---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


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Contents:
  pH testing and reporting (Troy)
  Breiss bavarian wheat extract ("Peter Fantasia")
  re: conversion ("Houseman, David L")
  RE: Ya know? You gotta love 'em... (Tim  Burkhart)
  Calorie counters (Dave Burley)
  more info re: keg cooler at Home Depot (Ed Jones)
  Ya know? Ya gotta love 'em... ("Jim Bermingham")
  Re: Measuring Acid Additions (Martin_Brungard)
  Calories ("Dr. John")
  Re: Ya know? Ya gotta love 'em... ("Pannicke, Glen A.")
  mash pH vs. acidity ("mike karnowski")
  Re: Growing hops / Japanese Beetles (David Burki)
  Oxygenating/timing (RiedelD)
  Light & Dark Brown Sugar Stats (Alexander King)
  (OT) World Homebrew Contest & Boston Beer Co. ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Advanced Party Pig Questions ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Beer and Sweat 2001 ("Eric Tepe")
  Travelling with kegs (Mike.Szwaya)
  Caramel flavors (Kim Thomson)


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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 23:36:33 -0700
From: Troy <thager at jps.net>
Subject: pH testing and reporting

I second Wayne's statement that:

" Bottom line, you need to test your pH level at different stages  of every
beer brewing session.  Paper test strips can be used but a calibrated pH
meter will produce much more accurate results.  Having said all of this keep
in mind you can  brew very good beer without ever knowing anything about
your water/mash/wort pH levels.   But if you are trying to produce
consistently good quality beer pH is important."

I have just started to really understand the role that pH has in the various
steps of the brewing process and I am wondering why monitoring your pH as a
homebrewer is somewhat downplayed in the literature. From my recent
research, one can manipulate the fermentables-to-unfermentables ratio in
your wort by manipulating the pH. A lower pH will favor the betas and will
produce a more fermentable wort and higher for the alphas. The exact optimum
levels are clearly up for debate, but the general rule stands. Miller states
that a high mash pH (5.7) favors AA and a less fermentable wort and
conversly a low mash pH (5.3-5.4) favor  a more fermentable wort. On the
other hand, he also states: "BA works best at a low pH (around 5.0). But in
the mash kettle, beta depends on alpha amylase. In practice trials, running
the mash at a pH of 5.0 gives a less fermentable wort than using a somewhat
higher value." This has *not* been my experience with my infusion mashes of
1hr or so.

Jim Bush in his BT article in Sept. '97 states that BA's optimal range is
5.4-5.5 and AA is at 5.6-5.8.

AJ in BT Nov/Dec '96 states ranges for BA at 5.1-5.3 and AA at 5.3-5.7.

So it is clearly the case that changing the pH will favor one or the other.
But, it seems in my readings, manipulation of the  sacc. temps. (lower for
the betas and more fementables and higher for the alphas and more dextrins)
is mostly what is focused on in the hb literature- I feel that pH is equally
important to monitor.

In my case, I have tried manipulating the temps of my mashes from 150-160F
and *always* have my beers ferment like mad and drop into the 1006-1010
range- producing very alcoholic beers. So, in my latest attempt to
understand what is going on in my mash tun, I have been looking into this pH
thing and have reallized that I have very acidic water (you have problably
read my posts about my chalk and lime experiements) and have found that at
mash temps my pH values are at around 5.0. I am therefore giving those betas
a big head start to whittle all those long chains into lots of fermentables.
So, it seems that in my experience, pH is actually more important a variable
to monitor than temperature since with my water, even a mash of 159F still
produces a very fermentable wort.

My second point has been hashed over many times here - and that is the
absolute necessity of stating what TEMPERATURE your pH values are taken.
This drives me absolutley crazy and creates so much confusion, especially I
feel with the less experience brewers out there.

The bottom line:

Optimum pH Range at Mash Temp (150F): 5.3-5.6
Optimum pH Range at Room Temp (68F): 5.5-5.9
(some say a difference of 0.2 some say 0.3)

and, of course,

Optimum pH Range (*at mash temps*) for alpha amylase and a less fermentable
wort: somewhere in the 5.5-5.8 range
Optimum pH Range (*at mash temps*) for beta amylase and a more fermentable
wort: somewhere in the 5.1-5.4 range

 -Troy




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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:09:42 -0400
From: "Peter Fantasia" <fantasiapeter at hotmail.com>
Subject: Breiss bavarian wheat extract

Tim asked about 'caramel flavor' in his wheat beer. I have used this extract
in years past. If you want a true to style wheat beer leave out the
caravienne. I don't know if your using the dry extract but forget about the
liquids. All too dark.
    Pitch your chosen yeast at 65f and hold it at 70 or below and good luck.

Pete sippin a Wheat
in the luvly pines of S. Jersey


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:32:12 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: re: conversion

Steve says: "To put that in perspective you're probably in much better shape
wrt to
enzyme complement at pH 5 .0 or pH 6.0 than you are when brewing a 50% wheat
beer (with only half the enzymes)."

I presume you mean unmalted wheat beer (Wit for example) since malted wheat
has plenty of enzymes for conversion itself; correct?

Dave Houseman


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:22:26 -0500 
From: Tim Burkhart <tburkhart at dridesign.com>
Subject: RE: Ya know? You gotta love 'em...

>>What do YOU have? Cheer 'em on!

Boulevard Brewing Co. (One for the home team, Yay!)
Pony Express Brewing Co. (Two for the home team, Yay!)
New Belgium Brewing Co. (One for the mountain states, Yay!)
Sam Adams (One for the atlantic states,Yay!)

Damn, I'm missing the pacific states... guess I'll be visiting the liquor
store tonight for some Rogue Ales (Yay!)

Tim Burkhart
Kansas City



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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:47:29 -0400
From: Dave Burley <Dave_Burley at compuserve.com>
Subject: Calorie counters

Brewsters:

Randy Ricchi ponders how two beers can have the same starting OG and
different FG and end up with a different calorie content.  
Randy you forgot that the different FGs mean there is more unfermented
stuff in the higher FG one and therefore more calories in the form of
dextrins and unfermented sugars.  The difference in the two is the amount
of CO2 that went up the stack and the energy the yeast absorbed during
their growth cycle before they left the scene as a precipitate.  CO2
represents about half of the carbon in the fermented sugars and therefore
represents substantial material and energy loss from the fermenter.

If you're going to use thermodynamics as a part of your reasoning, be
careful how you define your system. If you include the CO2, water vapor
evaporation, yeast and other stuff that left the scene you will find the
total energy content of both systems with the same OG is the same.
- --------------------------------------------------
Dextrins being long chain sugars should have the same approximate calorie
content per gram as glucose when metabolized.
- --------------------------------------------------

Keep on Brewin'

Dave Burley


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 07:59:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ed Jones <ejones at sdl.psych.wright.edu>
Subject: more info re: keg cooler at Home Depot

I returned to Home Depot after my last post to order the keg cooler my
local store was advertizing for $399. This time I talked with the
department manager. It turns out he and some of the other local managers
decided they could sell the Danby keg cooler for a nice profit. The young
lady that had told me she could order the keg coolers was mistaken. The
local stores quit selling the coolers and marked them way down to move
them quickly because a VP of the Home Depot chain decided it was against
their "moral code of ethics" to sell a draft beer system. So, the Home
Depot stores in central ohio will not be selling these anymore. It was my
mistaken assumption that these were offered at all Home Depot stores and
that is not true. They were purchased for our local stores. 
That said, it may still be possible for the department manager for
appliances to order them from his/her wholesale catalogs. It may be worth
asking them. 

On a positive note, I got the last one they had for $399!

Sorry for the confusion and for getting anyone's hopes up :-(

- -- 
Ed Jones

"When I was sufficiently recovered to be permitted to take nourishment,
I felt the most extraordinary desire for a glass of Guinness...I am 
confident that it contributed more than anything else to my recovery."
  - written by a wounded officer after Battle of Waterloo, 1815



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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:05:04 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
From: "Jim Bermingham" <bermingham at antennaproducts.com>
Subject: Ya know? Ya gotta love 'em...

Pat wanted us to cheer on our favorite American Commerical Breweries.  Being
a fan of New Belgium Brewery I have the following in my "Beer Box" for the
holidays:  Fat Tire, Blue Paddle, Trippel & Saison.  Being from Texas I have
Shiner Bock.

Jim Bermingham
Millsap, TX


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 09:19:48 -0400
From: Martin_Brungard at urscorp.com
Subject:  Re: Measuring Acid Additions

Ant Hayes asked about measuring acid additions and Jeff Renner gave a good
response in recommending a syringe.

I suggest that another measuring device is more available and durable...use
a graduated medicine dropper.  I find this item in any US drugstore, many
times around the infant supplies.  I bought a 2-pack of polyethylene
medicine droppers for several dollars and have used them for a year or two
now.  I'm pretty sure these will last me for at least a few more years.
The droppers I use, have graduation markings in CC's and fractional
teaspoon measures, up to 1 tsp total.

The other thing I recommend is to perform a titration test on your local
brewing water.  Acidify a known quantity of water stepwise by adding drops
of acid and measuring the resulting pH.  Plot the number of drops per liter
(or gallon) of water versus the resulting pH.  I have found this
relationship very helpful in deciphering how much acid I should be adding
to my sparge water.  This also gives you an idea of how much acid to add to
the mash tun, but the grain bill also influences that result, so be
careful.  Another thing to do is to check how many drops per CC (or tsp)
you get from your dropper.  That makes it easy to perform large calculated
additions instead of adding acid drop by drop.

Martin Brungard
Tallahassee, FL




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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:27:38 -0500
From: "Dr. John" <drjohn17 at home.com>
Subject: Calories

Randy Ricchi <rricchi at ccisd.k12.mi.us> writes....

<RR> I remember seeing a calorie chart in Zymurgy quite awhile back. One
thing I noticed was that two beers with the same starting gravity but
different ending gravities would end up with different calorie contents.

<RR> This is puzzling to me. Since energy can be neither created nor
destroyed, and since the original gravity is the same for both beers (same
potential energy), you would (or at least I would) think that they would
have the same calorie content, regardless of ending gravity. A lower final
gravity would mean more calories from alcohol and less from unfermented
sugars & dextrins, and vice-versa. Can anyone explain why this is not the
case?



I'll take a stab at it. Fermentation produces heat and therefore burns
calories. So the beer with the lower final gravity had a lower calorie
content, right? I guess the yeast are burning a few calories when they are
converting those sugars.



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Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 10:33:09 -0400
From: "Pannicke, Glen A." <glen_pannicke at merck.com>
Subject: Re: Ya know? Ya gotta love 'em...

Pat wrote:

>Let's count 'em off, and cheer them on! Buying their beer is
>another means of supporting those who support you, too (though
>sorta indirectly...)!
>
>At this moment, in my beer fridge, I have...

>What do YOU have? Cheer 'em on!

A six pack of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale (emergency beer - required)
A few cans of Old Milwaukee (for Dad and carboy rinsing)

Bad homebrewer?!?  
Go sit in the corner?!?

I'm pretty much a die-hard homebrewer.  I've got a keg of Stout, keg of
American Pale Ale, keg of Weizen, 2 cases of barleywine (aging) and 2 cases
of kriek (aging).  I've got enough beer, right?  What do I need commercial
beer for?  Then I thought about something Pat didn't come right out and say.
If it weren't for commercial breweries like Guinness, Sierra Nevada,
Hacker-Pschorr, Sam Adams and Lindemanns, what would have been the
motivation behind what is currenlty in my fridge and cellar?

Guess it's time for a trip to the store.
Tomorrow I can hang my Colonial flag and sit on the porch while watching the
parade and soaking in some American beer style research!

Carpe cerevisiae!

Glen A. Pannicke

glen at pannicke.net          http://www.pannicke.net
75CE 0DED 59E1 55AB 830F  214D 17D7 192D 8384 00DD
"I have made this letter longer than usual,
because I lack the time to make it short." - Blaise Pascal



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Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 09:39:47 -0500
From: "mike karnowski" <djpotpie at hotmail.com>
Subject: mash pH vs. acidity

Is the pH of the mash the same as the acidity of the mash? the reason I
ask is I have screwed up 2 different 10 gallon batches of Berliner
weiss in the last 2 days. Here's the low down:

1st batch: 6 lbs. German Suaermalt and 6 lbs. German Wheat
mash:132 (20 min) 145 (20 min) 158 (20 min). The pH of my mash was 5.1
(my
tap water is 9.7 !) but the mash tasted very sour. The mash gummed up
horribly and would not convert. I blamed it on not doing a beta glucan
rest (at least the gummy part of the problem) so the next day I tried
again:

2nd batch: 4 lbs. Sauermalt, 4 lbs German Wheat and 4 lbs. Domestic
2-row (hoping the extra enzymes would help) mash pH 5.6: 104 (20 min)
122 (20
min) 145 (20 min) 156 (2 hours !)  this time the mash didn't gel up as
much but never did convert completely. I am assuming that the acidity
of the mash is inhibiting enzyme activity even though the pH is perfect.
Any input?

I do know that a true Berliner Weiss is soured by lacto bacteria but I
was trying to make it easy (HA!).  I did get 6 gallons of wort (after
adding a pound of wheat dry malt) of O.G. 1.030 but it still showed
positive starch post boil. Does starch give a gravity reading? I ask
because the beer seems to have finished fermenting at F.G. 1.015.  Thanks in
advance for any wisdom.

   Mike "Elvis" Karnowski    New Orleans LA   djpotpie at yahoo.com


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 08:41:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Burki <soccer_ref8 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Growing hops / Japanese Beetles

Anyone ever try preying mantis as an insect control
method? Do a web search to locate a mail order
supplier.

db



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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 13:57:01 -0400 
From: RiedelD at pac.dfo-mpo.gc.ca
Subject: Oxygenating/timing

A quick data point to pass on:

I made a generic batch of wheat ale on Sunday in which I oxygenated
at about 6 hrs after pitching.  (Recall recent discussions of when is the 
optimal time to add O2)  This ferment appears to be the most healthy
of any beer I have ever made.  The rate (as judged be the airlock activity)
was nearly peaking by about 6 hrs after the O2 addition.

So, FWIW, seems like a little delay in oxygenation may be helpful.  Of
course I haven't tasted the results yet...

cheers,
Dave Riedel
Victoria, Can.


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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 12:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alexander King <ralexanderking at yahoo.com>
Subject: Light & Dark Brown Sugar Stats

I was wondering if anyone out there has the stats for
dark and light 
brown sugar. I use ProMash software and would like to
have some 
meaningful info (Potential SG and SRM) for these
ingredients. I 
appreciate any 
info you all can provide.

Cheers!





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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:49:14 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: (OT) World Homebrew Contest & Boston Beer Co.

Hi all:

I was going through some older issues of Brew Your Own (circa `96), and
came across an advertisement for Longshot Hazelnut Brown Ale, winner of
"The World Homebrew Contest" of 1996. This contest was apparently sponsored
by The Boston Beer Company, and produced and marketed a certain number of
cases
of the winner's homebrew, for distribution nation-wide.

Anyone know the details of this...? I'm just curious how long it lasted,
and when/why Boston Beer did away with the program.....

Cheers!

Todd S. Bissell




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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 15:52:21 -0700
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: Advanced Party Pig Questions


I know this has to be "Dead Horse, Old Hat" territory, but I really would
like to know that the final consensus on the Party Pig system from Quoin
(sp?). From my searches of the HBD.org archives, here's basically what I've
found so far:

	Pros: Simple, easy to store 2.5 gallons, easy to carry, small enough for
any fridge, works as advertised, a viable solution for folks who want to
keg, but don't have the room/means for a Corny setup, etc.

	Cons: The inflation bag and hand-pump can be tricky/annoying/PITA to use,
same goes for the gasket mechanism, 2-4$ per inflation bag not
cost-efficient, unable to use the dishwasher to sanitize, etc.

Having said all that, I am still leaning towards purchasing one, for no
other reason than my Milds and Bitters will never taste truly authentic
coming out of a 22-oz bottle (IMHO). Besides, who the heck enjoys bottling,
anyway....? So, to save bandwidth, I'll get straight to the point, with two
"advanced" Party Pig questions.

(1): Anybody try out the Pig Snout, from www.steinfillers.com...? It does
away with the cheap looking hand-pump and inflation pouch, and allows a
standard ball lock CO2 connection. Good/bad experience, or just a PITA for
"only" 2.5 gallons....?

And (2): Anybody dry-hop in a Party Pig...? Good/bad results...?

Like I said, I know this thread has been hashed out *many* times before, but
need to get a feel for what the current public opinion of these things are
before making any decisions. Thanks!

Cheer!

Todd S. Bissell



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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 19:52:02 -0400
From: "Eric Tepe" <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: Beer and Sweat 2001

The bitters are coming! The bitters are coming!!

Actually, I believe it was the British if I remember my history correctly.
There will be more than bitters, there will be Pale Ales, Stouts, Belgians
and beers aplenty at Beer and Sweat 2001- The nations original keg only
homebrew competition.  The competition date is August 18th and it is rapidly
approaching. All kegs can be entered (no 2-liters will be accepted this
year) and it is cheap, only $5 for the first entry and $3 for each
additional entry. This is an AHA/ BJCP competition and last year we had
almost 100 kegs of homebrew and are expecting more this year. Please check
out our web site at www.hbd.org\bloat. You can also register your beers and
to be a judge online as well. The event is being held at the Ramada Inn in
Florence, KY and rooms can be had for $65. If you are going to sample some
beers- I would stay as Ky has a 0.08 DUI level and $65 is a lot less than
the lawyer, fines and the 48hrs in jail should you get a DUI.  Taxies or
designated drivers are always an option. This is one of the best regional
homebrew events in the Midwest and is always a great time. If you have any
questions just e-mail me at erictepe at fuse.net.
See you there!!
Eric Tepe
Beer and Sweat Organizer




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Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2001 16:58:48 -0700 
From: Mike.Szwaya at co.clark.wa.us
Subject: Travelling with kegs


Happy 4th everyone.

I've got a question on travelling with kegs.  Has anyone had any experience
with airplane travel with kegs?  Not so much corny kegs but 1/4 or 1/2 bbl
sankey ones.  I'm wondering how breweries that go to festivals, etc. get
their kegs there.

I guess there would be issues with weight, like an additional weight
surcharge.   And then there's the whole pressurized vessel issue.  Would
there be any legal, transporting-alcohol problems with going from, say,
Oregon to Maine?

Didn't see much discussion on this in the archives so I thought I'd just
ask.

Thanks.

Mike Szwaya
Portland, OR
Email: Mike.Szwaya at co.clark.wa.us

"We have found out...that we cannot trust some people who are
nonconformists.
We will make conformists out of them in a hurry...The organization cannot
trust
the individual; the individual must trust the organization" - Ray Kroc



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Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 22:23:35 -0500
From: Kim Thomson <alabrew at mindspring.com>
Subject: Caramel flavors

Tim Burkhart asks about "caramel" flavors and
dark color to his wheat beer and for other thoughts?

I wouldn't expect 4 oz. of caravienna to give overpowering caramel
flavors. We encourage the "reverse method" for extract beers - steep the
grains, boil the hops and then add the extract at the last 10 min. of
the boil rather than boiling it for 45 - 60 min. Boiling the extract for
long periods of time darken and carmelize it (though not as much when
you do a full wort boil) this method has greatly improved extract beers
and the extract brews are now beating all-grain beers in the local club
contests (much to the distain of the all-grainers ;-} ).

- --
Kim and Sun Ae Thomson
ALABREW Homebrewing Supplies
8916 A Parkway East
Birmingham, AL 35206
(205) 833-1716
http://www.mindspring.com/~alabrew
mailto:alabrew at mindspring.com
Beer and Wine Making Ingredients and Supplies



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