HOMEBREW Digest #3617 Thu 26 April 2001

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  Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalten ("Greenly, Jeff")
  Clubs revisited (Drew Beechum)
  Hazy about air/oxygen ("pksmith_morin1")
  Gott erhalts ("Dan Listermann")
  RE: How to obtain a free outdoor burner from the in-laws (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Homebrew Clubs ("John Zeller")
  RE: homebrew clubs (Brian Lundeen)
  Re: Doug Hurst view on Homebrew Clubs ("Marty Milewski")
  Clubs ("Grant Knechtel")
  Mash time (Brian Lundeen)
  Munich Dunkel ("Murray, Eric")
  Best of Philly comp results (Joseph Uknalis)
  RE: Carboys--does size matter? (LaBorde, Ronald)
  Racking to secondary/FG too high ? ("Axle Maker")
  CONTAMINATED PILSNER ("George Krafcisin")
  Mikes new HERMS ("Mike Pensinger")
  Roller Mills ("John Lovett")

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:02:24 -0400 From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu> Subject: Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalten Literally translated, it means, Vine and Malt, God conceives (as an idea)/preserves Erhalten is a verb with several meanings, so take my translation with a big grain of salt. Erhalts is not a proper conjugation unless it's a colloquialism, which I suspect. Jeff Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 01:16:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Beechum <Drew.Beechum at disney.com> Subject: Clubs revisited Hey.. I'm back. I'd like to respond to Doug's points (and I premptively declare this is not an attack on Doug's character) I believe a number of the older clubs suffer from the cliquish attitude Doug mentions. My only advice on this if you don't fit any of the categories (aka 40-55, me - 27; close friend - never met em before) that the right way to get around those barriers is to ask "smart" questions that show your curiousity (and stroke the ego a wee bit) and get involved somehow in a strong fashion. For me this happened to be our club's website had fallen into disrepair, and I mocked up a new site and volunteered to run the sucker. Next thing I knew.. I'm a known quantity. I would strongly take issue with Doug's assertion that all the clubs have competitions as a driving force. From my experience, competitions are cool an all, but we run ours out of tradition and out of making a party out of the suckers (ala MayFaire 2001). The only reason I enter beers into competitions is to get a fairly honest opinion of my beer without the ass kissing face to face politic response. (I mean really.. unless there are screamingly obvious flaws which of your buds is going to take the time to tell you that there's a phenol detectable in your beer from yeast stress or some such?) As for learning flavor characters.. it is, as Doug points out, handy to have people around who can explain those things. "See that rough stale flavor in that beer, that's what they mean by oxidation." Doug says the clubs are not for him, which is a shame. It's damn nice to have a group of people to talk beer with who's opinions you can trust to not be as ill informed as most. :) - -- Drew Request Address Only - No Articles writes: > From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com> > Subject: Re: Homebrew Clubs > > Shane was asking about the merits of homebrew clubs. > > My experience in with clubs in Chicago (one in particular) and elsewhere > has been less than spectacular. I find them generally very cliqueish. > If you're not part of the 40-55 age demographic or close friends with a > leading member, you're on the outside. I'm sure all clubs are not as > closed as this, but this has been my experience. > > Beyond that, I have a problem with the concept of beer > competitions(which seems to be a major driving force of AHA clubs). Why > should I place my beer up for judging against others or against a > "standard". I understand the BJCP and AHA style guidelines and do feel > they have a place/are useful. The point is, I don't feel the need to be > ranked in comparison to other's beers. If I like my beer that's all > that matters; not how it stacks up against someone elses beer or palate. > IMHO beer is about comradery and fellowship and I don't find competition > supportive of that end. I guess I'm just not the competetive type. > > That's not to say that access to people who understand, explain and > teach beer flavor profiles isn't beneficial. My largest deficiency is > pinpointing specific flavor characteristics in my beer. If I were > involved in a club, I would have ready access to people who could help > me learn more. As it is, I have the difficult task of learning tasting > on my own or searching out experts. I am, however, quite comfortable > making my own informal comparisons between my beer and > traditional/commercial examples. I can tell when my beer does or does > not stack up. > > I'm sure a lot of people will respond more positively about homebrew > clubs. They will talk about learning from other brewers and such. It > is possible to brew with, and learn from other people without joining a > club. I'm sure clubs have their merits, just not for me. That's why I > read the HBD (which I suppose could be termed a club of sorts). Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 07:04:37 -0500 From: "pksmith_morin1" <pksmith_morin1 at msn.com> Subject: Hazy about air/oxygen Let me clarify: yeast will respire oxygen; of course, proper oxygenation is necessary for their growth and excess oxygen will quickly be scrubbed by CO2 production. What I mean by "good practice" is avoiding the introduction of oxygen in several "trap" areas; for homebrewers, usually, this means in all beer transfers (post pitching). In a production brewery, it can be a host of places, i.e., whirlpool, filter, improperly evacuated vessels, improperly evacuated bottles and kegs. Paul Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:11:56 -0400 From: "Dan Listermann" <dan at listermann.com> Subject: Gott erhalts Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 13:35:49 -0600 From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr at littongcs.com> Subject: translation, please Would someone please translate this? "Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts" > I assume that "hopfen und malz" is "hops and malt", > but I don't know what the rest means. "Hops and malt, God maintains." I always liked, "Da ist Hopfen und Maltz vorloren." He has lost his hops and malt. It describes someone totally lost. Dan Listermann Check out our new E-tail site at http://www.listermann.com Take a look at the anti-telemarketer forum. It is my new hobby! Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:19:36 -0500 From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: How to obtain a free outdoor burner from the in-laws >From: "Andrew Moore" <abmjunk at hotmail.com> > >I thought you might appreciate my strategy to obtain a free outdoor propane >burner. Well, you got your free burner alright, do not be too surprised when you visit the in-laws that they suggest you hire a baby sitter when you go out on the town. Ron La Borde Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu http://hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 08:41:56 -0700 From: "John Zeller" <jwz_sd at hotmail.com> Subject: Homebrew Clubs Doug, You wrote: "Beyond that, I have a problem with the concept of beer competitions(which seems to be a major driving force of AHA clubs). Why should I place my beer up for judging against others or against a "standard"." (snip) I am not really a very competitive type myself, but I really don't view beer judging as a true competition in the cut-throat sense of the word. Beer judging is more about fun and feedback. I'm sure individual clubs vary widely in their constitution regarding cliquishness and such. That is a part of human nature sometimes. Not all clubs are that way and certainly not the one I have joined. The competitions are a wonderful way to recieve quality evaluations of what you are brewing. It doesn't matter much if you win a prize or not. I recently entered a local competition mostly out of curiousity. I was fairly confident that I was making some very good beer and wanted to see if anyone else thought so too. Particularly someone who had an educated palate and much more experience than I do. Much to my surprise, my entry took a first place! I was not yet a club member at that time, but I enrolled at the next meeting. I have met a great bunch of guys and have had the pleasure of sampling a wide variety of beers. Our club is not cliquish at all and I felt accepted immediately. Members bring samples to the meetings. Some of these are obvious and admitted failures, but the brewers bring them to let you taste a beer that has some defects. The clubs are about commraderie, sharing homebrewing experiences, tasting lots of homebrews and generally just having fun. Clubs and competitiions are most certainly not for everyone, but I have found our club to be a good bunch of guys who generally only want to see others have fun and make good homebrew. To be honest, I was expecting a bunch of arrogant snobs, but this definitely has not been my experience. I'm sure there are many others like yourself who are content to stay at home and drink your pale ale all by yourself, but I suspect that when you brew a good one you will always be wondering how it would stack up in a comparrison with other good beer. I would like to encourage you to enter a competition for fun. Just for fun. You may be pleasantly surprised just like I was. I may never win a competition again, but I will surely never forget that first time. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:58:47 -0500 From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: RE: homebrew clubs Doug Hurst writes: > My experience in with clubs in Chicago (one in particular) > and elsewhere > has been less than spectacular. I find them generally very > cliqueish. Cliqueish, to me, is a rather derogatory term for the simple fact that people have a tendency to prefer the company of some people over others. Within a large group, there will be a breakdown of people into smaller groups and this is natural. I don't want to make assumptions about your character, but if you have tried every club in Chicago, and can't find one where you seem to be accepted, maybe the problem isn't with them. OK, maybe that's not fair. I don't know Chicago, maybe its just not a friendly kinda town. But if an opinionated, short-tempered, control-freak like me can find a few people in a club that don't actively despise me, well surely, anybody can. Then again, the fact that I started the club may be the only reason I've been tolerated this long. The Night of the Long Knives may be fast approaching, who knows, I ain't gonna worry about it, because I'm relaxed and having a homebrew. As for fitting a certain profile, in our club, we have a lot of members that fit the "middle aged and widening" category, but we also have members that range from university age to retirees. Demographics just doesn't seem to be an issue. I'm sure there are clubs out there with a very narrow focus and tolerance level. Things like, the club motto is "Born to raise Heck" can be a tipoff that maybe this won't be the right club for you (or maybe it is, nothing wrong with that). Bottom line is, don't be afraid of joining a club because you think you will not be welcome. I gotta believe that most clubs out there are just a bunch of average guys and women from all walks of life, who share a common love of brewing, and will accept darn near anybody (see above). Especially if you make bad beer, and display a staggering level of ignorance. The collective urge to rescue you will probably leave you in tears. (Gosh, I almost make it sound like a cult, don't I)? > Beyond that, I have a problem with the concept of beer > competitions(which seems to be a major driving force of AHA > clubs). Why > should I place my beer up for judging against others or against a > "standard". Sorry, a good homebrew club strives to meet the needs of all its members. To me, that means providing an environment that promotes education, competition and socializing. Not every member is interested in all of those things, but you should not criticize a club for providing them to members who are interested in them. If you don't want to compete, don't compete. However, I will say this. It has been my experience that competitions are the only way you are going to get real, honest, sometimes brutally honest, feedback on your beers. When you're standing around, socializing, nobody wants to say, "Hmmm, this really isn't very good. Excuse me while I go pour out the rest of my glass". At our pale ale competition, I had to throw in a rather poor entry as it was the only thing in my stock that fit the style. I had trotted it out before, and received favourable comments. In the competition, it got trashed, and deservedly so. It was a crappy beer. Sean (aka Elvira) was especially damning in his appraisal. Sean, you don't really think I believed that you had to go outside and "check to see if you'd left your lights on" after sampling my entry, did you? ;-) It is very easy to become blind to a flaw in your beers, especially if it is recurring (I'm not saying your beers do, I'm speaking now for brewers in general). A good competition (and by good, I mean well judged) can provide you with valuable feedback on fault identification. Once the fault has been identified, you can investigate what may be causing it and take corrective measures. The end result, you make better beer, you enjoy it more, you drink twice as much of it, your wife leaves you, your health deterio... sorry, I digress. If the competitive side of competitions doesn't appeal to you, then at least consider it for a chance to perhaps learn something about your beers that you didn't already know. > As it is, I have the difficult task of > learning tasting > on my own or searching out experts. I am, however, quite comfortable > making my own informal comparisons between my beer and > traditional/commercial examples. I can tell when my beer does or does > not stack up. I don't see this as an either-or situation. Learn on your own, but learn from others, too. You are not necessarily your own best teacher. A good analogy is my guitar playing. I taught myself, and I taught myself wrong. I developed a lot of bad habits that I now have to unlearn. I am actually in a worse position than if I had just gotten some proper direction from the get-go. Books, web sites, discussion groups, these are all valuable resources for self-learning. Homebrew clubs offer an opportunity to learn from others and have fun while you're doing it. Sorry for being so long-winded. Add that to my list of faults. Cheers, Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 11:16:08 -0500 From: "Marty Milewski" <mmilewski at mlpusa.com> Subject: Re: Doug Hurst view on Homebrew Clubs This is in regard to Mr. Hurst's experience with Homebrew Clubs... I couldn't have said it better myself. I too had a similar experience with a Chicago Homebrew Club (I'm quite sure the same one). I feel I have a lot to share with any club due to my technical background in Mechanical Engineering, not to mention the fact that I have resources for 12 oz returnable amber bottles for only 5 cents ea and refurbished/sanitized 5 gal corny kegs for $12. I applaud and respect your complete honesty, especially in this forum. You're not alone, I'm a 28 years old professional and share the same thoughts. I also agree with your take on hbd...it is a great forum due to its lack of bias, there are no 'outsiders' here. I'm on a quest to find that local Homebrew club that doesn't make me feel like an 'outsider' due to my age, currently the only one I found has only one member...me (but plenty of members/friends to do the drinking). Regards, Marty Milewski mmilewski at mlpusa.com Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:55:18 -0700 From: "Grant Knechtel" <gwk at hartcrowser.com> Subject: Clubs WRT the "to club or not to club" thread, this is the way I see it. There are many different types of clubs, every one will take on character from its members, and programs will only be as good, or as bad as the sum of volunteer effort put in. Those "lucky" enough to live in large metropolitan areas may have several from which to chose, those in less populous areas may be lucky to have one. My choice has been to participate in on-line forums such as the HBD, the Brewery Brews and Views bbs, and SkotRat's BrewRat Chat. These have the advantage of no geographic or time constraints, and no one need drive home from a meeting after over sampling. Main difficulty has been tasting each other's beers but through the good offices of various shipping entities that can be overcome. Consider this my personal invitation as a member for all interested to drop by the BRC at skotrat.com. Be aware that although almost all BrewRats are homebrewers, any and all subjects are considered open, often with adult content, much as it might be at your neighborhood pub. For Doug in Chicago who found the area clubs consisted of mainly members in the 40 to 55 age demographic, and cliquish: If they purposefully excluded you, shame on them! Shop for another club. However, it's also understandable that members who may have been friends since before you were born may not have been as outgoing toward you as you would have liked, especially if you felt the need to immediately hold forth on how worthless you thought their upcoming competition was. I'd bet if you acted interested, listened well and weren't afraid to volunteer for the next event that did interest you, you'd have eventually become well accepted. My $.02, and Prost! -LabRat Neue Des Moines Hausbrauerei Des Moines, WA USA Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 12:53:35 -0500 From: Brian Lundeen <blundeen at rrc.mb.ca> Subject: Mash time In another forum where they use words like "Shout" and "mate" a lot, Grant writes: I know that as well as the time needed for conversion the mash length determines the balance between dextrin's & maltose. So is 60 min long enough & can I save 30min off my brew day? Anyone care to expand a bit on how mashing time ties in with temperature, mash thickness, and probably other things in determining the fermentability of the wort? Thanks, Brian Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:07:46 -0400 From: "Murray, Eric" <emurray at sud-chemieinc.com> Subject: Munich Dunkel I was wondering if the collective could give me their input on creating an authentic Munich Dunkel along the lines of Augustiner. My initial thoughts for a 11 gallon recipe are; 20 lbs of German Munich malt (8-12 L) 4 oz roasted barley (for color) 2 oz Hallertau Hersbrucker for 60 minutes Double decoction mash, 122 F for 30, decoct 1/3, raise to 146 for 30, decoct 1/3, rest at 156 for 60. Munich Lager yeast. S.G approx 1.051 IBU 21.2 Est. SRM 14.2 (which will probably be a little darker from the mash) I have not used a decoction Mash before, and I use a rectangular cooler to mash in. Any tips or advice here would be appreciated as well. Thanks in advance, Eric Murray Louisville, KY Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:31:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Uknalis <birman at netaxs.com> Subject: Best of Philly comp results Hi all, the results for the Best of Philly & Suburbs homebrew competition are at: http://www.netaxs.com/~shady/hops/archives/hops-bops_2001/results.html Congrats to all the winners and especially John Ashmore for his Best of Show North German Pilsner. Joe Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:37:29 -0500 From: rlabor at lsuhsc.edu (LaBorde, Ronald) Subject: RE: Carboys--does size matter? >From: "Neil K" <neilk27 at hotmail.com> > >I recently bought a 23 litre (6 US gallon)carboy,,,, The 6 gallon carboy should be about the perfect size to ferment 5 gallons of wort in. A blowoff hose could be used, but it you keep fermentation temperatures on the lower side, you probably will not have any blowoff, but just a nice inch or two of head during primary fermentation. I have on occasion had blowoff with the 6 gallon carboys using ale yeast. I just use a foil cover the first few days, then wipe up and rack to secondary after 5 or so days. This is where I start using the airlock. For secondary, the 5 gallon size is best as you don't want much deadspace (alive deadspace that is). I aerate with an aquarium pump, but use no airstone, I use the racking cane with the end cap in place. This causes a lot of agitation on the bottom, but not so much foam. I wrap the foil cover around the cane and if foam comes out, I let it. I usually leave the pump on for anywhere from 4 to 12 hours. Lately it's been 12 hours. On the input side of the racking cane, I have a small rubber 1 hole stopper slipped on backwards (tapered end out). This goes into a plastic syringe minus the plunger. Inside the syringe is some sterile cotton, and on the small end of the syringe I have connected the aquarium pump hose which is a nice fit. Ron La Borde Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu http://hbd.org/rlaborde Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 18:12:55 -0400 From: "Axle Maker" <axlemaker at mindspring.com> Subject: Racking to secondary/FG too high ? I recently brewed a IPA, it was a kit I got from B3, it can be found on their web site in the Mini Mash section, they called it IPA II. Once cooled and in the carboy I took a hydro reading > SG 1.060. The yeast I used was WL's English Ale Yeast, which I stepped up 2 times following the process I read on the Hoptech web site, I also aerated the wort with a SS stone/hepa filter/fish pump. Ferment started in 7 hours, and a couple hours after that it was a churning frothing killer ferment that lasted for almost 3 day's, at this time I was able to remove the blow-off and install a air lock, it bubbled like crazy, by the 5th day ( which I thought is the day you should rack to secondary ) I was getting a bubble every 15 sec's. Well after I racked the bubble's were a minute or better apart and by the next morning all activity had stopped, I waited a couple of more day's and still nothing, so I took a hydro reading > FG 1.026, I'm guessing this is too high. So my question's are... What happened ? Did I ruin this batch ? Is there something I can do to fix it ? Is there a proper way to determine when to rack ? How do I determine what should be the right FG ? Will Promash give me the right FG ? Thanx To All In Advance ! Axle... Axle's Alewerk's Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:02:55 -0500 From: "George Krafcisin" <gkrafcisin at mindspring.com> Subject: CONTAMINATED PILSNER I'm currently trying a Czech Pilsner using a recipe in a recent Brew = Your Own issue - except I used a mixture of 80% distilled water and 20% = Chicago tap water on the advice of a local homebrewer to mimic Pilsen's = water. All went well in the mashing and boiling, except . . . my = immersion chiller sprang a leak, which I didn't see until I got = suspicious about the volume of wort going up a quart or so. I figured, = well, it's only Chicago tap water, chlorinated and all that, so the OG = will be a little lower, is all. Paranoid that I am, I reboiled the mix = for a half hour, meanwhile fixing the leaks. Added a bit more aroma = hops and chilled it over again to 70 deg. Having had problems getting = lager yeast to start at temps below 55 deg F, I pitched a Czech pilsner = yeast from St Pat's, put it in the frig at 65 deg F, and gradually = lowered the temperature to 45 deg F over five days. OG was 1.042. Fermentation was active after three days. Problem is, the smell from = the airlock was slightly musty/sour. After two weeks, the Gravity was = down to 1.008. Smell was still there - not strong, but not the real = beer smell I'm used to. I tasted the brew, and it was OK, no sour = taste. So I racked to a glass carboy, and put it in the frig where it's = happily resting at 33 deg F. Question: Is a Pilsner supposed to smell that way until fully = fermented? Or is my batch contaminated? Will the smell go away? Or = should I just pour it out and try again? George Krafcisin Glencoe, IL Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:28:25 -0400 From: "Mike Pensinger" <beermkr at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Mikes new HERMS Hey all... thanks to a lot of help from you guys my HERMS system is coming together. Pictures and explantion can be found at the link below Have a great brewing day!! Mike Pensinger beermkr at bellatlantic.net http://members.bellatlantic.net/~beermkr Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:21:38 +1000 From: "John Lovett" <john.lovett at amcor.com.au> Subject: Roller Mills I am thinking of buying a roller mill. It would seem to come down to a choice between the Listermann and Valley mills. Has anyone experience of either of these and the pros and cons of each? I'm just trying to get some recommendations. Cheers. John Lovett Return to table of contents
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