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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: H2O2 and removing residue in bottles/carboys ("Jens Briesofsky")
  England/Scotland Pub Tours ("Nigel Porter")
  Re: Fruit Beers  Aaargh! (Matthew Comstock)
  O2 Flow v. Pressure (mohrstrom)
  Cleaning Carboys ("David Craft")
  Re: Counter Pressure Filling a Lager (Jeff Renner)
  Re: H2O2 and bleach (Matthew Comstock)
  Re: DO measurements (Demonick)
  Cherry beer for SWMBO (Beaverplt)
  Re: Water Analysis (Hubert Hanghofer)
  Mad River Jamaica Red Hops (Peter Torgrimson)
  Now that's a lunch break (Jeff Renner)


* 
* 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA
* June 20th-23rd See http://www.beerodyssey.com for more 
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* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 06:35:17 +0100
From: "Jens Briesofsky" <bries at gmx.net>
Subject: Re: H2O2 and removing residue in bottles/carboys

Steven wrote:

> With regards to H2O2 as an O2 source, what causes H2O2 to release the
> additional oxygen atom??? 2H2O2 >> 2H2O + O2??

This is unfortunatly not the reaction that takes place. What happens is

H2O2 -> H20 + O*

H2O2 is an instable molecule that falls easily apart in water and a oxygen
radical (a single
oxgen atom, oxygen "in statu nascendi" it is called i belive). This is
triggered solely by the
presence of a suitable catalyst (a lot of organic matter triggers this).

This oxygen radical is *VERY* reactive and reacts spontaneously with
everything that has
the tendency to oxydise, usually much quicker than it finds anonther O* so
that the
desireable O2 is created (O* + *O -> O-O = O2)

This is the reason why H2O2 bleaches your hair (it destroys the
melanin-pigment) and normal O2 in the air does not.

If you put H2O2 in your wort I would suspect you get all sorts of fatty
peroxides and oxydised hop
oils and sugars and not so much dissolved oxygen.

I regard that as a potential health risk and will no try it - but a perfect
way to find out would
be if one of you guys who can brew large batches makes a nice wort, splits
it in two halves and
oxygenates one as before and one with H2O2. Do a blind tasting. My bets for
the better beer goes for the one without H2O2.

Jens






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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:50:59 +0100
From: "Nigel Porter" <nigel at sparger.co.uk>
Subject: England/Scotland Pub Tours

Jeff Wood asked about UK pubs etc.

If you are staying in Olympia, that is very convienient for getting to 
the White Horse in Parsons Green - a damn fine real ale pub (plus 
assorted bottles of other fine European beers). Visit their website for 
details of where they are and how to get there. If you are planning a 
visit there, do mail me as it is fairly easy for me to get there from 
where I live.

http://www.whitehorsesw6.com/

Also, Great British Beer Festival is 31 July - 4 August and staying in 
Olympia is the best place to be for it. If you are visiting GBBF drop a 
mail to the UK Homebrew List, as many of the people there will be 
going along or working.

http://www.gbbf.org/2001/index4.htm

Do have fun in the UK - the summer so far has been fairly dry and 
warm. It'll probably be pissing down by the time you get here though 
<g>

Nigel Porter
Guildford, Surrey, UK




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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 04:54:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Fruit Beers  Aaargh!

Neal,

A lot of other folks might have brewed wonderful
fruit beers.  The worst beer I ever made was a
chocolate raspberry stout.  I still have two
cases (minus the one bottle I tasted) left.  I'm
letting it mellow with age.  Let me tell you it
will take a while.  The combination of stout,
bitter chocolate and tangy raspberries were
simply too much.  I've sworn off fruit beers for
life.

But, I believe you are in a situation where you
can't refuse to try.  The term 'beer bullets'
comes to mind....  If you boil the fruit you may
run into problems.  I think the established
procedure for fruit additions is to add fruit
just as you turn off the heat to the boil. 
Sitting around in near boiling wort is probably
enough to destroy harmful microbes.  I'd brew a
darker beer so that if there IS haze you won't
(or your wife won't) notice it.  Have fun!

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:46:29 -0400
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: O2 Flow v. Pressure

Ant Hayes asks:
>>>
Subject: Dissolving Oxygen

I use a 1 micron air stone and pump oxygen at 3 litres per minute for 5
minutes in my 50 litre fermenter (stainless CCV - approx 60 litre
volume) - Jeremy Wallis' RoT method. The regulator is meant for medical
uses where I guess volume per minute is preferable to pressure. However,
I don't know how to convert l/min to psi (or to kPa for that matter).
<<<

Without knowing the orifice size of the regulator ( the size of the
internal "through hole"), flow won't convert directly to pressure, but I
think that volume is more important here also.

For those wanting to calibrate the flow at a given pressure setting for
their regulator, I suggest inverting a water-filled one liter bottle in a
bucket of water and bubble the O2 up into the bottle, displacing the water.
If it takes 30 seconds, you've got 2l/min flow at that setting.  Best
accuracy would be gained at the same depth (and with the same liquid
density, but hey ...) as the fermenter.  Keep SWMBO happy by performing
this 'spurment in the bathtub...

BTW, 1 kPa = 0.145 psi


Mark (longing to be in LA for the NHC) in Kalamazoo




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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:50:10 -0400
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Cleaning Carboys

I usually put some PBW brand, powdered brewery wash, in the carboy and let
it soak for about a week.  It seems to get everything out....I wonder if TSP
is about the same and would do the same for much less?  Any ideas?

David Craft
Greensboro,  NC

Battleground Brewers



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 09:05:06 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Counter Pressure Filling a Lager

Ant Hayes <Ant.Hayes at FifthQuadrant.co.za> writes pf his problems cp 
bottling highly carbonated lagers and asks

>Does anyone have any tips - would it help to chill the bottles?

Yes, put those bottles in the freezer.  The reason your PET bottles 
don't foam so badly is that they have very little heat capacity and 
so don't warm the beer very much.  While you're at it, put the cp 
filler in the freezer as well.

Cheers

Jeff

- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:07:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Comstock <mccomstock at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: H2O2 and bleach

Steven Parfitt and others asked about H2O2 and
bleach.

H2O2 will oxidize beer (ingredients) before it
gives off O2.  The 2H2O2 -> 2H2O + O2 route of
decomposition is best considered a self-oxidation
(i.e. one mole of H2O2 oxidizes another mol of
H2O2).  If other stuff is around to oxidize (like
wort), both types of oxidation will occur
concurrently.  So said everyone else already, but
check out the website:

http://h2o2.com/ 

The internet is cool.

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl, in a basic
lye (sodium hydroxide) solution.  See 'What is
bleach':

http://www.clorox.com/science/rmp/how.html

NaHCO3 is sodium bicarbonate = baking soda.  See:

http://users.rcn.com/sue.interport//food/bakgsoda.html

Happy Brewing

Matt Comstock in Cincinnati, OH



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 07:43:10 -0700
From: Demonick <demonick at zgi.com>
Subject: Re: DO measurements

"A.J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com> stated:
>Yes, I have done some DO measurements but I am presently far from home ...

Below is A.J.'s post on the subject from Wed, 3 Jan 1996.  I keep the
really good ones :-)

Note that the experient was done with 2.5 gallons in a 5 gallon carboy.
This is why pure oxygen maintained a >100% DO level for over 22 hours.  I
think that the O2 in the 2.5 gallons of headspace represented a 500% DO
level (air is about 20% O2) and once the sealed carboy equilibriated the
wort would have contained something around 300% of atmospheric DO levels.

- -----------------------------------------------
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Aeration/Crabtree/Lime/Freezing Point

In #1926 Jim Hust asked if his wort might have been under aerated after a
minute of sloshing:
In a recent experiment I found the following levels of dissolved oxygen
(relative to saturation) in 2.5 gal of water in a 5 gallon carboy (1)
shaken VERY vigorously; (2) aerated with compressed air bubbled through an
airstone with gentle swirling and (3) pure oxygen bubbled through an
airstone with gentle swirling:

       Time             Shaking      Compressed Air      Oxygen
        1 minute         55%             40%               85%
        2                70              62               145
        3                75              75                -
        4                80              82
        5                82              90
        6                84              92
        8                87              98

D.O. level at time 0 was about 7% in all cases. Thus shaking the carboy for
a short period of time is not terribly effective and the agitation must be
quite violent. This is the reason the carboy was only filled half full. It
would be impossible to agitate it violently enough if full. The key to
getting oxygen to dissolve is tiny bubbles dispersed throughout. That is
why the air stone is so effective.

Note that the amount of O2 which will dissolve is a pretty strong function
of temperature with saturation (100%) being about 8 mg/l at room
temperature and close to 15 mg/l near freezing. Also note that it is quite
possible to acheive and maintain >100% when using a carboy. If, in the
course of oxygenation, the headspace becomes filled with oxygen and is then
sealed off with a fermentation lock the amount of dissolved O2 will stay
close to its value at the time the O2 was shut off. In the experiment which
lead to the numbers above the DO level peaked at 14.2 mg/l (154% at 18.3C)
and was found to be at 14.1 mg/l (158% at 20.2C) 22 hours later. If this is
a concern, after aeration with pure oxygen, blow a stream of clean
compressed air into the carboy after clear the O2. The DO level will then
equilibrate with the O2 in the air and you will arrive at 100% fairly
quickly.

Note also that O2 is somewhat less soluble in concentrated worts than in
water. For example, 20P wort equilibarates with the atmosphere at about 85%
of the water saturation level.




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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Beaverplt <beaverplt at yahoo.com>
Subject: Cherry beer for SWMBO

Neal laments about brewing a fruit beer. I can lament
along with you, sir, for my wife asked the same favor
last winter. And as we all know with SWMBO a favor is
a command. 

She wanted a cherry beer that had more "beer taste"
than the New Glarus Belgian Red made in Wisconsin. I
looked for a grain recipe but ended up doing the
recipe for Feelix the cat dark cherry lager that I
found on Cat's Meow. I used tart cherries and went the
5 lb for 5 gallon route. I went with frozen pitted
cherries rather than pitting my own. It's been in the
bottle now for 4 months and every one we've opened (I
bottle conditioned for 2 months before the first one)
has just gotten better according to her. It's not to
my taste so I have only tasted it twice, but
considering what she wanted I'd say that recipe hit
the nail on the head. One other thing, if you don't
like tart fruit use a sweeter cherry.  

WOW, 2 posts in two days. I'd better go practice
lurking some more.


=====
Jerry "Beaver" Pelt

That's my story and I'm sticking to it



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:32:26 +0200
From: Hubert Hanghofer <hhanghof at netbeer.co.at>
Subject: Re: Water Analysis

Hi all,

Larry Kress from Ontario wanted to know:

> I got my well water analysis results.
> Is my water good for brewing or how can I treat it?

Larry, before you can think about using that water for brewing - or even 
drinking - you should clarify one important thing with your water supplier:

> Nitrate Nitrogen......................   14.00  PPM

Are those 14ppm really specified as Nitrogen (N)?
Because if so, that would mean your water actually has 62 ppm Nitrate 
(specified as NO3) and that's a lot - I can't believe that such high values 
are still permitted for drinking waters!

The European community directive is 50mg/L (ppm - specified as NO3), that's 
IMO already a rather high limit, but the target values are <25ppm - 
especially if the water is to be used for infants.

In brewing, more than 30ppm NO3 is considered problematic, because yeast 
reduces Nitrate to Nitrite (NO2) which in turn is toxic to yeast. According 
to Narziss, the resulting effects depend on the overall mineral content of 
the water. If it is soft (total salt content / dry matter < 100ppm) an 
inhibition of yeast growth and fermentation may already be observed at 20ppm 
NO3 whereas water with 1000ppm total mineral content and 50ppm NO3 may yield 
in normal fermentations.

Unfortunately there is no easy or cheap way to remove excess Nitrate. Water 
suppliers nowadays use bioreactors, where the NO3 is removed by sessile 
microorganisms that utilize the NO3-Oxygen. Selective anion exchange filters 
or RO could be used at home - but that's expensive. Best way is to *start a 
revolution* and urge the suppliers or legislators to care for quality water!

 ...Nitrate sucks!



Hope this helps

Allzeit gut Sud!
Hubert Hanghofer
Salzburg, Austria

www.netbeer.org


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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:06:08 -0700
From: Peter Torgrimson <petertorgrimson at prodigy.net>
Subject: Mad River Jamaica Red Hops

Brent ("Echols, Brent" <BEchols at hineshort.com>) inquired about hops used
in Mad River's Jamaica Red.

My understanding is that the characteristic flavor comes from dry
hopping with Chinook hops.  I have tried this a couple of times and I
like the result although I have never produced a real clone to Jamaica
Red.

I also have used Columbus hops as a dry hop and late-addition hop, and I
recommend it.  I believe North Coast's Red Seal Ale uses Columbus hops.

Each of these high alpha acid hops has a very distinctive flavor profile
when used for finishing.

Peter Torgrimson
Worts Of Wisdom Homebrewers
Mountain View, CA



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Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 20:13:29 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Now that's a lunch break

Brewers

Check out

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,510202,00.html

Then someone alert M.A.D.D.!  It seems that the Belgians are serving 
beer at school lunch!

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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