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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Rice Lager - I Promised To Tell ("Helen Pay")
Re: "dry" method of batch sanitizing bottles? (Jacob Jacobsen)
Bottle Sanitizing (Wayne & Janet Aldrich)
Dry sanitizing ("Fred L. Johnson")
Re: Converted keg mashing vessel (RobertJ)
6% alcohol limit (larry matthews)
Ammonia fridges (fridgeguy)
Aerating cane (Steve)
Phil's Phalse Bottom Material (Dan Listermann)
Hi ("Steven Parfitt")
re: trapped CO2 ("Stephen Alexander")
drain placement (The Freemans)
"dry" method of batch sanitizing bottles ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest Results and HSA (Vachom)
expiration dates, hops and chilling delay, stupid human tricks (Keith Brown)
RE: Converted Keg Mashing Vessel (Mark Alfaro)
Alconox ("Grant Knechtel")
beer stone and five star products ("Richard Sieben")
RE: Experience with Alconox for cleaning ("John B. Doherty")
Re: historic unhopped beer website (Jeff Renner)
troubleshooting ("Richard Sieben")
more on sanitizing with alcohol ("Larry Maxwell")
re: trapped CO2 (Demonick)
That's not a gasket! ("Daniel C Stedman")
Regarding Efforts in Georgia to Change Legal Beer Definition ("Mark Nelson")
Beer School ("Jim Bermingham")
Announcing: Inaugural meeting of the Toronto homebrew club ("patrick finerty jr.")
\Expiration dates (Epic8383)
Understanding Aussies (and their beer!) (TOLLEY Matthew)
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:23:08 +1100
From: "Helen Pay" <hpay at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Rice Lager - I Promised To Tell
A true HBDer, even when on holidays is committed to disseminating
information.
As Helen has been so kind as to let me use her computer, I thought I'd do
just that.
With regards to the famous rice lager, firstly a few things must be
understood. Rice is a diluter of both colour and flavour. You need to be
sure this is what you want before you use it.
In my case I was carrying out experiments to determine the taste threshold
of boof headed North Queenslanders. How far could you wind down the flavour
and colour of a beer before your average boof headed NQ suspected he was
being ripped off and cried foul? The famous rice lager seemed to be about
the threshold. Sadly the peach wheat was all too subtle for them (though met
with great praise in our southern regions).
I substitute around 20% of an all malt lager with ordinary rice from the
supermarket. It needs to be ground up very fine (finest setting on a Valley
mill is perfect) and mashed with a small portion of malt for about 30
minutes before bringing to the boil. Whilst this is going on the rest of the
malt is being mashed on its own. The rice/malt mixture is then added back to
the main mash. Specific times and temps I don't have with me at present but
I am sure they can be found in the archives under Cereal Mashing by Jeff
Renner. My details are all at home.
It is important to realise that lightening body in such a way also calls for
easing back on IBUs to maintain a balance. Something around or less than 20
IBUs is a good starting point. I sometimes use hallertau for bittering but
always saaz for flavour. First Wort Hopping works very well with this style
but be sure to take into account added IBUs.Yeast? well take your pick. I
have had good results with Ayinger but also think White Labs German lager
yeast is a good clean fermenter. If you get hold of some Ayinger, my
experience is that it gets a bit sleepy below 10C. Seems very happy at 12C.
The rice lager seems to meet with great acceptance from folk not used to all
malt (and sometimes heavily hopped) beers of the style we homebrewers have
come to love. I was just looking for something a little different. I have
had good success with corn in the form of polenta using the same technique.
Corn in my opinion adds more character than rice and was the basis for my
pursuit of the original Australian lager of the 1950's. In those days North
Queensland was a mosquito ridden tropical bog somewhere north of Brisbane.
Funny that, it hasn't changed one bit!
Cheers
Phil
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 03:03:50 -0500
From: Jacob Jacobsen <brewer at cotse.com>
Subject: Re: "dry" method of batch sanitizing bottles?
The method I use isn't dry, but it's easy. I usually bottle and I use 12 oz.
bottles in a 24 compartment plastic beer crate. I always rinse empties well
before putting them away. At bottling time, I use a 1 qt. pump sprayer filled
with iodophor solution and spray a mist down the neck of each bottle. After 10
mins., I put a home made wire screen cover over the case and invert it to let
the bottles drain. After a few minutes the bottles are ready for use. I have
a small utility room with a floor drain in which I do this. It could be done
over the bathtub or outside. For me, this makes sanitizing bottles pretty much
a non-event on bottling day. Your mileage may vary.
Jake
- ----------------
Without question, the greatest invention in the history of mankind is beer. Oh,
I grant you that the wheel was also a fine invention, but the wheel does not go
nearly as well with pizza. -- Dave Barry
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:18:23 +0100
From: Aldrich4 at t-online.de (Wayne & Janet Aldrich)
Subject: Bottle Sanitizing
As long as the bottles have been cleaned (bottle brush & detergent)
and are free of labels I put mine in the oven and bake them at
220 degrees F for 20 minutes. I usually do this the night before
I bottle that way I just turn off the oven and leave the bottles to
cool overnight. If you use swing tops make sure you remove the
rubber gaskets before you bake them. I use half liter European
bottles I can fit about 30 bottles in the oven at a time if they
are arranged properly.
Wayne Aldrich
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 07:53:38 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Dry sanitizing
Martin asks about dry, batch sanitizing bottles.
I have posted to the HBD regarding heat sanitizing bottles in the oven.
check the 1999 or 2000 HBD archives.
Basically, you rinse out all the yeast out with several changes of small
volumes of water vigorous shaking with your thumb over the opening of the
bottle immediately after use. DO NOT USE SOAP. Rinse briefly with a small
volume of 1% w/v trisodium phosphate (TSP, found in the paint section of the
hardware stores). Use the REAL TSP, not the no phosphate kind. Rinse the
TSP out with several changes of water. Invert to dry overnight in the sink.
Next morning, cap bottle with square of aluminum foil and store bottles
until ready to bottle the beer. The night before bottling, place bottles
with foil in oven on their sides stacked as high as you can (to get more in
the oven). Heat to 325 degrees Farenheit for 1.5 hours, turn off oven, and
leave in hot oven to cool until the next morning. Bottles are essentially
sterile at that point. (You could probably sanitize several days in advance
as long as you keep the foil in place, but I've only done this a couple of
times.) Remove foil just before filling each bottle. (I reuse the foil
several times until it starts getting pin holes in it.)
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:32:36 -0500
From: RobertJ <pbsys at pbsbeer.com>
Subject: Re: Converted keg mashing vessel
Hop_Head at webtv.net wrote:
I am currently designing a all-grain recirculating system. I am trying
to decide if I should put the drain in the bottom of the mashing vessel
or go through the side and use a siphon type drain. Does anyone have any
opinion on which system is better? I would like to know the pro's and
con's of each system.
____
If you go through the bottom you will have wort trapped in the drain which
will easily carmelize when heated. It will also be more difficult to
support the keg
Bob
Precision Brewing Systems URL http://pbsbeer.com Manufacturer of 3 Vessel
Brew Systems, HERMS(tm), SS Brew Kettles, SS hopback and the MAXIchiller
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:37:55 -0800
From: larry matthews <lmatt at ipass.net>
Subject: 6% alcohol limit
A small cadre of NC homebrewers are planning to lobby our state General
Assembly to alter the current definition of beer as being below 6% by
volume. Most other states have no limit or a substantially higher limit in
their definition. Trying to do some research on where the 6% limit came
from. I know it was developed after the state Prohibition was ended in NC
in 1935 (yes, after the National repeal). However, nowhere have I found a
rationale for the 6%. Some states have an even lower 3.2% level. Can anyone
point me to some website or a written source that will discuss this
rationale. I believe this will give me some insight into how to approach
our appeal to the General Assembly.
Larry Matthews
Carboy/Trub Member
Raleigh, NC 27606
lmatt at ipass.net
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:43:14 -0500
From: fridgeguy at voyager.net
Subject: Ammonia fridges
Greetings folks,
In HBD# 3526, Marv asked about the use of a solar-powered ammonia
refrigerator in an effort to reduce the need for expensive
electricity.
Energy use (squandering energy!) has been hot-button issue for me for
many years. I feel the US as a country has been willfully and grossly
irresponsible in its energy use and policies, but I'll be good and not
digress into a rant :-)
Ammonia adsorbtion refrigeration has been around for a very long time
and is still commonly used in RV's since many models can be used with
multiple power(heat) sources. Several companies, some very old, make
full-sized domestic fridges for folks living off the power grid.
These systems work in a way similar to the fridges we all are
familiar with, except that they don't use an electric compressor.
Instead, they rely on the fact that water and ammonia have a great
affinity for one another.
A mixture of water and ammonia is used as the refrigerant. A heat
source is used to drive the ammonia out of solution. Heat is then
removed from the ammonia vapor, causing it to condense into a liquid.
The liquid ammonia flashes back into a vapor as it enters the
evaporator coil through an orifice. The other end of the evaporator
leads to the water reservoir. Ammonia is drawn through the evaporator,
gaining heat in the process as the ammonia is adsorbed into the water.
This process continues until the water and ammonia are fully
recombined.
This is usually done in a batch process in domestic units. Early
models used a wick-type kerosene lamp as a heat source. The lamp was
lit and burned until it ran out of fuel. The refrigeration process
began as the ammonia started to cool. This cycle is repeated as
necessary to maintain cabinet setpoint.
Any heat source could be used. RV units use propane or an electric
heater. Industrial/commercial units often use waste heat from
electrical or steam generation. One large bank office accross the
street from where I worked in California used a natural gas driven
turbine to generate electricity for the facility and used the
turbine's exhaust heat to heat water for space heating in winter
months, and to fuel adsorbers which provided air conditioning in
summer.
See the following URL for a diagram and description of one form of
adsorbtion system.
http://www.rvmobile.com/tech/Trouble/cooldoc.htm
I haven't kept up with what is currently available in today's
marketplace, but information should be available in alternate energy
or off-grid maillists or newsgroups.
Hope this helps!
- ----------------------------------------
Forrest Duddles - Fridgeguy in Kalamazoo
fridgeuy at voyager.net
- --
Is your email secure? http://www.pop3now.com
(c) 1998-2001 secureFront Technologies, Inc. All rights reserved.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 05:58:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve <gravelse at yahoo.com>
Subject: Aerating cane
Tom Smit writes:
>My last 3 brews I have aerated the wort before pitching by running it
from
>one fermenter to a second one about 1.5m below. A bottling tube in the
>tap of the first fermenter creates a nice tight stream of wort. By the
>time it is all run into the lower fermenter it has frothed up to the
top->plenty of aeration has happened & so far no infection.
Tom, I've been using this process for a long time and I have a suggestion
to make it even better. The racking cane I use has about 10 pin holes
(done with heated needle) starting about two inches (5.08 cm for those who
can't convert) from the top of the cane. This pulls air through the holes
as the wort passes. Just be careful, if the tip of the cane touches the
top of the wort a back pressure builds up and you'll have a wort
sprinkler. :^O Once I aerate using this method, I clean all of the trub
out of the bucket and pour from one bucket to another about four times to
increase the Oxygen in the wort. A.J. deLange posted this method back in
1996. He performed a test and found the following results:
No. Pours % Saturation
0 14%
1 49
2 71
3 82
4 91
5 96
I use this method to aerate the wort with no problems but, A.J. did add a
caution:
>This thus seems like a pretty good method of aeration but, of course, the
>wort is exposed not only to the oxygen in the air during this process but
>everything else as well.
>
>A.J. deLange Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
>ajdel at interramp.com
Just more information to digest. If anyone is interested in learning more
about oxygen and wort, do a search on "delange and oxygen*" in the back
issues of the HBD and you will be inundated with information.
SteveG
"Homebrew, it's not just a hobby, it's an adventure!"
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:24:29 -0500
From: Dan Listermann <72723.1707 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Phil's Phalse Bottom Material
<Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2001 14:35:29 -0600
From: Mark <infidel at springnet1.com>
Subject: Dumb question? Phils Phalse bottom
I was wondering whether on not the Phils Phalse bottom can be used in a
direct fired mash/lauter tun? Or will it deform considering it has some
contact with the kettle? And btw, what type of plastic is the Phils
Phalse bottom made of?>
Phil's' Phalse Bottom is made from polypropylene and I can tell you that
after almost ten years of making them that they do not deform ( I deform in
the the process of making them) until the temperature almost reaches 300 F.
This is very unlikely to be reached in a brew kettle even at the contact
point and even if steam is traped under the bottom. Steam of this
temperature would require more than 50 psi to hold it back. We have yet to
hear our first complaint about a bottom deforming due to boiling.
Dan Listermann
Check out our new E-tail site at www.listermann.com
Contribute to the anti-telemarketing forum - it is my new hobby!
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:29:31 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Hi
Hello everyone, just found out about the list.
Quick question for extract brewers, I was told recently that Laaglander DME
had a high percentage of unfermentable sugars in it (up to 50%).
I have used it for years and had no problems till my last batch. I was doing
an Ale with a can of M&F 3Lbs Laaglander DME and a quart of Sourwood Honey.
It ended up rather sweet with a final spgr of 1.010. I used one oz of
Goldings and 1z of saaz which normally gives me a good balance.
Any hints or ideas?
Thanks.
Steven
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:35:18 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: trapped CO2
Domenick Venezia posts ....
>>From: "Richard & Laura" <dromedary at worldnet.att.net>
>>Is there any way to (or even a reason to) try
>>to release the CO2 that is dissolved in [...]
>If your fermenter is closed, that is, has an airlock and all the
>original air has been scrubbed out by the fermentation, then you
>can "degas" the green beer by rousing the yeast.
...
>This will do 2 things. It will push the
>fermentation to the last few points, and the agitation will cause
>the dissolved CO2 to come out of solution.
Minor nit - but I have some good reasons to think this is
one thing and not two, Dom.
The removal of CO2 improves certain aspects of yeast
metabolism (CO2 inhibits certain enzymes) and I
think this and not mechanical stirring of the yeast is the
important factor in the improving the attenuation. There are
several studies that show dramatic improvement in attenuation
when inert "nucleation site" material is added to very high
gravity media.
The yeast flocc and drop, after growth conditions become
unfavorable, and the yeast's cell surface properties change
and the cells clump together. Mechanical rousing does not
improve the yeasts cell surfaces and probably doesn't even
break up the clumps. And certainly won't prevent reflocculation
of these surface-changed cells.
I suspect that the primary, maybe only value in rousing is to
remove CO2 and allow the less flocculent yeast a little more
growth and fermentation. Rousing to mechanically resuspend
already flocced yeast may be a bit like nailing your dead parrot
to his perch to make him seem more life-like.
Can anyone suggest a simple experiment to distinguish the
mechanical rousing vs CO2 concentration factors ? How to
remove CO2 w/o rousing, or rouse w/o removing CO2 ?
-Steve
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:50:25 -0600
From: The Freemans <potsus at Bellsouth.net>
Subject: drain placement
As a rule the placement of the drain will revolve around two parameters.
If you plan to heat the mash tun from below then a side drain is in
order. It usually is not a good idea to heat the attendent drain
plumbing.
If you plan to heat the mash tun by recirculation, then a bottom drain
is fine. However, a bottom drain will be an easy outlet for all the
small bits that get through the false bottom.
I think a side drain working on a siphon system is the better choice.
It is possible to put a screen on the drain inlet to filter out the
small bits as well as there WILL be some coming through the false
bottom.
Hope this helps.
Bill Freeman aka Elder Rat
K P Brewery - home of "the perfesser'
Birmingham, AL
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:50:39 -0500
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: "dry" method of batch sanitizing bottles
Marty needs a new method of sterilizing his bottles....
>I'm especially looking for a way to sanitize the bottles en
>masse, without rinsing.
[snip]
>So, I guess what I'm looking for is something like the
>dishwasher method without the dishwasher.
Radiation will do it. Plain old gamma irradiation.
BTW, how big is your backyard? ;-)
Aside from that and autoclaving, you're pretty much left with chemical and
dry heat methods of sterilizing. Dry heat is not a good choice for beer
bottles as these were most probably not designed to withstand repeated
cycles of heating to about 350F for extended periods of time. The glass
will probably stress and weaken, plus SWMBO will bitch that you've tied up
her oven for 3 hours. If you can stand the whining and are willing to
chance a bottle or two breaking on occasion then I'd try the following:
Cover each bottle neck with a single piece of aluminum foil. Load the
bottles into the oven and set it to WARM (lowest setting). Gradually raise
the temperature in 50 degree increments over the course of about an hour
until you reach 350F. Maintain heat for 1 hour. When cooling, drop the
temperature slowly too. Maybe not as slow as when heating, but don't just
turn the oven off and open the door. Leave that door closed until the
bottles are back down to room temp. This should work as it is the method I
use on occasion for PYREX glass and metals, however I really do reccomend
against it when using regular, non-tempered glass.
Since chemical methods are the best option for the homebrewer, you might
want to reconsider. First, forget the dishwasher. The only benefit you
will gain from a dishwasher is that the outsides of the bottles are really
clean and you might kill off a few of the less hearty critters using the
heated drying (sanitize) cycle. It's a mediocre sanitizer at best.
Technically, any process which causes a reduction in the microbial
population (no matter how small), is considered to be sanitizing. Since the
Bucket O' Sanitizer is out of the question you may want to point your
browser to our sponsor's catalog
http://www.northernbrewer.com/pdf/Catalog10.pdf
and check out pages 28 & 30 for possible alternatives. I would suggest
iodophor, a bottle tree and the bottle rinser (filled with iodophor). It
might take all day to do two cases of bottles, but it would be worth it to
avoid 15 minutes of grumbling by SWMBO.
As for splashing about, I'd suggest doing the sanitizing in the bathroom tub
or shower. If you spill sanitizer from your bucket, it's easy to clean up.
I added a diverter valve and hose to the shower head in our second bathroom
and this has become the beer cleaning station. But somehow whenever I fill
a fermenter with iodophor, SWMBO senses this and immediately wants to give
the baby a bath. There's no avoiding it and it must be done NOW. Actually,
any time you touch your beer stuff SWMBO will whine.
Carpe cerevisiae!
Glen Pannicke
http://www.pannicke.net
"Designs and schemes which work well on paper rarely do so in actual
practice."
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:54:47 -0600
From: Vachom <MVachow at newman.k12.la.us>
Subject: Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest Results and HSA
A couple of months back I promised to report on results from a new Wyeast
that I managed to get my hands on, 2633 Oktoberfest. I finally got around to
brewing with it in early November at which point the yeast was about 2.5
months old. The XL packet took two days to plump up--what one might expect
from its age. I built a half gallon starter across four days and pitched it
in 10 gallons of all grain export lager, OG 1.050.
The beer fermented efficiently in primary at 50F and finished in 10 days--FG
1.012. I did not perform a diacetyl rest and kept it in secondary in
stainless at 45F for two weeks. I did not rack the beer again before
bringing temps down to 38F for lagering.
I sneaked a little sip yesterday. The beer was clear in appearance, malty
but with a very satisfying crispness. To my tastebuds (not very diacetyl
sensitive), I don't think the beer suffered from the absence of a diacetyl
rest. I am very pleased with the flavor profile of this yeast. It's
crispness probably wouldn't make this a bock yeast, but I think it would be
an excellent yeast for helles, oktoberfests, pilseners, maybe even
CAPs.
As for HSA, I refer, of course, to Hampshire Special Ale, a truly excellent
holiday beer from D.L Geary. If you too are visiting your mother-in-law in
Maine (ahem), I highly recommend this BIG malty beer, unquestionably the
best of the holiday beers I had from the ME brewers. I apologize to those
punishment-gluttons who anticipated a return to the temple-throbbingly
boring topic that also uses this acronym.
Mike
New Orleans, LA
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:58:50 +0000
From: Keith Brown <bahalana at wt.net>
Subject: expiration dates, hops and chilling delay, stupid human tricks
Regarding the "expiration" date on yeast: This is I believe in all
cases the date of manufacture, not an expiration date. If you are an
American and subject to the onslaught of big beer advertising, call it
the "born on date". :-) Anyway, a minor point, but an important one,
because the yeast that was stamped October 2000 was not in fact four
months beyond it's supposed time of usefulness, but only four months
old, quite reasonable for a smack pack.
Regarding hop utilization and chilling delay: George, I assume the
delay you're talking about is caused only by the necessity to
whirlpool the hops before chilling in the CF. Maybe I'm naive, but I
use a strainer to get as much of the whole hops out of the pot (maybe
5 mins) as I reasonably can, then start the siphon through the CF and
strain again at the other end as it goes into the fermenter. The hops
pass right through the CF, no problem. About 15 minutes from the end
of the boil to pitching. No delay. If you were to use the immersion
chiller, you didn't worry about whirlpooling before racking to the
fermenter? What's the difference?
Regarding Beaverplt's egg-straordinary display of bravery (or
stupidity, same thing) in piquing the one person that has full and
total access to more fragile ovate objects while he sleeps: The lesson
I learned at a young age was "Don't start something you can't finish."
ROTFLMAO
- --
Keith Brown | I am a professional Air Traffic Controller --
bahalana at wt.net | There are hours when I may be overpaid,
web.wt.net/~bahalana | but there are seconds when you can't pay me
enough.
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:56:36 -0800
From: Mark Alfaro <malfaro at qcpi.com>
Subject: RE: Converted Keg Mashing Vessel
Hop_Head writes:
>I am currently designing a all-grain recirculating system. I am trying
>to decide if I should put the drain in the bottom of the mashing vessel
>or go through the side and use a siphon type drain. Does anyone have any
>opinion on which system is better? I would like to know the pro's and
>con's of each system.
Hi Hop_Head,
If you are planning on using a direct fired mash tun, you will have to go
through the side and use a siphon type drain. But, if you use an electric
heating chamber, you can use a center drain. I have never used a side drain
mash tun so I can't comment on their merit, but I will describe what has
worked for me.
For my mash tun, I cut the opening for the lid in the bottom of the keg. I
use the opening that formerly held the valve/siphon tube assembly as my
wort drain. I found a stainless steel tank "weld spud" fitting that fit the
diameter of the opening and had it TIG welded on at the end of the neck.The
weld spud has a 1/2" FPT opening in the center of it. I fabricated an
outlet manifold from 1/2" CU pipe which is shaped like a "T" this is
screwed into the weld spud. I have a QD fitting on the horizontal leg of
the tee to connect the inlet hose to my pump. The vertical leg of the tee
holds my thermocouple. Inside the tun, I use a stainless steel lint filter
from home depot which, when rolled a few times as you would a sock, fits
snugly in the center opening on the bottom. Over this, I place a home made
perforated stainless hinged false bottom. I used stainless steel standoffs
to position the false bottom even with the weld seam at the bottom. Under
the false bottom the concave shape of the tun drains perfectly to the
center. I have used this set up for over three years and have never had a
stuck mash, even when mashing with wheat. I insulated the tun with blue
sleeping pads and covered that with copper tape. For the lid of the mash
tun I used the cut out top from my converted Sanke kettle. I run the wort
return manifold through the siphon tube opening. The lid is also insulated
with sleeping pad foam. If you would like, I can email some pictures of the
setup.
Mark
Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:58:31 -0800
From: "Grant Knechtel" <gwk at hartcrowser.com>
Subject: Alconox
Bob Barrett asks in HBD 3526 if anyone has used
Alconox (tm) cleaner in beermaking and whether the
ingredients are compatible.
I have used it extensively as a basic detergent in
cleaning my craft brewing equipment. I get it very
"cheap" so it has been a cleaner of choice. Does
foam like crazy but rinses great. Since it rinses so
well have always figured ingredient compatibility
wasn't an issue but don't see anything in the ingredient
list posted which would seem incompatible in trace
amounts. We also use lots of it in our soils lab
and have never noted a problem relative to any
material we clean, everything from stainless to glass,
plastics and even wood. If the price is right, go for
it!
Hope this helps, and Prost!
-LabRat
Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei
Des Moines, WA, USA
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:08:59 -0600
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: beer stone and five star products
Peter, I am happy you have found fivestar products to do well on the
beerstone in your kegs, I have been using it for about two years now and am
very happy with it (yadayadaetcetc). But you can re-use the solutions and
cut the costs. I typically wait until I have several kegs to clean and just
transfer the solutions from one to the next. I have used PBW in up to 5
containers (feremntors and kegs) and have used the star san in a similar
number, but you can test the pH (good as long as it is lower than 3.0)to see
when it needs to be refreshed or just observe that it is cloudy.
Hope this helps stretch you chemical dollars,
Rich Sieben
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:36:56 -0800 (PST)
From: "John B. Doherty" <dohertybrewing at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Experience with Alconox for cleaning
Bob,
I've been using Alconox to clean my beer equipment for about 6 years now.
First got hold of some in grad school, and now its plentiful here at work.
I've seen no ill effects on anything with the possible exception that it
makes vinyl tubing turn hazy if you soak it too long. I have a hell of a time
cleaning my 1" dia. blow off tubes without soaking them in Alconox for a few
days.
Its the best thing I've found to clean "ring around the collar" from my carboys
- just let the carboy soak overnight with warm Alconox in it. Seems to work
just as well for cornies too - but it does seem to make the rubber foot of the
corny a little "softer" if you get some solution on the rubber. I've left
some skid marks in the bathtub with the foot of a corny that had Alconox on it
(a la sneaker marks), but they scrub right off. I also use it as a most
effective de-labeling solution. As for HDPE and other plastics, I store my
extra solution in 5 gallon buckets and I've left plastic racking canes in
Alconox for a long time without a problem.
For copper, it will dissolve the oxide layer from the surface, so I limit the
soaks of my immersion chiller to about 30 minutes. The Alconox solution starts
to turn green-blue as the oxides come off the copper.
All in all, I really like Alconox / Fisher Sparkleen and related lab glassware
cleaners for brewing use. Just rinse the item with hot water, then cold,then
sanitize with iodophor as usual.
Cheers,
-John Doherty
> > Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2001 12:22:45 -0500
> > From: "Barrett, Bob (R.A.)" <rbarrett at ford.com>
> > Subject: Experience with Alconox
> >
> > Has anyone had any experience using Alconox for cleaning their brewing
> > equipment
> > (carboys, stainless, plastic, etc)? This is an industrial cleaner for the
> > pharmaceutical,
> > laboratory, medical device and food and dairy industries. The literature
> > says it is safe for all
> > the types of materials we use for brewing (glass, copper, stainless,
> > plastic, rubber, etc). It is
> > biodegradable.
> ...
> > Bob Barrett
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos - Share your holiday photos online!
> http://photos.yahoo.com/
>
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 12:31:55 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: historic unhopped beer website
Brewers
It was suggested via private email that brewers might like to know
about the archives for hist-brewing on Greg Lindahl's Medieval
Brewing site http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/brewing.html
Jeff
- --
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, c/o nerenner at umich.edu
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:51:38 -0600
From: "Richard Sieben" <sier1 at email.msn.com>
Subject: troubleshooting
Alan, I don't believe that sodium Metabisulphite can be used as a cleaner,
but is a sanitizer that is used in winemaking. I don't know the source of
your water and whether or not it is treated with chlorine or are you getting
it out of you own well? Best bet is to use some no rinse sanitizer after
you clean. If possible can you get the fivestar products (personal
favorite) PBW to clean and Star San to sanitize? If not, maybe Straight 'A'
cleaner followed by iodophor for sanitizing. What I am getting at is it may
be some chemical carryover getting into the beer or something in your rinse
water. Also you don't want to use bleach in you stainless kegs and stuff,
it will eventually eat throught the stainless.
Do you have a water analysis available? and did you use any water
treatments, I didn't see any in your notes, so I don't know what kind of
water we are working with. Maybe most importantly, does your water taste
good to drink? I found that beers that I treated with gypsum tended to have
a harsh bitterness that I didn't like, with my tap water.
>From what your mash notes indicate, you are making an awfully thin mash and
maybe that is affecting your enzymes ability to work, it looks to be 2
qts/lb or so. try cutting your mash in water by at least 25% if you can, I
know with a RIMS, you need a bit thinner mash to pump around, but with the
volumes you are dealing with, you may even be able to cut it by 50% and
still be able to pump around.
there seem to be two temperature regimes listed in your post, but if you are
truly increasing your mash to 175F, that is too high and sparging with 180F
water is also too high and you may be leaching some tannins out of the grain
husks, which could give an unpleasant bitterness or really grain
astrignency.
I was not clear on what you meant by 'Goldings 60- 15- 10....' How much
goldings in each addition, if those are times in boil, or are those grams
and then for how long. Also how long were the 30grams of fuggles in?
Anyone else who has ideas, please feel free to chime in! Alan we can get
this figured out yet, otherwise things look ok.
Rich Sieben
Island Lake, IL
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 13:36:54 -0500
From: "Larry Maxwell" <larrymax at bellsouth.net>
Subject: more on sanitizing with alcohol
Fatcat had some authoritative-sounding advice on the
alcohol-as-sanitizer thread. His answer implying that ethyl
alcohol (grain alcohol) ought to work pretty well as a sanitizer
for our purposes even with only a 30 second contact time
made me think of this question: What are the implications of
a sanitizing system that uses pressure to SPRAY alcohol
into an inverted fermenter or corny keg for, say, a few minutes?
The idea is that the alcohol drips out, is collected, and could
be used again or even recirculated. If this "spray-sanitizing"
makes sense, could it be done equally well with iodophor, or
would that require too long a contact (spray) time? Or is there
some inherent problem with spraying a sanitizer as opposed to
soaking in it? (Perhaps the pump should be air-powered or
otherwise sparkproof if using alcohol.) I would love to have a
gadget/method that allows me to avoid having to mix, let sit,
and then awkwardly lift and dump into my kitchen sink five
gallons of iodophor solution if only, say, a quart of alcohol
would do the trick if sprayed and recirculated. SIP--sanitize in
place! BTW, what do commercial breweries use? Steam?
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 11:19:18 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: re: trapped CO2
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001, Stephen Alexander wrote:
>The removal of CO2 improves certain aspects of yeast
>metabolism (CO2 inhibits certain enzymes) and I
>think this and not mechanical stirring of the yeast is the
>important factor in the improving the attenuation. There are
>several studies that show dramatic improvement in attenuation
>when inert "nucleation site" material is added to very high
>gravity media.
>
> <snip>
>
>Can anyone suggest a simple experiment to distinguish the
>mechanical rousing vs CO2 concentration factors ? How to
>remove CO2 w/o rousing, or rouse w/o removing CO2 ?
This is intriguing to me and makes intuitive sense. CO2 is
powerful stuff to us aerobes and probably to faculative aerobes
too. Steve, do you have the reference(s)? Seems to me one could
add inert nucleation sites with a handful or two of quartz chips,
boiled gravel, or used bottlecaps. Why doesn't the trub act as
nucleation sites?
PrimeTab usage is sensitive to the initial CO2 content of the
green beer, which is why I suggest vigorous rousing in the instructions.
The tabs are efficient nucleation sites and if bottling is attempted
straight from the fermenter with no rousing, the beer can hit
the tabs and foam considerably. If throwing in some gravel or
used bottle caps would actually keep the CO2 content down to
acceptable levels, I would have an alternate, painless, fussless
way for users to degas their green beer.
As for an experiment to test the hypothesis, use 2 corny kegs as
fermenters. The hypothesis is, "Higher CO2 content will inhibit yeast
metabolism leading to higher finishing gravity." Brew a batch and split it
between the cornies. The control would have an airlock fitted and
would be roused daily morning and evening or more. The other would use a
pressure relief valve set to 15 lbs, or just a pressure gauge and bled off
to 15 lbs every morning and evening. This would maintain the minimum CO2
content of the beer to 2 volumes. If one wishes to try three volumes use a
pressure of 30 lbs. After 2 weeks withdraw SG samples from both cornies,
completely degas the samples by shaking, then measure the SG. To ensure
statistical validity repeat the experiment a few dozen times.
Some caveats: pitch yeast before splitting the batch between the kegs.
Be certain to split the trub evenly between kegs. Not difficult if
the carboy is shaken up then a gallon poured into each keg, then
the carboy shaken up and a gallon poured into each keg in the reverse
order, then the carboy shaken up and the last split between the kegs.
Maintain the kegs side-by-side at the same ambient conditions.
Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152 phone
(206) 782-6766 fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:28:18 -0600
From: "Daniel C Stedman" <"daniel_c_stedman" at uhc.com>
Subject: That's not a gasket!
In case you didn't know, those plastic picnic taps that people use for
dispensing beer out of kegs can be taken apart by unscrewing the tap handle from
the body. If you haven't been taking yours apart for cleaning, you might be
surprised at what you find inside. I only figured this out after noticing that
beer was only coming out of a fraction of my tap. Looking in through the end, I
saw something brown plugging it up that looked like a disintegrating gasket. So
while trying to yank the "gasket" out, I noticed you could unscrew the tap. So
unscrew it I did, and sure enough I had a nice little brown rubbery gasket that
was just starting to fall apart. However, upon closer inspection of my other,
cleaner tap, I've come to the realization that it was actually mold. Yummy...
So now I am torn - my beer has been getting better and better since I started.
My last two batches are honestly better than 95% of the commercial microbrews
that I have ever had. But perhaps it was the ever-increasing amount of mold in
my tap that made it taste so good? I would hate to spoil a good thing by
cleaning out my friend the brown gasket. What do you think?
Dan in Minnetonka
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 16:42:16 -0500
From: "Mark Nelson" <menelson at mindspring.com>
Subject: Regarding Efforts in Georgia to Change Legal Beer Definition
Julio, and others that might be interested,
We are still actively pursuing changing the definition of beer in Georgia.
In fact, Friday we will be meeting with our sponsoring legislator and more
formally putting a plan of attack together.
See www.beerinfo.com/worldclassbeer for more information and updates during
this legislation session.
Mark Nelson
Atlanta GA
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 15:45:09 -0600
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Beer School
Thought I would try a beer related post. Copied this from "Real Beer Mail"
Might be of interest to some.
DESCHUTES OPENS INTERNET BEER SCHOOL
Oregon's Deschutes Brewery begins an ongoing educational beer series at
its website on Jan. 16. The first in a series of four classes opens
with a close look at porter, with pale ale (Feb. 1), stout (Feb. 16)
and ESB (March 1) to follow. Brewmaster Bill Pengelly will be answering
questions from visitors.
http://www.deschutesbrewery.com
Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 18:04:51 -0500
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Announcing: Inaugural meeting of the Toronto homebrew club
howdy fellow brewers,
i'm happy to announce that we will be having the inaugural meeting of
the newly created Toronto homebrew club. we discussed establishing
such a club at the last CABA AGM and i volunteered to host the first
meeting.
the purpose of this meeting, besides sampling each other's beer, will
be to meet each other, come up with a name for the club and plan what
we want the club to do.
here are some details:
Date: Saturday, January 27th, 2001.
When: 8 p.m.
Where: my house - email me for directions (i'm near downtown Toronto)
What to bring:
yourself, homebrew to share if you have it (CO2 is available if you
want to bring a keg), ideas for the club, and $5 to cover snack items
that will be provided.
slainte,
patrick in Toronto
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Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 20:36:51 EST
From: Epic8383 at aol.com
Subject: \Expiration dates
Beaverpelt-
You oughta question your swmbo's expiration date, then dispose of her.
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Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2001 13:03:28 +1100
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Understanding Aussies (and their beer!)
Hi all
Don't want to wade into the culture debate, but non-Aussies might find this
page helpful for understanding Aussies, their pubs, their history and their
beer.
http://www.australianbeers.com/
Looks best at 1024x768 - might have to scroll the right hand frame over a
bit to see the tasteful bottlecap 'Prev' and 'Next' button on some pages at
800x600.
Click on the 'Australian People' link for a useful guide to Aussie phenomena
like bludging, shouting, piking, shielas, poms and bignoting, or learn the
meaning of obscure terms like 'fair dinkum'. Most of the articles are
chokkas with links to other bits of Aussie-ness not on the main pages, like
yakka, yabber, yobbo and Bob Hawke :).
Cheers
...Matt...
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