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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Computers in HB & the Wonder of the Steam Age (Tom smit)
Oops & steam age (Tom smit)
Pumps ("Bill Frazier")
Dropping time (Tom smit)
Peristaltic pump source ("Fred L. Johnson")
dry sanitizing + tasting notes (Smallaxe27)
Looking for Pyramid Snowcap Clone ("Bernd Neumann")
Eighth Annual America's Finest City Homebrew Competition ("Peter Zien")
Resources needed (Ray Kruse)
Homemade Peristaltic Pump (Ken Schwartz)
Speaking of Andy Walsh ... (Demonick)
RE: Recirculation problems with RIMS (Paul Shick)
Phil's bottom and polypropolyene ("Eric Ahrendt")
Re: Peristaltic pump source ("Sean Richens")
fermentation cabinet (Doniese)
Bad Boy On Holidays ("Helen Pay")
Re: 6% alcohol limit (Jay Pfaffman)
HSA is good for beer? (Jim Adwell)
Yahoo! Finance Story - Yahoo - StarLink contamination found in beer ingredient-FDA (Yahoo! Finance)
re: dropping (aeration really) ("Stephen Alexander")
Dishwashing scum ("William Graham")
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Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:30:57 +0000
From: Tom smit <tom at lunica-data.com.au>
Subject: Computers in HB & the Wonder of the Steam Age
Hi all,
First, a question. Does anyone know of a decent HB software program for
Macintosh computers? (Other than Brewmeister)
Does anyone use a computer to *do* something to or with their homebrew? I
mean monitor temperature or flow rate and turn heating or cooling or pumps on
and off, or even just to track the length of a mash or boil and remind you to
step the temp up for the next stage of a step infusion or dedoction mash?
Reading G Wheeler & Protz's books about homebrewers not having the time to
attend frequently to their brews throughout the night & day I thought of how
cheap a computer of only 3 or 4 years ago can be picked up for a song.
I bought an old Macintosh IIci (a '386 equiv machine) into which I can plug
some Analog to Digital (& D to A) boards. Using these in my home brewing
definitely intrigues me. *** DAYDREAM MODE _ON_ ***. If Yorkshire yeasts make
such great beers surely someone can create the HB equivalent of a Yorkshire
Stone Square & build in a few switches etc to let this run with only
occasional human supervision? *** DAYDREAM MODE _OFF_ *** The gadget freak
within me reads posts/sites re RIMS/HERMS etc avidly. Surely that is a dead
certainty for computerisation???
Cheers
Tom Smit
Tiny Horses Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 17:33:50 +0000
From: Tom smit <tom at lunica-data.com.au>
Subject: Oops & steam age
Pressed Send key too soon. Somebody mentioned that they use steam for
increasing mash temps. Sounds like a good idea to me. Could the poster kindly
email me with a few more details of his Wonder of the Steam Age?
Cheers
Tom Smit
Tiny Horses Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 14:54:06 -0600
From: "Bill Frazier" <billfrazier at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Pumps
Sean Richens wants a peristaltic pump but finds the prices a bit high.
Sean, I busted my rib cage back in 96 and faced an end to my brewing
(lifting carboys was out of the question). So, I bought a peristaltic pump
from Barnant Company for about $300.00. It's a complete unit with speed
control that can pump over 2 liters per minute so you can empty a carboy in
less than 10 minutes. Probably the best brewing money I've spent not even
considering my old injury. I use this thing every time I brew or make wine.
Now if you don't want to spend the $300 call up Barnant and talk to one of
their engineers. They are very helpful. Just tell them what you are doing
and they will fix you up. I'm sure you can just buy the pump head and hook
it up to an electric motor you might have or could acquire. Shouldn't be
too hard and the price should be well under $100. I've found that you do
have to use Barnant tubing. The local hardware tubing can't handle the
stress of the rotors and ruptures. I get over a year out of Barnant tubing.
Of course you already know the beauty of peristaltic pumps. Nothing touches
the wort or beer except the inside of tubing that fits in the pump, which is
easy to sanitize with iodophor.
Sounds like I'm a salesman for Barnant but I just like their pump. Barnant
Company phone in the US or Canada 800-637-3739. Web site
<http://www.barnant.com>. Email <barnant at mc.net>
Regards,
Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 19:01:17 +0000
From: Tom smit <tom at lunica-data.com.au>
Subject: Dropping time
Glen makes a good point re Dr Cone's 14 hr dropping schedule
> Dr. Cone had much useful knowledge to share and I'm sure a lot of it came
> from the commercial manufacture of beer, not a homebrewer's scale.
G Wheeler in "Home Brewing" states that commercial conical fermenters can
'ferment a typical beer in 48 hours' In homebrew we should therefore drop
rather later, especially those of us doing only 5gal batches. I guess this is
when foam has just covered the top of the wort, or 24 hours?
Tom Smit
Tiny Horses Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 04:54:08 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Peristaltic pump source
Sean Richens is looking for a peristaltic pump that won't cost him an arm
and a leg. I have found (and purcharsed) Masterflex pumps at LabX.com for a
small fraction of their cost new. You can also find other brands here also.
Another potential source is your local university's surplus warehouse. (I
love these places.)
I have used Masterflex pumps for many years and have never had a problem
with them. (No affiliation.) You can also get new ones from Cole-Parmer,
who unlike some other big scientific supply houses will set up an individual
account for you. Oh, and most importantly, Masterflex pumps use a large
variety of interchangeable pump heads. Most of the older Masterflex pump
heads are designed to use only certain size tubing, so you choose a pump
head depending upon the range of flows that you will need to achieve.
Masterflex now makes additional pump heads which will accept many tubing
sizes. If you do purchase a Masterflex with an older style pump head (which
is likely if you're picking one up second hand), you really should use the
tubing designed for these pumpheads, which is also available from
Cole-Parmer, of course. You can check all this out at Cole-Parmer's
website, although a regular paper catalog is much quicker to use.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 10:04:02 EST
From: Smallaxe27 at aol.com
Subject: dry sanitizing + tasting notes
Just wanted to add my 2 cents worth.
I've used the oven method for almost a decade now
without any problems or complaints so far.
I use 350 F for one hour (no gradual step up, just
fire away) and cool with the oven door closed. I haven't yet
had any bottles shatter when I stick to returnables.
It's been my experience that if the foil caps are undisturbed,
I can let the bottles sit for over a year and they will still
be good to go!
On an unrelated note, I had to share this story with the group.
A friend of mine who I recently introduced to homebrewing,
took a lady friend of his out for a beer. Thinking he'd show her
what we get exited over about better beers, he ordered
a Chimay red. Said lady had a taste and said
"mmm, tastes kinda like Budweiser!"
Steve G.
Smallaxe Brewery
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 16:08:43 -0000
From: "Bernd Neumann" <homebrewz at hotmail.com>
Subject: Looking for Pyramid Snowcap Clone
Hi,
Anyone have a good Pyramid Snowcap Ale clone receipe?
-Bernd Neumann
KB2EBE
Middleburgh, NY
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:24:27 -0800
From: "Peter Zien" <pz.jdzinc at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Eighth Annual America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
Dear HBD Brewers,
Please consider participating in the following Homebrew Competition:
Eighth Annual America's Finest City Homebrew Competition
San Diego, California
March 2 & 3, 2001
Entry window February 5-23, 2001
Complete rules and convenient on-line registration for contestants, BJCP
judges, and stewards at the Competition website: www.softbrew.com/afchbc/
Contact Peter Zien (pz.jdzinc at worldnet.att.net) for a hard copy of the entry
packet.
Sponsored by the Quality Ale & Fermentation Fraternity (QUAFF)
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 11:30:46 -0500
From: Ray Kruse <rkruse at bigfoot.com>
Subject: Resources needed
I'm looking for an all grain brewer in the Birmingham/Pelham area of
Alabama who would be willing to donate some spent grain.
Just to satisfy the curious, I make dog biscuits from some of my spent
grain and recently sent some to my sister. Her dog loved them and she
wants to try her hand at making some, but she doesn't brew, and the
crushing/mashing/sparging process is more than she wants to go through.
Please contact me directly.
Thanks
Ray Kruse
Glen Burnie, PRMd
rkruse at krusecontrols.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 09:45:01 -0700
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Homemade Peristaltic Pump
Sean Richens wants a cheap peristaltic pump.
Disclaimer: I have not built this nor have I even thought it through
but it might get ya started.
Get one of those slow speed, high torque motors like the ones used for
Mix Mashers.
At the end of the shaft, attach a square of plywood. On this square of
plywood you have installed four small casters exactly in the center of
the four edges. You have also cut off at 45 degrees as much of the
corners off as possible, leaving just enough flat edge to mount the
casters. (since the corners stick out farther than the edges, we have
to clear these back).
On the base to which the motor is mounted, you have attached another
piece of plywood, with a concave circular cutout. The radius of the
cutout is exactly the same as the distance from the shaft center to the
outermost point on the caster wheels (all four wheels ideally the same
distance). The circular cutout spans maybe 120 degrees of arc, and the
cutout is mounted perpendicular to the motor shaft, using two long
screws and a spring. The spring is place between the cutout and the
base so that you can press on the cutout and it will pop back to
position. This will allow adjustment and provide back-pressure against
the casters (see below). The center of the cutout arc should coincide
as closely as possible to the center of the motor shaft.
Use silicone tubing, laid into the circular edge of the cutout. Maybe
it will stay by itself, maybe you have to restrain it. Silicone is used
because it's heat resistant, inert, and soft & flexible. Check
http://www.mcmaster.com for this stuff.
How it (supposedly) works:
Now as the motor turns the casters meet the tubing, first pressing into
it till it's flat, then rolling along the cutout arc, pushing the
contents along. Before one caster leaves the cutout arc, the next
engages, so the contents are always moving as long as the motor is
turning. The spring mounting of the cutout ensures that a tight
pressure exists between the cutout and the caster and takes up any error
in construction dimensions.
Flow rate is determined by motor speed, cutout radius, and tubing
diameter.
I leave the rest up to y'all.
- --
*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:45:21 -0800
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Speaking of Andy Walsh ...
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
> ... I owe thanks to Andy Walsh for sending
> several of the paper's supporting this view. ...
Any of you Aussies seen or heard from Andy Walsh? He was the original
Aussie on this group IIRC. I met him once in Oz in Jan 95, and Dave &
Chryl Draper (when he was there), Ken & Evi Willing, and Chris Pittock -
fine folk all. Welcomed me into their home (Willing's) and city (Sydney)
and didn't make too much fun of my accent.
Andy, Ken, Chris, (I know where Dave is) if you're lurking out there
contact me and let me know y'all are hardy and hale and still full of piss
& vinegar & vegemite (http://www.ozchannel.com/vegemite/vegemite.html).
Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152 phone
(206) 782-6766 fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:48:32 -0500
From: Paul Shick <shick at jcu.edu>
Subject: RE: Recirculation problems with RIMS
Hello all,
Now that my brewery is finally up and running at the new
house, I feel I've earned the right to participate in the HBD again.
Five-plus months away seems like a long time...
Nathan Kanous writes about his reasons for wanting to
recirculate during his mash (all good ones!) and his problems with
compacting the grain bed while doing so. He asks if it matters
if he recirculates through the compacted bed as best he can, then
stop for a mashout, stir the bed to uncompact it, then sparge as
usual.
Nathan, I'm pretty sure that stirring the bed will undo
any clarification you achieved during your recirculation, kicking
loose lots of particulates as you loosen up the bed. Unless you
recirculate enough to let the grain bed filter these out, your
problems with wort clarification aren't likely to go away. My
suggestion would be to try to go with the low pump flow rate that
you mentioned. Unless you're running a heating device (burner or
electric) that risks scorching the wort, I can't see any drawbacks
to keeping the wort recirculating slowly. Even with a natural gas
jet burner going (on low,) my system seems to work well at about
one half to one gallon per minute, with no signs of scorching. These
sorts of rates should be low enough to avoid compacting all but the
most finicky mashes (those with large quantities of oatmeal, for
example.) A slow recirc rate should still give you the kind of clarity
you're looking for, and has the added benefit of being less susceptible
to HSA problems. (I can't believe I raised that issue in my first
post back!)
Good luck sorting out your pump problems, Nathan. Can you
let us know how things work out?
Paul Shick
Basement brewing (at last) in
Cleveland Heights, OH
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:50:29 -0500
From: "Eric Ahrendt" <rock67 at peoplepc.com>
Subject: Phil's bottom and polypropolyene
In HBD #3527 Dan comments:
"Phil's' Phalse Bottom is made from polypropylene and I can tell you that
after almost ten years of making them that they do not deform ( I deform in
the the process of making them) until the temperature almost reaches 300 F.
This is very unlikely to be reached in a brew kettle even at the contact
point and even if steam is traped under the bottom. Steam of this
temperature would require more than 50 psi to hold it back. We have yet to
hear our first complaint about a bottom deforming due to boiling."
First off, this is certainly not meant to be a criticism of Dan's products -
certainly he knows more about them than anyone and I'm sure that his claim
of no complaints is true. Actually, I've never seen a Phil's Phalsie.
However, polypropylene is a borderline material choice for this application.
Depending on the grade and filler, the heat deflection temperature of
polypro isn't too much higher than boiling. HDT depends on stress, and I
guess we can say that there is little or no stress on the false bottom
during the boil. At any rate, the boiling temp of the sugary wort solution
is pushing the limit of polypropylene.
Once again, not a criticism. Obviously many hours or real life testing have
proven the material properties to be adequate in this application. I simply
wanted to point out the limitations of polypro as I am all too painfully
aware of them. I can't say any more since my customer is certainly
listening. I'm sure that Dan uses the material for the same reasons my
employer does - it's cost and processability make it very attractive.
Eric Ahrendt
Fremont, OH
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 12:00:23 -0600
From: "Sean Richens" <srichens at sprint.ca>
Subject: Re: Peristaltic pump source
Thank you to Fred, Kevin and Eddy for their input. Cole-Parmer can start
out pretty cheap, but even one extra bell or whistle (and who can refuse?!)
gets the price screaming up.
Bill at Moving Brews is proposing a nice little diaphragm pump, which should
be sanitizable enough. It also has adequate "gadget factor" for a closet
gear head.
Sean
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 15:10:19 EST
From: Doniese at aol.com
Subject: fermentation cabinet
I have a question for Forrest (FridgeGuy), or anyone else with experience in
such things.
Living where I do (in the Pacific Northwest), and fermenting where I do (my
garage), maintaining the proper fermentation temperature for my ales is, for
most of the year, a matter of keeping the temperature warm enough. I solved
this by building a simple insulated fermentation cabinet, and heating this
with a very small forced air heater (through a duct). It has worked well for
me so far.
Soon I will be moving to a larger (10 gal) SS conical. I will be building a
larger cabinet, constructed and insulated using the same design as Forrest
used for his cold room (see HBD around July if you missed it - very
informative). I'll be using the same method for heating, but would like to
add the option of cooling for summer months and the occasional lager.
My idea is to make it possible to attach my small (maybe 3.5 cubic ft) dorm
fridge to the cabinet (details for a good seal are yet to be worked out).
The fridge itself is relatively new and in good condition. The cabinet
inside dimensions will be approximately 24 x 24 x 50, or nearly 17 cu. ft.
For temperature control, I'll use my Brewer's Edge Controller II, with the
temp. probe in a thermowell in the side of the fermentor.
My questions are these: assuming (eek) a well sealed and insulated cabinet,
what sort of temperatures could this set-up maintain? Can it handle
maintaining primary fermentation temperatures of 10 gal of a lager beer with
an ambient temp outside the cabinet of, say 75 degreesF? (Hey, it happens
occasionally here). What sort of problems might I expect? Any alternate
suggestions? I'd appreciate any ideas or suggestions anyone can give.
Oh, and for the record, I hope that all on the HBD realize our luck in having
a guy like Forrest around, who not only is very knowledgeable in a subject
that is important to us, but has freely shared his knowledge. It's folks
like this that make the HBD invaluable to hombrewers of all levels!! Thanks
Forrest!
Private Emails are welcome, or reply to the digest if you like.
Craig Jensen
Wa. State
Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 08:58:56 +1100
From: "Helen Pay" <hpay at optusnet.com.au>
Subject: Bad Boy On Holidays
Homebrewing is a safe hobby. At least when I am at home testing a new brew,
giving it a nudge or what ever you like to use to describe perhaps having a
few more than you should, I can't get into too much trouble. Rarely do I
wonder far from the garage where my fridges are kept. Well I don't need to,
the best beer in the world (your own) lives there. But on holidays, well
even the best intentioned homebrewer is cast adrift.
I am not the most popular boy in the house at the moment. Having gone out on
Friday night to the Avalon Bowling Club for a few quick beers I failed to
return at the appointed time. In fact I failed to return at all. My
intensions were pure but unknown to me I was to be the victim of what can
only be described as a premeditated and most vicious attack carried out in
series by an endless stream of old friends. I was forced to drink just one
more Tooheys Old and one more Tooheys Old and one more Tooheys Old
and.........so it went on.
Hungry and miserable, with all communications with mother shut down (she
turned off the phone) I stumbled the streets way out on the wrong side of
midnight hoping for a taxi to get me home. What miserable bit of the night
that was left I spent on the lounge which has put my neck out horribly. I
have been a bad boy and I am suffering.
Jill's silence is causing me more bother than my neck.
But Phoebe still loves me.
Thank God for little daughters.
I will be glad to get home to the safety of my homebrew!!
Cheers
Phil
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 13:50:00 -0600
From: Jay Pfaffman <pfaffman at relaxpc.com>
Subject: Re: 6% alcohol limit
Though some might couch it differently, my understanding is that the
rationale for limiting the strength of beer was to keep poor people
from being able to be able to get drunk inexpensively. So the reason
that you can't buy Chimay is that someone didn't like people drinking
inexpensive malt liquors.
In Tennessee the %5 or %6 limit is still in place, but wine/liquor
stores now carry strong beers. Here beer can be sold in supermarkets
or beer stores, but wine and liquor must be sold in stores which sell
only wine and liquor. It may be easier to have strong beers sold as
wine than to have the definition of beer changed.
On Wed, 10 Jan 2001 08:37:55 -0800, larry matthews <lmatt at ipass.net> said:
> A small cadre of NC homebrewers are planning to lobby our state General
> Assembly to alter the current definition of beer as being below 6% by
> volume. Most other states have no limit or a substantially higher limit in
> their definition. Trying to do some research on where the 6% limit came
> from. I know it was developed after the state Prohibition was ended in NC
> in 1935 (yes, after the National repeal). However, nowhere have I found a
> rationale for the 6%. Some states have an even lower 3.2% level. Can anyone
> point me to some website or a written source that will discuss this
> rationale. I believe this will give me some insight into how to approach
> our appeal to the General Assembly.
> Larry Matthews
> Carboy/Trub Member
> Raleigh, NC 27606
> lmatt at ipass.net
- --
Jay Pfaffman pfaffman at relaxpc.com
+1-615-343-1720 (office) +1-615-460-9299 (home)
http://relax.ltc.vanderbilt.edu/~pfaffman/
Return to table of contents
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 20:00:11 -0500
From: Jim Adwell <jimala2 at ptd.net>
Subject: HSA is good for beer?
At the risk of opening up the debate about HSA again ( which is NOT my
intention), I came across an interesting piece of information in a
turn-of-the-century brewing book, and share it with you now. My motive in
this is to find out if anyone else interested in old brewing practices has
seen anything similar in other books (Jeff Renner, for example), or uses
this technique in their own brewing. I don't have any idealogical horse to
flog either for or against it.
>From The Cambridge University Press:
The Cambridge Manuals of Science and Literature - Brewing
published 1912
by A. Chaston Chapman
President of the Institute of Brewing
Fellow of the Institute of Chemistry of Great Britain and Ireland
Fellow of the Chemical Society
>From Chapter V - Cooling, pages 66-67:
"In the majority of breweries at the present day, both a cooler and a
refrigerator are employed, but sometimes the cooler is done away with
entirely or is replaced by a deep receiving vessel, a system which has much
to recommend it, as I shall show later. It should be said, however, that
the cooling of the wort is not quite the only function of the cooler.
Certain of the constituents of the wort have the property of absorbing
oxygen from the air at tolerably high temperatures, and this 'hot aeration'
as it is called, to distinguish it from the cold aeration or absorbtion of
oxygen by the cold wort while passing over the refrigerator, is very
generally regarded as beneficial. It is true that some authorities have
questioned its importance, but I think there is a general consensus of
opinion that these more or less obscure oxidation changes are desirable and
that they do exert an appreciable effect on the brightening capacity of the
finished beer. It is fortunate, however, that these changes occur most
actively at elevated temperatures, - about 180F., and it is very doubtful
whether much if any advantage in this direction is gained by allowing the
temperature of the wort on the cooler to fall below, - say 160F. A further
function of the cooler is to permit of the deposition of the coagulated
protein matters from the cooling wort and to leave the bulk of these behind
when the wort is run down over the refrigerator. This insoluble deposit is
technically known as the 'cooler sludge.' There can be no doubt that if
the wort on the cooler could be reduced to a comparatively low temperature
under conditions rendering bacterial infection impossible, the shallow
vessel of large area has much in its favor. In practice, however, this is
very difficult, and many brewers have found that they can secure the main
benefits of a cooler without its serious drawbacks by substituting for it a
deeper vessel of much smaller area. By spraying the wort pumped from the
hop-back into such a vessel sufficient 'hot aeration' is secured, and if it
is not possible to keep the protein sludge back as completely as with a
cooler, the advantages on the score of diminished infection are so great as
to render this consideration of little importance. Above 150F the wort is
practically sterile, and the brewer should endeavour by every means in his
power to ensure that the temperature of the wort when it reachs the
refrigerator shall not be appreciably lower."
Notes:
"Cooler" refers to a cool-ship, i.e. a shallow pan of large area open to
the outside air, and "refrigerator" refers to artifical cooling, whether by
cold water or ammonia.
I have left this as found, with no paragraph breaks; the book tends to have
paragraphs 10 or more pages long. Overall, this small book is quite
interesting, providing a concise overview of brewing in England circa 1912,
and a few surprises, too. :)
Cheers, Jim
Jim's Brewery Pages:
http://home.ptd.net/~jimala/brewery/
Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 05:13:31 -0800
From: Yahoo! Finance <refertofriend at reply.yahoo.com>
Subject: Yahoo! Finance Story - Yahoo - StarLink contamination found in beer ingredient-FDA
Darrell Leavitt (leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu) has sent you a news article
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Personal message:
Yahoo - StarLink contamination found in beer ingredient-FDA
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/010112/n12640670.html
============================================================
Yahoo! Finance http://finance.yahoo.com/
Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:08:50 -0500
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: dropping (aeration really)
Der Pivo sez ..
<<
The upshot of this was, that overoxygenating in the beginning (as is often
reccommended here) actually leads to premature beer staling, as while eager
to absorbe oxygen, the yeast are certainly not putting EVERY molecule into
sterol synthesis (this should be inherently obvious, but I shall leave the
enzyme kinetecists to scratch their heads over it), and will oxidise things
that you may not want getting oxidised.
Perhaps the most reasonable approach would be to give them less O2 in the
beginning, and then more when the cell wall building process is in greatest
upswing.
If you have a microscope and a Buerker chamber, this is the point where you
have the greatest proportion of budding cells... at Suntory this was about
24 hours after the pitch (not 14).
>>
The statement suggestion, that "overoxygenating in the beginning [...] )
actually leads to premature beer staling", where overoxygenating means
introducing more oxygen than the yeast can use, should cause no
headscratching unless you pick up head lice from the author. Actually
oxygenating beyond the amount yeast can use is always a bad thing.
BUT note that the fermentation process creates a lot of stuff with great
staling potential. If you want to compare the flavor damage of excess
initial vs later (beer) aeration, try the trivial experiment. Aerate a
wort , and a beer sample well.. If you can't tell which one has more flavor
damage with one sniff your nose needs realignment. Aerating late carries
greater flavor damage potential.
The second suggestion, that the O2 is needed during cell budding isn't
supported by evidence. Sterol is needed during the cell-membrane building.
Oxygen is need to form sterols when the precursor conditions arise, that is
squalene and glycogen are present. I've two studies but, one from a Czech
book on brewing yeast and a more detailed study in JIB that point to a
(dare I say it with Dave Burley absent ?) a stochiometric relationship
between the yeast use of glycogen and the production of sterols from
squalene. No glycogen = no(very little) sterol, even if O2 is present.
If yeast are allowed to complete a fermentation & flocculate in an anaerobic
(beer) environment they will normally build up massive stores of the storage
carbohydrates, glycogen and trehalose, and also squalene the precursor to
sterols. When they are subsequently pitched into wort they initially ignore
the wort sugars(!!) and use their internal storage carbohydrates and produce
sterols from the squalene, assuming O2 is available. In one study yeast
sterol levels went from 0.1% to 1% in the first two hours and the levels of
glycogen dropped dramatically at the same time(75%-90%). Also the fraction
of UnsaturatedFattyAcids (which also require O2) rose from 10% to 50% of all
lipids during that initial period.
Yeast don't rebuild their glycogen reserves much till after catabolite
repression ceases. After that the yeast modestly gain in glycogen, but
there is no huge accumulation till late fermentation when growth ceases.
In other words, glycogen, which may be the potential to produce sterol, is
highly available in healthy recently flocced yeast only. If you don't
aerate at their early 'kick-off' phase of fermentation, the yeast will use
the glycogen anyway (gotta eat) and you've lost the best opportunity to
create sterol.
So if you are pitching dormant yeast, initial aeration seems an excellent
idea. If you are pitching a starter at full krausen - that's a different
story and you should probably wait till after catabolite repression ceases.
This happens about the same time or a bit after the wort is CO2 saturated
and the bubbler starts working for normal gravity all-malt wort. Maybe this
is the 14hour figure of Dr.Cone. If you are adding sugar this point will
occur later. Oh yes - by all means experiment - nothing is cast in stone or
proven beyond doubt.
Even HBers can get an indication of yeast glycogen reserves with an iodine
test. Fix describes this in one of his books as a substitute for a
viability test. Think conversion iodine test, but you are looking
for/hoping for 'yeast starch' (glycogen).
There has also been some work growing yeast on 'oxidative' carbon sources,
ethanol and mannitol, sorbitol (the yeast respire/use O2) to very good
effect re sterols and O2 consumption.
-Steve
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Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:30:10 -0700
From: "William Graham" <geeks at att.net>
Subject: Dishwashing scum
Greetings -
I was wondering if anyone could tell me how to get rid of "dishwashing
scum" from my bottles. This is the scum ( not actually visible ) that is
deposited by the soap and the sheeting additive in the dishwasher that
severely limits head-retention. I was thinking that a soak in tsp would
work, but I recall a previous post mentioning that tsp scum should be
removed with vinegar.
So how can I get my dishwashing-scummed, tsp-scummed bottles squeaky
clean?
Thanks,
Bill in Golden, CO where the smell of boiling wort is in the air.
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