---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Digest Janitor: janitor@hbd.org


***************************************************************
       THIS YEAR'S HOME BREW DIGEST BROUGHT TO YOU BY: 

          Northern  Brewer, Ltd. Home Brew Supplies
        http://www.northernbrewer.com  1-800-681-2739

    Support those who support you! Visit our sponsor's site!
********** Also visit http://hbd.org/hbdsponsors.html *********


Contents:
  Re: Cloudy Beer ("Craig Olson")
  Re: Circle Line Pub Crawl, London. ("Philip Wilcox")
  RE: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts ("Fred L. Johnson")
  RE: Draft box ("Audie Kennedy")
  Subject: what is the best way to make a starter? ("Daniel Gurzynski")
  Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract (Steven S)
  Re: Re: CF Chillers and using the water ("RJ")
  Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract ("RJ")
  RE: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? ("Steven Parfitt")
  Re:Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? ("RJ")
  Re: Draft box ("RJ")
  Chickory in beer? (gsferg)
  high FG Dunkel/coil boxes ("Jim Busch")
  Re: CF Chillers and using the water ("Walker, Randy")
  RE: Warm Beer ("Bissell, Todd S")
  Re:  Full Wort Boil For Extract (Jeff Renner)
  Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts? (Jeff Renner)
  How to "Carry" Oxygen? (mohrstrom)
  Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract ("Drew Avis")
  Fridge temp ("Doug Marion")
  HSOE Dec. 1 ("Steve Ashton")
  Catskill Classifieds (EMT210791)
  Lye, food grade . Situation in Germany ("Gregor Zellmann")
  Hydroxide (AJ)


*
* Show your HBD pride! Wear an HBD Badge! 
* http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/shopping
*
* Beer is our obsession and we're late for therapy!
*

Send articles for __publication_only__ to post@hbd.org

If your e-mail account is being deleted, please unsubscribe first!!

To SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE send an e-mail message with the word
  "subscribe" or "unsubscribe" to request@hbd.org FROM THE E-MAIL
  ACCOUNT YOU WISH TO HAVE SUBSCRIBED OR UNSUBSCRIBED!!!**
IF YOU HAVE SPAM-PROOFED your e-mail address, you cannot subscribe to
  the digest as we cannot reach you. We will not correct your address
  for the automation - that's your job.

The HBD is a copyrighted document. The compilation is copyright 
  HBD.ORG. Individual postings are copyright by their authors. ASK 
  before reproducing and you'll rarely have trouble. Digest content 
  cannot be reproduced by any means for sale or profit.

More information is available by sending the word "info" to 
req at hbd.org.

JANITOR on duty: Pat Babcock and Karl Lutzen (janitor@hbd.org)



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 21:01:54 -0800
From: "Craig Olson" <craigo at nas.com>
Subject: Re: Cloudy Beer

Thanks to everybody who responded about the cloudy beer issue - lot's of
good information that I will try with future batches.  Perhaps the most
humorous post was from Steven S. who said "Drink your beer out of a stone
mug.  If you can't see it..."

ROFLMAO!  Goes back to my original perspective which was that it tastes
great - goes down smooth and I've never much worried about making it look a
certain way.  Obey your thirst!  However, I'm gonna give these
beer-clearing ideas a try & will post a note one I have something relevant
to say.  Thanks again - this is a very cool list!

Craig Olson
Lummi Island, Washington (state)



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:55:04 -0000
From: "Philip Wilcox" <philip.wilcox at btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Circle Line Pub Crawl, London.

A while back Pete Calinski spoke of the infamous Circle Line Pub Crawl:

>There is one tube route that runs in a circle in central London.  The
object
>is to drink a pint  at every stop.  Supposedly, you have a limited time to
>make the circuit and it has to be during rush hour if I remember right.
>There may be other conditions.  Seems to me you get your name posted
>somewhere or something.   wish I could remember more of the details.

  I wish I could remember more about doing it!! Myself and 7 buddies did it
in 1999. 27 stations, 28 pubs, completed in 12 hours. Excellent fun but damn
hard work even if you only have a half in each pub.
 There's some pictures available at http://www.aardvark.cwc.net/pubcrawl.htm
unfortunately the plan of one photo at each stop didn't quite work out.
Especially later in the day. Warning some of the pictures get rather silly
too!!

Philip Wilcox aka BeerBloke
'Wibblers Brewery'
Romford, Essex, England.
[5082.8 mi, 76.1 deg] (Apparent) Rennerian



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 06:12:57 -0500
From: "Fred L. Johnson" <FLJohnson at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts

Dean Fikar wonders why his Munich dunkel finished at such a high gravity
(1.027, started at 1.060).  I strongly believe that a large part of the
problems is the high proportion of Munich malt in this beer.  My experience
with high amounts of Munich has consistently been less attenuation than
expected, although I have not been careful to note the brand of Munich malt
I've used.  I suspect it will depend on the maltster.

On top of that, Dean's first rest was at 158 degrees F.  I am also certain
that this is contributory to the low attenuation, but I suspect Dean's beer
would have finished at about 1.020-1.021 even with a low-temp rest.

In this regard, I have NEVER been able to get necessary 78-82% attenuation
required for the altbeir style using Munich malt as the base malt (85-90%).
My attenuations were only about 65% at best.  I have essentially given up on
trying to produce this style for this reason.  Advice?
- -- 
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina
USA



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:21:15 -0500
From: "Audie Kennedy" <audie_24293 at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Draft box

I wondered the same thing myself.  You can easily and cheaply replace the
vinyl tubing.  I can get food-grade vinyl for $.07 per foot. I considered
doing what you suggest, but went a different route.  I built a cooler for my
cornie kegs out of a $8 trash can, $10 of insulation, a $3 five gallon
plastic bucket, a $3 sleeping pad, and that cheap tubing.  I duct-taped a
cylinder made from the sleeping pad onto the top of the bucket, placed it in
the middle of the trash can, insulated all around, and made a "collar" from
the left over sleeping pad to cover the gap between the cylinder and the
wall of the trash can. I used a $1 piece of pipe insulation around the top
of the cylinder to give it a finished look.  I cool the beer by putting a
few ice cubes down in the bucket, then placing a 2-liter soda bottle with
ice on top of the keg.  I have ten feet of the vinyl tubing as my serving
line, with a "cobra" picnic faucet.  I coil the tubing on top of the keg,
and it gets chilled by the bottle.  I replace the bottle every day with one
from the freezer.  The top of the the trash can is somewhat flexible and I
just snap it down over the gas line going in.  It keeps my brew nice and
cool, and will work till I can get a fridge, and at no cost other than
freezing the soda bottles, and the original construction costs at less than
$20.  I put up a picture at
 http://www.geocities.com/audie_24293/kegcooler.jpg with the lid removed and
the soda bottle ice moved to one side. I remove the water from melted ice
from the bucket in the bottom by using a piece of one inch pipe fitted on a
shop-vac.
I have not taken it anywhere, but it weighs next to nothing, so you could
use it as a portable keg cooler if needed.
Audie Kennedy
Wise, Va.




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:52:20 -0500
From: "Daniel Gurzynski" <daniel at buffnet.net>
Subject: Subject: what is the best way to make a starter?

In reply to; "Stephen Fiete" <sfiete at hotmail.com>

When I make a starter it is nothing like that complex. First, I am an
extract brewer and like to mix into a 3 gallon brew pot. Once the wort is
boiling for a few minutes, I scoop out a 1/2 cup or so and mix it 50/50 or
more with bottled water. This will knock the temp down quite a bit. Then if
it needs to come down more I put the starter jar in a bowl of cold water
until I get the temp I need. This has worked quite nicely for many many
batches. I find it makes me feel better to pitch a jar of foaming bubbling
yeast that's been working for an hour or two than just sprinkling powder and
hoping it wakes up. Of course you have to leave enough room in your starter
jar for foam and give it a way to bleed CO2. I have even used just some
saran wrap tied down loosely with a rubber band.  Good luck.

Daniel Gurzynski
Orchard Park, NY
[256.2, 80.6] Rennerian





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:07:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Steven S <stevensl at corp.earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract


Neal Wrote:
> I've only been brewing for the last year and have done 18 successful
> batches. I am an extract brewer and don't have the interest/time for all
> grain brewing. 

All grain does add some complexity and PITA factor but I've found it adds
very little time to my brew days. I can do other stuff while I wait on the
mash. Extract brewing does produce great beer.

> I have a 32 quart pot that I brew in. When a recipe calls
> for steeping a particular grain or grains in 1or 2 gallons of water,
> what is the difference if I steep it in 5 or 6 gallons of water? 

Well in general it doesnt matter since these grains do not need
mashing. The typical reason, I think, for the 1-2 gallons of water is to
allow the grains to steep then you rinse (sparge) the grains with a gallon
or two of your heated water (not boiling). If you were to steep your
grains in your full water volume you would probably be leaving behind a
good deal of trapped sugars, flavor, etc. You do need to be careful not to
extract tannins from over-rinsing the grain though so just steeping the
grains might work for you.  

>Also, is there any benefit to boiling the entire batch of wort when you do
> extract beers? Most recipe's call for a 2 or three gallon initial boil
> and then add it to the water already in the carboy. I did a full wort
> boil on my last batch but have yet to try it.


Hrm, i've not seen this. Most of the recipes i've seen require full volume
boils. I would say this is due to the high gravity of extract worts
compared to all grain worts. When I was doing extract brews in a 5 gallon
batch, after my boil I would end up with a bit over 4 gallons, forcing me
to top off my carboy with around 1-1.5 gallons of ice cold water. I
noticed after boil my extract brews were quite thick and the gravity quite
high, after topping off I hit the "typical" gravity for the style. 




 Steven St.Laurent ::: stevensl at mindspring.net ::: 403forbidden.net
	[580.2, 181.4] Rennerian ::: Lilburn (atlanta) GA







Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:25:47 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Re: CF Chillers and using the water

"Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com> wrote:

"Here's another eco-tree-hugging-water-conservation-or-at-least-recycling
tip: When the garden is frozen over (which seems like 10 months of the year
around here) and I don't want to turn it into a skating rink, I collect the
warm CF water in carboys and then dump it into the washing machine when
doing the next load of laundry.  You'd be amazed at how many gallons of
water go into a single load (7.5 with my machine)."

Drew and et al,

Here's another one for you and the rest of the group... Recycle that winter
water!

When it's too cold to water the plants, and I begin brewing inside, I fill a
55 gallon plastic garbage can (you know, the kind with wheels) about 1/3
full of water...

The night before brewing, I fill 5 or 6 gallon sized milk jugs and leave
them outside to freeze.  The CF is then attached to a submersible pump that
draws water to the CF, while the out tube is positioned above the water in
the garbage can, it delivers all the cold I need...

If you decide to brew without freezing any jugs in advance, snow & water
work well, too!

This really cuts down on water normally lost.

Will work with an immersion chiller, as well, if you've got two of them, one
in the garbage can and one in the brew, working in a continuous loop, of
course.

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region - NH







Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:35:02 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract

"Neal Andreae" <cstone at shentel.net> wrote:

<snip> "Also, is there any benefit to boiling the entire batch of wort when
you do extract beers? Most recipe's call for a 2 or three gallon initial
boil and then add it to the
water already in the carboy. I did a full wort boil on my last batch but
have yet to try it."

Neal,

There are several distinct advantages, that come to mind...
1.    Far less wort darkening (esp noticable in pale brews)
2.    Greater hop bittering extraction (you'll want to experiment with this,
usually about         1/3 less is needed).
3.    Better hot & cold breaks, yielding clearer beer
4.    A full rolling boil, will give the finished beer better foam
characteristics.

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region - NH





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 08:34:45 -0500
From: "Steven Parfitt" <the_gimp98 at hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts?

Dean Fikar Ponders a high TG:

I'm a little stumped by the relatively low attenuation achieved after
brewing a batch of Munich dunkel recently.  The original gravity was 1.060 
and the final gravity a whopping 1.027.  Usually this would mean that 
something went wrong with the yeast but I don't think that this is the case 
with my batch.

 ...Big SNIP tothe telling facts....

Mash Specifics:

1.)  Infused 6.25 gal. water at 170F for a 25 min. rest at 158F.

My opinion is that we don't need to go any further. I believe that this high 
of a Sacc. temp resulted in lots of unfermentables.

I mashed my recent Porter (not tried yet) and Pumpkin Honey Porter 
(MMMMmmmmm, but sweet) at 156. My Porter was OG 1.064/TG 1.021 and the PHP 
was OG 1.092/TG 1.021.

I suspect the additional 2F that you mashed at would give even more 
unfermentables  and higher TG than I got.

I am trying an experiment on the PHP by adding three drops of Beano and 
allowing it to continue fermenting for several weeks at 64F to see if the TG 
will drop a couple points more. I have been told that this works by a couple 
people who have done it. I was cautioned to only use a half tablet at a time 
as it can be overdone. I found Beano in liquid form and decided to try it as 
comparing it to the tabs revealed that 5 drops = 1 Tab. The liquid seems 
easier to work with.


Steven, -75 XLCH- Ironhead Nano-Brewery  http://thegimp.8k.com
Johnson City, TN [422.7, 169.2] Rennerian

"Fools you are... who say you like to learn from your mistakes.... I prefer 
to learn from the mistakes of others and avoid the cost of my own." Otto von 
Bismarck




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:59:49 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re:Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts?

Dean Fikar <dfikar at swbell.net> wrote:
Subject: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts?

"I'm a little stumped by the relatively low attenuation achieved after
brewing a batch of Munich dunkel recently.  The original gravity was 1.060
and the final gravity a whopping 1.027.  Usually this would mean that
something went wrong with the yeast but I don't think that this is the case
with my batch."  <snip>

Brewed on:  10/12/01
Batch size:      6.5 gal.
OG:            1.060
FG:            1.027

Grain bill:

Carafoam                       8.0 ozs.
Belgian Aromatic                 1 lbs. +  8.0 ozs.
Moravian Munich                  4 lbs. +  8.0 ozs.
Belgian Munich                  10 lbs.
Belgian Chocolate              5.0 ozs.

Yeast:

Wyeast  2206       (2 qt. starter)

Mash Specifics:

1.)  Infused 6.25 gal. water at 170F for a 25 min. rest at 158F.
2.)  Pulled 5 gal. of thick mash, heated to 212F then boiled for 30 min.
Decoction then returned to main mash for a 25 min. rest at 165F.
3.)  Infused 2 gal. water at 190F for a 10 min. rest at 172F.

Boil time: 75 min.  1/2 tsp. Servomyces added 10 min. before knockout.

Pitched yeast on 10/12/01 at 52F
10/12/01 - temp. set to 48F


<snip>  "I am curious if any of you all-grain brewers
out there have had a similar experience where your attenuation was barely
more than half of the original gravity and it does not appear that the yeast
pooped out.  I'd be interested in any thoughts or comments."

Well Dean,

I think you hit the prime reasons,
1.    Not the yeast
2.    High starting temperature of the mash

I've used Weyermann's 6.5L Munich with nearly the same points/lb as I would
get from a pilsner malt of the same quality.  I find the darker munich's on
the market are best used for color/flavor additions vs. base malt.

Using my standard step-mash program without the decoction, that you used,
I'd guesstimate my OG (with Weyermann's) would have been significantely
higher than yours (~1.08). And, with a 72% attenuation factor would have
finished at roughly 1.020.

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region - NH







Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:23:10 -0500
From: "RJ" <wortsup at metrocast.net>
Subject: Re: Draft box

"Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com> wrote:

"I'm wondering about building a draft box with a 48qt cooler. I'm curious if
I can build a two handle draft box cheaper by using vinyl tubing inside
instead of stainless steel or copper coils."

<snip>

Doug,

I'm sure that the heat transfer could be overcome by additional length, but
that would pose a greater problem.

As the length of the material increases, more pressure is needed to push the
beer through, that said, I don't believe that vinyl tubing could take the
necessary pressure, to do the job.

RJ <aka Olde Phenomian>
43:30:3.298N x 71:39:9.911W
Lakes Region - NH




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 09:32:22 -0500
From: gsferg at clary.gwi.net
Subject: Chickory in beer?

We grew a half acre of chicory this year for a neighbor that's making a coffee 
substitute, and I have more than a few bushels of chickory root at my 
disposal. Is anyone aware of a beer recipe using chickory? It's delightfully 
bitter :)

George-

- -- 
George S. Fergusson <gsferg at clary.gwi.net>
Oracle DBA, Programmer, Humorist
Wooden Bear Brewery
Whitefield, Maine US [729.7, 79.6] Renerian
- --------------
I am a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:43:23 +0000
From: "Jim Busch" <jim at victorybeer.com>
Subject: high FG Dunkel/coil boxes

Dean asks about his decocted munich malt Dunkel that finished at 
1.027.  I think he has his answer, just that he expected a lower 
terminal gravity.  You really need to mash this beer for sometime at 
the beta amylaze temps of 144-148F before boosting to saach temps.
Id suggest using the decoction to boost from 146F to 156F, after a 
15-30 min rest at 146F.   Your recipe looks good but you might want 
to try some Weyermann dehusked carafa in place of the chocolate next 
time, yields a smoother dunkel IMO.

Doug asks making a jockey box using vinyl tubing.  This sounds 
extremely inefficient to me and the problem will be residence time 
in the tubing as you dispense the beer, not enough time to chill the 
beer assuming the beer is not already at dispense temp.  I know cost 
is relative, but Rapids sells the 50' SS tubing for $52 and a 2 
line aluminum chill plate for $99.  The cheapest way to go is to 
convert the old frige into a multitap and use regular vinyl beer line 
to dispense.

Positive vibes to Dr. Fix too!

Prost!

Jim Busch


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 07:42:44 -0700 
From: "Walker, Randy" <Walkerr at littongcs.com>
Subject: Re: CF Chillers and using the water

I used to live in a house with a swimming pool and used it for my water
source.
I pumped the water from the pool through my immersion chiller and back into
the 
pool using an electric drill powered pump and pieces of garden hose. No
wasted
water and it warmed the pool a little bit.

Randy Walker
Salt Lake City, UT



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 06:38:40 -0800
From: "Bissell, Todd S" <tbissell at spawar.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: Warm Beer



>I'm sure most of you are aware of this....but for the few that aren't--the
>perfect beer temperature (depends a bit on the style, but usually
considered
>around "cellar" temperature, i.e. in the 50s F) can be easily acquired,
>without a cellar, by putting your beer glasses in the freezer.  Store the
>beer at room temperature, poor into the frozen glass, and shortly
thereafter
>you have a happy medium of less than room temp, but not (shiver!) "ICE
COLD"
>beer either.

IMHO, this trick works only if your freezer doesn't add any funky flavors.
My tap water is *HIGHLY* chlorinated (no amount of boiling reduces it,
either), and somehow -- don't ask me how, since I'm not a HVAC Technician or
anything -- but the same *highly* chlorinated flavor gets in anything I
freeze and later thaw. Not noticeable in beef and chicken and Swansons
Frozen Dinners (hey, gimme a break, I am a bachelor, after all!), but pretty
bad for ice cubes, and any glassware I chill.

I've been reversing the process, by leaving the glass at room temperature,
and leaving the bottle I want to chill in the freezer for "x" amount of
time, when "x" equals=

Bottle size / Time in Freezer

6 oz = 11 minutes

12 oz = 22 minutes

16 oz = 30 minutes

500ml = 31 minutes

22 oz = 41 minutes

750ml = 47 minutes

As usual, these results only truly apply to my own beat-up apartment-owned
`fridge/freezer, so you're results will vary a bit. Experiment with your own
freezer, a thermometer, and some crappy Pete's Wicked Ale or whatever you
have on hand (i.e. whatever you don't want to worry about if you mess up and
accidentally freeze solid), to find out exactly how long it takes your own
freezer to chill an 12-oz Ale to 50-degrees Fahrenheit (sp.). Once you got
that measurement, it simply a matter of ratios to adjust the oz's-to-time
ratio appropriately.

Cheers!

Todd Bissell

Imperial Beach, CA





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:43:19 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re:  Full Wort Boil For Extract

"Neal Andreae" <cstone at shentel.net> writes from Neal Upperville, Virginia

>I've only been brewing for the last year and have done 18 successful
>batches. I am an extract brewer and don't have the interest/time for all
>grain brewing.

No problem.  You can make great beer from extracts.  Maybe someday 
you'll find you have the time and interest to go all grain.  It's a 
great additional dimension, but certainly not a necessity.

>I have a 32 quart pot that I brew in. When a recipe calls for
>steeping a particular grain or grains in 1or 2 gallons of water, what is the
>difference if I steep it in 5 or 6 gallons of water?

I think that if your water is at all alkaline and you are steeping 
paler malts, your pH might be too high (>~5.8 - 6.0) and you might 
get some harsh flavors.  In general, I think you might best steep in 
the proportions that masher use - 1-1.5 qts. per pound, and then 
sparge.

>Also, is there any
>benefit to boiling the entire batch of wort when you do extract beers?

You get more efficient hop extraction and less wort darkening, both 
due to the lower SG of the boiling wort.

>Most
>recipe's call for a 2 or three gallon initial boil and then add it to the
>water already in the carboy.

That's because most people don't have as big a kettle as you do.  It 
also lets you chill the water in the carboy so you get cool wort.

>I did a full wort boil on my last batch but
>have yet to try it.

By "it" I assume you mean 2-3 gallon boil.  If you can chill a full 
boil, I'd go for that.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 09:58:43 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <JeffRenner at mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Puzzling lager fermentation - any thoughts?

Dean Fikar writes from Ft. Worth, TX

>I'm a little stumped by the relatively low attenuation achieved after
>brewing a batch of Munich dunkel recently.  The original gravity was 1.060
>and the final gravity a whopping 1.027.
<snip>
>Grain bill:
>
>Carafoam                       8.0 ozs.
>Belgian Aromatic                 1 lbs. +  8.0 ozs.
>Moravian Munich                  4 lbs. +  8.0 ozs.
>Belgian Munich                  10 lbs.
>Belgian Chocolate              5.0 ozs.
<snip>
>I can see two things that likely contributed to the low attenuation.  First,
>it seems that the batches that I brew where the grain bill is dominated by
>Munich malt tend to be a little less attenuated than those brewed with
>mainly pilsner or vienna malts.  Secondly, the lowest mash temperature was a
>relatively high 158 degrees.  Obviously, one would expect relatively low
>attenuation.  However, I would of thought that this would be somewhere in
>the mid to low 60's rather than mid 50's.

Dean, I think you've answered your own question perfectly.  High 
proportion of Munich malt and high mash temperatures.  I am lagering 
a 100% Durst dark Munich malt (40EBC, ~20L) that went from 
1.050->1.020, or 60%.  I mashed at 147/160/170.  That mashin and rest 
at 147 probably made the difference.  Still, I had hoped, like you, 
for 65%.

Munich malt definitely has less fermentability.  You may remember 
that last week Steve Alexander addressed the question of less 
fermentability of higher kilned malts due to low beta-amylase levels 
when he addressed a question I posed (referring to British malts.

Sever Alexander wrote in HBD 3777:

>British PA malts have less diastatic power(DP) than lager malts, but the
>difference is mostly in the beta-amylase level due to the high kilning .
>Alpha-amylase levels are very similar from all the data I can find, with
>many PA malts at a higher AA level than pils malts !  In years past PA malt
>barley had much lower protein (and so enzyme) levels) than other malts, but
>the gap has narrowed - pils malts may have 10% more protein, seldom more.
>
>Also any pale malt has alpha-amylase to burn - about 20 times the amount of
>activity as beta-amylase.   So mashes are always beta-amylase poor and
>alpha-amylase rich in relative terms.
>
>There is a certain synergism in the effect of the two amylases, but
>alpha-amylase is the workhorse that gets the iodine test to pass.  I'd
>expect weaker performance from PA malt but not be a great deal.    I don't
>think it's unreasonable to expect iodine conversion from 6lbs of PA malt and
>2 lbs of rye flakes in a long low mash like Joels'.  Getting high
>fermentability from this grist bill will be more problematic due to the
>lower bet-amylase levels.

I think this likely applies to Munich malts, which are kilned a good 
deal higher than British pale ale malts.

Maybe Steve could suggest a mashing regime for greater attenuation 
using large amounts of Munich malt.  My 147/160/170 didn't do a whole 
lot better than yours.

Jeff
- -- 
Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan USA, JeffRenner at mediaone.net
"One never knows, do one?"  Fats Waller, American Musician, 1904-1943


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:16:34 -0500
From: mohrstrom at humphrey-products.com
Subject: How to "Carry" Oxygen?

All of this talk of welding v. medical grades of oxygen got me to thinking:
I've got  a full-sized cylinder of 02 in the garage for my ox/acetylene
rig.  Is there a practical (and safe, although it goes against my nature
 ...) way to "carry" a small volume of oxygen from the garage to the
fermenter?  I've thought of blowing up balloons, to be vented through a
filter and airstone into the wort.  I'd rather not drag that filthy torch
hose near my carboy, and sure don't need to be toting a couple of carboys
into the garage and back.  Are there any ignition hazards form latex,
vinyl, etc.?

Mark in Kalamazoo




Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 11:29:07 -0500
From: "Drew Avis" <andrew_avis at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Full Wort Boil For Extract

Neal Andreae asks about doing a full-wort boil for extract brewing.  Full
wort boils serve three purposes: 1) increase hop bitterness extraction over
concentrated boils; 2) less darkening of wort due to carmelization; and 3)
sterilization of the wort.  If you compensate for 1 with additional hops,
don't worry too much about 2, and have a clean source of cold water for 3,
then concentrated wort boils are just as good as full-wort boils, IMHO.  In
fact, I'm doing a couple of all-grain concentrated wort boils this weekend!

Drew Avis, Merrickville, Ontario [694.5km, 56.4] Rennerian



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 11:37:37 -0700
From: "Doug Marion" <mariondoug at hotmail.com>
Subject: Fridge temp

I've used fridges and freezers with controllers on them to ferment
and cold store in. My current fridge is on the fritz. I think I'm going to 
buy an inexpensive fridge new and not use a controller on it and maybe the 
compressor won't go out as fast and will last longer.

My question is, with the fridge thermostat set at the warmest temp
that it can run at, what temperature will most fridges operate at? will it 
operate warm enough (45-50 deg f)to ferment lagers at?
Dealers don't know. I even called GE. They don't know. I just get
"35-45 degrees at the middle setting" and "you have to check it yourself at 
the other settings". How about it fridgguy?

Cheers,
Doug Marion
Meridian Idaho



Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 14:33:10 -0500
From: "Steve Ashton" <sashton at MetLife.com>
Subject: HSOE Dec. 1

PALE ALES Proudly Presents THE HOPPIEST SHOW ON EARTH

December 1, 2001 -- 9:00 AM
River Horse Brewery
80 Lambert Lane
Lambertville, NJ 08530
609-397-7776
Visit paleales.org for mor info or contact:

Competition Organizer:
Judy Cox
E-mail: Judith.cox at edison.k12.nj.us
Phone: 732-393-1080

Judge Coordinator:
Steve Ashton
E-mail: sashton at metlife.com
Phone: 908-253-2617





Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 17:14:01 EST
From: EMT210791 at aol.com
Subject: Catskill Classifieds


Dear Business,

     I would like to take this opportunity to introduce you to the newest 
advertising medium targeted at the Hudson Valley and surrounding areas of New 
York. Catskill Classifieds is a project that has been in the making for ever 
a year now and has recently been completed. This is the latest in Internet 
Marketing and we are projecting a very positive response to it. 

     With this new tool at your hands you can advertise everything from a 
single product or service to listing a small to full sized banner ad. Please 
visit the site at <A HREF="http://www.catskillclassifieds.com">
http://www.catskillclassifieds.com</A> for more information and samples and 
then call when you are ready to make the move to the latest and greatest form 
of Internet Advertising and Marketing.


Thank you

Catskill Classifieds



If you do not wish to receive future mailing please reply to 
webmaster at catskillclassifieds.com with the word REMOVE in the subject line.


Return to table of contents


Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:25:17 +0100
From: "Gregor Zellmann" <gregor at blinx.de>
Subject: Lye, food grade . Situation in Germany

A few subscribers are discussing the use and the quality (food grade/drain
cleaner) of  lye for their German style pretzels.

I was born in Laugenbrezel country (Bavaria), and love the original.

The baker in the little town, where I was born uses sort of pellets which
are dissolved in water to get the lye. I don't know his sources, but they
use protection glasses and rubber gloves, when handling that stuff. So it
must be pretty concentrated.

The Bavarian Laugenbrezel tastes completely different than copies in other
parts of Germany. The reason for this is, that *only in, generally very
traditional, Bavaria* it is allowed to use real lye for the pretzels.
Everywhere else in Germany it is *strictly forbidden* and enforced to do so.
(They closed down a bakery in Berlin for this very reason) So, everywhere
else in "non-Bavaria" they use something else, less "dangerous" for
substitution. But their products don't even come close to the original.

Somebody mentioned to ask in breweries for lye pellets. I think this is a
good idea. They use this stuff all the time to sanitize/clean their
fermentors and stuff. It must be food grade in some way and not contain a
lot of lead, mercury and other potentially dangerous impurities, otherwise
the breweries were not allowed to clean vessels, which contain food
normally. At least in my logic understanding. Nobody would use a dishwasher
detergent at home containing lead.

have a nice weekend - Gut Sud

Gregor Zellmann
Berlin, Germany

[4247.6, 43.4] Apparent Rennerian



Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2001 02:42:17 +0100
From: AJ <ajdel at mindspring.com>
Subject: Hydroxide

The suggestion to look to water treatment chemicals as a source of
hydroxide is a good one. If its clean enough to be used in treating the
water you drink it's good enough to use otherwise. I had meant to post
this suggestion before I went overseas last week but didn't get to it.
What I had in mind was sodium carbonate. I've bought it from the local
Culligan shop. It's almost, but not quite, as alkaline as lye being the
salt of a very strong base (lye) and a weak acid (carbonic). Thus it is
almost, but not quite, as dangerous to handle nor is it deliquescent to
the extent that lye is which makes it easier to measure out.



Return to table of contents

---