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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  I'm back (craftbrewer)
  Re: CO2 volumes (Spencer W Thomas)
  re: Kettle drains and pellet hops (Bill_Rehm)
  Clogging drainports (Mjbrewit)
  HEY FRIDGE GUY- NEED YOUR ADVICE ("Hill, Steve")
  Darcy's law ("Paul Niebergall")
  stainless teaball for dryhops ("Joseph Marsh")
  Pellet clogs (Epic8383)
  War of the Worts (JOHN VARADY)
  Brewsource.com etc. ("Grant Knechtel")
  Calculating Extract from steeping ("John Herman")
  Golden Promise ScotMalt (ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO)
  TSP for cleaning? (RBoland)
  MCAB Grain (RBoland)
  Best of Brooklyn IV ("Kevin Winn")
  RE: Kettle Drain with Pellet Hops ("The Holders")


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:32:31 +1100
From: craftbrewer at telstra.easymail.com.au
Subject: I'm back


G'day All

http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au

Well BUGGER me!!!!!!!!!

Things have finally quietened down. Good to see til the next time 
this sort of thing erupts again.  Give it another six months.  Put it 
this way, least we got your mind off your circus opps elections.  
Now I even tried my hand at a bit a diplomacy, you know, chin 
wagging the back fence and all that, what you call it, mending 
the fences. Well I fail at that rather badly it seems.  If I did the 
Middle east talks, I would have Egypt, Syria Lebanon, and Iraq 
all at war.  I'll stick to beer related stuff, can't hurt too many that 
way

Now you ;lot will notice a new by-line up top. Well it seems yanks 
needs a bit of educating and David did point out something I 
took for granted. Our very own dictionary. Now people this is no 
spinning you a yarn exercise, this is a true blue dictionary, 
recognised internationally and in the courts. Now it seems many 
of you can't understand the lingo, so I will now include this, so 
everyone can reference it when I go over the top. Its my bit to 
help the understanding of our culture.

Speaking of which

From: "Abby, Ellen and Alan" <elal at pei.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Cultures Rubbing

My only problem is unlike Poms and Yanks, Canucks
never seem to be the target of TSOP - Ozzies treat us like threat 
nice little and perhaps softer/dimmer cousins under the Queen!<<<

Now Alan, lets face it, you are a commonwealth country and us 
lot must stick together. we fought too many wars together and 
have a very common bond. Any-way, we feel sorry for you, after 
all, we know the neighbours.   


Now beer related stuff. I'm willing to bet I;ll be hung out to dry if 
I dont.

From: "Pete Calinski" <pcalinski at iname.com>
Subject: Re:High-tech homebrewing in orbit, anyone?   AND 
how to chill it<<<

Now picturing having a beer in orbit is very interesting.  Cooling it 
should be no worries. Just do what we do in the bush. Hang it on 
a piece of string and put it somewhere cool. Now doesn't it get 
kinda cold on the shady side of things up there. can't you picture 
it, a six pack floating out the side window. Or better still, eskies 
floating in orbit permanently on the 'dark side'.  Every orbit you 
collect one and put one back.

But let assume you have a bag of beer floating up there. Would i 
be right that it would basically go like honeycomb, or worse just 
foam as it warms up. If the bag could hold the pressure, then I 
think it would be all right, lot of bubbles in your beer, just wont 
go anywhere.  Somehow i think you would lose the mouth feel 
though. yep nice beer, but had no body.

From: Kevin Peters <kpeters at ptd.net>
Subject: Kettle Drain with Pellet Hops<<

Now I have done this but it does take a bit of care. I have used 
rolled Termi-mesh, but made it double layered to stop clogging. 
But the key trick is to whirlpool and leave it to settle 20 minutes, 
not you usual 10 minutes.  This takes a heap of will power. And 
also dont have the screen running into the centre of the pot. 
Have it bent to follow the edge.

You'll find doing that it will work fine.

From: Kimball Morgan <km11 at pacbell.net>
Subject: Old Grains OK?,,

Now it asked is old grain still useful. Well yes and no. I have 
used some speciality grains that have been four years old, and 
pale malts two years old. Certain found nothing wrong with both, 
although like pulling out old clothes they certainly wont smell all 
that fresh. What I do is give them a very light roast, say 90c for 
an hour.  Its amazing how fresh they smell and taste after doing 
something as simple as this.  Puts life back into the old sods.

Now if there was something that would work on me, well 
I'm up for it.

From: "FatCat" <fatcat at homebrew.com>
Subject: Invert Sugar #2;Cultural Query

Anyone have a source for invert sugar, dark variety?<<<<

Well yes its easy, make you own. a bit of citric acid with a thick 
sugary solution, and boil the cr+p out of it til it caramelizes to the 
colour you want. See any good cook, they will do it. Heck I'm 
willing to bet your old lady would be able to show you. 

By the way people, its a great way to make dark Candy sugar, and 
it gives a flavour to dubbels that is just grouse opps great.

Shout

Graham Sanders

oh That Dr Pivo is quick, cant seem to nail the bastard yet. The 
baits keeps disappearing and all we hear is this faint cry, 
"they'll never catch me - they dont know who I am".  You not in 
Sweden now, mate, I'll have you yet. And when I do the bog 
will look wonderful compared to what i have planned for you


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 08:11:36 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 volumes 

Probably got an answer already, but if not...

CO2 gas at STP (300K, 1 atm -- close enough to room temp) occupies
22.4 liters per 44g, or very close to 1 liter per 2g.  The calculation
below is done to about 2 significant digits, which is "close enough."

20lb = 9000g
9000g * 1l/2g = 4500 l
4500 l = 160 cu ft

>From this we can deduce that a pound of CO2 takes up about 8 cubic
feet.

=S


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 09:09:46 -0600
From: Bill_Rehm at eFunds.Com
Subject: re: Kettle drains and pellet hops

Kevin Peters asks about using kettle drains and pellet hops....

I use a converted keg with the typical dip tube ball valve configuration, I
also use a ten inch false bottom from Stainless in Seatle (I have heard
that they have shut down the business).  I usually use a mesh bag for my
pellet hops, however when I don't the false bottom does just fine.  The
hops and other break material has 15 minutes or so to settle while the
immersion chiller is doing its work most settles on top of the false bottom
and a small quantity finds its way to the primary.  What finds its way to
the primary settles fairly quickly.

Bill Rehm
Weil Street Backyard (soon to be basement) Brewery
Oostburg, Wisconsin



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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:16:59 EST
From: Mjbrewit at aol.com
Subject: Clogging drainports

I brew 10 gal quantities using a keg with an easy masher.  I too have 
experienced problems with clogging, when using pellet hops.  I tried 
expanding the available easy masher ports using copper tubing fittings.  My 
current set up looks like a "E" with three fittings protruding and stainless 
steel screens on each, all funneling into the same outlet.  I found with the 
three-screen setup I can brew with pellet hops if necessary, but the outlet 
capacity will slow down near the end as all three partially clog.  My 
preferred method is to brew exclusively with whole hops.  Using whole hops, 
the risk of clogging is completely eliminated, and there is an added benefit. 
 I find that whole hops tend to clump together near the outlet and act as a 
filter greatly reducing the amount of trub that gets into the fermenter.   
The only drawback is that whole hop distributors tend to only stock the basic 
hop styles and there is usually an increased cost to get high quality whole 
hops.  I used to use Hoptech products as they are very fine quality with a 
good variety, but they recently doubled there shipping costs.  Does anyone 
else have a good source of high quality whole hops out there at a more 
reasonable cost.   


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:25:46 -0500
From: "Hill, Steve" <SHill at advanta.com>
Subject: HEY FRIDGE GUY- NEED YOUR ADVICE

Fridge Guy:

I live in southeastern Pennsylvania and have the fridge out in the garage -
what is too cold to run the fridge?  Too cold meaning the temp of the
garage.  Just to let you know - it is about 15-18 degrees F out side and the
garage temp is about 45-50 degrees.

thanks for your help

steve


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 10:59:34 -0600
From: "Paul Niebergall" <pnieb at burnsmcd.com>
Subject: Darcy's law

John wrote:

>Paul graciously volunteered to join the circle jerk that I, Guy Gregory, 
>Martin Brugaard, Steve Alexander, and Brian Kern have been working on for 
>several years. (or maybe I am just being heckled)

Join YOUR party.  I think not.  I got my own thing going on right here 
(besides, my right hand prefers it that way).   You guys are way too far 
down the wrong track already.  I don't know if I should have laughed 
or cried when I saw the following statement:

>But, I don't think Darcy's Law is applicable (too many simplifying 
>assumptions) and the experimental data does not agree with it.

The are no simplifying assumptions in Darcy's law.  It is an easy to measure
phenomena that applies to flow through all porous media.  Darcy's law  
simply provides a constant (coefficient of hydraulic conductivity) 
that equates flow (specific discharge) to the driving force (head) acting on a 
porous medium. How could it possible NOT apply?  It seems now would be 
an appropriate time to discuss Darcy's law.

Simply put: v = K dh/dl

Where: v = specific discharge (or flow)
K = coefficient of hydraulic conductivity
dh = change in head
dl = change in length

Note that dh/dl is the change in head per unit length and is commonly referred 
to as the hydraulic gradient (i).  Anyway, enough of the equations. 
Let's talk about why this applies to wort flow through a lauter tun.  
If you have a cylindrical lauter tun of cross sectional area A and 
flow Q moving through it, you have a specific discharge of Q/A.  
If Q = 0.1 gallon per minute (gpm) and the cross sectional area 
of the lauter tun (A) is 1.75 square feet, the specific discharge 
(v) = 0.0076 feet per minute, thusly:

Q = 0.1 gpm * 0.1337 cubic foot per gallon (conversion factor)  

Q = 0.0134 cubic feet per minute (cfm)

A = 1.75 square feet

Since v = Q/A 

v= 0.0134 cfm / 1.75 square feet

v = 0.0076 feet per minute

So now we have the flow through the system, the only thing 
missing is the driving force that is causing the flow.  For this 
we use a term called head.  If you were to put a simple 
pressure measuring device (referred to as a manometer) 
near the top of the lauter tun and a second one near the 
bottom of the lauter tun, you can measure the difference 
(with a tape measure) in fluid levels in the two manometers 
and get the difference in head (dh) between the two points.  
It is easy to measure the vertical distance between the two 
measuring points (dl) as well.  In our example, let's say the 
difference in the two fluid levels is 0.5 inch and the vertical 
distance between them is 18 inches.  In this case, the 
hydraulic gradient dh/dl (or i) = 0.5 inch / 18 inches = 0.0278.

Now let's put it all together and solve for the coefficient of 
hydraulic conductivity  (K).

v = K * i 

re-arranging the equation becomes K = v/i

K = 0.0076 feet per minute / 0.0278

K = 0.2734 feet per minute

Big friggin' deal (BFD), you say.  Well let me explain the importance 
of defining the coefficient of hydraulic conductivity (K).  Since 
Darcy's law is an empirical law, it's proof rests solely on 
experimental evidence.  I did performed such experiments and 
have determined that K for saturated, crushed, malted barley 
ranges from approximately 0.1 to about 0.5 feet per minute.  K is 
simply a constant of proportionality, by this I mean that it is 
specific to the medium (crushed malted barely) and does not 
vary with the physical constraints (shape and dimensions) of the 
measuring system.  Once you have the K values derived, you 
can use it for any lauter set up.  This is precisely what I 
have repeated in many experiments.

As you can see, Darcy's law does apply to a lauter system.  It 
is a parameter that is simple to observe and measure.  So 
what about increase is flow velocities in the near vicinity of 
the lauter outlet?  (I suspect that this is where 
Mr. Palmer, et al are having problems with their analysis).  
Make no mistake, Darcy's law still applies to every point in 
the flow system.  It is the interrelationship of the points that 
was flawed in the original model that was presented (the 
original model was way to simplistic).   As we shall see later, 
better definition of the model domain (descritization), 
especially in the area in the vicinity of the lauter outlet 
will more than make up for differences in the flow 
velocities within the lauter system.

Good luck with your analytical approach.

 -P


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 14:33:29 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: stainless teaball for dryhops

High, hope this gets thru cause the last time I tried to post I was told I 
was over 80 charactors.

The Chinese made 3" tea balls someone mentioned work well for dry hoppping 
in a cornie keg. There is one drawback however. The latch pivot is NOT 
stainless and rusts away to nothing in the keg. I've replaced it with a bit 
of copper wire.

I know people who have drilled out the rivit before use and that seems a 
good idea but I didn't notice any iron or matallic flavors.

Joe new guy to hbd.


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 15:33:40 EST
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: Pellet clogs

    I've never been able to use pellets at all in my keg/kettle because of 
clogging. I love my leaf hops though, as they form a nice trub filter on top 
of the screen. I may get pellets to try a mash hopped brew.
      Gus


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Date: 26 Dec 00 14:40:04 MST
From: JOHN VARADY <rust1d at usa.net>
Subject: War of the Worts

Second Notice!

The Keystone Hops Homebrew Club is proud to announce that the sixth annual
War Of The Worts Homebrew Competition will be held on Saturday, February
3rd at the The Drafting Room, in Springhouse PA. Judging starts promptly
at 9 am, and, the winners will be announced at about 4:30 pm that afternoon.

Complete contest rules, entry forms, and BJCP style guides may be found
on line at http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/worts6.htm. The entry fee is
$6 for the first entry, and $5 for each subsequent entry accompanying
the first. Two 10-16 ounce bottles (brown or green glass) are required per
entry.

This announcement also serves as a call to Judges and Stewards. Volunteers
may register on line at http://www.keystonehomebrew.com/judgereg.htm, or
send an email to Nate Brese at Nathaniel_Brese at rohmhaas.com indicating the
position desired. Judges should arrive at the competition location by 9:00
am the day of the competition.

Hope To See You There,

John Varady
rust1d at usa.net




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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:16:40 -0800
From: "Grant Knechtel" <gwk at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Brewsource.com etc.

Doug Hurst asked about Brewsource.com in HBD #3511.  They were kind 
enough to donate to our fundraising raffle for the BrewRats online brewing 
club's annual meeting.  I won one of their gift certificates in the raffle and 
used it recently.  They were prompt shipping and have a nice selection.   
I usually patronize my local brewshop but don't hesitate to recommend 
Brewsource to anyone looking for an on-line or mailorder source. No 
other affiliation.

Feel the need to comment re recent give-and-take relative to high 
brewing content/low humour and low brewing content/high humour 
posts.  

I love them both.  Care does need to be taken to avoid hurt feelings 
on web forums because facial expression and other body language 
doesn't transmit well ;;-}  

By the same token, when one's feeling personally attacked it would 
seem wise to step back and say to oneself "After all, it's only the Net!  
Maybe they *don't* mean it personally...even if they do, so what?!?  
Can they truly damage me?  Scroom!"

Prost!
 -LabRat
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, WA, USA





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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:31:38 -0500
From: "John Herman" <johnvic at earthlink.net>
Subject: Calculating Extract from steeping

When creating an extract recipe I'm confused about calculating the extract
contribution from steeped specialty grains.  Should I worry about this?

Thanks,

John Herman
johnvic at earthlink.net



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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 17:41:29 -0800 (PST)
From: ThE GrEaT BrEwHoLiO <skotrat at yahoo.com>
Subject: Golden Promise ScotMalt

hmmm 

Who has used it? What should I get? More malt? More flavor? More
color? 

Thoughts? 

Thanks!

"PLAID ON BROTHER PAT"!

C'ya!

 -Scott

=====
"Life without Plaid sucks"

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat - Skotrats Beer Page
http://www.brewrats.org - BrewRats HomeBrew Club



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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:43:45 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: TSP for cleaning?

I've used TSP. to clean my equipment for several years with no problems.  I 
use about 1 tsp/gal.  On occasion, however, a residue plated out on glass 
surfaces.  A vinegar solution rinse takes it right off.

I've just started using PBW.  It's a bit more expensive, but appears to clean 
just as well and without residue.

Bob Boland


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 21:10:54 EST
From: RBoland at aol.com
Subject: MCAB Grain

Joel asked about the grain that was given away as a door prize at MCAB 3 in 
St. Louis.  The grain, donated by St. Pat's of Austin, is Moravian Pils.  It 
is not the under-modified variety, but you should be able to make quite a 
nice Pilsner or Belgian ale with it.  Let us know how it turns out.

Bob Boland 


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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 22:04:01 -0500
From: "Kevin Winn" <krewbrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Best of Brooklyn IV

The Malted Barley Appreciation Society will be hosting its fourth annual
homebrew competition, Best of Brooklyn IV, on February 24, 2001 at the
Brooklyn Brewery.  This AHA sanctioned event will continue the tradition
of providing quality judging and rewarding brewers with a prize for
first, second, and third place in each category.  There will again be a
First Time Contestant's Best of Show.  Entries will be due by February
16, and several drop off points will be provided.  Visit the developing
competition
website at http://hbd.org/mbas/bob2001.html or contact Kevin Winn at
krewbrew at mindspring.com for more information.




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Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2000 20:49:01 -0800
From: "The Holders" <zymie at charter.net>
Subject: RE: Kettle Drain with Pellet Hops

Jack responds to Kevins question about screens and pellet hops:

">A screen such as an easymasher?....

What else?"

How about a Bazooka Screen(TM)? With well over 4 times as much surface area
as an easymasher, there is no comparison.

See for yourself:
http://www.zymico.com/bazooka/compare.jpg


I guess that all depends on how you define "surface area" though.


Wayne Holder AKA Zymie
Long Beach CA
http://www.zymico.com







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