As to theoretical implications of whether it will "work" or not, I already 
know it does.  If you've got an immersion chiller just "hanging about" 
collecting dust, you might want to try it... depending on flow rates and a 
bunch of other crap, I'm guessing you can pull about 40 percent off your 
cooling time (I pull about 65 percent off, but that is just because my 
counterflow is stainless and as such a pretty crappy heat exchanger).

What you end up with, is something where you gradually get to increase flow 
during cooling, so that by the end it is "full throttle".

Dr. Pivo


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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 18:35:51 +1000
From: "Adrian Levi" <adrian at lefty.dyndns.org>
Subject: Re: Cultures Rubbing

Alan McLeod Said:

>[By the way, Canadians don't do TSOP perferring ironic self-deprecation
>which is sometimes just insulting the person before us through

Could this new mnemonic mean "Taking Someone Out to Pissup"?

Adrian (Aussie TPOS Post)




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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 00:02:44 -0400
From: kbooth <kbooth at waverly.k12.mi.us>
Subject: Extraction

> 
> Dr Stevo, I have been doing some lauter flow experiments myself in order to
> extract the very last of those sugary pieces into my kettle.
> It occurred to me that a rapid orbit of the lauter tun about one's head
> would surely force the very last sugary bits out of every bit of grain. But
> there is a potential problem. As I found out with the last orbital
> experiment I conducted.
> And Eric Fouch asked of me a simple and succinct question for which even
> today I have not found an answer.
> How do you control the tangential factor?
> I mean, should the lauter tun slip from your grip.
> 
> Dr Stevo, do you have an equation that would explain this?
> 
> Phil
> Baron Of Unusual Experiments
> Burradoo

Jim B. writes.....Its been a few years (40+) since I inverted any matrices
and Cramer Rules was the teacher of my class I believe.  Most of my inversions
lately are related to beerhunting.  Any way, in following
the signs of the sines, I believe that in the southern hemisphere it will be
necessarry to rotate one's lauter tun the opposite direction than from the
northern 
hemisphere to get the correct extraction. 

So tell us, in the land of OZ, does one rotate one's tun clockwise or counter-
wise, and will you get arrested if you do it in public?

Holiday cheer to all......but for a White Christmas come visiting as we've got
 about 30" of it here in Rennerland.  jim booth




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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:35:45 -0500
From: "Chris Strickland" <chris at new-horizon.net>
Subject: Using Karo Syrup instead of Corn Sugar for Priming

Has anybody tried using Karo Syrup instead corn sugar for priming, they're
the same thing basically.  How much Syrup would equate to 3/4's cup of corn
sugar?

Also, when using DME for priming, is it 1 1/4 cups of DME for priming?  (I
hope or I'll have some exploding bottles).

Thanks



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Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2000 14:14:36 -0600
From: Bill Tobler <WCTobler at brazoria.net>
Subject: Before or After?

Hi all,
   I've been lurking for a long time, and staying out of the war zone.  I
made my Christmas Eve APA today, and was just wondering what everyone else
does.  After the boil and cool down, I typically pitch, aerate, and shake,
rattle and roll.  For some reason today, I aerated, shook, rattled and
rolled, then pitched. ( And shook a little more) Do you think it makes a
difference? I can't see how, but......... Have a great Holiday season, and
keep on brewing.

To Better Brewing
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson, TX





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