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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Re: Software Piracy (Christopher Farley)
  Watney's Cream Stout ("Greenly, Jeff")
  re: Keg Back Pressure ("Stephen Alexander")
  Nyoo 'strayan (TOLLEY Matthew)
  Copper toxicity (Tony Barnsley)
  aeration (leavitdg)
  Live organisms in boiled wort? (Dan Temple)
  homebrew+australia ("Joseph Marsh")
  Light flavared ale ("Tal McMahon")
  Re: Software Piracy (Dan McFeeley)
  Re: Old Beer Recipes (Dan McFeeley)
  Re: Old Beer Recipes/Sip Through Time ("B.R. Rolya")
  Pittsburgh brew pubs ("Micah Millspaw")
  re: Old Beer Recipes (Fritz Eubanks)
  Perfect Brew day /Fermentarium (Brent Dowell)
  Re: Software Piracy ("Doug Hurst")
  RE:keg foams no longer ("Czerpak, Pete")
  HPLC day dreams (Stephen.F.Higdon)
  Plumbing for a three-tier RIMS ("christopher mika")


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 00:34:49 -0500
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Software Piracy

Pete Babcock wrote:

> Folks, I have it on good authority that Graham was not proposing
> to pirate anyones' software, nor, from what I can tell, has
> he. Just some typical Australian chest-thumping amongst
> their "mates". 

You know, homebrewers being what they are (thrifty and crafty), it's
surprising that an important, free, open-source, cross-plaform homebrew 
software project has not yet emerged. Or am I overlooking something?

Any interested programmers out there willing to contribute? I'd be
willing to donate a mailing list/web forum and a cvs repository at 
the very least... 

- -- 
Christopher Farley
www.northernbrewer.com


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 01:54:53 -0400 
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj at rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Watney's Cream Stout

Dear Friends,

Does anyone have a good recipe for a Watney's Cream Stout clone? I would
prefer an extract recipe, but can handle partial or all-grain...

Jeff


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 03:41:52 -0400
From: "Stephen Alexander" <steve-alexander at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: re: Keg Back Pressure

Eric Ahrendt" writes ...

>Dennis Collins wrote:
>
>>"This method does waste some CO2, but unless you have 10 PSI resistance in
>>your line, you will never be able to store the beer and serve it at the
same
>>pressure (unless you really like near flat beer).  Any other ideas out
>>there?"
>
>Has anybody used fluid pressure regulators (think paint systems) is their
>setup?

Doesn't work that way Eric.  You can reduce the flow by just cracking the
tap and regulating 'by hand'.  The problem either way is that the sudden
pressure change will cause nucleation and foaming.  Dennis C was on the
right track.

You can make a tap tubing system that drops from tank pressure to ambient
smoothly throughout the length of the tubing when pouring at some reasonable
rate.  The deal is this - when pouring at 2.5 fl.oz/sec using 1/4" ID tubing
you'll drop about 0.55psi/ft.  If you switch to 3/16" tubing you'll drop
about 1.7psi/ft. at the same flow rate.

To get from Dennis' 10psi head keg to a glass with a wide open tap (always
the way to pour beer) you need to drop all 10psi in the hose.  For a
standard 1/4" US Foxx tube you need almost 18ft of tubing.  To get the same
drop at the same flow rate from 3/16" tubing you'd need less than 6ft of
tubing - far more practical.

I've  replaced my keg tap hoses with ~7ft of 3/16" ID tubing (4.75mm ID for
the metrically inclined).   The smaller tubing and uniform pressure drop
really do reduce foaming - tho' they certainly don't eliminate it.  It's
also a PITA getting the smaller hose over the larger barb.

The detailed calcs and accompanying arguments appear in the July/Aug 1999
HBD.

I understand Ant's point.  I find that if you use temp/pressure tables to
achieve a spec carbonation in a keg, that you will eventually get the
carbonation desired.   But even after racking from a clean secondary, a lot
of 'stuff' appears to get re-suspended in the beer that makes it foam and
fob for the next week or so.  My guess is that both yeast and sedimented
protein are involved.  The good part is that once you past this point and
have a good tap tube attached it's clear sailing till the keg runs dry.

 -S




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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 17:22:35 +1000
From: TOLLEY Matthew <matthew.tolley at atsic.gov.au>
Subject: Nyoo 'strayan

From: acez at mindspring.com

>Well, I did it. I made it to Sydney (actually, Newtown) Australia from
>Riverside, California. 

Welcome, and g'day :)

>And I get here and mention homebrew and I get
>gagging responses. My god! Back home, homebrew is welcomed with 
>intrigue and respect - and connotated with quality and art. Here, 
>everyone I have spoke with thinks of a undrinkable, bathtub-fermented 
>concoction reserved for 'farell' old men. 

I think that's 'feral', as in rabbits :).  Alas, they're probably right.
'Kit and a kilo' brewing dominates the scene - a tin of pre-hopped extract
(nothing but the finest Pride of Ringwood, mind you) and a kilo of white
cane sugar.  Top it up with water from the garden hose, sprinkle your dried
yeast on top, ferment at 25oC in the back shed - byoody :).

The rest of us (200-odd at the moment) hang out on OzCBD.  Check out
http://oz.craftbrewer.org, and sign up for the list.  Special this month -
new members get a free copy of ProMash! ;)

Eastern Suburbs Brewery in Randwick (http://www.esb.net.au) seems to be the
shop of choice in Sydney - they should be able to get most (well, some) of
the stuff you're used to from the States.

For commercial brews, check out the James Squire range from the Malt Shovel
Brewery (also in Sydney) - they do a decent Amber Ale, Porter and Pilsner.
New arrival 'Little Creatures' is also well worth the look.  For Belgian
beer, have a look at Epoque (http://www.belgian-beer-cafe.com.au) on the
north shore.  Otherwise, don't drink the beer :).

Cheers!
 ...Matt...


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:59:23 +0100 
From: Tony Barnsley <tony.barnsley at blackpool.gov.uk>
Subject: Copper toxicity

Hi Oh great brewing collective,

We on the UK Homebrew list are having a bit of a discussion as to whether or
not having a copper immersion coil suspended in the primary fermenter as a
wort attemperator would be a good idea.

My personal take on it is to use stainless, this is from some experiments I
did some years ago at university where we showed that as little as 1ppm
copper caused reduced growth in plants. I know some copper is required (as a
co factor IIRC), but at what point does copper become toxic to yeast. Are we
likely to reach the toxic level just by suspending 20 feet of 3/8" copper
coil in fermenting wort?

- --
Wassail!
The Scurrilous Aleman (ICQ 46254361)
Schwarzbad Lager Brauerei, Blackpool, Lancs, UK

UK HOMEBREW - A Forum on Home Brewing in the UK
              Managed by home brewers for home brewers

To Subscribe send blank email to uk-homebrew-subscribe at smartgroups.com 
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as part of the Council's e-mail and internet policy.


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Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 06:36:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: leavitdg at plattsburgh.edu
Subject: aeration

If I am aerating with an aquarian pump...am I ok to assume that 2 minutes 
or so is ok foormal brew a normal brew (up to 1.045 sg) and that 3 or
4 minutes is best for a high gravity brew?
 ...Darrell



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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 05:57:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Temple <danatemple at yahoo.com>
Subject: Live organisms in boiled wort?

I just read (in a Danish homebrewing book from 1970)
the following:

Wort contains organisms that are not killed by
boiling, so unless you get the yeast going quick,
these can get the upper hand and give the beer a sour
taste.

Is this true? I have always assumed that the boiled
wort was as sterile as could be.

I also read in the book that: "Top fermenting yeast is
mostly used for English style ales. It is not possible
to achieve proper subtleties of flavour with this kind
of yeast". 

A most entertaining tome :-)

Dan





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Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 09:33:01 -0500
From: "Joseph Marsh" <josephmarsh62 at hotmail.com>
Subject: homebrew+australia

Maybe they just know Graham. 8^)



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Date: Mon,  6 Aug 2001 11:22:47 -0400
From: "Tal McMahon" <tal_mcmahon at beethoven.com>
Subject: Light flavared ale

Hello All,  I am fairly new to Homebrewing (only 4 batches)
 but I am happy enough with my results to share a batch with
 my Rugby team.  Now the question ....I am Looking for a light
 ale (I don't have the patience or time to make a lager) that
 will go down easily by the pints full....these guys really 
drink (did I mention Rugby team?)...I was considering a Kolsh 
but do not have a good recipe...also looking for any insight 
for a good light ale that will be palletable for non-
Homebrewing-American-watery lager type beer drinkers.   



Bassguy

Tal McMahon

Listen to the "World's Classical Radio Station" http://www.beethoven.com


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:32:15 -0500
From: Dan McFeeley <mcfeeley at keynet.net>
Subject: Re: Software Piracy

Pat Babcock wrote:

>Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...
>
>Folks, I have it on good authority that Graham was not proposing to pirate
>anyones' software, nor, from what I can tell, has he. Just some typical
>Australian chest-thumping amongst their "mates".  Let it lay...

No, what's going on isn't Australian chest-thumping.  Graham is proving 
himself to be a master at the fine USENET art of trolling discussion
groups.  Think of James "Kibo" Parry with an Australian accent, and
from North Queensland no less!  :-)  

For this round, Graham has successfully trolled both Oz Craftbrewing and HBD!

Cheers!

<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfeeley at keynet.net



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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:32:30 -0500
From: Dan McFeeley <mcfeeley at keynet.net>
Subject: Re: Old Beer Recipes

John Adsit wrote: 

>I would like to recommend a book on this very topic.  "A Sip Through
>Time:A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes, by Cindy Renfrow" (1994) is
>exactly what it says it is. . . . 
>I would love to give you publishing information, but the title page has only
>the Library of Congress number (TX 4-019-890), suggesting to me that it was
>self-published.  (I received it as a gift from a friend who loves nothing
>better than poking through unusual bookstores in search of unusual books.)


Cindy Renfrow's book is self-published but you can find ordering information
at her website http://www.thousandeggs.com.  It's an excellent book, something
that, IMHO, should be a standard reference for anyone interested in historical
information on old fermented beverages.  


<><><><><><><><><><>
<><><><><><><><>
Dan McFeeley
mcfeeley at keynet.net



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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 11:44:54 -0700
From: "B.R. Rolya" <br at triagemusic.com>
Subject: Re: Old Beer Recipes/Sip Through Time

John wrote:

>"A Sip Through Time:A Collection of Old Brewing Recipes, by Cindy Renfrow"

<snip>

>I would love to give you publishing information, but the title page has only
>the Library of Congress number (TX 4-019-890), suggesting to me that it was
>self-published.


It's currently available from Poison Pen Press, 718-853-8121,
www.poisonpenpress.com, devra at aol.com


 - BR Rolya
Malted Barley Appreciation Society
NYC
http://hbd.org/mbas/




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Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 10:49:21 -0500
From: "Micah Millspaw" <MMillspa at silganmfg.com>
Subject: Pittsburgh brew pubs

Thanks to all who recommended Pittsburgh
 breweries. I went to :

John Harvards Alehouse - good food, good IPA,
 cask conditioned Porter (conditioning was poor)

Church Brewworks - great place, very interesting
 building, very good food and beer. Best in town

Penn Brewing - interesting beers, really neat 
old brewery.

Valhalla - beer was mediocre, didn't like the
 building / decor.

Foundry - good beer, good food and service

In all I liked Pittsburghs beer selection.

Micah Millspaw - brewer at large



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Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 12:06:22 -0400
From: Fritz Eubanks <ceubanks at cdr.stanford.edu>
Subject: re: Old Beer Recipes

"A Sip Through Time" by Cindy Renfrow is available at:

http://www.thousandeggs.com/sip.html

Cindy also has a nice collection of beer and brewing history links at:

http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/links.html

Enjoy!

Fritz Eubanks



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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:24:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Brent Dowell <brent_dowell at yahoo.com>
Subject: Perfect Brew day /Fermentarium

I just had one of those perfect brewing weekends and
wanted to share (gloat) with everyone about it.  I've
been tapped by my company to provide some beer at the
company picnic later this month.  Not having time to
do a CAP, I decided to do my own interpretation of a
CACA (80% 2-row, 15% rice, 5% munich, 25 ibu, 1063
o.g., White Labs California Ale Yeast).

I had a couple month old tube of California Ale Yeast
from White labs that I hadn't used yet.  I decided to
make a starter with it using my new (to me) stir plate
I got from e-bay for 20 bucks.  That thing worked like
a charm.  I basically just ran it about half speed and
had no problems whatsoever.  I've never had a batch of
beer take off so well, especially considering that I
split a quart of starter into two 5 gallon carboys. 
Probably less than 6 hours of lag time.

I boiled up the rice to gelatinize it and mixed it
into the mash.  Hit my target temp of 152 bang on the
money.  No measuring, Just kind of winging it with the
quantities of malt and water, although I'm always
pretty careful with the water temp I use for mixing. 
While the mash was going, I set up my HERMS system
(old wort chiller in a kettle on a second burner). 
Got the pump going to test it and the wort ran
smoothly all the way up to full speed, even with that
high a percentage of gooey rice in the mash.

Meanwhile, I began putting together my "fermentarium",
based on Ken Schwarz's "Son of Fermentation chiller". 
Since I do 10 gallon batches, all I really needed to
do was extend the length of the unit a little bit.  I
also put it on a solid plywood base with casters and
put a particle board outer jacket on it for looks and
protection.  Nothing goes in my garage if if isn't on
wheels!  Hooked up an old 120 vac muffin fan to my old
hunter air-conditioner thermostat thingy and bingo,
almost instant fermentarium.  Nothing like putting
together an extremely usful gadget with nothing more
than styrofoam, particle board, caulking and Duct
tape.  The amazing thing is, it actually looks pretty
good and I'm surprised at how well it works.  I've
been keeping my Fermentarium at 64 degrees, even
though the temperature in the garage has been hitting
95 degrees during the day.  I usually give up brewing
in the summer, but with the way this is working, I see
no reason not to keep right on brewing.

Anyway, back to the brewing.  The pump worked great
and after the mash was complete, I raised the
temperature using the HERMS to mash out and proceeded
to do the sparge and boil.  Not much to report here,
but suffice it to say I started at 10:00am, finished
by 3:00pm, built a new fermentarium and had 10 gallons
of beer all tucked away and happily fermenting in
record time.  Aint brewing great!

Sincerely,
Brent Dowell
Lone Unknown Brewing
Antioch CA
 





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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 14:11:15 -0500
From: "Doug Hurst" <DougH at theshowdept.com>
Subject: Re: Software Piracy

Ok, I apologize that that my emotions got the best of me in my previous
post.  I should not have named anyone personally who may or may not have
engaged in an activity of which I disagree.  I do, however, still
believe that the software written for our hobby is generally of great
quality and those who write it should receive fair compensation for
their work.

Sorry, I'll go back to brew'n and drink'n now.

Doug Hurst
Chicago, IL


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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 15:46:04 -0400 
From: "Czerpak, Pete" <Pete.Czerpak at siigroup.com>
Subject: RE:keg foams no longer

In response to Ed Jones who ponders why the kleaning of his taps and lines
provided less foam and non-flat beer - it's called fouling.  In industry,
including those other than beer and food, fouling of pipelines and equipment
occurs with time due to mineral or other compounds building up or I guess
the reverse as well, wearring down if the medium is corrosive.  Fouling
factor is usually applied to heat transfer calculations while friction
factor is applied to pipe flow calcs.

When one design pipelines, a fouling factor is guessed from handbooks or
previous data.  The degree of fouling affects the friction factor which is
what determines how much pressure drop per ft of beer line there is.  That
is generally, the rougher the pipe, the higher the pressure drop, the more
pressure you would need at the source for an equal out pressure.  Since you
were working off assumed pipe/tubing roughness (probably close to
hydralically smooth atleast when new), when your lines were fouled and more
rough, your amount of keg pressure was then wrong.  fouling can also lead to
line restrictions and such where the beer is forced through a small orifice
which can drive gas in and out of solution also leading to foam.

enjoy the brews while your taps are clean.  your post reminds me to clean my
tap lines soon as well.  I tend to send a keg of very hot water thru them at
minimum every once in a while to help them out and keep deposits minimum.

brew on,
pete czerpak
albany, NY



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Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:54:14 -0400
From: Stephen.F.Higdon at am.pnu.com
Subject: HPLC day dreams

  High-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) would be a very handy 
  toy for us homebrewers.  It can be fitted with a fermentation 
  monitoring column that allows for the separation of sugars and acids 
  (among many other things).  It can tell you the exact amount of 
  glucose, ethanol or acetic acid in your beer, or nearly anything else 
  that may be there.  ...(Assuming you made up standards exactly, but 
  I'm not going into the fine details here)...  These are expensive 
  machines and require a bit of training to operate.
  
  I acquired a "junked" HPLC machine a couple years ago that was in the 
  dumpster, and have it nearly ready to run.  I let Bell's quality 
  control lab borrow it, but no one had the time to get her going.  It 
  now sits at a friends house waiting to be brought to life.  Some day I 
  invision running it to analyze fellow homebrewers beer.  You could 
  easily detect most (if not all) off flavors, or contamination.  If you 
  see an unusually high amount of lactic or acetic acid, for example, 
  you might suspect an infection.  Or if you have a high final gravity, 
  you could tell if it's from sugar or starch.  There are hundreds of 
  uses, really.  
  
  I was a fermentation operator for Upjohn, (Pharmacia) for several 
  years, then switched to fermentation research.  This is where the HPLC 
  experience came in.  We have a huge fermentation plant, and pilot 
  plant.  I now do lab scale chemical research, still using HPLC and GC 
  etc.  (I'm more like a lab rat, not a scientist)  
  
  Eventually I hope to post a note saying, "I'm ready to analyze your 
  strange brews!".  It would be fun, but time is scarce, we'll see.  All 
  that would be needed is a mL of beer.  It could be mailed in a sterile 
  tube.  I'm hoping that not much money will be needed to get it going.  
  We may try to recondition a column, and do most of the work ourselves. 
   Fortunately, I know someone else that works on these machines, and 
  likes homebrew!
  
  Another one of my "dreams"..........-Higgy          


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Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2001 01:24:02 
From: "christopher mika" <cmika at hotmail.com>
Subject: Plumbing for a three-tier RIMS

Greetings.  I am in the midst of constructing my 10 gallon three tier
brewing system and have reached a point where I believe the experience of 
this forum could save me a lot of time and heart ache.  My system is set up 
with the hot liquor tank below the mash tun with a pump provisioned to move 
the hot liquor between the vessels. I am also planning on incorporating a 
"SMART"-style RIMs system into the design.  I am hoping to draw upon the 
wisdom of this forum for tips on plumbing the system, keeping in mind I will 
have only one pump available.  I am considering using a hard-piped system 
with built-in diverter valves to control the flow of liquids through the 
system.  I am not sure how well this might work.  I also was wondering if QD 
fittings will work on a hard-piped system to aid in disassembly for a 
thorough cleaning.  One
other issue I could use some input on is in the design of a sparge arm or 
ring for the mash tun as well as a return for the liquor in the SMART
system. My mash tun is a converted 1/2 barrel keg with a 10 inch opening at 
the top. Any advice, instruction, or web addresses for sites describing 
similar systems would be much appreciated.

Thank You,
Chris Mika




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