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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: H2O2 Oxygenation (Bret Morrow)
  Theakston's Old Peculier ("Colin Marshall")
  Forced Carbonation ("Jamie Smith")
  Re: Using Lemon (Jeff Renner)
  hydrogen peroxide (Jeff Renner)
  Carbonation and Bottling Question ("Bissell, Todd S")
  False Bottom Design ("Kevin Eggemeyer")
  Oxygenation methods (Tony Barnsley)
  Re: Salt Correction Factors ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: New subscriber introduction/ 3 questions (Jeff Renner)
  plambic (Jim Liddil)
  water analysis (Ed Jones)
  consider the topic dead, Steve (David Harsh)
  Ingredients for a Scottish Ale Recipe ("Rich Beecher")
  What is more important, temperature control during fermentation or fermenters ge ("Jim Moeller")
  Wyeast 1338 in Mild ale (Philip Ritson)


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Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 16:55:59 -0400
From: Bret Morrow <bret.morrow at prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: H2O2 Oxygenation

Greetings,

Brian seems enthralled by using H2O2 to oxygenate his wort--if I read
the subtext in his post, I believe he really wants to upset Clinitest
from its #1 position in posts. ;-)  Well, I'm game.  And I think we can
keep this one much more polite than the other contender currently
running!

His idea of adding H2O2 before the yeast is a great one.  However, if
the H2O2 doesn't have yeast to physically react with it is likely going
to rub up against the trub protein (pronounced 'pro-deen' here at
Yale).  The related O radical will react with the protein (and other
components of wort) changing it into God-knows-what.  OK, a protein
chemist would know that--any takers?  Could this altered protein change
the protein related taste characteristics--mouthfeel, head, etc.?  I
await input.

A second issue of Brian's is cost.  The stuff you can buy in the
Pharmacy for cuts is 3%.  The stuff for bleaching all those blondes out
in LA is 30% (I believe) but I don't think I would want that in my
wort.  Most of the other 70% would be water, but not all--and the
chemistry industry can make some nasty stuff, talk to Bill Moyers.  And
yes, you don't want to work with pure H2O2 and it is unlikely that you
could get it.  So, how much do you need?  Well according to AJ, the
saturation of O in wort is 8 mg/L, so for a 5 gall. bath that would be
only about 160 mg.  That sounds possible even with 3%, but how much will
get lost oxidizing the protein (etc.) and how much will bubble into the
air?

I hate to say this, but someone who can measure DO in wort needs to step
in here.  Or someone who know how many grams of O2 they bubble through
their wort to get O saturation.  Of course the geometry of the
fermentation vessel will be important ;-) but I'd be willing to take any
numbers at face value.

A compromise idea would be to grow up enough yeast to ferment the whole
batch separately using H2O2 as an oxygen source, then pitch only the
yeast slurry--this would eliminate many of the concerns I have raised
here.  Again following Brian's lead of adding H2O2 to the yeast media
(wort) not to the yeast culture directly.  Once you have enough health
yeast to ferment the entire batch, the yeast's need for O2 is
dramatically reduced.

An alternative (read joke) is to add a natural source of O2 to the
fermenting wort--O2 from plants, namely aquarium plants!  Just place
them into the wort and there you go!  Those babies will be chugging out
O2 in no time.  You could even add snails to keep the sides of your
glass carboy clean!

Sorry, I couldn't resist a bad joke.

Finishing my stout and signing off,
Bret Morrow,
Hamden, CT




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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:08:45 +1000
From: "Colin Marshall" <byoah at argay.com.au>
Subject: Theakston's Old Peculier

I wish to make a malt extract version of Theakston's Old Peculier. Some of
the recipes I have found recommend the use of treacle in quantities ranging
from a few grams to 500 gms. The CAMRA book "Brew Your Own Real Ale at Home"
has a recipe which doesn't use any at all. Can anybody enlighten me?
Thanks,
Colin.



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:48:49 -0300
From: "Jamie Smith" <jxsmith at vac-acc.gc.ca>
Subject: Forced Carbonation

The force is no longer with me.  I've made my first batch of non-beer
(soda for my 8-yr old) thinking it would carbonate in the keg like my
beer does.  So far it's been in the fridge for almost 2 weeks with little
sign of bubbles.  The beer attached to the same system is working as
well as it always does.

Any thoughts?  It's a simple soda kit: syrup, water and sugar.  I didn't 
go with the yeast as I though I wouldn't need to, and I figured I'd get a 
better taste...

Jamie on PEI



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:14:47 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Using Lemon

Chuck Doucette of O'Fallon, IL. (Near St. Louis, MO.) writes

>I'm  ... have a question
>about the use of Lemon or Orange in a recipe. The
>question is this: How much do I use for a five gallon
>batch and do I use the fruit itself, or should I use
>the peel? I have not been able to find anything that
>answers the quantity question, though I have seen
>reference to the use of Orange peel.

Welcome to HBD.  Pay no attention to the fermenter geometry argument 
behind the curtain.  Thanks for posting your home town.  We need more 
of that.

In order to answer your question intelligently (which is probably 
your desire), we need to know what kind of beer you are trying to 
make.  The only use of orange I can think of offhand is Belgian wheat 
beer, or wit beer, which often uses several kinds of dried orange 
peel.  Some very old homebrew recipes called for the juice of a 
lemon, but I hope you aren't using one like that.

Let us know what you're aiming at and we'll try to help.  (That isn't 
the royal we, it's confidence that others will pitch in, too).

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:30:27 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: hydrogen peroxide

I seem to remember from this discussion several years ago a 
convincing argument (AJ?) that H2O2 is such a powerful oxidizer that 
it would likely instantly oxidize wort components.  This is likely 
the source of the undesirable flavor/odor reported by Dave Lodgson 
via Hans Aikema.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."
Proverbs 15:1.  


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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:03:36 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Carbonation and Bottling Question

Hi all:

Just a quick question, in regards to what I have noticed with my latest
batch (a very tasty E.S.B.).

I racked from my secondary to the bottling bucket, and then carefully poured
in the corn sugar solution of 3/4 cup corn sugar boiled in a pint of water.
>From there, I bottled 6 12-oz bottles (possible future contest entrants),
and the rest into my usual 22-oz bottles. Bottle-conditioned them at room
temperature (which as gotten to be as high as 80 degrees or so) for four
weeks, and then chilled to 50 degrees in the `fridge.

The results? While the ale coming out of both the 12-oz and 22-oz bottles
tastes very good, the carbonation is excellent coming from the 12-oz
bottles, and not-so-excellent from the 22's. Less head, as well.

Is there any scientific and/or logical explanation behind this? After all,
it's the same beer and the same remnant yeasties having their last meal on
the same corn sugar in each bottle, why would the size of the bottle make a
difference....? Perhaps it's just luck that the smaller bottles got more of
the priming solution than the big ones, but seems a bit too coincidental,
even to a newbie such as myself. Tks!

Cheers!

Todd




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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:42:21 -0500
From: "Kevin Eggemeyer" <KevinE at AccessTraining.com>
Subject: False Bottom Design

I'm building a false bottom for the mash tun in a new recirculating setup
and I'm debating
what to use for the false bottom.  Currently, I use a slotted copper
manifold in a picnic cooler
(which is being turned back into a cooler with the advent of the new
system).  I'd like to go to
something that allows drainage from the entire bottom area of the grain.
Checking around, I
think I've gotten it down to the following two options:

Option #1 - Perforated stainless (3/32" holes on 5/32" staggered centers)

Option #2 - Stainless screen with support underneath (the support would look
like a barbeque grill - heavy wire/rods - with the screen on top)

I would think that the stainless screen would have more open area and,
therefore, would allow
better flow.  However, the suction created by the pump might be too much for
the screen.  Has
anyone had any experience with either of these two options, or possibly a
third option, that they
would be willing to share?

Kevin Eggemeyer
~ St. Louis, MO




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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:50:35 +0100
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Oxygenation methods

Hi oh great brewing consciousness,

We are currently having a nice little discussion over on the UK Homebrew
list regarding effective oxygenation methods that is starting to resemble
the Great Clinit*st/Botulism/Fermentor Geometry debates that are taking
place here. I do recall someone (AJ Delange ? ) playing with their DO probe
and comming up with some figures for O2 levels given various oxygenation
methods.

This all stems from one list member saying that he had no luck using a
stainless aeration stone and O2 in aerating his beers. He reported Long
drawn out Secondary Ferments, extended maturation times, and high diacetyl
levels that went away when he adopted his new aeration method. What he does
is fix the stone to the Gas in of a corny, Half fill with beer, and
pressurise using O2 to 40psi. Shake the bejeebers out of it, then
repressurise back to 40psi. Shake empty into the FV and repeat for the rest
of the beer. (He's doing Half Barrel Batches !! moving up to 2.5 BBL!!!)

I Maintain that shoving the airstone in the wort line and aerating as the
cool wort passes over it will be more than adequate, after all I've used a
variety of methods and don't have any of the problems he's reporting. But we
need numbers Dammit!! and no one on the UK List have easy access to a DO
meter.

I'm sure I've seen figures for Shaking a carboy / Using 20mins air / 20sec
O2 Bursts and IIRC Dr Cone said something like (I'm not a librarian and
haven't access to the archives :> ) "7-8ppm O2 is good for initial yeast
growth, >12 ppm is becoming toxic to yeast"

So what is the best way for using a stainless stone, Just dangle it in the
Wort and Pump Air for 20 mins / 02 for 3 times 20 sec bursts. Shove it in
the Wort outflow from the chiller (Which is what a few of us will do / have
done). Invest in a closed conical fermenter and use it under pressure. One
member uses 5 BBL Grundy tanks with a manway so he could pressurise that to
20psi with O2 :>

- --
Wassail!
The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

UK HOMEBREW - A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK
              Managed by home brewers for home brewers

To Subscribe send blank email to uk-homebrew-subscribe at smartgroups.com 
This message has been scanned by F-Secure Anti-Virus for Microsoft Exchange
as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:53:54 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Salt Correction Factors

Tom or Dee McConnell said:

>First I make no profession of knowing much about
>chemistry.

And neither do I.  When I made the original post asking if water was a
problem, I stated that my chemistry knowledge was limited to two college
courses 30 years ago and helping my kids in high school chemistry.

After that, a series of private emails ensued with people eminently more
qualified than I.  The factors I posted were the consensus from those
emails.  I guess I was nominated to be the spear-catcher.

I will try to answer your questions the best I can from my limited knowledge
base.  If someone out there has a better description, please speak up.


>I looked at you spreadsheet and notice that you
>have x moles of water for a given salt.  How did
>you come up with this?  Sounds like FM (freakin'
>magic) to me.

The "x moles of water" came from one or more catalogs published by chemical
companies.

In some cases, for example CaCl2, there were multiple forms listed.  I
believe they were, anhydride,monohydride, dihidrate and hexahydrate which I
believe are 0,1,2,and 6 H2Os per CaCl2 respectively.  It was decided that
brewers would most likely encounter the dihidrate form.  I don't know why.

Still, if exposed to air, it will take up H2O to become the hexahydrate form
and even more.  I believe one catalog said heating at 30C will return it to
the dihidrate form.

Since learning this, I weigh a teaspoon of CaCl2 when it is fresh and use
teaspoon measures after that.  Of course if the size of the particles
changes over time, this technique doesn't work either.  Still, I think it
will get me close enough, at least closer than ignoring the water content
entirely.

Hope this helps

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY


********************************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
********************************************************************





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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:04:11 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: New subscriber introduction/ 3 questions

Welcome to "Jens Briesofsky" <bries at gmx.net> of London, late of 
Germany, who suspects he types mit an accent ;-).

He writes of his lagers:

>on both I observed that the
>(vertical) walls
>of the bottles were like "dusted", since the beer was clear on bottling,
>presumably with yeast. I read
>(in one of Papazians books) that this is due to a lack of yeast nutritients.

This doesn't seem likely to me, since you were brewing all malt 
beers.  I am surprised that it is so tenacious that you have to scrub 
it out.  Yeast usually rinses out.  But yeast does sometimes cling to 
the sides of bottles.  Perhaps it's some kind of electrostatic thing. 
Water salts and/or pH might have something to do with it.  Did you 
really need the acid malt to get proper pH?  You might try a 
different lager yeast for your next brew.

>Second Question:
>Even in England it is now too warm in my garage/shed for
>lagering and I have no second fridge, and because of little space in our
>house there is no way to fit one in (at least not without risking a
>domestic...).

I am not sanguine about your chances of brewing lager without 
temperature control.  Is there any room in your shed for a fridge?

Some brewers have reported success controlling temperature without a 
fridge, but it's fussy, using ice and insulation.  But it can be 
done.  Someone else may be able to point you to some web sites.  But 
there is a reason that lager brewing was done October to May 
traditionally.  The trick is to brew enough to last all summer, then 
drink the leftover at Oktoberfest.

You may have to face that domestic ... .

Freezing yeast can be done, but I have not done it.  Brewers have 
also reported success in storing yeast under sterile distilled water 
at room temperature.  The archives from several years ago should shed 
some light on this.  http://hubris.engin.umich.edu/cgi-bin/dothread

One final thing.  To supplement HBD from a local source, you might 
want to subscribe to UK-HB 
http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/uk-homebrew.  They tend to brew 
mostly ales there, but there are a few pilsner and weizenbier fans, 
especially the moderator, Tony Barnsley.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 08:54:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Jim Liddil <jliddil at VMS.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: plambic

Keith asked about making pseudo-lambic.  You might look at www.liddil.com
as a start. Also once upon a time there was a lambic digest and the
archives can be searched via the HBD search page.  

Jim Liddil
North Haven, CT



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 13:07:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: water analysis

I want to get my filtered tap water analyzed (analysed?) so that I
can learn a little more about water chemistry and it's effects
on beer. The lady at the EPA gave me the names of a couple of companies
near my house that can do this for me, but I don't know what to ask
for. Do I need to know about percentages of disolved solids? pH? 
Total hardness? Total alkalinity? Ion content? Thanks for your help!

- -- 
Ed Jones

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:20:56 -0400
From: David Harsh <dharsh at fuse.net>
Subject: consider the topic dead, Steve

Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net> wrote: 

<  entire post snipped >

I'm not going to play your game anymore, Steve.  Go lecture someone who
will listen.

Dave Harsh					Bloatarian Brewing League
Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 16:32:41 -0400
From: "Rich Beecher" <rbeecher at hotmail.com>
Subject: Ingredients for a Scottish Ale Recipe

19 June

   I've seen the following listed in various recipes for "Scottish" Ale. 
Does anybody have any idea where they may be purchased?

Sweet Gale
Heather Flowers
Bog Myrtle Leaves

   Thank you much for your help.

Rich Beecher
West Virginia, U.S.A.




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Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 22:32:54 -0000
From: "Jim Moeller" <jim_moeller at hotmail.com>
Subject: What is more important, temperature control during fermentation or fermenters ge

Greetings,

What is more important, temperature control during fermentation or 
fermenters geometry?  I plan on purchasing or making a 10+ gallon 
fermenters.  The two that I'm presently considering are the Sabco converted 
keg and the 3B conical.  Here are a few things that I am considering: with 
the Sabco I could afford another frig and a temp control.  On the other 
hand, 3B states that they can help me find an used commercial frig, but 
shipping from VA to CA would be costly.  I brew a wide range of Ales and 
ferment in my basement with glass carboys.  The basement ranges from 60 in 
the winter and 68 during the summer.  Even though my ambient temp is perfect 
for most ales, I have noticed if I repitch on a yeast cake of Irish ale the 
temp stays around 80 until the majority of the ferment is over.  In general 
my beers taste good and go away rather quickly, but like the most of you, I 
strive to always improve my product by understanding and implementing the 
best techniques at hand.  In a perfect world I would purchase the 3B conical 
with the chiller built in, but at $1300, its a little hard to justify to 
SWMBO.

Jim Moeller





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Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:26:05 +0930
From: Philip Ritson <philip.ritson at adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Wyeast 1338 in Mild ale


> >
> > I've just checked the Wyeast resources on the web and they have Wyeast
> > 1338 - European Ale as their second preference for British Mild.
> > Granted, its one of the less attenuative yeast's in their portfolio and
> > the residual sugars left behind would suit a low gravity beer like Mild;
> > but, all their other recommendations for this style are more attenuative
> > and British or Irish  in origin.  Has anyone used 1338 in Mild Ale?  If
> > you wanted a fuller bodied result, wouldn't 1968 - London ESB be a
> > better choice?  If so, why do Wyeast recommend it after 1338?
> >
> > How did it work out?


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