HOMEBREW Digest #3705 Fri 10 August 2001

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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
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Contents:
  Sparge-ware (GordonRick)
  Sparge Water Distributors ("D. Schultz")
  Foaming Keg Blues (Mike Lemons)
  re: Keg Back Pressure (John Schnupp)
  Re: Sparge water distributors (Len Safhay)
  RE: Software (Piracy) (David Lamotte)
  Re: Sparge Water Distributors (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Sour mash beer ("RJ")
  Sparge Water Distributors ("Houseman, David L")
  Beer and Sweat 2001 ("Eric Tepe")
  Re: Sour mash beer (Joel Plutchak)
  Re:Sparge Water Distributors ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: CO2 and Germany (Rob Dewhirst)
  Re: Dry Hopping with pellets ("Pete Calinski")
  Re: removing flux from copper (Rob Dewhirst)
  Sour mash beer ("Houseman, David L")
  Re: Software Project (was: Software Piracy) ("Bruce Francis")
  Brussels (LJ Vitt)
  Belgium trip (LJ Vitt)
  Safe Sanitizer (Mike Lemons)
  Brew Pubs in the Carolinas (cearll)
  Re: Software piracy (Christopher Farley)
  RE: Sparge Water Distributors ("Laborde, Ronald")
  HPLC analysis (Warren Place)
  RE: Dry Hopping with pellets ("Lou King ")
  marbles in the keg ("Stephen Fiete")
  Diacetyl II ("Gene")

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 00:38:38 EDT
From: GordonRick at aol.com
Subject: Sparge-ware

For my system, an old 30L Bitburger Keg with a 12" hole in the top, I have 
found that the top from one of my 5 gal "pickle buckets" with a zillion holes 
drilled through it works just great as a sparge water distributor. After a 
short vorlauf, I simply run a plastic tube with a valve (or even a squeeze 
clamp) from my HLT (5 gal water cooler) onto the lid which just covers the 
hole in the top of my mash tun. I can calibrate the flow of sparge water to 
the outflow of wort and take a break to relax, not worry, etc. The sparge 
water trickles through the holes onto the inch or so of standing liquid above 
the mash without fear of tunneling. (credit goes to Brew-man Carl Godman) The 
price is right and the technology is about as simple as you can get.

Rick
Hopfen und Malz, Gott Erhalt's

Return to table of contents

Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:36:08 -0700
From: "D. Schultz" <d2schultz at qwest.net>
Subject: Sparge Water Distributors

I'm with Troy. No distributor here. I just keep an inch of water on top of
the grain bed.

Burp,
 -Dan

Return to table of contents

Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 00:39:52 -0700
From: Mike Lemons <ndcent at hotmail.com>
Subject: Foaming Keg Blues

Is there an upper limit to the volume of CO2 in a keg that you can serve
without foaming and losing that carbonation? I'm trying to serve a wheat
beer with an appropriate amount of carbonation for the style, say 3.5 to
4 volumes. The keg is at 36 degrees F. I've got 22 PSI on it. I've got
14 feet of brand new 3/16 inch vinyl tubing and a picnic tap. The line
is all refriderated. All I get is foam with a little flat beer.

The only thing that is weird about my setup is the inline brass adapters
to convert from 3/16 to 1/4 line at both ends. I could lose those and
just jam the line on there like everyone else. I have the connectors
because I was experimenting with 1/8 inch line in order to get a greater
pressure drop. There seems to be too much friction in 1/8 inch line such
that the beer would foam in the line before it ever got to the tap.

What happens when you have too much beer line?  Wait don't tell me.  The
beer foams right?  Is there a way to tell the difference between too-
short beer foam and too-long beer foam?

Someone mentioned foaming and fobbing.  Is "fob" a real word?

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 02:57:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Schnupp <johnschnupp at yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Keg Back Pressure

From: "Stephen Alexander" 
>The smaller tubing and uniform pressure drop really do >reduce foaming - tho'
they certainly don't eliminate it.  >It's also a PITA getting the smaller hose
over the larger >barb.

I'm behind on my digest reading but here goes.  Here are some tips for
completing the aforementioned.  They are pretty much in the order of my
success.

1. Soften the tubing by heating.  Use your choice.  I've used hot water,
boiling water and a lighter.  All work well, with the obvious cautions about
melting the tubing when using a flame.

2. Use a needle nosed pliers and insert it into the tubing and "pre-stretch"
the tubing before attempting to put it on the barb.

3. Use a slight amount of lube.  I use lube a product called Keg Lube.

4. Last resort, file (or grind) down the barbs on the connector.  If you do
this, you *must* use a hose clamp. 

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 07:17:04 -0400
From: Len Safhay <cloozoe at optonline.net>
Subject: Re: Sparge water distributors

Troy Hager wrote: Here is a question to the collective... How many of
you use some kind of sprinkling/manifold system to distribute the
sparge/recirculation water on top of the grain bed? And, how many of
you, like myself use nothing but the tube from the HLT or pump?

As a committed batch sparger, I do neither. Sparging the way the big
boys do it has nothing to do with quality and everything to do with
efficiency. Even at the micro brew level a few points difference can add
up in terms of malt costs. But a quick calculation indicates that a 5%
difference in efficiency on a 5 gallon batch with an  OG of 1.046 would
require using an additional .7 lbs of malt. I buy in bulk and with
shipping pay about $.70/lb., so for me the theoretical additional
expense comes to about 50 cents for the batch. Small price to pay for
better beer and a much shorter and less aggravating sparge session.

For those who are interested in pursuing this further,  Ken Schwartz has
done some wonderful work on the subject. Here's the link.

No Sparge and Batch Sparge Info

Len

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 21:36:01 +1000
From: David Lamotte <lamotted at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Software (Piracy)

Joel Plutchak wrote:

>>   Yes!  A couple years back a group brewing software effort
started, and I tried to get them to use emerging standards
like XML.  They'd have no part of it-- too complex, they said.
Use platform-independent, sensible stuff like XML and Java and
I'll contribute.

I agree with you Joe - XML is (and was back then as well) the way to go.

>>
Incidentally, I haven't heard from the aforementioned group
of software writers, so I assume that effort died in the
fermenter.
>>

It was more like the boiler - one massive boilover and then the flame went
out !

Count me in on any discussions.

David Lamotte

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:48:55 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Sparge Water Distributors

Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us> asked "a question to the collective":

>... How many of you use some kind of
>sprinkling/manifold system to distribute the sparge/recirculation water on
>top of the grain bed? And, how many of you, like myself use nothing but the
>tube from the HLT or pump?

I do exactly as you do, Troy, and always have - with no problems.  I 
agree that it's unnecessary to use a sprinkler, even though that's 
the origin of the word "sparge" (from O.E.D.: "app. ad. OFr. 
espargier or L. spargere to sprinkle").

>Martin also comments, "I've seen several sprinkling systems on the market or
>created by homebrewers.  I agree with the premise that we need to gently
>distribute sparge water across the grainbed without disturbance."
>
>Why? I repeatedly disturb the top inch or two of the grain bed with no ill
>effects...

Ditto here.  I find that it is useful to occasionally break up the 
teig - that doughy layer of fine particles that settles on top of the 
grain bed and seems to impede the free flow of sparge water.

K.I.S.S. is a useful rule of thumb that applies here, I think.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:16:43 -0400
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Sour mash beer

"Scott Basil" <sbasil at glasgow-ky.com> wrote:

"I have been brewing for several years, and have experimented with a lot of
different styles.  But, being from Kentucky, I've always been curious about
sour mash beer.  It doesn't seem like very many people have tried it, and
the
only recipe I have ever seen was in Charlie P's book.  Has anybody out there
tasted or brewed a sour mash recipe?  Is it worth the time and effort?"

I've used the sour mash method described in the JHB in trying to make
Lambic-style beers... Personally, I prefer the use of alternate cultures,
ie, Pediococcus damnosus, which is the primary acid (sour) producer in
Lambic-style beers.

Return to table of contents

Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:21:20 -0400 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Sparge Water Distributors

For a spage water distributor in my 10 gallon Gott mash/lauter tun, I place
a small, round (about 12" or so) aluminum pizza pan with evenly distributed
holes on the top of the bed after mashing and during the recirculation and
sparge.  I got this at K-mart for a couple bucks or so.  It turns out that
the inside of my Gott has slightly deformed with the heat over the years so
it became easy to put this pan in on top of the mash and it gets jammed into
place without actually sitting on the grain itself.  A small hole in the lid
of the Gott allows me to run my recirculation RIMS hose into tun with the
lid in place retaining the heat.  I then gravity feed my HLT into the tun
through this same hole in the lid.  When not using the hole, a solid stopper
keeps the heat in.  This pan provides for very even distribution of
recirculated wort and sparge water while avoiding splashing and retaining
the heat.  And, NO, no problems with aluminum!

David Houseman

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2007 09:28:04 -0400
From: "Eric Tepe" <erictepe at fuse.net>
Subject: Beer and Sweat 2001

Collective,
Well the dog days of summer are here and it is a perfect time for Beer
and Sweat 2001! This keg only (corney kegs, mini kegs, party pigs)
competition will be held at the Ramada Inn in Florence KY on August
18th from 10:00am until ?. Check in is at 10:00am to 12:00pm and
Judging starts at 2:00pm. Entries are only $5 for the first entry and
$3 for each additional. Entries must be to me by Thursday, August 16th
at midnight, although you pay at the comptition site. You can enter
online at www.hbd.org\bloat or contact me at erictepe at fuse.net. All
styles will be judged and this competition is registered with the AHA
and BJCP. If you would like to come and sample the fine brews, entry
is only $5. You can find directions and a map at www.hbd.org\bloat.
This competition really is a great time and includes a local
professional comptition (King of the Queen City), a raffle with some
really great prizes, entertainment, and a core audience of brewers and
beer lovers. You can book a room at the Ramada for only $65 by calling
859-371-4700 and ask for the Beer and Sweat rooms.

Thanks for the time and we hope to see you there!
Eric Tepe
Bloatarian Brewing League
Beer and Sweat 2001 Organizer

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 08:35:27 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sour mash beer

In HBD #3704 Scott Basil wrote:
>It doesn't seem like very many people have tried it, and the
>only recipe I have ever seen was in Charlie P's book.  Has anybody out
>there tasted or brewed a sour mash recipe?  Is it worth the time and
>effort?

   I made a sour mash pseudo Berliner Weiss based on an
article in _Zymurgy_ several years ago, I think written
by Dennis Davison.  It came out quite nicely, and taught
me a thing or two about lactic bacteria infections. ;-)
  I tried to search the AHA's web site for a more
definitive issue number, but was unable to find the info.
Wasn't a decent list of back issues there at one time?
I think it was a December issue, from 4-5 years back.

Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Bitter and occasionally sour in East-Central Illinois

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:43:30 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re:Sparge Water Distributors

Troy,

I just use a tube from the HLT.  I try to keep 1" of water over the grain
bed.  As I collect each gallon, I cut an "X" in the grain bed.

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

********************************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
********************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:05:44 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: CO2 and Germany

>
>I purchased a used CO2 tank from a welding shop.  Has anyone ever experienced
>a contaminant of some sort from their tank purchased at a welding supplier?  I
>assume the only way this would happen would be during hydro-testing when the
>valve is off.

Most welding shops also supply restaurants and bars with their C02.  By 
volume, it's probably used more for beverages than welding.  Your tank 
should be fine, unless you have some reason to believe it was contaminated?

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:51:28 -0400
From: "Pete Calinski" <pjcalinski at adelphia.net>
Subject: Re: Dry Hopping with pellets

I usually dry hop my APA with 1 oz. Cascades in a hop bag 2-3 days before
bottling.  No weight, it submerges in a few hours.

I have noticed that a significant amount of the hops gets through the bag.
I also get the impression that the beer seems to carbonate to a higher level
than if I don't dry hop.  I don't know if it is due to the hop particles
stimulating the yeast or to a minor infection.  (Or maybe my imagination.)

Pete Calinski
East Amherst NY
Near Buffalo NY

********************************************************************
*My goal:
*      Go through life and never drink the same beer twice.
*     (As long as it doesn't mean I have to skip a beer.)
********************************************************************

Return to table of contents

Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:13:19 -0500
From: Rob Dewhirst <robd at biocomplexity.nhm.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: removing flux from copper

>
>P.S.: One thing I'd like to know is what's the best way to remove
>any flux inside copper pipes once you've silver soldered them?

Use water-soluble flux.  It may be harder to find, but it IS available. The 
stuff I buy comes in a white disc-shaped case about the size of a hockey puck.

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:08:53 -0500 
From: "Houseman, David L" <David.Houseman at unisys.com>
Subject: Sour mash beer

Scott,

A few years ago I did a "sour mash" as a way of producing a Berliner Weisse.
It wasn't actually the mash that was soured but rather cooled wort (to about
100oF) was infected with some crushed grain and left to sour for several
days.  And indeed it did.  The stinkier the better.  At that point this wort
was re-boiled, yeast pitched and fermented.  The lactic sourness was present
in this Berliner Weisse and it was well received in competitions.   I
suppose you could certainly do this in the mash itself and just spread the
brewing day over several days time.  Might have to think about trying this
again....

Dave Houseman

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:13:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Bruce Francis" <bfrancis at pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Software Project (was: Software Piracy)

Chris Farley wrote:
>I don't disagree. ProMash is an incredibly useful piece of software,
>well worth the $25. There's nothing else that even comes close, and it
>would be a tremendous challenge to produce a product that would approach
>the usefulness of ProMash. That said, I think it's do-able.
>=================
>If one or more competitors to ProMash were to emerge, free or otherwise,
>I think that would probably be a good thing for the small-but-vital
>brewing software 'industry'. 

Is everyone aware of the GREAT program(s) written by Mark Riley,
hosted right here on hbd.org ?  Specifically, the "Recipator" is a truly
wonderful program, and is web-based.  There is also a huge collection 
of recipes, all in recipator-format.

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator

All of Mark Riley's programs:
http://hbd.org/~mriley/

The "Carbonation Calculator" is particularly useful.

If you haven't looked at and used the Recipator, I think you'd 
want to do so before starting a large project!  If you have used 
it and still think this project is worthwhile, one would think 
getting input from Mark Riley would be useful.  If you're going 
to reinvent the wheel, why don't you try to get one of the original 
inventors on-board?  

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:30:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Brussels

Subject: Re: At last a trip to Europe...

Hi!

>     My girlfriend and I are going to Europe in Sept for 3 weeks and 
would 
>like some recommendations as to where to stop for good beer?? We will 
be 
>driving a rental and don't mind some off the beaten track kinda gigs. 
We 
>will be visitng England(shortest stay of all due to distance and time 
>constraints), Belgium(Brussels and Antwerp), Germany(Nuremburg and 
Munich 
>for Oktoberfest), Switzerland(Zurich, Interlakken, Thun, and Zermatt 

I have some Brussels suggestions.  I was there in late May a trip our 
small group called 2001 a beer odessy.
Cantillon - It operates as a museum.  One of the last remaining traditional
Lambic breweries.  The standard self guided tour ends with samples of 
2 lambics.  There is a deluxe tour with more samples.

point Noir - This is a basement level beer cafe with a large selection.
Walking distance from Dam Cental, not sure of direction but I think
Southwest.

Pupit Theater - It is a cafe across the street from the famous Manican
Pis statue.

LopLop - another interesting beer cafe, general area of Dam Central.
I recall this being to the east.

Beer Circus - This is a bottle store.  Even if you don't want to carry
beer around with you, this is worth walking through.  

Confederation of Belgian Brewer Beer Museum - Interesting little museum
with some centuries old equipment contrasted with modern stainless.
200BF includes one beer.  This is located in Dam Cental, near the chocolate
museum.

Mort Subite Cafe - This is long out of the center to the south east.
Serves the Mort Subite Lambics, but not a lot else.

It took us 3 days to visit all of these places (along with Huyghe Brewery 
in Melle, and couple of places in downtown Ghent)

 - Leo

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 07:47:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: LJ Vitt <lvitt4 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Belgium trip

Douglas,

I think the 24 hours of Belgium (a tasting feastival) is in November.
It is located in Antwerp, and held for 2 12 hour periods over 2 days.

I enjoyed going in May (just this year).  We were off peak for flight
cost and hotel cost.  Weather was good for packing  light, because it
was warm.  My only coat was a wind breaker I rairly needed.

Rail pass got us to Ghent, Brussels, Diksmuide.  Westvlerten and Kastel 
required a car. No tours, you just get to drink in the cafe at Kastel and
Westvlerten.  Cab ride from Diksmuide to Mad brewers in Essen (Sat 
and Sun only, English/French tour 2pm).  I hear Bruges is a good place for 
beer cafes too.

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:52:13 -0700
From: Mike Lemons <ndcent at hotmail.com>
Subject: Safe Sanitizer

By "safe" I mean something that you could drip into the beer and it
wouldn't affect the flavor or harm the health of the drinker or the
yeast.

I've been using cheap gin.  I put it in the airlock.  I wipe off the
opening where the airlock goes with it.  I use it to clean the crud from
the top of the fermentor when I am going to refill it with fresh wort
and want to keep the yeast at the bottom.

The problem is that I am not even sure that 80 proof gin kills anything.
At five dollars for 750 ml, it is not that cheap. I would rather use 150
proof ethanol, but I have never found any on sale for a reasonable
price. I bought some hydrogen peroxide for pickling brass and it was on
sale for 50 cents a pint. It seems to me that I could use this as a safe
sanitizer as long as I didn't get it into finished beer or anything else
that you want to protect from oxidation. New beer, fresh from the
boiling kettle, it seems to me that it wouldn't be hurt very much by
peroxide.

I use iodophor for normal sanitation.  I worry about getting it into
small yeast starters.  I feel that it might hurt the yeast.  It also
won't last in an airlock.

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:36:14 GMT
From: cearll at telusplanet.net
Subject: Brew Pubs in the Carolinas

Hello everyone,
     my brother and I will be attending the Southern 500 at Darlington in a
couple of weeks. Can anyone recommend a brew pub to visit at Charlotte or in
the Myrtle Beach area? Hope this isn't too off topic and thanks!

Craig Lefevre
An amateur brewer in Vegreville, Alberta

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:49:34 -0500
From: Christopher Farley <chris at northernbrewer.com>
Subject: Re: Software piracy

Robert Schmidt wrote: 

> That sounds cool. Chris, can you set up the mailing list (if we are doing
> something Free we could use SourceForge). It would also make sense
> for it to be a web application (would work nicely with your XML schema).

There is now a mailing list for this project; I didn't use SourceForge
because we have a T1 here at the store and I'd like to use a bit more of
its bandwidth so I feel like I'm getting my money's worth...

Subscribe one of two ways:

1. Visit http://sparge.nbrewer.com/mailman/listinfo/openbrew-dev

2. Send a message to openbrew-dev-request@ northernbrewer.com with the 
   word 'subscribe' in the subject

I assume we'll report back here and elsewhere if we have anything that
requires wider input.

As you can see, I've also initially selected the name 'openbrew' for
the project. This issue, and others, are subject to debate on the above
list.

Oh yeah, for the curious lurkers, posts are archived at
http://sparge.nbrewer.com/pipermail/openbrew-dev/

There's not much there yet.

- -- 
Christopher Farley
www.northernbrewer.com

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:34:05 -0500 
From: "Laborde, Ronald" <rlabor at lsuhsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Sparge Water Distributors

>From: Karen & Troy Hager <thager at smcoe.k12.ca.us>
>
>Here is a question to the collective... How many of you use some kind of
>sprinkling/manifold system to distribute the sparge/recirculation water on
>top of the grain bed? And, how many of you, like myself use nothing but the
>tube from the HLT or pump?

I use the  upside down H configuration.  It seems to work well for me in my
HERIMS.  I did notice some depressions in 4 individual locations at the top
of the grain bed just above the outlets.  I figure a minimal amount of
channeling was occurring.

Then, I got the idea of using a lightweight plastic 8 inch plate floating on
top of the grains.  Once I used a heavier ceramic plate, and decided this
was too heavy and would compact the grains from it's weight.  The
lightweight plate (the disposable kind, not Styrofoam, it warps) seems to
work very well.

Ron La Borde

Ronald La Borde - Metairie, Louisiana - rlabor at lsuhsc.edu
http://hbd.org/rlaborde

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:25:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Warren Place <wrplace at ucdavis.edu>
Subject: HPLC analysis

> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 16:54:14 -0400
> From: Stephen.F.Higdon at am.pnu.com
> Subject: HPLC day dreams
>
>   High-performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) would be a very handy
>   toy for us homebrewers.  It can be fitted with a fermentation
>   monitoring column that allows for the separation of sugars and acids
>   (among many other things).  It can tell you the exact amount of
>   glucose, ethanol or acetic acid in your beer, or nearly anything else
>   that may be there.
	That is a great piece of equipment.  I used to have access to one,
as well as a GC.  Now, it is not as convenient, but I could get one if I
was so inclined.  The only time I find it necessary is when I want to
check on spoilage in beer, wine, or cider.

Warren Place

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 19:43:17 -0400
From: "Lou King " <lking at pobox.com>
Subject: RE: Dry Hopping with pellets

It seems like people are saying it's ok to dry hop with pellets by just
throwing them in the secondary.

But I have a conical fermenter, and I have been wondering how the
particles from the pellets will collect, and if they'll clog the bottom
port.

Does anyone have experience with this?

 -Lou

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Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 20:06:57 -0500
From: "Stephen Fiete" <sfiete at hotmail.com>
Subject: marbles in the keg

I am dryhopping an ESB and need somthing to weigh down bag of hops. I have 
some marbles, but I do not know if they are food grade, or would create any 
problem if left in my keg for as long as the beer lasted.

Anyone know anything about this?

Steve Fiete

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Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:38:42 -0500
From: "Gene" <gcollins at geotec.net>
Subject: Diacetyl II

About a week ago, I posted a question as to whether yeast would re-absorb
diacetyl if it was chilled. No one has responded to the post, so I thought I
would post it again to see if I could get any takers. Is this a retarded
question or was it overlooked?

Gene Collins
Broken Arrow, OK

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