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FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org
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Contents:
Doppelbock ("Casey Cobb")
Homebrew Clubs (Drew Beechum)
Fluid flow and Reynolds Number (Dan)
Oxygen ("Greenly, Jeff")
re: haze ("Stephen Alexander")
RE: Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson ("Steven Parfitt")
Converting Extract to All-Grain (Ken Schwartz)
Yeast Viability (george fix)
RE: Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson ("Steven Parfitt")
Skunked? ("Jay Wirsig")
sour beer, souring weisse beer (Nathan Kanous)
Clear Beer ("Cade Morgan")
Oxygen purity (pedwards)
homebrew clubs (david.persenaire)
Temperature Controllers ("Glen Pannicke")
Re: Hops References (Steven)
Oxygen contaminants ("Tracy P. Hamilton")
Re: UPS beer shipping woes (Spencer W Thomas)
Re: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide (Jeff Renner)
microbrewing equipment (Marc Sedam)
Re: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide ("Steven Parfitt")
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 22:24:19 -0700
From: "Casey Cobb" <acez at mindspring.com>
Subject: Doppelbock
Hey guys, hope you all are doing well.
I've done a few all grain batches and have now started designing my own
brews and want to run this one by you all...need some suggestions,
especially on the hops. I did my research, but still...don't want to wait
2-3 months for a delicious doppelbock and be let down.
(5.5 Gallons, 70 mins boil)
1.5# Crystal 105L
5# Munich Malt
3# Lager Malt (2 row)
2# Pilsner Malt (2 row)
2# Honey Malt (God I love this stuff)
1.25# Wheat Malt
2.5# Vienna Malt (2 row)
.35# Chocolate Malt
2.5# Cara-Pils
This adds up to a whopping 20.1 pounds with a predicted OG of 1.084 (So
claims Promash).
I'm thinking maybe some Hallertau (2 oz) and Northern brewer (1 oz) 10 mins
into the boil, Some Saaz (.5 oz) 50 mins in, and some tettnanger (.5 oz) for
finishing. Promash predicts a 30.1 IBU.
Still up in the air about the yeast...WYeast Bavarian Lager, perhaps?
Do you think with an OG that high, the alcohol will dominate the taste of
the final brew? Anyways, I would greatly appreciate any suggestions.
Thanks,
Casey
Return to table of contents
Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:08:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Beechum <Drew.Beechum at disney.com>
Subject: Homebrew Clubs
For my money I think the world of homebrewing clubs. Of course I'm a
little biased, I'm an officer and webmeister for my club. (Tends to
make you more passionate.)
Through the club I'd have to say my technique and understanding of the
process dramatically increased. I mean, here's a group of 150 (a large
club, I realise) people who are passionate about the hobby and a
number of them passionate about understanding what's happening.
By all means join up with a club. IF nothing else you get a group of
people who can give you hell, erudite judging of your craft, and a lot
of opportunities for drinking the brew. (If nothing else there will
always be one person to drink that bad brew you wouldn't touch with
your enemie's mouth.)
Oh and guys.. go to the 2001 AHA National Conference in Los
Angeles. There are quite a few great brewers who'll be bringing their
local specialities.
- -- Drew Beechum
Public Relations - Maltose Falcons
Webmeister - www.maltosefalcons.com
Webmeister - www.beerodyssey.com
Request Address Only - No Articles writes:
> From: "Taliesin2" <shane.saylor at verizon.net>
> Subject: Home Brew Clubs...
>
> What is everybody's opinion of brew clubs? And what can one expect from
> the club? Also, do the clubs offer lessons in Homebrewing? And if they do,
> do you have to be a member to take them? Thanks...
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:36:35 -0400
From: Dan <knurdami at iname.com>
Subject: Fluid flow and Reynolds Number
Patrick,
Fluid flow behavior is dependant mostly on the influence of solid
boundaries. Fluid flow in a tube or a pipe, the most common situations that
brewers will encounter, is influenced by shear stress near the wall of a
pipe or tube. The shear stress is greatest at the surface of the tube wall
and reduces as the distance from the pipe wall increases. A flow of an
ideal fluid (zero viscosity and incompressible) does not suffer from any
shear stress and is considered potential flow. Since we work in the real
world, we will not be so lucky as to work with these magical fluids.
The aforementioned flow layer at the (inside) surface of a tube is called
the boundary layer. In laminar flow (lateral flow without mixing), there
can be both a boundary layer and potential flow. In turbulent flow (flow
with mixing), there is no potential flow and the entire fluid becomes the
boundary layer.
The fluid film directly in contact with the tube's wall has a velocity of
zero and there are variations of velocity from point to point as you move
out from the wall. Without getting into all of the particulars: The larger
the tube, the smaller the percentage of boundary layer for a given flow
rate. The faster the flow, the larger percentage of boundary layer for a
given tube diameter.
If you are trying to maximize heat transfer as in a heat exchanger, you will
want to insure that you have a pipe narrow enough to create turbulent flow
and if you aren't concerned with heat transfer and you want to save on pump
size, use a large enough diameter to ensure laminar flow.
The calculation for Reynolds Number for Newtonian fluids (to determine
turbulent and laminar flow) is:
Nre=(DVp/u) or Nre=(DV/v)
Where D=diameter of tube, V=average velocity of liquid, u=absolute viscosity
of liquid, p=density of liquid, and v=kinematic viscosity of liquid.
This is a simple equation to use and it will tell you a lot about what is
going on inside of your pipes.
A couple of quick tips:
1. Absolute viscosity (u) commonly uses units of lb/ft-s or Pa-s.
2. Average velocity of liquid (V) can be calculated as the total volumetric
flow rate of the fluid divided by the cross-sectional area of the tube
(V=q/S).
3. The bad news is that if you get into changing diameters or turns in the
tubing such as elbows, you will need all sorts of correction equations.
A Reynolds Number between zero and 2100 is almost guaranteed to be laminar
and a Reynolds Number above 4000 is almost guaranteed to be turbulent. The
range in-between is the transition region and could be one or the other or a
mixture of both. One word of advice when calculating Reynolds Number is to
make sure that your units match. If they don't you can be in for some
interesting numbers!
Patrick, I know this post was a bit lengthy but I hope that it has some
useful information for you.
Dan Kiplinger
http://hbd.org/klob
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 03:47:27 -0400
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Oxygen
Fellow Brewers,
There has been a lot of talk about the use of oxygen injection in
the home brewery, especially as regards the "type" of oxygen to use. Oxygen
injection as a stimulus to fermentation is a proven technique, but there has
been some confusion about the different grades of oxygen. I work at a
hospital. I also am an amateur welder, and oxygen is pretty important in
both settings. I am no expert, but after calling a few people, both here at
the hospital and at an industrial supply place, and doing some research on
the Web and at my local library, I came up with a few facts.
There are four main classifications of commercial oxygen: Medical,
Welding, Research, and Aviation. All forms of the gas are produced from the
regulated boiling off of liquid oxygen. Medical oxygen is humidified when
it leaves the bottle. Welding and Research O2 is not. Welding gas is very
pure; the standard is <.4 PPM impurities, those being helium, argon and
nitrogen, in trace amounts. Contrary to what you might think, it is
generally held to a higher purity standard than Medical, or USP Oxygen. I
spoke to an anesthesiologist and a respiratory therapist here at the
hospital. Both said that "Medical" oxygen really doesn't become "medical"
until it is humidified. The oxygen must meet a 93%(!)to 99% purity to be USP
(United States Pharmacopoeia) certified, and this USP Oxygen was available
only by prescription. Welding gas has to be 99.6% or better, according to
OSHA and the industrial supplier I spoke to. I was surprised by this, but I
was told that the measure was taken at the point of delivery, and that the
humidity in USP Oxygen was considered an impurity.
All of that said, I think that it's important to again stress the dangers of
having 02 around the home. Before obtaining O2, the home brewer would be
well-advised to obtain a copy of the MSDS sheet for oxygen. You can get one
at the following URL:
http://www.hoopersupply.com/msds/oxygen.htm
Please understand that this gas, under pressure, can cause some
pretty wild things to happen in a very short amount of time if exposed to
heat or petrochemicals. You have to have special regulators, seals and
hoses, and you must work with it in a well ventilated environment. Oil,
lubricants, gas, etc. will flash and burn violently when exposed to oxygen.
It can pool up at ground level, saturate clothes, carpets, towels, and with
one static spark, you have one hell of a fire. Some metals will combust when
the flame is fueled by pure O2. Stainless steel is a good metal to use with
pure O2, as it resists oxidation well. If you breathe pure O2 in for an
extended period of time, it can cause throat and lung irritation. Infants
exposed to 100% oxygen can receive serious eye damage. Patients with chronic
obstructive pulmonary disease, or COPD, (i.e. asthma, etc.) when exposed to
100% O2 can suffer a seriously depressed breathing reflex and can
asphyxiate. If you still want to use it, a number of companies make
disposable canisters for light duty use. With the proper regulator and
hoses, these work just fine, and I have seen them in Northern Brewer and
B3's catalogs. I've even seen a rig at Wal-Mart, made by Bernz-o-Matic. You
can get 20-30 good shots of O2 from one canister, and they're not that
expensive. Just use proper safety precautions and think about what you're
doing. Using O2 to oxygenate your wort is probably one instance in which
relaxing and having a home brew isn't the best advice.
A concerned brewer,
Jeff Greenly
greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:08:56 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: haze
Paul Smith (obviously a pseudonym) has been chipping around the edges of the
haze issue and writing some very good stuff - tho I think some practical
context is missing ...
<<
[...] sources of your haze, I would look to the
polyphenol contribution of your hops (likely) or your malt.
>>
The hops are a less likely source unless the original poster was
dry-hopping. The gallotannins present in hops mostly remain in the break.
In a 'typical' beer roughly similar amounts of phenolic compounds appear in
hops and malt, but the malt phenolics dominate the beer.
<<
The permanent haze you describe may be due to the complexation of the
polyphenols with haze-active, proline rich protein residues in your beer,
very common.
>>
This is classic chill/permanent non-biological haze. The "proline rich
protein residues" aren't some rarefied fraction of barley protein. In one
study of the amino acids of wort proteins, of the 20 common amino acids,
proline made up 30.9% of the total ! Proline is by far the most prevalent
amino acid in barley protein and also the most likely to bind to
polyphenols. BTW - your tongue is proline rich and this is part of the
story of astringency sensation.
Haze requires complexes large enough to scatter visible light, and so
polyphenols that can bind two proteins (not just attach to one), and
numerous enough to be noticable. Polymers with 2-5 phenolic
units are best at this cross-linking of proteins. This is similar to the
action of tannin so called "tannoids". Monophenols don't cross-link
and polyphenols peak in their tendency to bind to proteins at about 3-5
units. Beyond that they bind much less strongly and at about
polymerization of 10 they cease to be soluble.
The proteins involved have 100 - 600 amino acids and also are bound to a
significant amount of carbohydrate.
<<
Outside of time, fining, or filtration, there is not much you can do except
say to hell with it and enjoy your great tasting pilsner.
>>
Once the haze has formed you could use proteolysis or filtration. The
time to act is before haze formation using PVPP, PolyclarAT
Nylon66, etc - very effective in removing the offensive part of the
polyphenols.
<<Polyphenol-protein
induced haze is not as much a function of total amounts of protein or
polyphenols which survive the boil into your beer, but rather the ratio
between the two .. the haze active proteins have "enabler" sites along their
chain, but only in certain numbers, which lock up with polyphenolic "ends."
In order for the complexation to take place, these active sites must be
available in roughly equal proportion the the polyphenolic "ends."
>>
The statement is along the right lines, but the explanation is garbled. If
you have "enough" of the right sort of protein to create haze in a beer then
there is an "optimal" amount of polyphenol to add in order to create haze.
Too little and there will be more haze potential available. Too much
polyphenol and you get complexes so big that they precipitate fast.
Adding tannins to clear hazes has been used commercially.
The other part of the "ratio" doesn't work well. If you add more
haze-potentiating protein in a beer then you'll get somewhat more haze for
a fixed level of polyphenol.
<<
Also, the presence of oxygen, or certain heavy metals (e.g., iron or copper)
aid in the formation of haze - by bringing about the formation of
proanthocyanidin dimers from monomers.
>>
Actually tin, lead and antimony top the list, but Cu and Fe are more common.
This comes down to oxidation. The metal ions allow the creation of ionized
O2 and O2 complexes which go on to oxidize phenolics and polyphenols which
polymerize or bind to protein. The proline sites of proteins and
proanthocyanidins, and catechins are probably the most important and most
studied - but other amino acids and phenolics are involved in haze.
<<
The recently revisited hot-side
aeration discussion impacts here - HSA may actually reduce eventual haze
formation by catalyzing complexation in the kettle - and thus increasing the
rate of dropout before transferring to the fermentor.
>>
This is correct. Adding peroxide to the mash to create improved beer
stability has been practiced too. Purposely oxidizing the wort is IMO a bad
techniques. The simple unoxidized phenolics - monomers, are an important
part of brisk fresh beer flavor and these are oxidized by this method. This
method reduces the post boil level of phenolics, but at a terrible cost.
This technique might have value if you were stuck with inferior malt -
otherwise it deserves a pass. Gillian Grafton of the UK HB digest has a
webpage with a compiled list of haze reduction methods. Many of the old
methods (like oxidizing & polymerizing the phenolics w/ formaldehyde) were
comparable IMO to cutting off your toes to make your shoes it better.
<<
The bottom line: avoid oxygen after the kettle, expecially in the presence
of a good amount of malt- or hop-contributed polyphenols and proteins.
>>
Absolutely.
Much of the oxidized phenolics are left behind, given a good boil & break.
Only oxidized phenolics are a serious problem re haze formation. Oxidized
phenolics are also much more flavor active on the bitter/harsh/astringent
scale . New oxidized phenolics form after the boil in two ways - by the
introduction of O2 after the ferment *or* by the transfer of oxidation state
from some other material oxidized in the boil or mash or before. The yeast
are very strong reducers and much of the oxidation state transfer which
could otherwise occur doesn't during fermentation. After fermentation the
beer chemicals all get together and play "hot potato" with oxidation state
until the phenolics get oxidized and latch up to a protein or some other
stable fate. The best (IMO) way to avoid oxidized phenolics in the beer
is to prevent wort oxidation and use PVPP etc if needed.
Haze also requires the protein have binding sites (of proline or some of the
hydroxyl- or sulfur containing amino acids) *and* be large enough to
eventually form near-visible light wavelength size particles. Smaller
proteins are more difficult to craft into such large bits, so more
proteolysis makes for more haze resistant beer. The problem is that
we like lots of protein for body and head in the beer.
Frank Tutzauer writes ...
<<
A guy in my club suggested using a protein rest because of the pilsner
malt. [...] would a protein rest help?
>>
He's right. Some malts will throw a haze if you don't perform a
limited protein rest, but too much and you'll reduce head & body. IMO
start w/ 15' at 57C(135F) then a boost to the sacchar range as a haze
reduction rest. Also use PVPP or Polyclar as soon as the yeast
drops - it's very effective.
I have a paper that purports to give "total stabilization" of beer which
adds large insoluble gallotannins to the beer which chelate metal
ions and remove polyphenol/protein complexes. The gallotannin
complexes are then removed by centrifugation. Neat method,
but a continuous centrifuge is beyond HB means.
-S
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:21:19 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson
Mike Posted:
>Well my HLT is sitting at a very even 165 degrees right now. Thank >you
>very much to all the people that tried to help. The answer made >me want
>to kick myself in the butt! Seems that when you read voltage >on a SSR that
>does not have a load it will look like it is >conducting. As soon as you
>put a load on it it operates perfectly. >End of lesson. Now all I have to
>do is figure out why my pump quit >working and get another PID controller
>and i will be in business!
An SSR normally contains an Opto-isolator, a Triac, and a Snubber network.
The Opto-Isolator provides roughly 1500-5000 Volts of isolation between the
logic control input and the output drive side of the circuit for safety
isolation.
The Triac is the Power handeling switch.
The Snubber usually consists of a resistor and capacitor in series across
the output terminals of the Triac, to suppress comutating dv/dt from false
trigering the TRIAC. Since it is a capacitor and resistor in series across
the output terminals, it will pass a small current. Normally in the 1-3
milliampere range.
Power triacs also have a minimum holding current specification. It is
important to use a load which will excede the minimum holding current to
insure proper operation of the triac. This is normally around 100mA.
There is also a "Tungsten" rating of triac which is related to turn on surge
of incandescent lamps.
For TRIACs with current ratings in the 4 to 15 ampere range, a 60W lamp is a
good test load. I wouldn't cycle it too much as the in-rush is going to be
stressfull to the Triac if the lamp is allowed to cool significantly.
Mike ping me about the motor if you are still trying to figure it out and I
will try to help.
Steven
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 06:22:14 -0600
From: Ken Schwartz <kenbob at elp.rr.com>
Subject: Converting Extract to All-Grain
Hop Head writes:
"I am converting some of my partial mash recipes to all grain. In one of
them I used amber DME. What type of grain and in what quantity would I
use per pound of DME?"
This is actually trickier than going the other way. Here's why.
Consider amber extract and the beer it makes. The beer (specifically,
the wort, initally) has a certain color and gravity. How do you create
gravity? By how much *total* grain you use. How do you create color?
By how much of *what types* of grain you use. That's the tricky part --
is the extract made from pale ale malt and roast barley, or from pilsner
malt and crystal? Both of these combinations (and many others as well)
can be made to yield equal colors and gravities, yet they would clearly
produce very different beers.
The answer to your question then depends on what kind of beer you are
making. Study typical recipes for the style to see what goes into them
that you're not already putting into your extract/partial-mash
versions. This should guide you as to what types of grains you would
consider to substitute for the extract.
Next, determine the *total amount* of grain needed to substitute. A
quick rule of thumb for converison of liquid extract to grain is to use
1.33 lb of grain for every pound of liquid extract, or 1.50 lb grain for
every pound of dry extract.
Now you must determine the proportion of the different grains that you
have selected to substitute. Here's a possible procedure. Use a recipe
formulation program or spreadsheet. Create a beer of your usual batch
size using *only* the amount of "amber extract" that your extract or
partial mash recipe calls for. Note the gravity and color that
results. Now delete the extract and add the grains you selected to
substitute for the extract. Play around with the quantities until you
acheive the same gravity and color, remembering that the bulk of the
grain bill will likely be the pale "base" malt (pale ale malt, two-row,
pilsner, etc). Now add the rest of the recipe, and you're finished.
There is an article on my website ( http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer )
that describes the process of all-grain to extract/partial-mash. It has
information that might be helpful going the other way.
Good luck!
- --
*****
Ken Schwartz
El Paso, TX
Brewing Web Page: http://home.elp.rr.com/brewbeer
E-mail: kenbob at elp.rr.com
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:13:29 -0400
From: george fix <gjfix at CLEMSON.EDU>
Subject: Yeast Viability
Hi!
It was pointed out on Monday that:
>Well you've seen some inputs but one confused poster writes:
>>I came up with this test in the late 1980s when I was writing the first
edition
>>of [...]
>Yeah - and Al Gore invented the internet. The earliest reference to using
>iodine as a simple visual test for glycogen that I am aware of appears in
">Brewers' Guardian", page 43, February 1972, by C.Rainbow - a well known
>brewing yeast researcher. This method is referenced in a Cambridge prize
>lecture by David E.Quain published in JIB v95, pp315-323, Sept-Oct 1988
This is absolutely correct. The references were also pointed out to me in
private e-mail (in a slightly more civil manner!). In any case I was dead
wrong in thinking I was the first to use the test. In fact the test is so
simple and obvious that it would not be surprising if there were other
references as well. This is elementary homebrew methodology, but as long as
it is a reliable guide to predicting if my yeast will meet expectations, I
tend to be flexible about such things.
> Glycogen level is
>a good thing to measure/understand but it's not viability.
This assumes there is a universally accepted notion of "viability". In fact
there is not, and as far as properties relevant to brewing (which can be
quite different from other applications), viability is in effect defined by
how it is measured. There is a fantastic recent article by Inge Russell,
R.J. Stewart and others which contains a readable and comprehensive review
of yeast viability as it relates to brewing which makes these and other
points. It appeared in the MBAA Tech. Qr., Vol. 37, no.4, 2000.
>The long used test for brewing ability is methylene blue , which has
>limitations. Methylene violet stain has recently been suggested as an
>improvement. The advantages of this over methylene blue are discussed in
>J.ASBC 57(1):18-23, 1999 by Smart et al. which is available at the ASBC
>website. This paper notes some of the limitations of Methylene blue, and
>also demonstrates methods of testing the relationship of the stain level
>with other measures of viability.
I have discussed this article at length elsewhere, including many private
e-mails with people on this forum. I also discussed it in my presentation
at MCAB II. The limitations of staining cited in this article occur only
when < 90% viability is experienced. Some of the most problematic beers I
have produced in the past have been with yeast in this condition. Quite
frankly if it is below 90% I am going to take corrective action, and from a
practical point of view I could care less if it 60% or for that matter 80%.
The pros use 95% as the cutoff, which is well into the accurate zone. This
is most certainly why Methylene blue (as well as variations using other
stains) is still recommended by the ASBC, and can be found in their Methods
Of Analysis.
MCAB III like its two predecessors should be a blast! I am looking forward
to lively and stimulating beer discussions.
Cheers,
George Fix
*******************************************************
George J. Fix Phone: 864-656-4562
Professor and Head
Department of Mathematical Sciences
Clemson University 29634
*******************************************************
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:21:19 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Solid Sate Relay Answer/Lesson
Mike Posted:
>Well my HLT is sitting at a very even 165 degrees right now. Thank >you
>very much to all the people that tried to help. The answer made >me want
>to kick myself in the butt! Seems that when you read voltage >on a SSR that
>does not have a load it will look like it is >conducting. As soon as you
>put a load on it it operates perfectly. >End of lesson. Now all I have to
>do is figure out why my pump quit >working and get another PID controller
>and i will be in business!
An SSR normally contains an Opto-isolator, a Triac, and a Snubber network.
The Opto-Isolator provides roughly 1500-5000 Volts of isolation between the
logic control input and the output drive side of the circuit for safety
isolation.
The Triac is the Power handeling switch.
The Snubber usually consists of a resistor and capacitor in series across
the output terminals of the Triac, to suppress comutating dv/dt from false
trigering the TRIAC. Since it is a capacitor and resistor in series across
the output terminals, it will pass a small current. Normally in the 1-3
milliampere range.
Power triacs also have a minimum holding current specification. It is
important to use a load which will excede the minimum holding current to
insure proper operation of the triac. This is normally around 100mA.
There is also a "Tungsten" rating of triac which is related to turn on surge
of incandescent lamps.
For TRIACs with current ratings in the 4 to 15 ampere range, a 60W lamp is a
good test load. I wouldn't cycle it too much as the in-rush is going to be
stressfull to the Triac if the lamp is allowed to cool significantly.
Mike ping me about the motor if you are still trying to figure it out and I
will try to help.
Steven
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:59:46 -0400
From: "Jay Wirsig" <Jay.Wirsig at can.dupont.com>
Subject: Skunked?
My helles has a bit of an off flavour. My wife says it is a little skunky,
I detect a bit of sulfer. It was feremented at 11 dec C using a yeast cake
from a previous batch (Budvar) for 16 days and racked to a secondary for
lagering for 16 days. I did not do a diacyl rest. I have kegged 5 gal and
have a second 5 gal in a carboy. My questions are:
1) What could be the cause?
2) What can I do to correct it?
>>Jay
Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:09:38 -0500
From: Nathan Kanous <nlkanous at pharmacy.wisc.edu>
Subject: sour beer, souring weisse beer
Steve Parfitt asks about using yogurt or yogurt cultures to make a beer
sour. Well....yes...no...well..not exactly.
Let me start by saying I'm not a microbiologist. As I understand it, sour
beers are made as such with the use of certain yeast strains
(Brettanomyces) and bacteria (pediococcus and lactobacillus). Let's look
at lactobacillus.
As I understand it (ouch those comments were sharp Steve ;^) the
Lactobacillus used in sour beers is Lactobacillus delbrukii (pardon the
spelling). Yogurt typically use Lactobacillus bulgaricus. Note Phils
recent postings about the virtues of local flora for the souring of beers
(that was bordering on poor taste.....are those Lactobacillis
acidophilus?). Needless to say these are different bugs. They will
ferment differently and produce different fermentation products.
Will yogurt cultures make sour beer? Sure could. Will it be the same as
those soured with other microbes? Not likely...but it's dependant upon
your definition of "same"?
Case in point. Last spring I made a batch of Berliner Weisse. I mashed
the malt with some hops in the mash and ran off into the boil tun. Brought
that baby up to about 190 deg F and then chilled it. Never boiled it. I
pitched a BUNCH of Lactobacillus acidophilus capsules that I had
available. I put this in a water bath at 100 deg F for 3 days until the
wort seemed to be slightly sour. I then dropped the temp into the upper
60's (deg F) and pitched a kolsch yeast and let it go.
Do I have a berliner weisse? Sort of. It's got a hint of sourness, not at
all as sour as a berliner weisse should be, but it's there. It's also
rather distinct and one-sided. That is, it seems to have made lactic acid
and nothing else. It worked, but I'll try some other cultures this summer.
Also, don't forget that many yogurt cultures also contain yeast. Look at
the small print. I wouldn't try it.
Now, I may very well try to make a Finnish Sahti with a sourdough yeast
starter though.....
Hope this helps.... a little.
nathan in madison, wi
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:03:47 +0200
From: "Cade Morgan" <Cade.Morgan at eskom.co.za>
Subject: Clear Beer
Hi brewmeisters
A quick question. How do I get rid of
all yeast sediment in my beer? I read
a posting recently that I interpreted as
follows:
1) Prime the beer in the fermenter,
2) Seal off fermenter to retain CO2,
3) Allow the 2 weeks
4) Chill beer to as close to 0 C as poss.
5) Fill bottles.
Will this have the desired effect? Has anybody
tried this method before?
I enjoy drinking beer from the bottle, and with
the amount of sediment in my beer at the moment
this is not possible.
Please advise.
Cade A Morgan
cade.morgan at eskom.co.za
+27 (0)17-7993244
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:34:13 est
From: pedwards at iquest.net
Subject: Oxygen purity
here's a replay of what I posted to HBD 2904 on 12/18/98
here's the infor I got from a supplier of welding oxygen that I
patronize for my brewing oxygen:
"U.S.P. Oxygen (medical) has guranteed specifications of 99.0%
minimum oxygen purity, no odor.
"Industrial (welding) oxygen does not have guaranteed
specifications, but typically is CGA grade C, < 50ppm of
moisture, 99.5% oxygen purity.
"Both grades come from the same cryogenic bulk source, with
typical contaminants being: nitrogen, argon, hydrocarbons,
krypton, carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide. The difference in
grades arises from the care taken in cylinder preparation
and analysis. U.S.P. gases must be produced and tested in
accordance with "FDA Good Manufacturing Practices" and may be
legally used ONLY as directed by a licensed physician or for
emergency use by trained personnel."
Back to me:
Note that the "contaminants" are primarily the other gases that
make up the air we breath.
BTW, oil will self-ignite in the presence of 99.5 percent pure
O2 (we did this in high school chemistry), as will many other
substances, so the "oil/acetelyne in the oxygen" is a myth.
Many commercial breweries I've seen use welding grade O2 for
oxygenation.
I hope this answers the questions
--Paul Edwards
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:42:02 -0500
From: david.persenaire at abnamro.com
Subject: homebrew clubs
Shane Saylor asks what our opinions of homebrew clubs are. I have been a
member of our club in the south suburbs of Chicago since its inception ten
years ago. Our club never gave brewing lessons (well maybe once but too
much homebrew flowing and that's another story) but the members themselves
are always open to having someone stop by and watch them brew to learn a
few points. When I decided to switch to all grain a little over a year ago
I decided to take up invites with two of our more accomplished members and
picked up pointers from each and watched two different approaches. I would
recommend joining a club simply for a place to talk beer one on one with
fellow beer geeks. After that you'd be suprised at the different walks of
life people come from and yet you all have a common bond in that
illustrious malt nectar.
My question/request for the great minds in this forum is this. I have
lurked in my club for ten years and they finally did something crazy and
made me president for the next year. I would like to keep it going as well
as my predecessor and have a fine example to follow. Any one have any
suggestions for events, outings, meeting ideas? We meet once a month in a
member's house and feature a style that month where a member can bring a
commercial example or a homebrewed one. We have an annual picnic,
competition, and a Christmas party as our main events. Any other thoughts
comments would be appreciated.
I read Phil's comments on pilsner mark 2 and I need more details. How long
did it lager? Any decoctions? Water treatment? I just tapped my maibock
after a painful 85 days of lagering and I have to say the wait was worth
it. I have hit spring nervana. Phil, next time take that same yeast and
beef up your grain bill a little more to hit a gravity of 1.070 or 1.080
and you have a maibock. Do you get spring in oz to take advantage of
maibock season? I would also like to hear the differences between the two
yeasts since I am going to be tapping a budvar strain myself after 70 days
of lagering(the 85 was too painful couldn't wait any longer).
Dave Persenaire
Tinley Park, Illinois
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:49:11 -0400
From: "Glen Pannicke" <glen at pannicke.net>
Subject: Temperature Controllers
chezrad at bellsouth.net wrote:
>John Zeller asked why people tend to use PID's but not PLC's. In my opinion
>there are several reasons for this. [snip]
I am interested in creating a controller using a homebrewed microcontroller
(uC) setup, however my free time is now occupied by a little 9 mo. old who
has just learned to crawl. So this project will have to have to hit the
back burner for quite some time. Designing your own uC controller is no easy
task. It will require an intermediate knowledge of digital and analog
electronic circuits, plus you'll have to learn how to program the
controller.
To date, I have found that the AVR uC family (Dallas Semiconductors)is cheap
and pretty versatile. 2 port uC's go for around US$2-3 a piece and can be
programmed in a number of languages such as C and BASIC. Depending on the
model you can get any combination of: 1-10 MHz, 2-4 I/O ports (7-8
pin/port), MAX232 UART capablity, 0-2 ADC, 0-2 timers, watchdog timer,
additional EEPROM memory, brownout protection... I know I'm forgetting
something else... Oh. It's flashable ROM is good for over 1000 cycles. See
www.atmel.com for details.
BASIC programming can be acomplished using the BASCOM AVR programmer. This
software package will allow you to program "in system" or through a hardware
programmer. The evaluation copy will allow programming up to 2K for free.
Greater than 2K of instructions require the full version. See
http://www.mcselec.com for details.
Additionally, many peripheral devices (such as temp sensors) may be added to
the system using a simple 1-wire or 2-wire interface. The best I've seen so
far which work well with the above reside at www.dalsemi.com.
If you'd like a good intro to the subject, check out the "Little rAVeR"
package available at www.dontronics.com. It's an Aussie site which will set
you on the right track. They have PIC micros as well as AVRs. I prefer the
AVRs over PICs. I've dealt with Dontronics in the past. They get a thumbs
up from me.
I have no affiliation with any of these links. It's just a listing of a few
months worth of research into the subject. I originally wanted to design my
own RIMS/HERMS controller - and I will - SOMEDAY...
Now back to your regularly scheduled beer-related geekdom...
P.S. - It's good to see so many HBD'ers publishing in Zymurgy as of late.
Hat's off gentlemen!
===================================================
Glen A. Pannicke
glen at pannicke.net
http://www.pannicke.net
Check http://pgpkeys.mit.edu/ for PGP public key
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F 214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
==================================================
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 10:30:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steven <stevensl at mindspring.net>
Subject: Re: Hops References
I got some requests to post the replies to my hops references question
here are the majority of the replies URL's i received. I was looking for
flavor character and the first three fit that bill nicely. Again thanks to
all those who replied.
HDB's underused resource
http://hbd.org/brewery/Library.html#Hops
FAQ at realbeer
http://www.realbeer.com/hops/FAQ.html
John Palmer's book
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-3.html
Hop Union Hops Reference
http://www.hopunion.com/hvcb.htm
Intresting Reference
http://yakimachief.com/hoppages/hopvarietal.html
Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net
"You want the government to handle your medical care? You want the
government to take care of your retirement? Go stand in line at a post
office." -- Neil Boortz
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:54:44 -0500
From: "Tracy P. Hamilton" <chem013 at uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu>
Subject: Oxygen contaminants
Somebody said:
>> He said that the welding grade can be contaminated with nasty stuff
>> such as acetylene
The Janitor said:
> Wouldn't that make the cylinder a bomb? I mean, if you can't have
> simple oil in the cylinder, acetylene is far more combustible. As I
> understand it, the "contaminants" are more along the lines of noble
> (inert) gasses - but what do I know?
> Any one out there with the proper credentials care to speak up?
There are pressure and composition regimes which are explosive,
those which are flammable - which grade into those which are safe.
They are separated by a curve which is commonly backwards S
shaped (cut the curling tips off of the "S"), the different slants being
the first, second and third limits.
Physical Chemistry textbooks usually give H2 and O2 as an example.
Examples:
1. Fuel-air bombs such as used in the movie Outbreak.
2. The natural gas explosions that occur only after a buildup of
natural gas and then a spark.
For the same reason you may want to be careful where you store that
propane tank if it is full and the pressure release valve is working
on sudden warming. Maybe the melting snow from the sudden
warming will put out the cinders of your house.
3. Lighting my barbeque grill. Similarly the stove used by the 3 Stooges.
4. A nearly empty gas tank - watch out with that torch, Eugene!
Tracy P. Hamilton
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:20:00 -0400
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: UPS beer shipping woes
Well, they've got your number now, so you probably can't go back
there.
I label mine as "nonperishable food in glass" which ain't no lie.
I also use a "mailboxes etc" type place (a local firm, not really
mailboxes etc.) figuring they're much less likely to quiz me on the
content (and so far, so good), and that the UPS guy is not going to go
through the boxes he gets from them looking for suspicious contents.
Another thing that may raise a flag would be the destination address.
If it's "XYZ Homebrew Competition" then that's suspicious. If it's
"XYZHC" that's maybe not.
=Spencer
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:13:00 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide
"Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> wrote
>As far as a source for Lacto-Bacilis.... Could one just use a teaspoon of
>yogurt? Add it to a batch of malt and water that had been boiled to build up
>a batch of yeast? Let this ferment for a couple of days and use it?
It might work, but there are many species of Lactobacillus, and many
varieties or strains of many of these species. The one you may want
for souring your beer may very well not be one you could find in
yogurt. There are many species/strains in yogurt, notably L.
acidophilus and L. bulgaricus, as well as Streptococcus lactis.
The Berlilnner Weisse souring bug is L. berolinensis, which DeClerck
suggests is probably a strain of L. pastorianianus.
This is only theory. I don't know what practice would produce.
Jeff
- --
***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:01:55 -0400
From: Marc Sedam <marc_sedam at unc.edu>
Subject: microbrewing equipment
Hey all,
I'm trying to price out the startup costs to create a
microbrewery for an "entrepreneurial project" at business
school. I'm thinking a 60bbl brewery, three fermenters, ability
to brew lagers, etc. Could someone please point me in the
direction of an online resource to buy used equipment? Or any
links to new equipment providers would be cool too.
Thanks,
Marc
- --
Marc Sedam
Associate Director
Office of Technology Development
The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
308 Bynum Hall; CB# 4105
Chapel Hill, NC 27599-4105
919.966.3929 (phone)
919.962.0646 (fax)
OTD site : http://www.research.unc.edu/otd
eMTA site: http://mta.unc.edu
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Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 14:10:46 -0400
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide
Good point that I hadn't considered.
Another point I hadn't thought about till now is - how do I know that
whatever I am growing currently will not over time become too sour. Right
now it is nice and tart, but not like a persimon. Over time it could get
lots more sour.
I guess some experimentation is in order. Since I am about out of the wheat
beer (just a slight slosh in the bottom of the keg), I could add a gallon of
my Kolsch to it and let it set for about a month, then bottle it and set it
aside for a month or so and then try one every couple of weeks to see how it
matures.
Is this something I could apporach the biology department at the local
college to try to identify? Or is identification of such organisms relativly
difficult?
Hydrogen Peroxide tasts flat to me, this is a pucker sour. Are there other
peroxides that would exist in beer giving it a sour taste?
Steven
>From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
>To: homebrew at hbd.org (Posting Address Only - No Requests)
>CC: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: sour beer, souring weiss beer, peroxide
>Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 12:13:00 -0400
>
>"Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com> wrote
>
>>As far as a source for Lacto-Bacilis.... Could one just use a teaspoon of
>>yogurt? Add it to a batch of malt and water that had been boiled to build
>>up
>>a batch of yeast? Let this ferment for a couple of days and use it?
>
>It might work, but there are many species of Lactobacillus, and many
>varieties or strains of many of these species. The one you may want
>for souring your beer may very well not be one you could find in
>yogurt. There are many species/strains in yogurt, notably L.
>acidophilus and L. bulgaricus, as well as Streptococcus lactis.
>
>The Berlilnner Weisse souring bug is L. berolinensis, which DeClerck
>suggests is probably a strain of L. pastorianianus.
>
>This is only theory. I don't know what practice would produce.
>
>Jeff
>--
>***Please note new address*** (old one will still work)
>Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
>"One never knows, do one?" Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943
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