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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  mellowing bitterness for the nonbelivers (Aaron Perry)
  TSP in carboys (Aaron Perry)
  Re: Water+ ("A.J. deLange")
  Re: M.A.D.D. in Belgium ("G Zellmann")
  Blackberry Stout (leavitdg)
  Micros in Anchorage (Ralph Link)
  Conversion ("David Craft")
  Wyeast quest's (Jeff Hertz)
  Brewpubs/Breweries ("H. Neal Andreae")
  root beer (Chuck Dougherty)
  RE: CP bottling ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems ("Peter Fantasia")
  Head retention in keg ("Jim Hagey")
  Re: H2O2 Ingestion and HSO ("patrick finerty jr.")
  Re. Classic American Pilsner vs. Cream Ale ("Darryl Newbury")
  Beer along I-80... (Nathan Matta)
  Efficiency with partial Mashing (Phil Wilcox)
  Grain Mills ("Dennis Collins")
  A pain in my glass!!! (Phil Wilcox)
  hydrogen peroxide, or "Bleaching Your Beer" ("Dr. Pivo")
  CAP and cream ale recipes: part 1 (Jeff Renner)


* 
* 2001 AHA NHC - 2001: A Beer Odyssey, Los Angeles, CA
* June 20th-23rd See http://www.beerodyssey.com for more 
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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:14:40 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <secretlab at mediaone.com>
Subject: mellowing bitterness for the nonbelivers

Hey folks,

I just made a special bitter for a summer BBQ party. I was rushing around
and miscalculated my bitterness a bit. The brew has a bitterness that I'm ok
with, although a bit much for the style. I'm sure that the budmillercoors
crowd will all pucker and spit when they taste it. I'd like to tamper with
it to get some balance....but I'm not sure where to turn. I've used Lactose
in porters and stouts to counter bitterness, but I'm afraid it won't be
appropriate in this bitter. I toyed with the idea of steeping a pound or so
of light crystal (like carapils), boiling it, cooling and adding it in. I
can't think of why this wouldn't work, but I figured I'd post it to see what
you all think!? Any help or insight is appreciated. Private and public posts
(preferably both..I'm short on time) are cool. Thanks

Aaron Perry
secretlab at mediaone.net

  



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 00:21:18 -0400
From: Aaron Perry <secretlab at mediaone.com>
Subject: TSP in carboys

Hi,

David Craft wrote,"I usually put some PBW brand, powdered brewery wash, in
the carboy and let it soak for about a week.  It seems to get everything
out....I wonder if TSP is about the same and would do the same for much
less?  Any ideas?"

My box of TSP states that it will etch glass...I'd avoid usinfg it in a
carboy. Hope this helps.

Aaron Perry
secretlab at mediaone.net



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:20:42 +0100
From: "A.J. deLange" <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Water+


Steve asks about a more complete list of water parameters. The "significant
seven" (Steve's reference to Kirosawa demostrates that the mnemonic has worked
on at least one guy) covers the parameters of most significance to brewing
[start italics] assuming the water is potable [end italics] per the standards
of the WHO or the country in question. There is a whole range of things to be
found in water which influence its suitability for brewing (nitrate being one)
but these are of secondary importance (relative to the significant seven) as
long as the water is fit to drink. For example nitrate in municipal supplies in
the US is limited to 10 mg/L, well below what is problematical for brewing,
because of the fear of methemoglobinemia in infants ("blue baby" disease). A
possible exception to this would be iron which is allowed at levels up to .3
mg/L in the US (actually this is an aesthetic limit - there is no primary
limit) which might be a bit high for brewing.

When moving to a well one is not, of course, protected by the various drinking
water standards imposed upon public supplies. Well owners should, therefore,
arrange for a complete test of the well to include organics, inorganics,
biological and even radiological assay in areas where radon is found. The first
three series can often be bought as a package for a something like $130 - $150.
Look in the yellow pages - there is a national company that mails you a little
kit with a mini-esky and some ice-packs. You fill the bottles and Fedex
overnight back to them (this is done to keep the bugs, if any, alive). A report
comes back in a few days with what they found and the MCL (limit) for each
substance tested for. Armed with a favorable report you know that the water is
potable and whether you have highish levels of metals (copper, zinc, iron,
manganese, chromium). Unfortunately, alkalinity and the separate hardnesses are
not of interest from the health point of view so they are rarely reported. Now
you are back to the significant seven. I recommend that brewers on wells get
some of the simple (sulfate excepted - no simple test for that) kits made by
several manufacturers (Lamotte, Hach...) and test for these parameters yourself
on a regular basis. I do it for every brew - its a nice way to fill in those
boring times waiting for conversions to complete, the vorlauf to run clear, the
boil to complete.... Where copper or iron are a problem equally simple kits can
be obtained to test for those.

As for a list - several of the brewing texts (DeClerk, Hardwick come to mind)
have discussions of the individual ions and their effects on yeast and the beer
in general. Moll (in Hardwick) in particular seems to have scanned and
summarized the literature on this subject. I'm once again far, far from home
and thus unable to be more specific at this point.

A.J.

>



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:54:49 +0200
From: "G Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Re: M.A.D.D. in Belgium

Rob Hanson wrote:

>   Seriously, though: anything that encourages a healthy
> enjoyment/relationship with/use of beer and wine (who knows, the program
> cold spread to France!), I think is a far sight better than our often
> myopic and prohibitive attempts to curb the "evils of drink"  -- all
> those efforts ought to begin at a young age, and really can't be
> successfully legislated against by the time one reaches his teens.
>
>   Flame away. It's only electrons.

No flame from my side! I agree 100%.

I grew up in a part of Bavaria (Franconia), where there is at least one
brewery/restaurant in each small village. As I was 10 or 11 years old, my
parents allowed me (not encouraged!) one half pint of beer to go with
dinner, when we were out eating in one of those places. The beer maybe had
around 4% abv. And I find this was the right thing to do. Most parents there
do introduce a century old tradition this way.
I never had an alcohol poisoning.Many of my class mates in later years did.
And I learned some responsibility towards myself, I might have missed
otherwise. OK, I drink an average of 2 pints of beer a day now, but I did
not become an alcoholist! :)
On the other hand, I met a lot of people whose parents were very strict and
restrictive about alcohol with their kids and guess what, some of them have
big problems with alcohol.
On a side note: My parents were very strict and tough trying to prevent me
trying pot (as they were afraid, I would end up with heroin). I remember
that the more they warned me about it, the more urgent I wanted to (and did)
give pot a try.

Hey, this is just *my* experience! I am *not* intending to make a general
rule saying give your kids beer, and they won't end up as alcoholists!
Selling beer in a school still does sound a bit too much. I would expect
tipsy pupils fall asleep during the day or at least a lack in concentration.
I would not want my kids to be in a school like this.

cheers

Gregor Zellmann
Berlin Germany





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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:37:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: Blackberry Stout

Here is the recipe for a 5.5 gal batch of BlackBerry Stout that I just
pigged and bottled yesterday.  It tasted so good that I thought I'd post 
it.

7 lb Maris Otter
2 lb Wheat 
1.75 lb Vienna
1.5 lb Torrified Barley
1 lb (`80L) Crystal (Fawcetts...VERY tasty!)
 .75 lb Caraffa III
1 lb Rye (Fawcett's)
1/2 cup Chocolate Malt

2 stage infusion: 148F for 30, then ramped up to 159F for 30 (using Polarware
mash-tun, applied heat while reirculating by hand to raise temp...), mash 
out at 170F.


First runnings were 1.084
Boil gravity was 1.062
Sparged with ~6 gal pH adjusted 175F water
Original gravity was 1.066
Secondary Gravity was  1.028
<ADDED 3lb Oregon Products Blackberry Puree to the secondary> <==
Final Gravity was 1.020


%abv was 5.98%

used yeast cake from previous batch of East Coast Amber Ale (wlp008 ...its
3rd and final use)

yielded 1 pig and 24 - 16 oz Grosch bottles...

tasted wonderful!

Most of my malt comes from NorthCountry Malt Supply...no connection,..but I like
their malt....

 ...Darrell


















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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 07:20:49 -0500
From: Ralph Link <rlink15 at home.com>
Subject: Micros in Anchorage

I plan on being in Anchorage and Seward in early July. Can anyone recommend 
any local Micros that they know of. Thanks personal e-mail is much 
appreciated.
Ralph 



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 08:24:26 -0400
From: "David Craft" <David-Craft at craftinsurance.com>
Subject: Conversion

Hello,

I have been all grain since spring and done 5 batches,  all very good.  It
seems that the two Lager batches took forever to convert, 90 minutes to 2
hours versus 45 minutes for Ale malts.  Is this typical? I do a single step
infusion. I could add a protein rest without much trouble, but have not.
Would that help?  One batch was mostly Munich and the other mostly Pilsner
malt.....

Your thoughts,


David B. Craft

PS-  I also have a novice homebrew friend dieing to do a Lambic. I saw the
recent Zymurgy article and am curious if anyone used acid malt with good
results versus the ugly bacteria..........



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 06:36:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Hertz <duckinchicago at yahoo.com>
Subject: Wyeast quest's

I just did an APA over the weekend and used a Wyeast
pack and was just wondering why it has never taken
off.  I was using the XL size of their "Northwest Ale"
yeast, smacked it on Wednesday, gave it two days at 70
degrees to rise (it rose only minimally), then I made
my usual 1000 ml starter Friday, pitched the pack in
the starter, and pitched the whole starter in my wort
on Saturday night.  24 hours later..nothing...no
bubbling, no krausen...so being Sunday and no
brewshops open in my area, I didn't have many options
and had to pitch a yeast cake from a Saison that I had
in secondary. The other strange thing is the Wyeast
slurry had a reddish color to it which seemed odd.
   Now, 12 hours later-much bubbling and frothing
thanks to my substitute yeast and I'm wondering about
the logic of Wyeast and why I should use it anymore. 
Over the last two years, I've used White Labs vials
for all but three batches and had virtually no
trouble.  Two of the three times I've used Wyeast
packs, the pack didn't rise within 3 days and I had
major fermentation problems.  No, this is not a veiled
advertisement for White Labs.  I like the idea of
Wyeast, and I know they're a big supporter of
homebrewing, but is their product really this hard to
use or am I doing something wrong?  Do you need to
wait for the pack to rise before pitching it into a
starter?  How long do people usually wait for the pack
to rise?  

Any input is most appreciated.

Jeff Hertz
Glen Ellyn, IL



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 10:24:30 -0400
From: "H. Neal Andreae" <cstone at shentel.net>
Subject: Brewpubs/Breweries

Hello Folks
I'll be in Myrtle Beach South Carolina for the month of July. Does anyone
know of any Brewpubs/Breweries or even a bar with a broad selection in
fermentables.
Thanks in advance.
Bottoms Up
Neal-Upperville, Virginia



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:23:02 -0500
From: Chuck Dougherty <jdougherty at wlj.com>
Subject: root beer

> I found the Cresswell book in my local library, and the recipes were so
> interesting that I thought I would try my hand at root beer with natural
> ingredients.  I found sassafras, sarsaparilla, licorice, and pretty much
> anything else you can think of to put in root beer at my local whole foods
> store.  Be warned though; dried sassafras root is expensive.  It is also
> incredibly pungent, so if you work indoors, be prepared for your kitchen
> to smell like root beer for days.
> 
> Cresswell discusses the issue of whether sassafras is a health problem.
> There were experiments with laboratory animals that indicate it may be a
> carcinogen.  This is why you can't buy real root beer in stores, and also
> why you can no longer buy that green sassafras tea extract that used to be
> popular here down South.  Review the literature and draw your own
> conclusions about the risk.  You can make some great natural root beers
> without sassafras if you're willing to experiment a little, and of course
> there is also ginger ale, cream soda, and lots of others.
> 
> Cresswell suggests using yeast for carbonation and bottling in glass beer
> bottles.  Ignore both of these recommendations.  I carbonate my homemade
> soft drinks in 2L plastic bottles with Carbonator caps.  This approach is
> safer, more consistent, and far less trouble.  As previously suggested in
> this thread, you need to really crank up the pressure to sufficiently
> carbonate soft drinks, but be careful not to exceed the maximum
> recommended pressure for the Carbonator caps.  If you don't have a kegging
> system, at least consider using plastic instead of glass.  Soft drinks are
> inherently unstable and will, sooner or later, turn on you.  And of course
> the whole safety issue is a great excuse to invest in a kegging system if
> you don't already have one.
> 
> Chuck Dougherty
> Little Rock, Arkansas


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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:01:08 -0400
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: RE: CP bottling

As Pat and Steve point out, counter pressure filling is not that difficult.
I do recommend getting the keg as cold as possible and usually have it
pressurized to about 30 PSI.  At one point I did get the bottles cold but
found that it isn't necessary; but at least cool bottles are needed, IMHO,
not directly from the dish washer or oven.  I also chilled the CPFer but
after the first bottle is filled, it's then as cold as it would have been
anyway so I've stopped that process.  One part of my process that stopped a
lot of the foaming (although as Steve points out, capping on some foam is
good since it's reducing the amount of O2 in the bottle) is to relieve the
pressure in the keg and then apply just enough additional CO2 to match and
keep what's in the beer.  Thus equilibrium is reached without excessive CO2
on the beer in the bottle at the end of the bottling process.  Since it's at
equilibrium, you don't get the sudden gushing if you had a higher pressure
that's suddenly released.  Also, a bench capper is, IMHO, a must to make
this easy.  I CPF and cap by myself and it works.  The most onerous task to
me is cleaning and sanitizing the CPFer.  

Dave Houseman


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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:29:48 -0400
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Raising pH with slaked lime- problems

I also have very low ph water. The water in the Pine Barrens of South Jersey
is naturally acidic. I've had water tests done and they have shown the water
to be very soft. Almost no dissolved minerals. Most townships will do this
test at a nominal price. An additional  test for "organics"  would include
farm pollution from excess fertilizer etc...
    I've had both tests run on my water and haven't found anything that is
harmful. The organic test gives results for 60 something compounds.

 I usually add 1 3/4 tsp CaCO3 to 18 qts water for an 18 lb mash. This
brings my mash ph to 5.3 which is ideal. Troy might be having a problem
because he is trying to add the CaCO3 to COLD water. Try heating it first.

    A.J. writes "try using the
lime water to bring the pH to about 8 and then mashing with that."

Why would you want to bring the ph up so high?
I would also be cautious about adding too much sodium bicarbonate due to the
extra sodium addition.
    Some one also wanted to know what effect the acid water has on pipes. It
eats through copper. So I have almost all PVC.
    As far as I know the water quality here in the Pine Barrens has always
been rated very good. I have a well here and the water tastes as good or
better than any bottled spring water and it makes great beer.
Cheers
Piney Pete


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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:35:40 -0400
From: "Jim Hagey" <hagey at attglobal.net>
Subject: Head retention in keg

In HBD #3668 Mark Dickeson writes :

> I seem to be having a few troubles with my keg setup. After fermentation
> I pour it into the keg and pressurize it to 200 kPa (30 psi), then leave
> it 4-5 days. After this, I drop the pressure to 50-70 kPa (8-10 psi)
> ready for serving. My problem is that initially the beer pours very
> frothy although the head quickly diminishes and the beer itself isn't
> very gassy. As I use more of the keg, the frothing eventually ceases but
> the problem with lack of carbonation is still there. I have bottled some
> beer from the same batch and there is no problem so I am assuming the
> keg setup is my problem. Do you think I need to leave it longer, or use
> a higher pressure, or is there some other problem. Thanks for any
> thoughts.


I don't see you mentioning any shaking or rolling of the keg.  If you are
mearly placing the pressurized CO2 on the top of your beer, it will take a
long time to disolve into your product.  Try putting the 30psi on a chilled
keg then rolling it around the kitchen for a few minutes.  Then repeat the
process two or three times.  Release the excess pressure and serve at your
normal pressure.  Saves a few days and really allows that CO2 to be disolved
into your yummy product.

Hope this helps.

Jim
Beer and loafing in Kalamazoo




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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 11:42:16 -0400
From: "patrick finerty jr." <zinc at finerty.net>
Subject: Re: H2O2 Ingestion and HSO

On Sunday 24 June, 2001, Tombrau at aol.com wrote:

 > Hello Fellow Brewers:
 > 
 > I have been following the H2O2 thread vaguely and recalled that there is a 
 > belief that ingesting food grade H2O2 cures anaerobic illnesses such as  
 > cancer and viral diseases.
 > 
 > There are several books and websites (oxytherapy.com, for one) that make 
 > quite a case for oxygenating your body for good health. 

i'd say it's good for health! however, i generally prefer to
'oxygenate' my body by actually breathing air, YMMV.

so, on one hand we have Pauling and his very large doses of vitamin C
(an antioxidant) and on the other we have people who want me to
oxidize my body. what's a guy to do? well, i'm just going to sit back
and let my superoxide dismutase do it's job.

brew more beer...

- -- 
The world does not have to be this way.

Patrick J. Finerty, Jr., Ph.D.
Forman-Kay Laboratory
Hospital for Sick Children
http://finerty.net/pjf


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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:53:32 -0500
From: "Darryl Newbury" <darryl at sagedesign.com>
Subject: Re. Classic American Pilsner vs. Cream Ale

Jeff Renner wrote: ...
> there is a reason that lagers blew ales out of the water in most of the
>world in the 
 
>19th century.  Damn, it's good!  (Did I say that already?)

While CAP is a wonderful style, especially if brewed by Jeff, the 19th
Century shift in style popularity had alot to do with factors outside of
consumer preference. It was after all a period of massive change in which
smaller producers (who brewed a wide range of styles), were gradually
being pushed out of the market by bigger industrial breweries who found
benefit in producing fewer styles technically well. That period also saw a
shift in transportation methods with the rapid growth of a rail network
making it easier for larger breweries to transport their product and use
their economies of scale to undercut the local competition. Thus, larger
breweries penetrating larger a geographic market had an increase in brand
recognition.

In addition to the economic factors that gave pilsner a competitive
advantage in North America, there were other factors as well.
Predominently, there was the arrival of German immigrants, who brought
with them an understanding of brewing science which far exceeded the
previous generation of brewers here and they of course, brewed lagers.
Therefore, it can probably be assumed that the the technical quality and
stability of lagers far exceeded that of existing ales. 

A major contributing factor outside of taste, which led to a shift in
consumer choice was the visual appeal of CAPs. Imagine being a 19th
Century ale drinker in Canada or the US, having never seen a light, clear
beer and setting your eyes on your first pilsner -  the visuals of a CAP
would be similar to the visual appeal of darker beers for people today
when the make the switch from industial to craft beer. Both clear glass
for serving, and malting changes which led to beer that was neither
opaque, cloudy or murky were new had an substantial impact on the
marketplace. The rise of Cream Ales, in fact, was a direct response by ale
brewers to the increasing popularly of pilsner, they too needed a bright
clear beer to put in the glass mugs that were rising in popularity.

And as enjoyable a style CAP may have been, its popularly led to a decline
in competition as fewer producers made more beer, and with less
competition out there, the number cruchers at the big breweries took over
and looked to ways to cut costs -- and out went the hops. Therefore the
rise in popularity of CAP led to a declince in choice which inevidably
enabled its replacement with the American Standard Lager (also known as
megaswill to many on this forum), a style which probably dominates the
market more due marketing and the bottom line of the corporations that
produce them than to consumer demand. Of course, prohibition also played a
role in the decline of choice which accerlerated the departure of small
producers from the market, while bigger players like A-B were able to
survive by selling malt extract and unfermented malt beverages.

So while we should all partake in the enjoyment of the reborn Classic
American Pilsner with many thanks to Jeff, we should continue to celebrate
all the other styles of beer that we as homebrewers have been enjoying
over the past couple of decades (including the poorly named CACA). 

By the way Jeff, still no baby... and you were right about my Classic
Canadian Cream Ale (CCCA - the acronym isnt so bad on this side of the
border) - due to the high OG, I seem to be getting some fusels and
probably should have diluted prior to fermentation rather than afterwards
as you suggested.

Cheers Darryl Newbury
 ... east of Yonge Street, Toronto, Ontario



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:11:48 -0400
From: Nathan Matta <whatsa at MIT.EDU>
Subject: Beer along I-80...

Hey gang.  I'm going to be driving a rental truck west from
Massachusetts to Cedar Rapids, IA.  I expect to be on I-80
for most of the trip.  Any tips on brewpubs or commercial
beer worth picking up and trying out?  I'm already planning
on trying Millstream (since I have ties to the head brewer)
and Alpha King.  Anything else worth watching for along the
way?

Nathan
========================================
Nathan Matta
Fuzzy Beer Home Brewery
Randolph, MA, USA



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:45:19 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: Efficiency with partial Mashing

Gregg,

The reason you got virtually nothing was your water to grain ratio. You
diluted the scarce available enzymes in too much water. The  water to
grain ratio is usually stated in Quarts to Lbs. Most of us use between
1:1 and 2:1, yours was better than 16:1. Perhaps you read 2:1 and
thought someone meant gal's intead of quarts?

To get to your efficiency question. You got 100% from your liquid Malt
extract, 82% from your crystal and 0% from the wheat and carapils.
Most-likely. At least that is my guess from using Brewers workshop to
guestimate the numbers. For partial mashing i think I would use 66% as
my target. I get 81% on my all-grain system. Brewers Workshop clocked
your overall performance at 40%. Pitifull, yes, but not an entire waste
of time.

For steeping I use the three pot and a strainer system. Ill rewrite your
recipe into my directions as an example.

To your recipe I would add a .25 lb of 6-row malt to provide some more
enzymatic power. Wheat Malt has barely enough to converted its self.
CaraPils is also low, and crystal has none, but doesn't need it either
(Chocolate, Black and Roasted Barley are the other 3 that don't need
mashing).
0. Take the lid off your kit, put the lid, the directions and the yeast
directly into the garbage. The only kit yeast I would ever dream of
using is Coopers. And even then only if I was making australian ale.
0.5 Reread these directions start to finish.
1. Turn you oven on to its minimal setting usually 120 or 150. If its
higher don't worry. Just turn it off once it gets to temp.
2. The recipe now brings you up to 2 lbs of grains and in a 6qt pot I
would add 2.4 qts of water and bring it to 160F. (1.2:1 ratio) Put your
crushed grains in a grain bag and add them to the water. Hopefully you
hit 150F. +-5F is fine. Put the lid on and put it in the oven. Turn the
oven OFF. Let it mash for 45min.
3. Next take the label off and pierce the lid of your extract and take
the lid HALF-way off. Bend the lid up a bit and put the can in the oven
also.
4.  Meanwhile fill your big pot with water and bring to a boil or close
to it. If you have an electric stove you have to take the big pot off
the burner else when you add you extract you will risk scorching the
heavy extract on the bottom of the pot. If you have a gas stove or
burner just turn off the heat.
5.  Take your third pot. A 2qt sauce pan works great. Dip it into your
hot water and ladel out a full pot then set it aside.
6.  Get your strainer or collander out and put it over your big pot.
7. Use hot pads to remove your Mash Pot from the oven. Use tongs to pull
the mash bag out of the mash liquior. Let it drip for a minute till is
about done.
7.5 Then gently dunk it in the big pot once or twice. (This is cheating,
but dunk sparging does work. If you use it make sure your water is not
over 170F, and skip steps 8, 9, and 10)
8. Next put the colander underneath the grain bag and let it drip into
the big pot.
9. Now examine what is in the pot that had the mash bag in it. If it is
clear and has no particles floating about then just dump it into the
pot. If not (more than likely) gently pour it over your grains through
your colander and into the big pot. The grain bag will filter out the
excess particals just the same way the mash does for all-grain folks.
10. Now you can gently pour the 2qts of hot water that was in that sauce
pan over the grains to "Sparge" them. Note your Sparge ratio is also
about 1:1 or a little less just like the rest of the brewing world. Aim
for a slow continuous pour that covers the bag in a circular motion and
takes about 2 min to completly empty the 2 qt pot. This would be called
"Fly Sparging". If your arm is getting to sore or it you think you are
risking scalding yourself, then you could empty a quart at a time with a
1 min rest inbetween. This would be called "Batch Sparging."
11. After its done dripping you can place the grain bag in the garbage,
and rinse the colander off in the sink.
12. Now using oven mits or pot holders, carefully grab the hot can of
extract from the oven. Don't spill it. Pour it into you big pot and
rinse the can with hot water.  With a long handled spoon stir like the
dickens, untill the bottom of the pot feels clean.  You can now return
the big pot to the burner and continue heating until it boils.
13. Be watchfull of the boiling point, Boil overs are very common and
very messy. When you reach boiling turn down the heat approximately 30%.
You want to keep as big a boil as you feel you can control. Boil 10 min
before adding any hops.
14. Add your bittering hops with 60 min left to boil. Watch carefully as
this has been known to cause boil-overs.
15. Add you Flavor hops with 20 left to boil (if you have a chiller now
is a good to add it)
16. Add your Aroma hops with 2 min left to boil.
17. at 0 Min left of boil kill the heat and cover the pot and chill as
fast as possible to 65-70F.
18. Transfer to your Sanitized fermenting vessel splashing as much as is
sanitarily possible. Sanitation is CRITICAL from this point till
consumption.  Sanitation, Sanitation, Sanitation. I can't stress it
enough
19. Pitch your agressing fermenting starter. Shake, or otherwise
oxygenate your wort. If using dry yeast properly rehydrate three 5g
packets for an ale, 5 or 6 for the mythical dry lager yeast. Yes, thats
alot of yeast. According to my calculations of the viable yeast after
rehydration, and the optimal pitching rate in viable cells/ml I came out
with 14 g of dry Danstar yeast for 5 gal of average wort. Thats a half
of an ounce. Do you think thats too much? NOT!  Wheeler and Prost call
for up to 3 oz of dry yeast in their book Brewing Real Ale at Home! Now
that, I call too much!

These are my well refined basic proceedures for making partial mash
beers at home. Other people do alot of other things, this is what works
for me. I won my first awards with partial mash beers made just this
way. Even though I've been an all-grain brewer for five years now, I
still go back to these basic principles when teaching new brewers how to
brew.

Phil WIlcox



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:35:22 -0400
From: "Dennis Collins" <dcollins at drain-all.com>
Subject: Grain Mills

Not to stir up the great grain mill debate, but has anyone used or seen the
roller mills made by CrankandStein?  (www.crankandstein.com)  They offer
several models and look very well built, but they require some fabrication
on the hopper and mounting, but since I was planning to motorize my mill
anyway, that might not be a big deal.  I was looking at their adjustable
model which uses an offset mounting for the non driven roller that is held
in place by a set screw.  Looks like you would need a feeler gage and some
patience to adjust it.  If anyone has used this and could give an opinion on
the effort required for adjustment and the overall quality of the mill I
would appreciate it.

Dennis Collins
Knoxville, TN



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 16:56:55 -0400
From: Phil Wilcox <pjwilcox at cmsenergy.com>
Subject: A pain in my glass!!!

Ok,

I have some really special Mead for a special event. The annual event
takes place at a shoreside resort. As a cool design element I thought it
would be cool to make the 6 oz coke bottles I plan to bottle in, look
like beach glass. a.k.a. Frosted glass. What is the best way to do 50 or
so of these???

A. Sandblaster
B. Etch them with acid

I assume I would cap them full of water to protect the lip with either
method.
I have never used either method and would love to know how to use these
methods, how long it would take, approximately how  much $$ and the
pro's and con's for each of them.

Any guesses anyone?
Anyone in Michigan have a sandblaster I can borrow?

Phil Wilcox
Jackson, MI



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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:08:31 +0200
From: "Dr. Pivo" <dp at pivo.w.se>
Subject: hydrogen peroxide, or "Bleaching Your Beer"

This does not fall under the category of an "experiment".

This does not even rate qualifying as a 'spurment..

I think this might be called "casual observation" when you happen to
have  had a bit of "casual influence" on the outcome.

There has been a bit of discussion of late (and previously) about the
use of hydrogen peroxide as a source of yeast oxygen.

"Theoretically", this does not strike me as a good thing to do.

"Hypothetically" it might even turn out bad.

"Practically"  I haven't got a clue.

As an attempt at setting up a roadblock for yet another endless
accumulation of speculative and oft' extremely bitter comments, I
thought  I would "try something".... being both a frequent and large
quantity brewer of beer, and quite a large fan of H2O2 as a sanitising
agent.

I posted some "round numbers" that my peanut sized brain could
accommodate (Hey!  I have on occasion had a different point of view than

"God", which I 'spose makes me irretrievably "knuckle dragging").

After awakening and slapping the other side of my face, I thought: "WAIT

A MINUTE! I am really  getting only "one" oxygen radical per molecule,
and that's only half of what the yeast are going to need (O2, or a
proper "oxygen" molecule.),  I bumped my numbers up a bit.

Since  Brian Lundeen , was the only one who replied to see if I was
thinking totally wrong,
I decided that you had all either gone to sleep, or were planning the
next vindictive posting, or maybe I was about right.

I think there are 4 points of interest in this question.

1) does this generate oxygen and "help" the yeast?

2) does a free flying "free radical" have an inhibitory (toxic) effect
on the yeast?

3) what effect does this have on final flavour.... perhaps not just
providing yeast food, but oxidising taste components that you don't want

having done (instant "old barrel"?)

4) is this something we should be drinking?

My final "blend" was 0.5 ml of 35 percent of the good hair dye, diluted
to 5 ml ("I think we are at about at three and a half percent now" He
said, as he dragged his knuckles)..

I put an extremely long and thin needle on the syringe, and stuck the
needle as deep as possible into the brew, and injected slowly as I moved

the syringe around the whole circumference of the fermenter, which was
about 30 litre in volume, and I won't mention the H:L,  W:H, or H:C
ratio.... I will however mention that Cap'n Salty when he says:


> And remember -- fermentor geometry is completely irrelevant to the
> production of good beer. Fermentor COLOR, on the other hand, is
> critical.


 ...is absolutely correct, and that is why ALL of my fermenters are
"plaid".


I got "less" foaming than I had expected.

As I mentioned earlier, I had chosen a beer, with it's fermenting twin
beside it, which was just coming on to "white krauzen"..... you know...
when the top gets a very thin foam of white that "doesn't quite" reach
the outer edge of the fermenter.

I picked this stage because having played with "dropping" as a means of
reoxygenating, I've found this is sort of the last point where you
"guarantee" that you can "rush a ferment on" without creating oxidised
flavours.

After 24 hours, the beer was (visibly) at the same stage (stalled),
while it's twin sister was starting to make "meringue". After 48, it had

picked up again.

On questions "1" and "2", it sure looks like the yeast took a waxing.

When it comes to "3" and "4".... I will be tasting this later, but
recommend that     YOU DON'T DO THIS!

Why should I get to taste this and you not?

Easy. Because I use a lot of hydrogen peroxide.

If someone get's a steering wheel in the gut and their large intestine
bursts open, or a little kid has a burst appendix.... in short, anytime
the "poopy" side of the gut get's exposed to the sterile room it should
be living in.... once the pieces are back together I am in favour of
flushing everything out with a dilute solution of H2O2.

Indeed! Every carbuncle, fistula, infected atherome.... in short
anything
I open up where the smell reminds me of "some" midwesterner's sauerkraut

cultures...  I shout for the peroxide (3 percent) dilute it with saline
(probably to about 1/2 percent... I don't measure).... and squirt it
in.  After the big pink bubbles foam out for a while, I flush the thing
out with saline.

Now, I THINK that this is non-toxic. I check wounds later and see nice
granulation tissue (healing stuff).

But I don't really know.

There are concerns that the greatest damage to a "strangulated bowel",
for example, is not just the lack of oxygen causing tissue death, but
the over reaction of the immune system, and cells releasing (among other

things) free radicals.

I feel pretty comfortable that beer has been around humankind so long
that it is "pretty safe" stuff, and even might be beneficial.  Start
oxidising the Holy Schmoley out of it, and I wouldn't feel so safe
guaranteeing that.

As to anecdotal claims that ingesting peroxide and a bunch of
antioxidant vitamins are healthy, it all sounds a bit like starting
small fires and then stomping them out, and doesn't sound like a good
"game plan" to me.

If I, on the other hand, have been unwittingly generating future
problems years down the road for people that I've thought I was doing a
"good job" for.......

 ..... well shouldn't it be justified..... NAY, shouldn't I almost be
OBLIGED to drink a bit of "peroxide products".

But, what the heck. My behaviour has always been pretty "free" and my
thinking, if not my whole essence is considered by most to be
"radical"........ maybe I'm immune.

Dr. Pivo




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Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:07:13 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: CAP and cream ale recipes: part 1

Brewers

Several HBDers have asked for recipes for CAP and cream ale.  Below 
is a slightly revised recipe from my Sept/Oct, 2000 Zymurgy article. 
I corrected the amount of water for the cereal mash and changed it to 
reflect several other changes.  I did not mash in at 104F (40C) for 
my brews this year, but rather at the first rest of 146F (53C).  It 
really seems to work just about as well.  I add the cereal mash after 
a 30 minute rest to boost to the 158F (70C) rest (with heat or 
boiling water if necessary).  This also reflects my slightly higher 
FWHing.

These mash rest times are very arbitrary.  Longer won't hurt to 
accommodate the schedule.

If you can't get 6-row, 2-row works just as well, and some brewers 
prefer it.  Likewise, if you prefer simplicity, substitute flaked 
corn (maize) or rice for the cornmeal or rice and skip the cereal 
mash and even the step mash.  Mashing at no higher than 149 F (65 C) 
will give a crisp beer, higher mash temperatures will give a less 
attenuated beer.

Cluster hops are probably what the vast majority of breweries used 
100 years ago, and were still the predominate hops until the last few 
decades.  They still are used widely.  If you prefer for taste or 
availability reasons, you can use all noble hops or US equivalent 
(Crystal is wonderful), or use any neutral hops for bittering.  Do 
not use the distinct modern American hops such as Cascade, Columbus 
or Centennial.  This are not appropriate, IMHO.

If something doesn't make sense, let me know.  I may have made 
mistakes in my revisions or my temperature conversions.

This is a great summertime beer.  I hope this will inspire more 
brewers to brew it.  Please report your results if you do.

Jeff

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-

5 finished beer gallons at 1.051

7.25 lbs. six-row malt
2 lbs. coarse corn meal*

*Or grits, polenta or coarsely ground rice, or combination of rice and corn

First Wort Hops: 4-5 HBU Saaz or other noble hops
Bittering hops: (60 minutes) 5.3 HBU whole Cluster (4.8 HBU for pellets)
Flavor hops: (15 minutes) 1.5 HBU whole noble hops or Styrian 
Goldings (1.2 HBU for pellets) ten minutes before strike.

Yeast:  Any clean lager yeast

Water: low alkalinity, low sulfate water

See part 2 TRADITIONAL AMERICAN "DOUBLE MASH" for additional details.

Schedule for American Double Mash for cornmeal or rice (grits and 
polenta must be boiled longer):

Time 00:	In a kitchen pot, mash in corn or rice and 10 ounces 
of malt with ~3 quarts of water  (~4 for rice) to hit 153F (67C), 
rest in preheated oven 20 minutes.
Time 15:	Mash in main mash 146F (63C)
Time 20:	Bring cereal mash to boil, stirring
Time 30:	Cereal mash boiling, stir frequently
Time 65:	Add cereal mash to main mash yield, adjust 
temperature as needed to 158F
Time 95:	Ramp to 170F (76C) mashout, then sparge and lauter

As soon as kettle bottom is covered add first wort hops and maintain 
wort temperature at approximately 170F (76C) during lautering. 
Collect enough wort to yield 5.25 gallons finished wort.

Boil uncovered at least 60 minutes, longer to reduce DMS if necessary.

Chill to 48F (9C), aerate or oxygenate well, pitch yeast from large starter.

Ferment at 48F (9C) until fermentation nearly stops, about 10 to 14 
days, rack to secondary and reduce temperature 4F (2C) per day to 32F 
(0C).  Lager six to seven weeks.
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


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